Mayo GAA Discussion Part 2

seligehgit

km79 wrote: »

problem with that is we are back to square one
year one of a new manager
in my opinion this team has one big year left in them. next year. the draw is favourable. Roscommon galway getting stronger
it has to be next year
we dont have time for a new inexperienced intercounty manager coming in.......so who does that leave..... dare I say the players may want Horan back?

There's definitely speculation that the players want Horan back,heard as much at the weekend.

Peist2007

PressRun wrote: »

I think the boat was missed with Kevin McStay last year. If the Rossies haven't already sealed the deal, there may be time to rectify that mistake.

This way of thinking is incorrect in my opinion. McStay comes with Liam McHale and, if these players who are used to Buckley training them, suddenly had McHale training them, then there would be a player's meeting much earlier in the year than late September.

seligehgit

jmayo wrote: »

I immediately thought of this thread when I heard the morning sports news.



Right about Horan, but lets not kid ourselves that H&C were a major improvement. They got a lot wrong in the drawn match.
They persisted with A O'Shea basically on his own up front.

Dublin should have gotten a few goals because they ripped open the Mayo defense.
There was a sweeper system in place which was a bloody joke.

At this stage they need an Ulster influence to really make a defensive setup that doesn't leak goals.



Aim low achieve little.
This shyte about they did what was expected or what was required drives me nuts.
Settle for doing ok and that is what you will do.

They took over a team that had gotten to two finals already in past few years and were very unfortunate to lose to eventual champions the year before.
And a big part of that was down to poor management.
In fact they had the addition of a very good player and there were no major injuries to major players this year.

It looks like they never worked on a proper sweeper system all year and it was patently obvious they learned shag all from the drawn match unlike their opposite number.
That is why another year with them would probably be a wasted year.

Couldn't agree more but is James Horan likely to be the man to go down that road??

blinding

Just a Observation; We were blessed on the lack of injuries this year.

I don't think it works if the Players Pick the Manager either. How would the dynamics of that work.

The Players have to respect the Management though.

I suppose its better to Pick a management Team that the Players respect and continue to respect from the start.

I can't think of any circumstances where this sort of a Circus has a good outcome in the short to medium term.

We have a Great team now but The "Guidance" from the Top just is not Good Enough.

TCDStudent1

davegrohl48 wrote: »

Once the management have lost the dressing room that is it they have to resign . But, the specifics of what the issues are have to be laid bare.
I was talking with someone from Corofin club two weeks ago. He said they will do well to hang on to Stephen Rochford, that he is destined for inter county management. Rochford is the obvious person to step in at this point.

It has been obvious for some time that Rochford will one day manage at inter-county level. However, I am not sure now is the right time for him. Corofin are in a county final which they probably will win. They may go on and win Connacht again too. If they do, then Rochford will be involved with Corofin into next year. Not exactly the ideal scenario to be preparing with Mayo. Interestingly, when the Mayo job came up before, many posters on here lamented that Connelly did not have senior inter-county experience. It would be the same with Rochford. In saying that, from what I hear
from the Corofin lads, he is a terrific manager.

I remember listening to an interview with a retired Irish soccer player a few years ago. I cant remember who it was, butI remember him saying that looking back on his career, it would have been bad if he had been able to pick who his manager was. It is a dangerous game to allow players decide on the management, particularly if it is led by a group of more vocal players (no idea if this is the case here, but I could see how this could happen).

It would be fascinating to learn the specific of the player's gripes. From watching Mayo play this year and comparing it to last year, I find it hard to say that Mayo were behind where they were last year. If they werent as good this year as last year, then it is only very marginal. The Dublin team that Mayo lost to this year are a better team than the Kerry team they lost to last year.

davegrohl48

Going back for Horan would not be the thing. His teams leaked goals just like the current team. He displayed way too much loyalty selecting players when Dublin have shown you need to pick players on form.
Some may dismiss Rochford as he has never managed at inter county level but here is the thing.
Of any high level team (All Ireland Club champions is a high level ) Stephen Rochfords training and tactics are the most spot on. He took a Corofin team without even a single inter county star (Michael Lundy is not a star player on the national stage) and won the club championship fairly comfortably. Beating sides like Ballintubber who had several top intercounty players.
Rochford had his squad practicing the match day tactics bringing it into match day, game tactics very similar to Dublins. From talking with a Corofin insider they said he is an absolute modern student of the game. He is most definitely a 2016 level of knowledge on how to win games.
- Defence was locked down they were hard to score goals on
- The counter attack within sometimes 2 kickpasses had the ball in the scoring zone
Is Horan superior to Rochford in terms of forming a season winning game plan, I don't think so. Horan never abandoned the attacking wing backs and never played a sweeper when he had the info on the need for that back in 2012 and 2013. He came in to 2014 with the same tactics, he has had his chance.
Stephen Rochford won't suddenly forget how to manage and coach a team because it is inter county level. If anything it will suit him even more as he can work with a higher standard of player to implement his game plan ... which is a very effective game plan looking at Dublin.

