Mayo GAA Discussion Part 2

naughto

The Mayo secretary Vincent Neary on OffTheBall on NewsTalk at 7.30 to give the county board's perspective on the future of Holmes& Connelly

Fr Tod Umptious

SeanJ09 wrote: »

Jesus this is a mess. Massive pressure on the players to deliver next year if they manage to oust Connelly and Holmes. If they do, the choice for me, as a few other posters have indicated, is Jack O Connor. I think he could finally drag us over the line. I would be surprised if he was interested though, seems like a Kerryman through and through and would have no interest of involvement in Mayo Gaa rather than his native Kerry.

He was ratified as Kerry U 21 manager last night.

So lets drop him, McGuinness, McStay and Horan and start talking about real candidates.

PressRun

Vincent Neary talking garbage on Newstalk right now.

blinding

PressRun wrote: »

Vincent Neary talking garbage on Newstalk right now.

Poor performance from him alright.

Those uppity players making life difficult for the important people like the County Board.

When he certainly gave the impression he had no idea how the relationship between players and management has been going on.

That County Board don't deserve the group of players that Mayo have now.

Fr Tod Umptious

Shurimgreat wrote: »

I'd actually like to see Donie Buckley given the job. From what I can see, he has been the real brains and key behind Mayo's success the last 5 years. He's turned them into a formidable team, tackling, turning over the ball and so on. He must get really frustrated to see mismanagement and poor decisions on the day of big games. He could be a good choice. The guy is clearly talented, far more so than other names thrown about.

Rumor has always been that Jack got rid of him in Kerry cos he was too close to the players.

Who knows he could be close to these guys too.

Has he ever managed a team or has he just been a coach ?

PressRun

He pretty much just undermined the players by acting like he had no idea about any unrest and that the players had just sprung this on the county board. Half the bloody country knew there was unrest.

davegrohl48

The players liaison officer is Mike Connelly... Noel Connellys brother. Thats a ridiculous situation. It was stated in the Newstalk interview by Vincent Neary.

TCDStudent1

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

He was ratified as Kerry U 21 manager last night.

So lets drop him, McGuinness, McStay and Horan and start talking about real candidates.

Why would you not include horan as a real candidate? 6/4 on paddypower!

Fr Tod Umptious

PressRun wrote: »

He pretty much just undermined the players by acting like he had no idea about any unrest and that the players had just sprung this on the county board. Half the bloody country knew there was unrest.

But only in the last few weeks

There was no talk of unrest all summer.

I said it before and I'll say it again, the players better damn sure know what they are doing here, and I hope they come out on the right side of it, otherwise they will be completed fools, just like the '92/'93 crowd

Fr Tod Umptious

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

Why would you not include horan as a real candidate? 6/4 on paddypower!

Too soon.

He has ridiculed here not that long ago for his tactical ineptitude, what would have changed in a year.

In the future yes, but not now

Defiler Of The Coffin

Nothing interesting from Neary. No light shed on the matter. Very disappointed that the players didn't 'follow the process' and seemed genuinely taken aback that the players had taken this approach. Taking that and last week's article from the Mayo News (http://www.mayonews.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=22784:mayo-gaa-board-secretary-scotches-rumours-of-discontent&catid=14&Itemid=100008) it's fair to say they haven't much of a relationship with the players, despite what he says. Perhaps having Mike Connelly as liaison officer wasn't such a good appointment? No reflection on the man himself as I know for a fact he's a professional but who would be comfortable bringing this to a brother of one of the management team?

A good point made by BJP afterwards, the players want Sam sooner rather than later and if they don't think the management team are the ones to guide them then it's their prerogative to instigate change.

Whether this should have been done in a more discreet manner I don't know but the cat is well and truly out of the bag.

Gael85

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Rumor has always been that Jack got rid of him in Kerry cos he was too close to the players.

Who knows he could be close to these guys too.

Has he ever managed a team or has he just been a coach ?

Buckley managed Clare around 06

Fr Tod Umptious

Gael85 wrote: »

Buckley managed Clare around 06

There ya go, the much vaunted "inter county experience"

Join me in welcoming Buckley as our new manager

PressRun

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

But only in the last few weeks

There was no talk of unrest all summer.

I said it before and I'll say it again, the players better damn sure know what they are doing here, and I hope they come out on the right side of it, otherwise they will be completed fools, just like the '92/'93 crowd

I heard about unrest back during the league, and I wasn't even living in the country at the time.

