Mayo GAA Discussion Part 2

seligehgit

PressRun wrote: »

The Jim Gavins and Eamonn Fiztmaurices of the world also wouldn't carry on the way Holmes and Connelly did throughout their management. 5,000 words in that article and not one word about their own failings. All this talk about passing the buck, but that's exactly what they do in that article themselves. No mention of the bullying tactics and outdated training methods, nothing about having no room on the team bus for players because Pat and Noel wanted to bring hangers on, nothing about them bringing their friends and children of friends into the dressing room before big matches, nothing about the refusal to offer support to certain players facing problems within the game. If a Dublin player went to Jim Gavin about a game-related issue, do you think he'd just point blank refuse and turn his back on them? No way. He'd defend them to the hilt, as a good manager would.

And that's just the tip of the iceberg without even getting into how they were appointed to the position and other carry on behind the scenes. Nothing was ever publicly said about them, their appointment or what went on under their management, which could have been embarrassing for both of them and the county board. I've very little sympathy for either of them or members of the county board who enabled all of this. They want to have the last word on the matter without admitting any blame themselves and the county board care not a jot about the fallout of underhandedly appointing people to positions they're not up to. And then to say that they're doing all this for the good of Mayo football? Are they hell.

Do I think there are problems within the team? Yes. But Holmes and Connelly are no victims and the notion that it's all on the players and nothing to do with them is manifestly untrue. The team were incredibly united and had a very tight bond under James Horan. While he wasn't perfect, he brought them on immensely. Do people really think that problems just emerged out of nowhere for no reason other than "egos"? The cracks noticeably emerged under Holmes and Connelly and there are reasons for that. Those cracks found their roots in carry on from the county board, who were also at the heart of James Horan's decision to leave.

I'm glad Holmes and Connelly are gone. I only wish they'd brought half the county board with them. If Mayo ever win an All-Ireland, it'll be in spite of those on the county board, not because of them.

I am not privy to the core of the complaints the players had with the management although I had heard some of the issues what you have mentioned through the grapevine.It may well be a valid point that the players were vague re their complaints in order wish to spare Noel Connelly and Pat Holmes any blushes by not making the crux of their issues public.I had my doubts re the management team and ultimately like the majority of supporters rowed in behind the players who give their lives to the jersey.

Admittedly they were not exactly forthcoming in discussing their own frailties but a central theme of the article seemed to be an unacceptable undermining of the management.Jim Gavin,Eamonn Fitzmaurice and Jim McGuinness in all probability would never be in a position where they'd have to be composing a 5,000 word piece.Jim McGuinness ruthlessly dropped one of Donegal's finest talents Kevin Cassidy from the panel after his book revealed too many in house secrets.The same individual was consigned to oblivion minus an All Ireland medal many of his comrades later won in 2012.There can be only one manager.

James Horan was an excellent manager yet ultimately failed.

The appointment process around Noel Connelly and Pat Holmes stank to high heaven and the treatment of Kevin McStay and Liam McHale was appalling.The county board have had many failing down through the years and like many county boards the officials like to exert power over those of most importance,the players.However you'll hear similar complaints re county boards up and down the country...Frank Murphy and the Cork county board.It is unfair to single out same as the vast majority of these individuals only want what's best for Mayo GAA.I would happily contend that no expense has been spared since the start of James Horan regime and indeed long before in Mayo teams quest to win the All Ireland.

The management may well not have been the right fit but as many have stated in the end the team simply have not been good enough to claim the big prize/I believe the prize will elude them until any notions of player power are consigned to the past and we find ourselves a couple of top quality forwards.A bit of introspection by the players and the wider Mayo GAA support is to be welcomed.

Coillte_Bhoy

Found this piece from Connelly in the interview a bit odd

In our days playing for Mayo, we wouldn't have stood for a small group calling the shots or having all the say. They would have been told fairly quickly where to go

So why did they allow it as managers?

PressRun

seligehgit wrote: »

It is unfair to single out same as the vast majority of these individuals only want what's best for Mayo GAA.

I would seriously question that.

And Jim Gavin or Eamonn Fitzmaurice would never be in a position to compose a 5,000 word piece because they would sort out their problems in house. Every team has egos, All-Ireland title or not, and every county has clubs and individuals that exert more influence than others. The only difference seems to be that some figures within Mayo GAA seem to think that the best way to resolve these issues is through the media. Jim McGuinness kicked someone off the panel for speaking about what was going on behind the scenes. Holmes and Connelly have done exactly the same and have actually given details of conversations that happened in private. That is well below the belt and a breach of dressing room code. The players have never gone public about their grievances with Holmes and Connelly and have spared them plenty of embarrassment in doing so, imo. If Holmes and Connelly want to really get into the nitty gritty of what happened during their time in charge, I would more than welcome it. But I highly doubt they want any situation to arise where they can't control the narrative.

And I don't believe for a second that they don't know why they were ousted. They know exactly why.

finisklin

Horan set an unbelievably high standard. Holmes & Connelly approach was always going to be benchmarked against a professionalism and attention to detail that was second to none.

The unusual appointment process didn't help them either. Somewhere along the way they rubbed the players up the wrong way through training methods, game planning and player management/welfare falling short of Horan's meticulous approach.

They both had to build on what Horan had established and fell way short.

The judges of this were the players and they were in the position to call this out for what it was - a step back.

It would have been best to let sleeping dogs lie and this is only serving Pat & Noelie's agenda. Plus Tom's Cunniffe opinion set it up nicely for Breheny to sell more newspapers. Best that players ignore this and not to add fuel to the fire.

Any analysis of this has to refer to the appointment of Holmes and Connelly and the fact that Breheny omitted this means that many Indo readers don't have the full context. That's shoddy journalism and pertinent to the story.

Roll on 2017 and the FBD/league.

ChikiChiki

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Found this piece from Connelly in the interview a bit odd



So why did they allow it as managers?

They didn't stand for it as managers and that is what some players took issue with.

PressRun

finisklin wrote: »

Any analysis of this has to refer to the appointment of Holmes and Connelly and the fact that Breheny omitted this means that many Indo readers don't have the full context. That's shoddy journalism and pertinent to the story.

This is extremely important. The county board bear a huge amount of responsibility for staging a sham of an appointment process and it started everything off on the wrong foot.