TCDStudent1

davegrohl48 wrote: »

Going back for Horan would not be the thing. His teams leaked goals just like the current team. He displayed way too much loyalty selecting players when Dublin have shown you need to pick players on form.
Rochford has never managed at inter county level but here is the thing.
Of any high level team (All Ireland Club champions is a high level ) Stephen Rochfords training and tactics are the most spot on. He took a Corofin team without even a single inter county star (Michael Lundy is not a star player on the national stage) and won the club championship fairly comfortably. Beating sides like Ballintubber who had several top intercounty players.
Rochford had his squad practicing the match day tactics bringing it into match day, game tactics very similar to Dublins. From talking with a Corofin insider they said he is an absolute modern student of the game. He is most definitely a 2016 level of knowledge on how to win games.
- Defence was locked down they were hard to score goals on
- The counter attack within sometimes 2 kickpasses had the ball in the scoring zone
Is Horan superior to Rochford in terms of forming a season winning game plan, I don't think so. Horan never abandoned the attacking wing backs and never played a sweeper when he had the info on the need for that back in 2012 and 2013. He came in to 2014 with the same tactics, he has had his chance.
Stephen Rochford won't suddenly forget how to manage and coach a team because it is inter county level. If anything it will suit him even more as he can work with a higher standard of player to implement his game plan ... which is a very effective game plan looking at Dublin.

Rochford is a wonderful manager. I have no doubt about that and I have seen Corofin up close many times to understand that. But you are downplaying the talent they have available. If Lundy (or Gary Sice) had been born in Mayo, then you could claim they are "inter-county stars", as they would've starred at a national level. However, there is no question that Rochford's management brought Corofin on a lot.

jmayo

seligehgit wrote: »

There's definitely speculation that the players want Horan back,heard as much at the weekend.

That would be a retrograde step and the players should not have the decision on who managers them.

As someone else said, and I think I heard the same interviewed soccer player talking about managers, there has to be a respect and fear between manager and players.

seligehgit wrote: »

Couldn't agree more but is James Horan likely to be the man to go down that road??

He blew the semi final last year as much as the ref screwed us.
He was incapable of putting in place a solution to deal with Donaghty.
He had made the same mistake years before when dealing with Murphy and it cost an All Ireland.

Why does Mayo persist in bringing back failed managers.
First it was Maughan, then O'Mahony (granted he had won two All Irelands with Galway in meantime) and now it's Horan.
Yes they have all gotten Mayo to finals, but they have also lost them.

And yes they have been great servants of Mayo football much like one can say Holmes and Connelly have been.
But Mayo don't need servants, they need leaders.

davegrohl48

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

Rochford is a wonderful manager. I have no doubt about that and I have seen Corofin up close many times to understand that. But you are downplaying the talent they have available. If Lundy (or Gary Sice) had been born in Mayo, then you could claim they are "inter-county stars", as they would've starred at a national level. However, there is no question that Rochford's management brought Corofin on a lot.

A fair point on Gary Sice, I would consider him a quality player. If he was in the Mayo setup you are right he would have a bigger reputation.
The point still stands though, Corofin were not overblessed with panel depth to win the All Ireland club championship on a whole fairly comfortably.
It was their brilliant execution of their gameplan which was their biggest weapon I think is commonly accepted. Leading to my main point that Rochfords tactics and coaching improved his squad to a large degree.

ultrapercy

For me the decision to play Vaughan, who was obviously unfit to play, was enough to warrant a sacking. It was obvious to me when the injury happened that he was out for a while and the decision to play him was amazing. Everyone has their own opinion on selection and tactics but playing an injured man is unforgivable imo.

Coillte_Bhoy

Why is McGuinness continually being mentioned? Where are those rumours coming from? I cant see him leaving Celtic anytime soon

blinding

ultrapercy wrote: »

For me the decision to play Vaughan, who was obviously unfit to play, was enough to warrant a sacking. It was obvious to me when the injury happened that he was out for a while and the decision to play him was amazing. Everyone has their own opinion on selection and tactics but playing an injured man is unforgivable imo.

You could hardly sack a management team on one decision even though it was a shocker. Vaughan probably should have put his hand up(;) and said he was not fit.

You can't have people picking their Boss. That would be Mad Stuff:eek:

Where do we go from here. :eek:

Fr Tod Umptious

The idea of bringing back Horan now would be mad, a few years down the line sure but not now.

Not only do we need a manager with the tactical brain to deal with each opponent we also need players who will step up and use their own brains on the big day.

In the absence of anyone else this Rochford guy looks a decent shout, young (I assume), final winning experience, new ideas etc.