Frankly, listening to Vincent Neary there was nauseating. It's this typical GAA attitude that players should stay quiet and get on with it and stop rocking the boat. People up on high in the GAA don't like being challenged by players and that's why the Cork Co Board undermined their players too. The players are the ones who make the sacrifices and put in a huge amount of time and effort, and they do it all for nothing. For Vincent Neary to then go on national radio and essentially say they're being 'uppity' is bad form, tbh.

Blue Magic

A few people mentioned McStay but he's gone to Roscommon setup has he not?!

I think McGuiness & Buckley are the main candidates. But if its a case of players looking to get rid of other two simply causd they'd prefer Buckley without any real issue its disgraceful behaviour from them. You'd swear they weren't the biggest bottlers in Irish Sport!!

Defiler Of The Coffin

Blue Magic wrote: »

You'd swear they weren't the biggest bottlers in Irish Sport!!

They aren't. Please don't start this nonsense.

downthemiddle

Blue Magic wrote: »

A few people mentioned McStay but he's gone to Roscommon setup has he not?!

I think McGuiness & Buckley are the main candidates. But if its a case of players looking to get rid of other two simply causd they'd prefer Buckley without any real issue its disgraceful behaviour from them. You'd swear they weren't the biggest bottlers in Irish Sport!!

There isn't a snowballs chance in hell that Jim will take on the Mayo job at this moment in time and anyone who thinks otherwise is delusional.

blinding

I would be very concerned that this is the beginning of the End of this Great Mayo Team.

I suppose it was going to happen some day but How can Humpty Dumpty be put back together again.

McStay is going to Roscommon……..

WE need Somebody from outside the County that won't take Bulls**t from the County Board or Players.

But

Are the Players or County board going to accept such a Person.

The Players Probably would but The Mayo County Board don't want anyone that they can't keep under the Thumb.

Blue Magic

Defiler Of The Coffin wrote: »

They aren't. Please don't start this nonsense.

On what basis aren't they? Their unrivalled ability to be ruthless & put teams away when it matters in headquarters...

Mayo's biggest problem is mental weakness of players & anyone who can't see that is delusional.

seligehgit

Decent article by Malachy Clerkin

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/malachy-clerkin-mayo-players-heave-against-management-well-signposted-1.2371796

PressRun

blinding wrote: »

I would be very concerned that this is the beginning of the End of this Great Mayo Team.

I suppose it was going to happen some day but How can Humpty Dumpty be put back together again.

McStay is going to Roscommon……..

WE need Somebody from outside the County that won't take Bulls**t from the County Board or Players.

But

Are the Players or County board going to accept such a Person.

The Players Probably would but The Mayo County Board don't want anyone that they can't keep under the Thumb.

The biggest problem is the Mayo Co. Board, imo. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they go against the players on this, which would potentially trigger a serious unravelling. Frankly, the appointment stank from the beginning, and there's been a serious conflict of interest from the get-go which is going to complicate things further as the plot thickens.

blinding

If this was a Professional soccer team I would say change the management team and Some of the Players.

But this is GAA (County Level) so its not as if you can go out and buy the same quality or better players.

There is no way this management team are going to hold the confidence of a Mayo dressing room in the near future. So, The Management team will have to go.

Anyway if its get sorted out in the short term it will take a miracle.

wirelessdude01

Lad I work with who is involved in the backroom team with an intercounty setup said to me this morning what were they thinking having the brother as the liaison officer. Just said it stank of amateur.

Coillte_Bhoy

seligehgit wrote: »

Decent article by Malachy Clerkin

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/malachy-clerkin-mayo-players-heave-against-management-well-signposted-1.2371796

Any chance of a C & P?

ColeTrain

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Lad I work with who is involved in the backroom team with an intercounty setup said to me this morning what were they thinking having the brother as the liaison officer. Just said it stank of amateur.

It's crazy stuff alright.

I missed the interview on Off The Ball but Neary was trying to sweep it under the carpet apparently? You have to ask, what the **** was he doing talking to the national media? Why not keep it quiet until they get this sorted, or at least have a plan of action.

Sure if he doesn't have the facts, then it's just his opinion - which is irrelevant. Will they ever learn?