I know that there are certain players in the squad who loved James Horan and were probably pining for him for some time afterwards (possibly still are), but what happened in the aftermath of his departure was extremely problematic (even how they treated him was an issue) and made for a very bad start in settling the team under new management.

seligehgit

There's a curse on Mayo football all right - but you can't blame the Church for this one




From Eamonn Sweeney on the independent.

Martin Breheny's interview in the Irish Independent with Pat Holmes and Noel Connelly is probably the Irish sports scoop of the year. It's certainly one of the most fascinating and revealing insights into the inner workings of a GAA team you're likely to read.

While it might be pushing it a bit to describe the interview as Shakespearean there's no denying that it contains copious elements of history, comedy and tragedy. First and foremost, it's the definitive history of the events which led to the Mayo players demanding that Holmes and Connelly be sacked at the end of the 2015 GAA season.

Their account makes it obvious that certain players had problems with the management from the get-go and were keen to seek confrontation at every opportunity. On this reading the player revolt was merely the culmination of something which had been brewing from the very beginning.

Why? Holmes and Connelly believe it arises from an unwillingness on the part of the players to take responsibility for their part in the team's persistent failure in big matches. They note that when, after taking over, they asked senior players why they felt Mayo had come up short in recent seasons. The players, "told us match-ups were wrong, opposition analysis was poor, there was a lack of adaptability and they had no defensive plan. They also highlighted some errors for goals and also occasions when they had turned over the ball too easily."

Holmes and Connelly observe that this meant the players were largely blaming "factors outside their control" for their underachievement. In fact, they were implicitly blaming the management of James Horan, something which seems to give the lie to the argument that player objections to the new duo were founded on a perception that there had been a drop-off in standards since Horan's time.


On one level this is an unlovely saga. The player letter sent to the Mayo County Board is an unpleasant mixture of self-praise - "We the players have set extremely high standards in the context of our individual and collective approach . . . The experience and knowledge gained by the players . . . will be an invaluable asset to the County Board teams" - and veiled threat: "We wish to avoid making the resolution of these issues any more public or rancorous than it needs to be and we encourage the County Board to try and deal with this matter in private and not in the public arena." This request that the stab in the back be carried out in the dark rather than the daylight is not much of a tribute to the characters of the people who signed the letter.

Yet the story is not without its comic elements. Only the most stony of heart could suppress a giggle at the pettiness of some of the complaints levelled against Connelly and Holmes by the players during their reign. The player who complained because the bus had gone through a small town in Donegal rather than round it on the way to a game in Derry, the complaints about being 15 minutes later than usual to the dressing room because of a Mass, Aidan O'Shea complaining because he wasn't allowed to appear in a reality TV show. They're funny in the way that prima donna complaints always are.

And the element of tragedy? Well, Holmes and Connelly reveal that Seamus O'Shea demanded that his clubmate Rob Hennelly be picked in goal ahead of David Clarke because O'Shea preferred his kick-outs. They quite rightly told O'Shea that his job was to play and theirs was to manage.

A year later and Hennelly was picked ahead of Clarke for the All-Ireland final replay, a decision which struck most people as mysterious but which was justified on the grounds that the Breaffy man had a better kick-out. The decision by new manager Stephen Rochford turned out be the one which cost Mayo the All-Ireland. We have no way of knowing whether O'Shea repeated his preference for Hennelly to the new manager or whether it would have swayed Rochford if he had done. Yet one solution to the biggest mystery of the Mayo football year certainly seems to suggest itself.

It would be a bitter irony that players who had blamed defeats on their previous management teams ended up being deprived of the ultimate honour because of a terrible miscalculation perpetrated by the manager they'd chosen themselves.

Another great Mayo mystery has been the consistent underperformance of Aidan O'Shea in big games. Despite a massive reputation and undoubted talent he has been utterly peripheral in four All-Ireland finals. A possible solution to that mystery also seems to be vouchsafed by the Holmes-Connelly revelations.

Whether giving out because he wasn't let train with Sunderland or spearheading a complaint about the exclusion of a player from the panel of 26, O'Shea does seem overly keen on the kind of distractions which can prevent a player from fulfilling his potential. The former managers' comment about the number of Twitter followers mattering less than the number of All-Ireland medals may not be expressly aimed at the Breaffy player but people will draw their own conclusions.

Holmes and Connelly believe that the egocentricity of certain players is preventing Mayo from taking the final step towards All-Ireland glory. It's certainly true that Mayo 2016 were strikingly similar to Mayo 2015 and 2014. They did make the All-Ireland final but this was largely because Tipperary were their semi-final opponents. Against Dublin in the decider their performances were the same as they had been in the 2015 and 2014 semis against Kerry and the Dubs, drawing the first game and squandering a winning position in the second. For the third time in five years they lost an All-Ireland final. Whoever is in charge you get roughly the same level of performance from the Mayo players.

This tends to be a very good level of performance. That Mayo team is as gutsy and hard-working as any team in Irish sport. They can never be faulted for their commitment. Yet something is missing. And perhaps that something is an inability to fully face up to the pain of defeat.

Last year's coup could be seen as something which prevented them from having to spend a bitter winter answering the hard questions from their supporters. You saw the same thing at work on an individual level this year when, with the final barely over, Rob Hennelly was tweeting about his indomitable spirit and determination to bounce back when he might have spent more time thinking about the mistake which had cost his team the All-Ireland title they fervently desire. Aidan O'Shea and Lee Keegan were also quick to take to Twitter in a way which would have been unthinkable from Kerry or Kilkenny players.

Darragh ó Sé has written very well on the painful times Kerry players go through when they underperform and the recriminations they have to cope with. It sounds unpleasant yet perhaps it's something which is necessary if teams are to drive themselves on to success. Mayo's players seem somehow unwilling to undergo the requisite process of painful personal inventory. Pat Holmes and Noel Connelly's revelations, in an honest interview with an excellent journalist, reveal the extent to which for the Mayo players the buck always stops with someone else.

Invoking the 'they're only amateurs' excuse won't wash. Holmes and Connelly were amateurs too but the players had few qualms about publicly humiliating them. They deserved to have their say, not least because when the inevitable self-justifying autobiography is published by a Mayo player, some more accusations will no doubt be rolled out. Tom Cunniffe's recent public contrition about the treatment of the two men may well be genuine but it does smack a bit of wanting things both ways. Self-exculpating statements from the players are no doubt in the pipeline. They may even in their heart of hearts welcome the controversy as another distraction from the one fact about Mayo football which really matters. That fact is that they are fine footballers but they are also failures.