But as another poster implied this may be the last throw of the dice for some, and since the draw is favourable we cannot afford a year of starting from scratch.

By the way great news about McStay and Roscommon, the further McHale is from the Mayo setup the better.

MayoForSam

I saw Corofin hardly break a sweat on Sunday to win their county semi very easily in Tuam stadium, they got their goals at just the right time, very simple, straight through the middle for both of them. Their defense was very well organized and they freshened things up in the second half by bringing on 4 or 5 subs.

Rochford would an excellent contender for the Mayo job, but the timing could be better. I would prefer to see someone with some new ideas coming along rather than turning back the clock to the likes of Horan. There is one more opportunity next year for this present group of players, but the sideline decision making will need to be spot on.

davegrohl48

ultrapercy wrote: »

For me the decision to play Vaughan, who was obviously unfit to play, was enough to warrant a sacking. It was obvious to me when the injury happened that he was out for a while and the decision to play him was amazing. Everyone has their own opinion on selection and tactics but playing an injured man is unforgivable imo.

It was said he passed a fitness test. The extremely obvious test was to kick ten balls into the corner and have someone abrasive like Jason Doherty drive at Vaughan to see how his tackling was. From the very first ball against Paddy Andrews you could see he couldn't tackle. I'v popped both AC joints and you can take a shoulder on it after it settles down, in no way though are you comfortable tackling people, you may be able to do a tackling action but the joint will not stand up to the impact of the forward running at you or when they push away your tackle especially. When you have your arm raised tackling or catching a ball the joint is very vulnerable to even slight contact. Remember how minimal the contact was on Cillian versus Tyrone when he was catching that ball few years ago. We are not that short on squad depth that we should ever really be risking players with an AC joint injury. Especially such a common injury that is fairly well understood in terms of how it can re-occur and what it prevents you doing, namely tackling and contesting balls in the air.

robbiezero

martyos121 wrote: »

I just don't think the players know what the situation will be like if Holmes and Connelly are sent packing. They obviously have a major issue with them, and yeah they will get their way, but who replaces them? Who could actually bring us back to the All Ireland final in a year where the draw could be favourable to us? Horan had his chance, he did a good job, but I saw actuall progression under H&C (they got things wrong in the replay, but Dublin just went into another gear and the player were wrecked, it wasn't just their fault). Tired of seeing us take one step forward and two back. We'll win no All Ireland titles with Horan and his laissez-faire attitude towards defending.

Did they get things wrong in the drawn game also?
Just that the players threw caution to the wind in the last ten minutes and went back to their old style under Horan of running at pace from deep

ProudDUB

Surprised to see so much talk on here about Horan coming back. Has he said that he is willing to take the job on again?

Defiler Of The Coffin

ProudDUB wrote: »

Surprised to see so much talk on here about Horan coming back. Has he said that he is willing to take the job on again?

He hasn't. I can't see him going back so soon, not with young kids, senior position with Coke and his gig as a media pundit. Stranger things have happened, and I would certainly welcome him back at a later stage but it wouldn't be the right move for him or for Mayo at this point in time. Along with the talk about McGuinness it's wishful thinking for some.

MfMan

davegrohl48 wrote: »

A fair point on Gary Sice, I would consider him a quality player. If he was in the Mayo setup you are right he would have a bigger reputation.
The point still stands though, Corofin were not overblessed with panel depth to win the All Ireland club championship on a whole fairly comfortably.
It was their brilliant execution of their gameplan which was their biggest weapon I think is commonly accepted. Leading to my main point that Rochfords tactics and coaching improved his squad to a large degree.

Have to totally disagree. Rochford undoubtedly has great managerial merits but Corofin's team and panel last year was one of the strongest ever to emerge in a Galway club (and indeed in any club for many's a year). An almost perfect blend of youth, experience, pace, incision, scoring ability, defensive solidity etc. Had men of county or county-standard calibre in every line. Dismissed with almost nonchalant ease every side they met last year.

As for Mayo's current woes, it's "damned if you do, damned if you don't". I don't think the mgmt. team that's there are good enough to win Sam, their tactical deficiencies were shown up at the top level, in fairness both days v Dublin. Equally though, the team's problems came to light also; Higgins and Boyle have gone back in a year, FB line was never fully settled or tight enough, even Galway showed that up. Forwards such as McLoughlin and Doherty don't hurt teams enough with scores. Even great warrior that he is, Aodan O'Se struggled with the pace in the later stages v Dublin and showed that his influence could be neutralised by proper planning.

Sadly, I really think Mayo's ship has sailed for the moment; last year was maybe the most one that got away. They came within a kick of a ball of beating Dublin in the drawn match in August but I do think Kerry this year, like Dublin, would have had too much striking power for them in a final. The mgmt. team may need to be changed, or modified, but long-term, without an influx of 3-4 'ready-to-go' players I don't think it will make any difference. Mayo will still be a top-5 team for the next few seasons at least but as they stand at present they simply aren't good enough to get across the line. All IMHO of course.