Coillte_Bhoy

Neary's interview

http://offtheball.newstalk.com/player/podcasts/-/GAA_on_Off_The_Ball/107174/1/mayo_football_crisis

seligehgit

Malachy Clerkin: Mayo players’ heave against management well signposted
Pat Holmes and Noel Connelly got off on the wrong foot with a panel hungry for an All-Ireland


The temptation when a group of players takes it upon themselves to initiate a heave against management is to pose a simple question. Who the hell do they think they are? In the case of the Mayo footballers, it is their certainty on that score that has led to this. They think they are the right leader away from an All-Ireland. And just now, they don’t think they have the right leaders.
The vote of no confidence in Noel Connelly and Pat Holmes had been coming a while. At the All-Ireland final 10 days ago, there was word that a players’ letter was being delivered that night to the county board – it appears now that they held off a week as Connelly was out of the country. One way or another, this outcome has felt inevitable for much of the season.
For now, the players look to be in a holding pattern. None of those contacted on Tuesday would be drawn on the situation but the longer the week goes without a response from Holmes and Connelly, the less likely it is that the players will stay silent. The next step is management’s – do they dig in or do they accept that they have no credibility with this group?


From the start, Holmes and Connelly got off on the wrong foot. A major factor in presenting their credentials for the job was the under-21 All-Ireland they won with a large chunk of the team back in 2006. But though the players had evolved since then, both individually and as a group, they came to the conclusion early on that not a lot had changed in terms of Holmes and Connelly’s approach.
Though the players had been to two All-Ireland finals and won four-in-a-row in Connacht, they felt talked down to from the beginning. There was an acceptance from the players that they needed to improve tactically and move on a level after James Horan’s time in charge, but they soon felt that they were learning nothing new.
Small things changed and grated with the players, becoming symptomatic of a wider slippage as time went by. There was a clearout of a few of the medical staff, some of whom had seen the players through long and painstaking recoveries from injury. Logistics weren’t quite as well organised as before – a trip to Derry involved a bus delay that could have been avoided led to inevitable comparisons with the previous regime. Faces from outside the group would occasionally appear in the inner sanctum of the dressing room.
While none of this is debilitating necessarily, there was a death-by-a-thousand-cuts feel to the year. For the players, the Mayo football team was a high performance environment. That’s who the hell they thought they were. What they wanted from management was a step up from what they had before.
Instead, the vibe they got from Holmes and Connelly was that they were no different to the Mayo teams that had come close to winning All-Irelands in the past. To the players, this was all very well – if tough love was the way to go, so be it. But for that to work, it had to be accompanied by fresh ideas and a creative tactical approach. They found this to be lacking.
In short, the players needed to be impressed and Holmes and Connelly did not impress them. While it may not sit particularly well with GAA traditionalists, the reality of the situation is that when a group of players in any sport are close to achieving their ultimate goal, they feel a deep ownership of the whole enterprise.
Keith Higgins is 30. Aidan O’Shea is 25. With the exception of the O’Connor brothers, the rest of Mayo’s main men are aged somewhere in between. If there is an All-Ireland in this group, it needs to come in the next two or three seasons or they will end up as just another group of Mayo footballers who let the chance pass them by.
Whether they are right or wrong in their judgement on the abilities of Holmes and Connelly doesn’t actually matter. What matters is that they felt they weren’t being adequately led. That being the case, they owed it to themselves to do what they could to change their circumstances

Fr Tod Umptious

Clirkins article is interesting.

One reason I was in favour of the C+H option over the McStay/McHale option was because I felt the former would be closer in the Horan style of management than the latter.
I always felt that, McHale especially, was from a different era where things were less "professional"

From the article however it seems that the changes made by the C+H regime were even too much for the players to take, so God only knows what sort of upheaval McStay and McHale would have brought.


And if we are trying to guess what the players have in mind with this action, a guess that they would want Horan back may not be too far fetched.

Horan did leave of his own accord remember, he was not ousted by players or administrators.

seligehgit

Awful interview by Vincent Neary....we have the process in place ad nauseum!

wirelessdude01

My reading is that the players felt that there was little or no actual progress this year and that there was an element of stagnation happening.

PressRun

I think they're sick of waiting, tbh. Coming in second or losing to the eventual winners in the semis isn't good enough anymore. They want an All-Ireland and obviously they don't feel as though that's going to happen under the current management. Although I've always thought Mayo were a good team, I didn't see any huge improvement from what went on under Horan. They didn't seem any closer to an All-Ireland this year than they did last year. They are capable of winning imo, but I think they need someone in there who's going to get the operation working like clockwork and instill a bit of killer instinct.

I hope the county board doesn't try and undermine the players now. Given the conflict of interest at the centre of all this, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if there's a stand off of some kind between players and co board/management.

Shurimgreat

I'd have Buckley as manager in a flash.

He doesn't do drama or controversy. He got on with the job the last couple of years while managers came and went and County Board were its usual farce.