Not by the standards of almost every other football team in the country but by the "extremely high standards", which, in their letter of no confidence in Connelly and Holmes, the players said they set for themselves. Deep down they know that.

There's a curse on Mayo football all right. But you can't blame the Church for this one

Coillte_Bhoy

ChikiChiki wrote: »

They didn't stand for it as managers and that is what some players took issue with.

Fair enough, i misread it

finisklin

Cunniffe voted to oust them in the first instance and he now has a change of mind. Stirring this and smugly proclaiming that he won't be donning a Mayo jersey again.

Where was his conscience and sense of balance/fairness at the vote?

Something not right with that either.

PressRun

seligehgit wrote: »

First and foremost, it's the definitive history of the events which led to the Mayo players demanding that Holmes and Connelly be sacked at the end of the 2015 GAA season.
eral in four All-Ireland finals.

Is it now?

finisklin

PressRun wrote: »

Is it now?

In fairness one Sindo journalist calling out another?

Don't think so.

That would be off the ball

Green Peter

i got the feeling they also had a cut at the supporters club and financiers, it seems there are a lot of people who want a say in picking the team other than management, this is the beginning of the end for this team, Galway are on the rise and will probably do what they did in 98 in the next few years and sicken Mayo again!

seligehgit

PressRun wrote: »

Is it now?

Of course it's not,it's a Sindo journalist opinion piece that I thought my fellow boardsies might be interested in perusing.There are two sides to every story.The players may well have not wished to inflict too great of distress on Connelly and Holmes but I am sure there are still great pangs of hurt and resentment on their part.

The kitchen is really getting hot in here and the episode continues to divide the Mayo GAA public.As I've stated a level of introspection is required by all within Mayo GAA,ultimately real player power if permitted will continue to be a contributory factor in the team's inability to win the big prize.

Anyway roll on 2017 and the FBD.

Kristopherus

finisklin wrote: »

Cunniffe voted to oust them in the first instance and he now has a change of mind. Stirring this and smugly proclaiming that he won't be donning a Mayo jersey again.

Where was his conscience and sense of balance/fairness at the vote?

Something not right with that either.

Are you sure he did? IIRC he was asked if he agreed with the result of the vote and he said he felt he had to go with the majority.

seligehgit

Kristopherus wrote: »

Are you sure he did? IIRC he was asked if he agreed with the result of the vote and he said he felt he had to go with the majority.

No I believe he voted with the majority without question.

Robeman

What is all the fuss about now. The vast majority of the stuff in the article was mentioned by me back in October. This was first time "EGOS" in Mayo panel were mentioned. You read it here first folks and some of you got me banned.

Go back and read my posts for a better understanding.

So much for integrity of this board

PressRun

seligehgit wrote: »

I am sure there are still great pangs of hurt and resentment on their part.

I still have great pangs of hurt and resentment over things Holmes and Connelly did while in charge as do many of the players, I'm sure. Sure there are problems to resolve but those problems should be resolved in house and not through Martin Breheny of all people. Giving a completely one-sided interview that offers no context and names names and details dressing room conversations and makes insinuations that undermine Rochford are not helpful and this notion that it's for "the good of Mayo football" is complete nonsense.

Robeman

PressRun wrote: »

I still have great pangs of hurt and resentment over things Holmes and Connelly did while in charge as do many of the players, I'm sure. Sure there are problems to resolve but those problems should be resolved in house and not through Martin Breheny of all people. Giving a completely one-sided interview that offers no context and names names and details dressing room conversations and makes insinuations that undermine Rochford are not helpful and this notion that it's for "the good of Mayo football" is complete nonsense.

The shoe is on the other foot now. The players did not give any reason why they wanted Holmes \Connelly gone because only reason was to protect their own "egos" and their places in the panel.

The players did not even have the courage to sign the letter sent. Not one player put their signature on it. As far as I am aware there was no vote approving the letter which was drafted after vote. Question is who exactly drafted the letter.

finisklin

Kristopherus wrote: »

Are you sure he did? IIRC he was asked if he agreed with the result of the vote and he said he felt he had to go with the majority.

See Breheny interview with Cunniffe here in the Indo from 2 weeks ago where he confirms that he voted to oust them. He had to know from the outset that this was going to be a messy process ripe with potential recriminations.

MayoAreMagic

Here here pressrun.
Im not one for making excuses for the players. Our lads get too much praise for winning nothing and if AOS spent half as much time thinking about improving his game as he does thinking about how is hair and beard look, he would be a far better footballer than the one trick pony he has now become.

But the tone of this interview is very biased and unfair. The part that sums it up for me is where the players are lambasted for placing the blame for not winning sam on lacking a defensive plan and poor matchups instead of looking at themselves, yet these were the very things that pundits across the board (including breheny himself) pointed out as the defining factors in big games that mayo lost in the past. It is a complete double standard - and that is how the article goes on; everything is their fault, they have thins cosy and dont want to upset the apple cart, and their management were ousted because they tried to fix it. Sorry but these guys have made all ireland finals over and over. They have pushed teams much more fancied than them to the absolute pin of their collar - sometimes even losing on the back of poor refereeing calls. Teams with such massive issues dont do that once, never mind consistantly.

The bottom line is this, 27 of the 34 players of the squad that they selected themselves, had no faith in them to do the job. That is the piece of information that matters the most yet it is the only one they havent gone into in their lenthy article. If they actually had the good of mayo football at heart, they could have delivered this message to the players in private.

The reality is the papers dont care about them or their story, they just wanted a rod for the mayo footballers backs - which is clear from the tone of the article, and these guys are so short-sighted that they didnt they were being used to that end. Furthermore, it is clear that there were personality clashes within the group, which instead of managing, they made personal. For instance, I dont see what is so wrong with alan dillon asking why an underperforming andy moran was being selected ahead of him. He has put more years than most in for mayo, surely he, being one of the most experienced players in the game, was entitled to have a conversation with the managers to that end? Those things, to me, underline that they weren't good managers and hadnt approached the job in the right manner.