Shurimgreat

davegrohl48 wrote: »

Rochford has never managed at inter county level but here is the thing.

This is utterly irrelevant. Neither had Jim Gavin, Jim McGuinness, Eamon Fitzmaurice, Kevin Heffernan, Mick O'Dwyer, Sean Boylan, Billy Morgan, James Horan, Mickey Harte and virtually every successful manager in the history of the game.

Pat Holmes on the other hand had plenty of inter county management experience.

When I hear this "never managed at intercounty" line thrown out, it's very annoying. Its irrelevant. To win a club All-Ireland is extremely tough, up there in terms of achievement with an inter-county All-Ireland.

johnb25

Does the fact that the team has mutinied, and turned on the current management, make them a less attractive proposition to any incoming manager? Could they be seen as unmanageable?

davegrohl48

MfMan wrote: »

Have to totally disagree. Rochford undoubtedly has great managerial merits but Corofin's team and panel last year was one of the strongest ever to emerge in a Galway club (and indeed in any club for many's a year). An almost perfect blend of youth, experience, pace, incision, scoring ability, defensive solidity etc. Had men of county or county-standard calibre in every line. Dismissed with almost nonchalant ease every side they met last year.

As for Mayo's current woes, it's "damned if you do, damned if you don't". I don't think the mgmt. team that's there are good enough to win Sam, their tactical deficiencies were shown up at the top level, in fairness both days v Dublin. Equally though, the team's problems came to light also; Higgins and Boyle have gone back in a year, FB line was never fully settled or tight enough, even Galway showed that up. Forwards such as McLoughlin and Doherty don't hurt teams enough with scores. Even great warrior that he is, Aodan O'Se struggled with the pace in the later stages v Dublin and showed that his influence could be neutralised by proper planning.

Sadly, I really think Mayo's ship has sailed for the moment; last year was maybe the most one that got away. They came within a kick of a ball of beating Dublin in the drawn match in August but I do think Kerry this year, like Dublin, would have had too much striking power for them in a final. The mgmt. team may need to be changed, or modified, but long-term, without an influx of 3-4 'ready-to-go' players I don't think it will make any difference. Mayo will still be a top-5 team for the next few seasons at least but as they stand at present they simply aren't good enough to get across the line. All IMHO of course.

I don't think we are too far apart in our point of views.
- They had wasn't it two county panellists. Lundy and Sice? This is from top of me head now. Burke was in there before but is hurling now only I understand. Lundy is okay at county level, Sice is a good player at county level.
- Kieran Fitzgerald getting on in years
Put that all together, yes they can win a club title, very suprising that they did it so comfortable. Winning the club title comfortable you would think they'd have what, maybe at least 5 county panellists with three starting?
How did they manage to win the club title so comfortably is the point I am getting at. Outstanding teamwork and preparation I believe is the answer. Of course yes the players are competitive, but by no means could you just rely on talent with the squad they had. Hence my point that Rochford added immensely to Corofins season by improving the teamwork and preparations of the squad.

davegrohl48

Shurimgreat wrote: »

This is utterly irrelevant. Neither had Jim Gavin, Jim McGuinness, Eamon Fitzmaurice, Kevin Heffernan, Mick O'Dwyer, Sean Boylan, Billy Morgan, James Horan, Mickey Harte and virtually every successful manager in the history of the game.

Pat Holmes on the other hand had plenty of inter county management experience.

When I hear this "never managed at intercounty" line thrown out, it's very annoying. Its irrelevant. To win a club All-Ireland is extremely tough, up there in terms of achievement with an inter-county All-Ireland.

Quoting me out of context there, have edited original post to make clearer. I only included that line about Rochford never managing at county level as it always gets brought up by others to dismiss the idea of club managers. I'm an advocate that Rochford should get the Mayo position. I think club management can prove or disprove a managers abilities to improve his squad and get a game plan in place. Personally I don't dismiss someones credentials just because it is club.

Defiler Of The Coffin

km79 wrote: »

problem with that is we are back to square one
year one of a new manager
in my opinion this team has one big year left in them. next year. the draw is favourable. Roscommon galway getting stronger
it has to be next year
we dont have time for a new inexperienced intercounty manager coming in.......so who does that leave..... dare I say the players may want Horan back?

I don't buy this at all. We were saying the same things last year.

I just don't think we're currently as good as some of our fans think we are. The team needs major surgery and any new management team must be given time to undertake it.

On a better day in Limerick (and in the drawn game) we would have beaten Kerry. In a final against Donegal we would have been in a very strong position to win. At the end of last year I (and plenty others) were saying that the team needed tweaking, some new tactics, a couple of new players to give us that extra few percent to get us over the line. Basically that's what Noel and Pat provided and it wasn't enough.