There is no question Buckley is a top quality coach, the players have bought into everything he has done. Holmes/Connelly still have questions hanging over them. They were badly shown up against Dublin and will be against any top team.

TCDStudent1

Shurimgreat wrote: »

I'd have Buckley as manager in a flash.

He doesn't do drama or controversy. He got on with the job the last couple of years while managers came and went and County Board were its usual farce.

There is no question Buckley is a top quality coach, the players have bought into everything he has done. Holmes/Connelly still have questions hanging over them. They were badly shown up against Dublin and will be against any top team.

Aah but does that make him a top quality manager? Also, if he was to become manager, you lose out on him as a coach - if he is as good a coach as everybody says, then it could be to the detriment of the team to lose him as a coach.....

Shurimgreat

Horan is not the answer by the way. He had 4 years, the latter 3 of which he had the team at their best. But for poor tactics he could have delivered at least one All-Ireland, as could any half decent manager with this team. He had his time, did well but came up short where and when it counted. We don't need this to turn into Groundhog day.

We need management with tactical acumen.

Shurimgreat

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

Aah but does that make him a top quality manager? Also, if he was to become manager, you lose out on him as a coach - if he is as good a coach as everybody says, then it could be to the detriment of the team to lose him as a coach.....

My point is, he should be making the decisions on the sideline. He's plenty of experience in elite inter county setups, both Mayo and Kerry.

He should at least be given an opportunity.

And again, I hope people don't use the "ah but he doesn't have the intercounty management experience" line. That argument has been comprehensively demolished time and time again by new managers.

You do raise an interesting point though. What exactly does the intercounty "manager" do these days? Pick the team? What else?

Its important to maintain continuity in Mayo football. Buckley ensured that the last few years. He's earned his shot.

davegrohl48

Lee Keegan states in Connaught Telegraph he did not attend meeting and supported mgmt team. One of 7 players who did. I thought a secret ballot... was meant to be secret.

PressRun

Is it true what I read earlier that H&C plan on resisting the vote of no confidence? If that's true, that's an outrageous stance to take. If you've lost the dressing room, walk away with a bit of dignity. If they insist on staying, then they're not in it for the right reasons, tbh.

Green Peter

I think the players are afraid Buckley is leaving and don't feel they can compete for a title without him, they see Holmes and connolly as being in the way and will now look to the county board to offer the job to Buckley , he's the only one now that could be acceptable to everyone!

thesultan

Would Jimmy Mcguinnes go to Mayo?

davegrohl48

Green Peter wrote: »

I think the players are afraid Buckley is leaving and don't feel they can compete for a title without him, they see Holmes and connolly as being in the way and will now look to the county board to offer the job to Buckley , he's the only one now that could be acceptable to everyone!

I never hear anything other than tackling with Buckley. He's the coach where is our quick counter attacking, target man play? The sweeper system? Nothing to do with the coach?

TCDStudent1

Shurimgreat wrote: »

My point is, he should be making the decisions on the sideline. He's plenty of experience in elite inter county setups, both Mayo and Kerry.

He should at least be given an opportunity.

And again, I hope people don't use the "ah but he doesn't have the intercounty management experience" line. That argument has been comprehensively demolished time and time again by new managers.

You do raise an interesting point though. What exactly does the intercounty "manager" do these days? Pick the team? What else?

Its important to maintain continuity in Mayo football. Buckley ensured that the last few years. He's earned his shot.

I have never been part of an inter-county set up unfortunately so I find it hard to answer your question. I remember reading an article about Jim Gavin where it was saying that he plays the part of a delegator more than anything. He surrounds himself with experts in different areas, gives them scope to do their thing and then he picks the team. I think Horan was known to have a similar approach.

I think Buckley would be a good choice as manager. I was just suggesting that Mayo may 'lose' something if they appoint him as manager. I'd imagine that all the top teams have very skilled coaches in coaching them now. If Buckley was to become manager, then surely he wouldn't have time to do the coaching. And Mayo would have to replace him with another very skilled coach which might not be so easy....

TCDStudent1

davegrohl48 wrote: »

Lee Keegan states in Connaught Telegraph he did not attend meeting and supported mgmt team. One of 7 players who did. I thought a secret ballot... was meant to be secret.

Any link?

Royal Legend

PressRun wrote: »

I think they're sick of waiting, tbh. Coming in second or losing to the eventual winners in the semis isn't good enough anymore. They want an All-Ireland and obviously they don't feel as though that's going to happen under the current management. Although I've always thought Mayo were a good team, I didn't see any huge improvement from what went on under Horan. They didn't seem any closer to an All-Ireland this year than they did last year. They are capable of winning imo, but I think they need someone in there who's going to get the operation working like clockwork and instill a bit of killer instinct.