I see people saying that it wouldnt happen in dublin and kerry, and they are 100% right. But the actual difference is they wouldnt have gotten the job in dublin or kerry in the first place and that is why it wouldnt happen. That is the real difference between the squads and that is the lesson for us. However, does anyone think that if dublin were taken from jim gavins setup into, what sounds like, something you would see at an u16 club squad, they wouldnt have something to say about it? No way would they take that, and proper order too. They might go about it in a better way as regards managing the press, but that is only because they have professionals advising them night and day on such things.

seligehgit

PressRun wrote: »

I still have great pangs of hurt and resentment over things Holmes and Connelly did while in charge as do many of the players, I'm sure. Sure there are problems to resolve but those problems should be resolved in house and not through Martin Breheny of all people. Giving a completely one-sided interview that offers no context and names names and details dressing room conversations and makes insinuations that undermine Rochford are not helpful and this notion that it's for "the good of Mayo football" is complete nonsense.

TBF the players are still playing but the management team got the sack,perhaps justifiably so.

If you are correct and the duos motives were not entirely honourable but it nonetheless leads to the weeding out of the oft rumoured player power it will have done our county a service.

PressRun

I agree that the players are wrapped up in cotton wool in the county and that shouldn't be the case until they win an All-Ireland. I would also have objections to how certain players use the media and I am of the belief that certain players should be dropped (and I think Rochford will do that). There is also a man on the peripherals (not a player) who should most definitely be told to back off. But that's for the county board to deal with and they don't/won't. We all heard how they treated Mickey Moran a few years ago too. Nothing's changed.

Robeman

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Here here pressrun.
Im not one for making excuses for the players. Our lads get too much praise for winning nothing and if AOS spent half as much time thinking about improving his game as he does thinking about how is hair and beard look, he would be a far better footballer than the one trick pony he has now become.

But I think the tone of this interview is very biased and unfair. The part that sums it up for me is where the players are lambasted for placing the blame for not winning sam on lacking a defensive plan and poor matchups instead of looking at themselves, yet these were the very things that pundits across the board (including breheny himself!) pointed out as the defining factors in big games that mayo lost in the past. It is a complete double standard - one of many in the piece.

The bottom line is this, 27 of the 34 players of the squad that they selected themselves, had no faith in them to do the job. That is the piece of information that matters the most yet it is the only one they havent gone into in their lenthy article. If they actually had the good of mayo football at heart, they could have delivered this message to the players in private.

The reality is the papers dont care about them or their story, they just wanted a rod for the mayo footballers backs - which is clear from the tone of the article, and these guys are so short-sighted that they didnt they were being used to that end. Furthermore, it is clear that there were personality clashes within the group, which instead of managing, they made personal. For instance, I dont see what is so wrong with alan dillon asking why an underperforming andy moran was being selected ahead of him. He has put more years than most in for mayo, surely he, being one of the most experienced players in the game, was entitled to have a conversation with the managers to that end? Those things, to me, underline that they weren't good managers and hadnt approached the job in the right manner.

I see people saying that it wouldnt happen in dublin and kerry, and they are 100% right. But the actual difference is they wouldnt have gotten the job in dublin or kerry in the first place and that is why it wouldnt happen. That is the real difference between the squads and that is the lesson for us. However, does anyone think that if dublin were taken from jim gavins setup into, what sounds like, something you would see at an u16 club squad, they wouldnt have something to say about it? No way would they take that, and proper order too. They might go about it in a better way as regards managing the press, but that is only because they have professionals advising them night and day on such things.

The players were given ample opportunity to give reason but they chose not to because there are none of substance. Finally Holmes \ Connolly give theirs and somehow it is one sided.

The great unknown is actually what the result of the vote was. The problem there is that no tellers were appointed by the meeting and votes were not publically counted. If the "Egos" were the one who called the meeting \ organised venue \ set the agenda \ decided on what to be voted on then very possible that they "organised" vote count as well. It might have been 27-7 and then again it might not have been. Only those who counted votes know the truth. We all laugh at various "Presidential" votes like those in Zimbabwe and how popular Mugabe is. Maybe Mayo player votes have the same rules.

There is nothing wrong with personality clashes or players having opinions (even inflated) on themselves so long as they accept that manager is boss.

The point I draw from article is that Alan Dillon very happy when he was on team less so when he was off it.

Upon reading another I find it very interesting to note the list of people mentioned in the article including

Alan Dillon
Seamus O Shea
Aidan O Shea
Robbie Hennelly
Keith Higgins

I wonder why these were the ones singled out.

Another name mentioned was Noel Howley. Why was he mentioned I wonder.

We don't win a lot in Mayo if fact we win so few national titles at senior level that believe it or not Pat Holmes is out most successful senior manager since 1951 having won a national league title and an under 21 title. So before belittling him less us remember that little fact.

I have no issue with SR but he has yet to manage any Mayo county team to any success but to him you can add every other Senior team manager since 1951 except Seamus Daly whom I believe managed 1970 league winning team.

koochie

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Here here pressrun.
Im not one for making excuses for the players. Our lads get too much praise for winning nothing and if AOS spent half as much time thinking about improving his game as he does thinking about how is hair and beard look, he would be a far better footballer than the one trick pony he has now become.

But the tone of this interview is very biased and unfair. The part that sums it up for me is where the players are lambasted for placing the blame for not winning sam on lacking a defensive plan and poor matchups instead of looking at themselves, yet these were the very things that pundits across the board (including breheny himself) pointed out as the defining factors in big games that mayo lost in the past. It is a complete double standard - and that is how the article goes on; everything is their fault, they have thins cosy and dont want to upset the apple cart, and their management were ousted because they tried to fix it. Sorry but these guys have made all ireland finals over and over. They have pushed teams much more fancied than them to the absolute pin of their collar - sometimes even losing on the back of poor refereeing calls. Teams with such massive issues dont do that once, never mind consistantly.

The bottom line is this, 27 of the 34 players of the squad that they selected themselves, had no faith in them to do the job. That is the piece of information that matters the most yet it is the only one they havent gone into in their lenthy article. If they actually had the good of mayo football at heart, they could have delivered this message to the players in private.

The reality is the papers dont care about them or their story, they just wanted a rod for the mayo footballers backs - which is clear from the tone of the article, and these guys are so short-sighted that they didnt they were being used to that end. Furthermore, it is clear that there were personality clashes within the group, which instead of managing, they made personal. For instance, I dont see what is so wrong with alan dillon asking why an underperforming andy moran was being selected ahead of him. He has put more years than most in for mayo, surely he, being one of the most experienced players in the game, was entitled to have a conversation with the managers to that end? Those things, to me, underline that they weren't good managers and hadnt approached the job in the right manner.