IMO this team's best chance of winning Sam was in 2013 when we were playing the best football I've ever seen Mayo play. It was there for the taking and we didn't do it. For me that's the one that hurts the most.

Realistically I don't think we've progressed since. Dublin and Kerry have improved in the meantime and we haven't kept up. Certainly we are not at the level of Dublin. Kerry we could arguably challenge but unless we beat them in the championship I won't be convinced.

Ruthlessness is needed here. Whoever is in place next year needs to drop the passengers and bring in the Byrnes, Fordes, Loftuses, whoever is showing promise and blood them. We need new tactics and a proper defensive plan. That's what got Donegal over the line. They didn't have the depth of other counties but tactically they were way ahead. We've produced good footballers over the years but tactically we've been behind the curve and it's cost us All-Irelands. It needs to be remedied but it can't just be a one-year project. We can't bring in a new manager and expect them to win Sam in the first year. Top team or not it's just far too much to expect for a county that has won just one senior title since 1971.

So if the current management team has lost the dressing room then fair enough, it's probably best for everyone that they go. But lets not have another damaging shambles of a selection process. Everyone needs to row in behind the person who gets the job, and give them the time and space to work on the team.

Shurimgreat

davegrohl48 wrote: »

Quoting me out of context there, have edited original post to make clearer. I only included that line about Rochford never managing at county level as it always gets brought up by others to dismiss the idea of club managers. I'm an advocate that Rochford should get the Mayo position. I think club management can prove or disprove a managers abilities to improve his squad and get a game plan in place. Personally I don't dismiss someones credentials just because it is club.

Fair enough. I just get irritated when other people mention it. The top 4 or 5 modern inter county managers didn't have intercounty experience before getting the job. Most of the older managers who have plenty of experience are old and out of touch with the modern demands of the game. At this stage I'd always give the job to someone without intercounty experience. They'd have more hunger and desire too.

Ascii

I can’t understand how the management team that brought all Ireland success to Mayo in 2006 with probably 13 of these players can find themselves to be hated (by the same bunch of players more or less) after less than a year. I was never a fan of two managers but I felt on past merit they deserved a couple of years and I stand over than however if the players don't want them then it hard to see a future for the current setup.


I am not a fan of players dictating who the management team are and who should or should not be in charge. While they should have a say, totally taking over the reins and giving them too much power is a recipe for disaster.


As for the papers blowing it up into a huge event on the front pages describing it a crisis is laughable.


Happy for McStay and co, whether it was a mistake or not that mayo didn’t take him is another story. By us offering him a position now or trying to get him at last minute would be disastrous. He needs to earn his salt with Roscommon at inter county level. I think it will do Connaught football the world of good if we get another team to the fore. Mayo will ultimately benefit more from stronger competition at provincial level particularly if the rossies step up a gear and galway come on a bit next year.


Unsure about all this talk of Rochford and Mcguinness. Jim won’t leave sky and Celtic unless he gets crazy money and Rochford could do with another season at club intercounty level… If he can pull of the back to back with Corofin it will be a real test of his credentials. +1 on what another poster said about the Corofin team. They have a serious squad and could easily field three teams…they are the largest parish in County Galway.


The one manager I would love to see but he is probably too far away for it to work and has recently been appointed to the under 21 in Kerry is Jack O Connor. Will be interesting to see what develops over the next few days. All you would fear now is that Donie will pack his bags and high tail it out of here also.

TCDStudent1

davegrohl48 wrote: »

I don't think we are too far apart in our point of views.
- They had wasn't it two county panellists. Lundy and Sice? This is from top of me head now. Burke was in there before but is hurling now only I understand. Lundy is okay at county level, Sice is a good player at county level.
- Kieran Fitzgerald getting on in years
Put that all together, yes they can win a club title, very suprising that they did it so comfortable. Winning the club title comfortable you would think they'd have what, maybe at least 5 county panellists with three starting?
How did they manage to win the club title so comfortably is the point I am getting at. Outstanding teamwork and preparation I believe is the answer. Of course yes the players are competitive, but by no means could you just rely on talent with the squad they had. Hence my point that Rochford added immensely to Corofins season by improving the teamwork and preparations of the squad.

Sice, Lundy, Liam Silke were starting for Galway this year.
They also had Ronan Steede, a sub for Galway throughout this year's championship.
Ian Burke was called into the Galway panel this year & then left (of his own accord).
Along with: Fitzgerald (AI winner), Kieran McGrath / Alan Burke have both been on Galway championship teams in the past few years. Michael Farragher has also started a championship match for Galway in the last couple of years. Greg Higgins is another who has played for Galway in recent years.
Further to that, they have a host of under-age county players (current & former). It is a serious pool of talent for any club to be working with.