I hope the county board doesn't try and undermine the players now. Given the conflict of interest at the centre of all this, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if there's a stand off of some kind between players and co board/management.

IMO you had the right man in Horan, and it looks like the players know that as well, very very unlucky to lose to Kerry last year in two of the best games of football i have ever witnessed, things just went against you last year, for example your two most prominent forwards clashing heads in the replay, had a huge bearing on the result, plus a couple of dodgy decisions near the end of the game going to Kerry
The standard was set high by Horan, obviously the players felt the standard this season was not good enough. I think if Horan had stayed on he may have got youse over the line this year

davegrohl48

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

Any link?

On me phone sorry.

Uncle Ben

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

Any link?

Any numbers on how many voted in total. 7 players supporting mgt doesn't seem too bad. I would have thought it would have been almost unanimous in the demand for change.

PressRun

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

Any link?

http://www.con-telegraph.ie/news/roundup/articles/2015/09/29/4106582-lee-keegan-did-not-support-mayo-gaa-noconfidence-vote/

Ascii

Uncle Ben wrote: »

Any numbers on how many voted in total. 7 players supporting mgt doesn't seem too bad. I would have thought it would have been almost unanimous in the demand for change.

7 out of a squad of 32-35 is pretty poor being honest. Surprised at keegan disclosing how he voted. Media have so much to answer for. Players should shut the f**k up talking to the media. All the media do is put a spin on things and take what's said out of context. Players have delivered their letter and ultimatum. They should wait for the CB to have their meeting and decide the outcome and go from there...but for the love of god stay quiet in the meantime.

Shurimgreat

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

I have never been part of an inter-county set up unfortunately so I find it hard to answer your question. I remember reading an article about Jim Gavin where it was saying that he plays the part of a delegator more than anything. He surrounds himself with experts in different areas, gives them scope to do their thing and then he picks the team. I think Horan was known to have a similar approach.

I think Buckley would be a good choice as manager. I was just suggesting that Mayo may 'lose' something if they appoint him as manager. I'd imagine that all the top teams have very skilled coaches in coaching them now. If Buckley was to become manager, then surely he wouldn't have time to do the coaching. And Mayo would have to replace him with another very skilled coach which might not be so easy....

Like you I don't have an inside track on inter county management. I'd imagine the manager or managers attend training session, but again what do they do at these sessions? Just sit there and watch? Decide who is fit and who isn't? Who is going well?

It seems strange that the person closest to the players, who works with them in training sessions, and who basically tells them what to do, then has to take a back seat when it comes to selection and tactics on match day.

I give huge credit to Buckley for bringing on this Mayo team, more so than I would give to Horan, Holmes or Connelly. All I have seen from the managers is poor tactics, substitutions and decision making...undoing all the good work done by Buckley.

Buckley if he leaves, would be a massive loss to Mayo football. But I can understand why he might leave, given that he comes all the way up from Clare I think a few nights a week, and then on big match days sees poor management decisions undo his work. Frustrating I'd imagine.

davegrohl48

Ascii wrote: »

7 out of a squad of 32-35 is pretty poor being honest. Surprised at keegan disclosing how he voted. Media have so much to answer for. Players should shut the f**k up talking to the media. All the media do is put a spin on things and take what's said out of context. Players have delivered their letter and ultimatum. They should wait for the CB to have their meeting and decide the outcome and go from there...but for the love of god stay quiet in the meantime.

You get your vote and then after that you cannot disclose how you voted. As a group the majority decision rules and the issues can be put out in the public. But revealing your vote can only create further division.

TCDStudent1

Ascii wrote: »

7 out of a squad of 32-35 is pretty poor being honest. Surprised at keegan disclosing how he voted. Media have so much to answer for. Players should shut the f**k up talking to the media. All the media do is put a spin on things and take what's said out of context. Players have delivered their letter and ultimatum. They should wait for the CB to have their meeting and decide the outcome and go from there...but for the love of god stay quiet in the meantime.

A 34 man panel I heard / read somewhere earlier today.

The link above says Lee Keegan held the management in the highest regard. The article doesn't provide any direct quotes & says "a source close to the player" so I'd be wary of trusting it. However, it is interesting that probably Mayo's best player of the year has confidence in the management team.

It is hard to envisage a situation whereby one player could have such high regard for management & others have such little confidence that they resort to ousting them in the manner they did.