I see people saying that it wouldnt happen in dublin and kerry, and they are 100% right. But the actual difference is they wouldnt have gotten the job in dublin or kerry in the first place and that is why it wouldnt happen. That is the real difference between the squads and that is the lesson for us. However, does anyone think that if dublin were taken from jim gavins setup into, what sounds like, something you would see at an u16 club squad, they wouldnt have something to say about it? No way would they take that, and proper order too. They might go about it in a better way as regards managing the press, but that is only because they have professionals advising them night and day on such things.

The issue here is that a small cohort of players in our squad have been trying to influence management decisions. It appears that they succeeded in doing so in the most important game of this year's GAA calendar, hence we had our All Star goalkeeper keeping a seat in the stand warm whilst the big boys had there buddy between the posts.
Considering Tom Cunniffe's account of things, it is plausible to believe that the majority of players were influenced by a minority. T Cunniffe voted against H and C even tho he didn't have reason to do so. If a senior member of the squad voted against his own beliefs, can you imagine the pressure on the younger lads.

Robeman brought this player power issue to our attention many months ago and he got banned from the thread. Whatever you feel about H and C going to the press, they have confirmed what we were being told here about 8weeks ago. It seems many of us Mayo folk can't cope with self criticism and always look to the outside when things don't go our way.
The issues are there, there is no point sweeping them under the carpet. It's time to take out the full length mirrors and stop running away.

Green Peter

Delighted Clarke got the All Star and retired, he deserved better from teammates.

Robeman

Green Peter wrote: »

Delighted Clarke got the All Star and retired, he deserved better from teammates.

And team management

ProudDUB

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Here here pressrun.
I see people saying that it wouldnt happen in dublin and kerry, and they are 100% right. But the actual difference is they wouldnt have gotten the job in dublin or kerry in the first place and that is why it wouldnt happen. That is the real difference between the squads and that is the lesson for us. However, does anyone think that if dublin were taken from jim gavins setup into, what sounds like, something you would see at an u16 club squad, they wouldnt have something to say about it? No way would they take that, and proper order too. They might go about it in a better way as regards managing the press, but that is only because they have professionals advising them night and day on such things.

Dublin footballers don't embaress themselves in the media, because they understand the concepts of team work, hard work, loyalty and unity. It's not because they are being advised by professionals night and day. If you think character doesn't matter & its just about having the right handlers on the payroll, then you have an awful lot to learn about what it takes to win an All Ireland.

seligehgit

Green Peter wrote: »

Delighted Clarke got the All Star and retired, he deserved better from teammates.

There has been no indication that David Clarke has retired.

Robeman

ProudDUB wrote: »

Dublin footballers don't embaress themselves in the media, because they understand the concepts of team work, hard work, loyalty and unity. It's not because they are being advised by professionals night and day. If you think character doesn't matter & its just about having the right handlers on the payroll, then you have an awful lot to learn about what it takes to win an All Ireland.

Correct me if I am wrong. My understanding is that Dublin panel share all earnings from media, promotional, advertising work rather than it going to main stars only. If true this demonstartes a good team ethic. I don't believe that this happens in Mayo

TCDStudent1

what was the issue with their appointment again?

Didn't McStay withdraw once it became clear that the players didn't want to work with Liam McHale? I certainly remember him saying something like that when he withdrew. And I don't recall any other contenders outside Holmes / Connelly

seligehgit

Robeman wrote: »

Correct me if I am wrong. My understanding is that Dublin panel share all earnings from media, promotional, advertising work rather than it going to main stars only. If true this demonstartes a good team ethic. I don't believe that this happens in Mayo

Yes that is correct,I read it somewhere.Right and proper,it should be implemented in Mayo.

ammc

PressRun wrote: »

If Holmes and Connelly want to really get into the nitty gritty of what happened during their time in charge, I would more than welcome it. But I highly doubt they want any situation to arise where they can't control the narrative.

And I don't believe for a second that they don't know why they were ousted. They know exactly why.

PressRun, why the mystery? Why were they ousted?

finisklin

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

what was the issue with their appointment again?

Didn't McStay withdraw once it became clear that the players didn't want to work with Liam McHale? I certainly remember him saying something like that when he withdrew. And I don't recall any other contenders outside Holmes / Connelly

The county board chariman called McStay for a second interview after McStay was told that Holmes & Connelly had got the job. In effect McNicholas wanted McStay to withdraw from process paving way open for Holmes and Connelly.

MayoAreMagic

Robeman wrote: »

The players were given ample opportunity to give reason but they chose not to because there are none of substance. Finally Holmes \ Connolly give theirs and somehow it is one sided.

The great unknown is actually what the result of the vote was. The problem there is that no tellers were appointed by the meeting and votes were not publically counted. If the "Egos" were the one who called the meeting \ organised venue \ set the agenda \ decided on what to be voted on then very possible that they "organised" vote count as well. It might have been 27-7 and then again it might not have been. Only those who counted votes know the truth. We all laugh at various "Presidential" votes like those in Zimbabwe and how popular Mugabe is. Maybe Mayo player votes have the same rules.

Sorry but that isnt true at all. None of this was played out in public, therefore the entire thing is a 'great unknown', using that logic.

They dont have to make their reasons public and that is their perogative. Do you tell the world the details of your business? Because I certainly dont. Now I agree that the reasons could maybe have been discussed with the two guys, but what actual difference would that make? They still wanted them out. In all likelihood we would just have had more meat for the journos to tear into in their articles when the details were inevitably leaked - the same way everything else has been leaked, both by the co board, certain players and the managers themselves. So in that respect, maybe it was the smartest thing they have done to date to say nothing? You are naive if you think the managers dont know 95% of what all this was over. They were there the same as all the players were.

Robeman wrote: »

There is nothing wrong with personality clashes or players having opinions (even inflated) on themselves so long as they accept that manager is boss.

Absolutely there isnt, so why were they so put out by it? Why did they take it so personally that players had different opinions to them? As for not accepting who was boss, I see no genuine evidence of that. I see details of players speaking with managers that are being spun a certain way by one side. We need more context on SOS' suggesting hennelly for example. Was he laying down the law or was he simply offering his opinion to the managers in a well meaning way? We are having an awful lot of blanks filled in for us in a quite deliberate way in this article. What I dont get is if it is this clear cut, why cant they just give us those details, rather than their narrative?