In saying all that, Rochford still had to turn them into AI winners, and he did a great job of that. I know a fair few of those Corofin lads and know they rate him highly. But you should not under-estimate the talent he has available to him there, and I think you are doing just that!!

robbiezero

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

Sice, Lundy, Liam Silke were starting for Galway this year.
They also had Ronan Steede, a sub for Galway throughout this year's championship.
Ian Burke was called into the Galway panel this year & then left (of his own accord).
Along with: Fitzgerald (AI winner), Kieran McGrath / Alan Burke have both been on Galway championship teams in the past few years. Michael Farragher has also started a championship match for Galway in the last couple of years. Greg Higgins is another who has played for Galway in recent years.
Further to that, they have a host of under-age county players (current & former). It is a serious pool of talent for any club to be working with.

In saying all that, Rochford still had to turn them into AI winners, and he did a great job of that. I know a fair few of those Corofin lads and know they rate him highly. But you should not under-estimate the talent he has available to him there, and I think you are doing just that!!

Good post. Didn't realise they had so many that were there or thereabouts at inter-county.

davegrohl48

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

Sice, Lundy, Liam Silke were starting for Galway this year.
They also had Ronan Steede, a sub for Galway throughout this year's championship.
Ian Burke was called into the Galway panel this year & then left (of his own accord).
Along with: Fitzgerald (AI winner), Kieran McGrath / Alan Burke have both been on Galway championship teams in the past few years. Michael Farragher has also started a championship match for Galway in the last couple of years. Greg Higgins is another who has played for Galway in recent years.
Further to that, they have a host of under-age county players (current & former). It is a serious pool of talent for any club to be working with.

In saying all that, Rochford still had to turn them into AI winners, and he did a great job of that. I know a fair few of those Corofin lads and know they rate him highly. But you should not under-estimate the talent he has available to him there, and I think you are doing just that!!

Okay you make a good few points that there is plenty inter county experience in there.

Shurimgreat

I think Holmes and Connelly were badly shown up in both Dublin games. They were simply naïve. A number of bizarre decisions - still don't understand why Barry Moran was taken off when he was dominating around the middle and Mayo were holding their own. Once he went off Dublin took over and scored quick goals to kill off the game. Also the unwillingness to challenge Cluxtons kickouts which allowed Dublin dictate both games on their terms. Leaving AOS at full forward when it was clear he was making no headway. And a refusal to take off some players who were to put it mildly awful. They showed no ruthlessness when it counted. I doubt McStay would have made any of these mistakes or any competent manager. When it really mattered Holmes/Connelly were found wanting. Better to change now than waste another 2 years with the same mediocre management.

Fr Tod Umptious

Shurimgreat wrote: »

I think Holmes and Connelly were badly shown up in both Dublin games. They were simply naïve. A number of bizarre decisions - still don't understand why Barry Moran was taken off when he was dominating around the middle and Mayo were holding their own. Once he went off Dublin took over and scored quick goals to kill off the game. Also the unwillingness to challenge Cluxtons kickouts which allowed Dublin dictate both games on their terms. Leaving AOS at full forward when it was clear he was making no headway. And a refusal to take off some players who were to put it mildly awful. They showed no ruthlessness when it counted. I doubt McStay would have made any of these mistakes or any competent manager. When it really mattered Holmes/Connelly were found wanting. Better to change now than waste another 2 years with the same mediocre management.

Would McStay have made sure the Mayo forwards did not miss si many scoring chances in the second half of the drawn game ?

Would McStay have stopped SOS from getting a needless black card ?

As I have said through this saga, if players are going to revolt they sure as hell better come back stronger next year and prove to us all it was management and not them that was the problem.

blinding

Ascii wrote: »

I can’t understand how the management team that brought all Ireland success to Mayo in 2006 with probably 13 of these players can find themselves to be hated (by the same bunch of players more or less) after less than a year. I was never a fan of two managers but I felt on past merit they deserved a couple of years and I stand over than however if the players don't want them then it hard to see a future for the current setup.


I am not a fan of players dictating who the management team are and who should or should not be in charge. While they should have a say, totally taking over the reins and giving them too much power is a recipe for disaster.


As for the papers blowing it up into a huge event on the front pages describing it a crisis is laughable.


Happy for McStay and co, whether it was a mistake or not that mayo didn’t take him is another story. By us offering him a position now or trying to get him at last minute would be disastrous. He needs to earn his salt with Roscommon at inter county level. I think it will do Connaught football the world of good if we get another team to the fore. Mayo will ultimately benefit more from stronger competition at provincial level particularly if the rossies step up a gear and galway come on a bit next year.


Unsure about all this talk of Rochford and Mcguinness. Jim won’t leave sky and Celtic unless he gets crazy money and Rochford could do with another season at club intercounty level… If he can pull of the back to back with Corofin it will be a real test of his credentials. +1 on what another poster said about the Corofin team. They have a serious squad and could easily field three teams…they are the largest parish in County Galway.


The one manager I would love to see but he is probably too far away for it to work and has recently been appointed to the under 21 in Kerry is Jack O Connor. Will be interesting to see what develops over the next few days. All you would fear now is that Donie will pack his bags and high tail it out of here also.

If Mayo could get Jack O'Connor I would be willing to carry him on my Shoulders all the way from Kerry. He would be as good as you could get.

Fr Tod Umptious

blinding wrote: »

If Mayo could get Jack O'Connor I would be willing to carry him on my Shoulders all the way from Kerry. He would be as good as you could get.

Problem is Javck does not take over teams that he does not think he can win an All Ireland with !

blinding

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Problem is Javck does not take over teams that he does not think he can win an All Ireland with !

Mayo were the 3rd best team this year possibly the 2nd (Certainly better than Kerry in the Final).That leaves managing Dublin;Unlikely and no vacancy.

With a possibly (?)good draw and with this team I think a manager that rated himself would be willing to give it a go. There may be loads of other reasons why Jacj O'Connor or others would not want the job.

blinding

bob skunkhouse wrote: »

Unsure about all this talk of Rochford and Mcguinness. Jim won’t leave sky and Celtic unless he gets crazy money

I have it on good authority from a man in Glenties, the next managerial job for JMCG is Celtic's first team.

Is that Celtic competing for the All-Ireland.;)

I will believe it when I see it.

bob skunkhouse

Ascii wrote: »

Unsure about all this talk of Rochford and Mcguinness. Jim won’t leave sky and Celtic unless he gets crazy money

I have it on good authority from a man in Glenties, the next managerial job for JMCG is Celtic's first team.

martyos121

Let's be real here; there is absolutely no chance our CB would even contemplate going after Jack O'Connor.

It will be either Horan (please God no) or a relatively unproven manager at inter-county level, like Rochford.

If we're going into the territory of selecting a big-time manager the calibre of the likes of Jack O'Connor, Jimmy is the one I'd choose all day long.

Utopia Parkway

martyos121 wrote: »

Let's be real here; there is absolutely no chance our CB would even contemplate going after Jack O'Connor.

I imagine O'Connor would have his eyes on the Kerry senior job again in a few years time. Do a stint with the U-21's and he will have coached most of those lads at minor and U-21 by the time they are breaking through at senior.

Shurimgreat

I'd actually like to see Donie Buckley given the job. From what I can see, he has been the real brains and key behind Mayo's success the last 5 years. He's turned them into a formidable team, tackling, turning over the ball and so on. He must get really frustrated to see mismanagement and poor decisions on the day of big games. He could be a good choice. The guy is clearly talented, far more so than other names thrown about.

Utopia Parkway

Shurimgreat wrote: »

I'd actually like to see Donie Buckley given the job. From what I can see, he has been the real brains and key behind Mayo's success the last 5 years. He's turned them into a formidable team, tackling, turning over the ball and so on. He must get really frustrated to see mismanagement and poor decisions on the day of big games. He could be a good choice. The guy is clearly talented, far more so than other names thrown about.

Talented and what he does undoubtedly but there is a difference between coaching and management. He might be good at one but not so good at the other.

ProudDUB

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Would McStay have made sure the Mayo forwards did not miss si many scoring chances in the second half of the drawn game ?

Would McStay have stopped SOS from getting a needless black card ?

As I have said through this saga, if players are going to revolt they sure as hell better come back stronger next year and prove to us all it was management and not them that was the problem.

+1

In their first year in charge, Holmes & Connolly took the eventual AI champions to a replay in the semifinal & the beat last years finalist. That is better than Eamon Fitzmaurice did in his first year in charge. When you look at all the AI medals that EF has, his players have, as well as the deep well of AI winning tradition, history and experience he had to draw on in Kerry, that is still good going, no?

Holmes & Connolly had none of that, yet they still did better than him, in their first year. I know that mistakes were made & the manner of their appointment was controversial, but it was still their first year. Does that not count for anything? What managers ever win the AI in their first year? Jim Gavin was the exception, not the rule.

jmayo

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Would McStay have made sure the Mayo forwards did not miss si many scoring chances in the second half of the drawn game ?

Would McStay have stopped SOS from getting a needless black card ?

As I have said through this saga, if players are going to revolt they sure as hell better come back stronger next year and prove to us all it was management and not them that was the problem.

No he couldn't have prevented any of those, but then again would he have left AOS stuck in at full forward surrounded by 3 dubs with useless aimless balls being pumped into him ?
Would he have played Donie Vaughan with a serious injury ?
Would he have left the team with no midfield ?
Would he have left some players on who were missing the shots ?

Would he have prepared a proper sweeper system and not some half hazard idea that was torn apart by the dubs in the first match ?

Would he have a plan to put pressure on all of cluxtons kick outs and not the odd few ?