Robeman wrote: »

The point I draw from article is that Alan Dillon very happy when he was on team less so when he was off it.

Alan Dillon wasnt in the team at any point though. Which, when you consider his influence against tyrone a year later, raises questions as regards their managerial ability. Could this lack of ability be a factor in the frustrations clearly evident in the players? Very likely I would imagine. You seem to have everything as a one way street. There are two sides to every story.


QUOTE=Robeman;102008189]Alan Dillon
Seamus O Shea
Aidan O Shea
Robbie Hennelly
Keith Higgins
I wonder why these were the ones singled out. [/QUOTE]

The same higgins who they named their vice captain?


QUOTE=Robeman;102008189]We don't win a lot in Mayo if fact we win so few national titles at senior level that believe it or not Pat Holmes is out most successful senior manager since 1951 having won a national league title and an under 21 title. So before belittling him less us remember that little fact.[/QUOTE]

Indeed. As we should remember that this group of players are the most committed, determined, consistant and by far the best group we have ever had, who have taken superior teams to the wire time and again and are feared and respected up and down the country. Before slating them at every turn and giving them zero slack, we should remember that fact also, shouldnt we? Or are you going down the martin breheny school of double standards route also?

MayoAreMagic

ProudDUB wrote: »

Dublin footballers don't embaress themselves in the media, because they understand the concepts of team work, hard work, loyalty and unity. It's not because they are being advised by professionals night and day. If you think character doesn't matter & its just about having the right handlers on the payroll, then you have an awful lot to learn about what it takes to win an All Ireland.

Ah give me a break. Plenty dublin players embarassed themselves in the media in the run up to the final replay, albeit past players. And I can think of one current player who went on the radio and flatly denied he had gouged another players eye, when it was clear that he had - I would consider that very embarassing to be honest.

I never mentioned the word character, so I dont know where you are pulling that tangent out of. However, this mayo team has plenty of it. Do you think they didnt know they would have plenty aiming the above type of stuff at them at every turn? The easy thing was to just go along with it. They still had the guts to do it. I dont put them up on a pedestal as I have early pointed out - they arent perfect. But they are due a fair and reasonable 'trial by media' at least, if people are determinded to trial them there.

Kristopherus

seligehgit wrote: »

No I believe he voted with the majority without question.

You're right. My bad:o

ProudDUB

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Ah give me a break. Plenty dublin players embarassed themselves in the media in the run up to the final replay, albeit past players. And I can think of one current player who went on the radio and flatly denied he had gouged another players eye, when it was clear that he had - I would consider that very embarassing to be honest.

I never mentioned the word character, so I dont know where you are pulling that tangent out of. However, this mayo team has plenty of it. Do you think they didnt know they would have plenty aiming the above type of stuff at them at every turn? The easy thing was to just go along with it. They still had the guts to do it. I dont put them up on a pedestal as I have early pointed out - they arent perfect. But they are due a fair and reasonable 'trial by media' at least, if people are determinded to trial them there.

Where did I say that the Dublin footballers don't do plenty of press interviews? No where is where. What they don't do is wash any of their dirty linen in public, engage in any kind of rumour mongering, or issue pissed off tweets directed at their own county board, because their father didn't get the gig with the u21 set up. If Michael Daragh McAuley, Kevin McMennamon, or the Brogans are pissed off at Jim Gavin because they are spending too much time on the bench, we sure as heck ain't going to be reading about it in the papers, or on Boards. Same for Kieran Donaghy, Marc O'Se or James O'Donoghue in Kerry. Paid media handlers has eff all to do with that.

koochie

Mayo Are Magic is it a possibility that because H & C did not pander to the requests/demands of the 'egos' that the players revolted?
If this happens to be the case, the players who initiated the whole thing are hardly going to be honest about their motives, as in doing so would turn members of the team against them. E.g. Hennelly is hardly going to tell Clarke he is not happy with H & C because they view Clarke to be the superior man on the goal line.
As yesterday's article outlines mountains were being made out of molehills in regard to trivial events, possibly because the players with issues could not make their true motives known, as their motives were not for in the interest of all the players.

MayoAreMagic

koochie wrote: »

The issue here is that a small cohort of players in our squad have been trying to influence management decisions. It appears that they succeeded in doing so in the most important game of this year's GAA calendar, hence we had our All Star goalkeeper keeping a seat in the stand warm whilst the big boys had there buddy between the posts.

If that is the case then it needs addressing, but we need more than what we got to prove that it is so. Like are they trying to influence it, or are they just trying to help by giving their views? To be honest, the two guys seemed to have been stewing over this, going over it again and again, which I understand. Doesnt really offer much as regards objectivity though does it? They seem to have found an issue with every possible thing - the same thing they were accusing the players of. Like the part about guys not being in the squad previously, therefore not being in a position to decide that they werent up to the job - guys have played in college teams, u21 county teams, top club teams. More importantly, they are out there on the pitch and they can see what other teams are doing, how they are prepared, their tactics and they can compare that to their own. Of course they are in a position to decide if they are doing a job of that standard. I found that point rediculous and also quite petty. 'Sure what would ye know' - come on like...

These correspondence need to be viewed properly by an objective party if we are to come to this conclusion.
Isnt it possible that AOS was simply acting as a senior player on behalf of a younger player as to why he wasnt being considered and what he could do to be considered? Was this guy going well? Did they tell him how he could get into the squad or just ignore him? Was AOS one of the players rep? Like this thing of managers call the shots and the players should sit there like lambs, is a handy rod for their backs, but it isnt exactly how things go in reality. Players go to managers all the time and ask what they need to do or why they arent being considered etc - they want to play.
I recall a passage from Jack O'Connors book where Tom O'Sullivan texted him telling him he had saved his job with the use of some xrated language to boot! (But of course this doesnt happen in kerry!) Imagine the reaction if that was aimed at AOS in this article? Now he was actually half joking in doing so, but that could be spun quite differently, if the author so wishes, couldnt it? - Context. Darragh O'Se had a big issue with the use of psychologists and was quite awkward to handle around this issue. What is the difference?

koochie wrote: »

Considering Tom Cunniffe's account of things, it is plausible to believe that the majority of players were influenced by a minority. T Cunniffe voted against H and C even tho he didn't have reason to do so. If a senior member of the squad voted against his own beliefs, can you imagine the pressure on the younger lads.