The answer is we don't know, but those are some of the errors the two boys made that cost the game as much as the horrible misses or the black card.

Much like the year before where Horan couldn't come up with a plan to handle donaghy, even though Stevie Wonder could see something needed to be done.

I do agree that come what may the players will have to deliver next year now that they have raised the stakes.
You can't bitch and moan about management and then not deliver themselves.

Shurimgreat

ProudDUB wrote: »

+1

In their first year in charge, Holmes & Connolly took the eventual AI champions to a replay in the semifinal & the beat last years finalist. That is better than Eamon Fitzmaurice did in his first year in charge. When you look at all the AI medals that EF has, his players have, as well as the deep well of AI winning tradition, history and experience he had to draw on in Kerry, that is still good going, no?

Holmes & Connolly had none of that, yet they still did better than him, in their first year. I know that mistakes were made & the manner of their appointment was controversial, but it was still their first year. Does that not count for anything? What managers ever win the AI in their first year? Jim Gavin was the exception, not the rule.

But they showed they were clueless when it counted. The same old mistakes cropping up. Taking off performing players, and leaving on non performing players as an instance.

Jim McGuinness and Eamon Fitmaurice mightn't have won AIs in their first year or two (Mcguinness) but at least you could see a definite improvement. Both managers ultimately brought teams through to AI victories from a relatively low starting point.

I'm with the players on this one. If they don't think the management is good enough than clearly they have a point.

Fr Tod Umptious

The narrative about Mayo this year has been amazing.

One week Horan is the biggest goat in the land for not playing AOS at FF

The next week H+C are tactical genisus for developing a defensive system around Barry Moran.

The next week they are tactical idiots and AOS is not a full forward.

davegrohl48

Yet to see the evidence Buckley is a top coach of attacking play unlike Rochford.

ColeTrain

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

The narrative about Mayo this year has been amazing.

One week Horan is the biggest goat in the land for not playing AOS at FF

The next week H+C are tactical genisus for developing a defensive system around Barry Moran.

The next week they are tactical idiots and AOS is not a full forward.

That's just hyperbole Tod, who ever said H&C were tactical geniuses and that AOS isn't a full forward?

AOS at full forward was a success but you have to able to adapt and Holmes and Connolly clearly didn't when it was obvious early doors during the replay, that it wasn't going to work - never mind the fact it didn't work the first day out.

Just like James Horan, they made costly errors. Now, that's good and well but when the players vote they want someone else to lead them next season, coupled with the mistakes, alarm bells have to start ringing.

Let's just hope for once, that the County Board facilitate their wish and get the best possible candidate - not a half arsed appointment.

Stoner

To me, on the outside looking in. The lack of tactical changes adopted between the Dublin games this year would not have happened under Horan. He was slow on the line to spot a few things in the closing stages of 2013 in the heat of battle, but he'd have been all over those issues if he had a week imho.

jmayo

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

The narrative about Mayo this year has been amazing.

One week Horan is the biggest goat in the land for not playing AOS at FF

The next week H+C are tactical genisus for developing a defensive system around Barry Moran.

The next week they are tactical idiots and AOS is not a full forward.

Barry Moran was perfect for the job he did with Murphy and the same would have probably worked with Donaghy.
The thing is Dublin have a different type of attack and it needed a different solution.
What may work against some teams will not work against others.

The key to winning nowadays is adaptability and a strong defensive system.
Also a good manager has the ability to change things around when the ubiquitous Plan A is no longer functioning.
Sadly for too long, with all our recent managers, we have either just had plan A or else thought we could outscore some very good teams paying no heed to shipping soft goals.

You need to be a very good team to impose your own way without minding what the opposition are doing.
Kerry have discovered that they needed to adapt and it worked last year.

Stoner wrote: »

To me, on the outside looking in. The lack of tactical changes adopted between the Dublin games this year would not have happened under Horan. He was slow on the line to spot a few things in the closing stages of 2013 in the heat of battle, but he'd have been all over those issues if he had a week imho.

Actually I think Horan made the same mistakes last year with regard Donaghy.
He didn't learn from the first match either.

davegrohl48

Stoner wrote: »

To me, on the outside looking in. The lack of tactical changes adopted between the Dublin games this year would not have happened under Horan. He was slow on the line to spot a few things in the closing stages of 2013 in the heat of battle, but he'd have been all over those issues if he had a week imho.

He had a week for Kieran Donaghy in 2014 and failed that test. Similar James ODonoghue.

SeanJ09

Jesus this is a mess. Massive pressure on the players to deliver next year if they manage to oust Connelly and Holmes. If they do, the choice for me, as a few other posters have indicated, is Jack O Connor. I think he could finally drag us over the line. I would be surprised if he was interested though, seems like a Kerryman through and through and would have no interest of involvement in Mayo Gaa rather than his native Kerry.