In fairness, his version is being spun too. The sentiment of his interview was that he didnt like how things went subsequently (i.e. after they had made their feelings known), that maybe it was a bit too forceful, and that he regrets that. Id say most players in the squad would make that same point. They didnt want to shame them and that was clear. If you recall, it was not the players who first went public with this story. They wanted them to just step down and keep it in house - which is exactly what should have happened. Now every time I read a reference to cunniffe, his account is changing more and more. Soon enough the O'Sheas will have waterboarded him to vote Yes. It just isnt fair, and more importantly, it isnt conducive to an objective view.

He voted them out because he didnt think they were up to the job - a trusted lieutenant of holmes at club level dont forget. That is the salient point as regards cunniffe. Of course he felt bad after and felt maybe things could have been handled better, Im sure he isnt alone. Doesnt mean he changed his mind as regards their quality though.

koochie wrote: »

It seems many of us Mayo folk can't cope with self criticism and always look to the outside when things don't go our way.
The issues are there, there is no point sweeping them under the carpet. It's time to take out the full length mirrors and stop running away.

Indeed. And that is a good point - but I would argue that connelly and holmes are as guilty as anyone on this front. They seemed to take real offence to anyone asking them questions or looking for an explanation for what they are telling guys to do. They seem to think that any query is an attack on them personally or total insubordination. I mean guys can ask them questions ffs, or make points about what they feel allows them to play to their best - and if you just concentrate on the details; that is all we have evidence of. That to me indicates that they just werent up to this job, and blaming the players egos or cliques isnt going to change that. Did anyone stop to realise that this 'clique' also happened to contain most of the most senior members in the squad? Maybe this clique was actually experienced senior guys trying to save the ship from sinking. I suppose we could spin that angle too. In fact Id say it probably will be done in the coming weeks, which will also be a big hit Im sure. The only guys winning here are the papers, who are playing mayo like a fiddle.

MayoAreMagic

ProudDUB wrote: »

Where did I say that the Dublin footballers don't do plenty of press interviews? No where is where. What they don't do is wash any of their dirty linen in public, engage in any kind of rumour mongering, or issue pissed off tweets directed at their own county board, because their father didn't get the gig with the u21 set up. If Michael Daragh McAuley, Kevin McMennamon, or the Brogans are pissed off at Jim Gavin because they are spending too much time on the bench, we sure as heck ain't going to be reading about it in the papers, or on Boards. Same for Kieran Donaghy, Marc O'Se or James O'Donoghue in Kerry. Paid media handlers has eff all to do with that.

You said they dont embarassed themselves in the media - I pointed out that they do. Case closed.

Although funny you mention the brogans and the bench - alan brogan has stated in an interview that he wanted to play and didnt want to be on the bench or be a bit part player, and that this was a big part of why he retired. Sounds like he was a bit pissed off to me... Anyway, this thread isnt about dublin, so maybe you can stop making it about them...

km79

What had Holmes and Connolly to gain from this ? If I was a betting man I'd put a sizeable wager on which one of them wanted it to go this way anyway .
Maybe he pressured the other lad into it

MayoAreMagic

koochie wrote: »

Mayo Are Magic is it a possibility that because H & C did not pander to the requests/demands of the 'egos' that the players revolted?
If this happens to be the case, the players who initiated the whole thing are hardly going to be honest about their motives, as in doing so would turn members of the team against them. E.g. Hennelly is hardly going to tell Clarke he is not happy with H & C because they view Clarke to be the superior man on the goal line.
As yesterday's article outlines mountains were being made out of molehills in regard to trivial events, possibly because the players with issues could not make their true motives known, as their motives were not for in the interest of all the players.

A lot of ifs and buts there. It could be the case, or it could not be, I dont really see the point of idle speculation. Like it is also possible that the version we have just heard is full of inaccuracies, but again, idle speculation.

As regards trivial issues being made into mountains, the same could be said of their issues to be honest. Was SOS dictating to them or simply offering them the opinion of the guy who is supposed to be catching said kickouts? Was AOS dictating to them or just speaking on behalf of a young lad who felt he was going well and wanted some feedback? And was alan dillon being insubordinate or was he fully entitled to ask why a guy who was out of form at the time was selected ahead of him in every single game? Depends on how you want to spin it I would say - and there has been a hell of a lot of that.

The reality is we need to keep an open mind and not believe everything we read, particularly when it is from a guy who we know has written some dodgey stuff about us in the past.

Robeman

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Sorry but that isnt true at all. None of this was played out in public, therefore the entire thing is a 'great unknown', using that logic.

They dont have to make their reasons public and that is their perogative. Do you tell the world the details of your business? Because I certainly dont. Now I agree that the reasons could maybe have been discussed with the two guys, but what actual difference would that make? They still wanted them out. In all likelihood we would just have had more meat for the journos to tear into in their articles when the details were inevitably leaked - the same way everything else has been leaked, both by the co board, certain players and the managers themselves. So in that respect, maybe it was the smartest thing they have done to date to say nothing? You are naive if you think the managers dont know 95% of what all this was over. They were there the same as all the players were.




Absolutely there isnt, so why were they so put out by it? Why did they take it so personally that players had different opinions to them? As for not accepting who was boss, I see no genuine evidence of that. I see details of players speaking with managers that are being spun a certain way by one side. We need more context on SOS' suggesting hennelly for example. Was he laying down the law or was he simply offering his opinion to the managers in a well meaning way? We are having an awful lot of blanks filled in for us in a quite deliberate way in this article. What I dont get is if it is this clear cut, why cant they just give us those details, rather than their narrative?




Alan Dillon wasnt in the team at any point though. Which, when you consider his influence against tyrone a year later, raises questions as regards their managerial ability. Could this lack of ability be a factor in the frustrations clearly evident in the players? Very likely I would imagine. You seem to have everything as a one way street. There are two sides to every story.


QUOTE=Robeman;102008189]Alan Dillon
Seamus O Shea
Aidan O Shea
Robbie Hennelly
Keith Higgins
I wonder why these were the ones singled out.

The same higgins who they named their vice captain?


QUOTE=Robeman;102008189]We don't win a lot in Mayo if fact we win so few national titles at senior level that believe it or not Pat Holmes is out most successful senior manager since 1951 having won a national league title and an under 21 title. So before belittling him less us remember that little fact.[/QUOTE]

Indeed. As we should remember that this group of players are the most committed, determined, consistant and by far the best group we have ever had, who have taken superior teams to the wire time and again and are feared and respected up and down the country. Before slating them at every turn and giving them zero slack, we should remember that fact also, shouldnt we? Or are you going down the martin breheny school of double standards route also?[/QUOTE]

Who can say if the votes were honestly counted except those who counted them. What I can say for definite is that no player put their name on the letter to County Board. This would have been place to have put your opinion on the managers out there publically.

If you fire someone in a job rule one is that you should have the character \ balls to tell them why they are being fired so that they are not left wondering and can move on with their lives.

Connolly \ Holmes were never told because if "egos" gave true reason we would have told them to get lost. TNevertheless I expect they know the real story like everyone else who has contacts in panel and county board.

Various "egos" did not want them because they did not worship them and treat them like little princes. The "egos" were allied to a number of non playing individuals (who were the brains of the operation) previously connected to Mayo football who their own agenda. Like all coups played out in the political world the coup was for the benefit of the conspirators and not for the benefit of the people (supporters in our case). Unfortunately (or fortunately if you are a mayo supporter) the coup did not fully succeed . SR was not the successor who was waiting in the wings to be crowned. The plotters did not see SR coming.

What is so special about the "egos" that it is just their opinion that has to count. I am sure that the other 15 \ 20 players on the panel who did not start each game all thought that they should have been playing as did the non starters for Dublin Kerry etc. It did not mean that they all went off organising a coup.

How many of the players exactly have won a national senior title, how many have an u21 title. Holmes has one of each as a manager.

The idea that this is the greates group of mayo players does not stand up what exactly have they won? NOTHING. The 50\51 team are the greatest mayo team ever bar none. The 36 team are next as in addition to an All Ireland they won 6 leagues in a row in 30ies which would have been 8 except that they withdrew from 1.

The current mayo team are not respected because they have won NOTHING. The only reason they are feared is that they might stop you winning an all ireland in any round up to the final.

Joe Brolly put it best when he said they were a bunch a celebrity losers. I call them the "Egos". We must remember they are a minority in the panel who SR needs to dump asap.

The county board has a lot to answer for. If it had any balls \ character it would have told panel "That ok guys if you are not happy we have another 40 guys will to put on the jersey".

We would not have won a all ireland last year with new panel but neither did we with the "egos"

Robeman

ProudDUB wrote: »

Dublin footballers don't embaress themselves in the media, because they understand the concepts of team work, hard work, loyalty and unity. It's not because they are being advised by professionals night and day. If you think character doesn't matter & its just about having the right handlers on the payroll, then you have an awful lot to learn about what it takes to win an All Ireland.

I heard a story that some years ago (I don't know how many) that they were rumblings of a rebellion in the Dublin panel after being knocked out of an all ireland campaign (dont know at what stage).

The county Chairman got wind of it so the story goes and met with the panel. At the meeting he thanked the panel for their services during campaign and told them that as all ireland campaign over Dublin no longer had a senior team panel but that manager would be picking a new one for the league in due course.

The team got the message and mutterings of rebellion died away.

Maybe its only a story and maybe its true. I cannot confirm one way or the other. If true it tells me one of the reasons Dublin is 2nd in the success charts.

Oh if only Mayo had a County Board Chairman with brains and balls.

NabyLadistheman

Do people honestly believe that the O'Shea's forced Rochford to put Henley in goals for the replay?!? Bonkers

ixus

Suarezistheman wrote: »

Do people honestly believe that the O'Shea's forced Rochford to put Henley in goals for the replay?!? Bonkers

I think forced is a strong word. Maybe there was a discussion whereby a player(s) felt that they could read the kickouts of Keeper A over Keeper B because they were on a better wavelength. That this might give the team the edge to win the match as there were only small margins in it.

It could have swayed the decision. I wouldn't really have an issue with that. All guess work.

kilns

One of the things I find crazy was that in mid season Aidan OShea was allowed to partake in the toughest trade programme.  If a Dublin player for example, requested to do it at that time of the year, they would either be laughed at or would never see a Dublin jersey again that summer.
I guess that is the difference between the two set ups
Player power never ends well.

MayoAreMagic

Who can say if the votes were honestly counted except those who counted them. What I can say for definite is that no player put their name on the letter to County Board.

Who is to say that the players didn't put their name on the letter? Were you there to see it? Who is to say, basically anything, if that is the attitude?
We can all go down that route if we want to.

SR was not the successor who was waiting in the wings to be crowned. The plotters did not see SR coming.

And who was? Rochford was the obvious candidate for everyone else, he was nailed on for the job and the only person nominated. You need to stop talking in riddles and actually say what you think.

The idea that this is the greates group of mayo players does not stand up what exactly have they won? NOTHING. The 50\51 team are the greatest mayo team ever bar none. The 36 team are next as in addition to an All Ireland they won 6 leagues in a row in 30ies which would have been 8 except that they withdrew from 1.

If they were to somehow come up against each other, the current team would hockey them. They are the best team ever. Not the most successful, but definitely the best.

The current mayo team are not respected because they have won NOTHING. The only reason they are feared is that they might stop you winning an all ireland in any round up to the final.

If that is what you think then you haven't a clue. Donegal were celebrating in 2014 when Kerry beat us.

Joe Brolly put it best when he said they were a bunch a celebrity losers. I call them the "Egos". We must remember they are a minority in the panel who SR needs to dump asap.

It is just a rant at this stage...



You don't seem interested in discussing the thing on its merits and with an open mind, so I don't see the point in continuing debating with you.

Also, you don't have to keep putting the word egos in inverted commas, its a genuine word...

NabyLadistheman

kilns wrote: »

One of the things I find crazy was that in mid season Aidan OShea was allowed to partake in the toughest trade programme.  If a Dublin player for example, requested to do it at that time of the year, they would either be laughed at or would never see a Dublin jersey again that summer.
I guess that is the difference between the two set ups
Player power never ends well.

Really hurt Tipp alright with Brendan Maher taking part. Not relevant imo

MayoAreMagic

ixus wrote: »

I think forced is a strong word. Maybe there was a discussion whereby a player(s) felt that they could read the kickouts of Keeper A over Keeper B because they were on a better wavelength. That this might give the team the edge to win the match as there were only small margins in it.

It could have swayed the decision. I wouldn't really have an issue with that. All guess work.

Which is completely reasonable to be fair. Good managers gauge the feeling in their squads, but gauging feeling is a lot different to players dictating the selection, which people seem determined to spin it into