Mayo GAA Discussion Part 2

Robeman

The great Colm has spoken

http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/if-hes-serious-about-being-a-top-footballer-he-has-to-put-football-first-colm-orourke-on-criticism-of-aidan-oshea-35311519.html

Robeman

The Great Martin speaks a second time

http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/martin-breheny-dont-lecture-holmes-and-connelly-on-loyalty-to-mayo-football-theyve-done-it-a-huge-service-35310475.html

Jaden

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

More grandstanding. It was a shoulder after the ball was gone - that isn't a red card in the rulebook.

The rulebook disagrees. You are trying to invent a rule here and attach buzzwords onto it for effect. I repeat, it was a yellow card offence in the rule book. Case closed.

If you don't wish to consider the action on Cooper as Cynical, and ergo a black card, so be it.

If going strictly by the rules, I feel that this is relevant.
5.17 To behave in any way which is dangerous to an opponent.

You may not feel the same way. You seem to have discounted the incident as neither dangerous or cynical. I would disagree, and see a very, very strong case for either, if not both.

I'll put it a different way, if a black card had been issued, would you think that unjust?

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Knock? Ravings. We can assume he was trying to get the guy in trouble by overplaying the incident and faking injury, he does this often. Again, I don't hold it against him, it was fair game.

That's not an assumption, that's an opinion. You are taking conjecture and attempting to pass it as fact. Neither of us understand fully he did what he did.

Let me state categorically, that I believe feigning injury has no place in our game. It seems you are OK with it, but I'm not.

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

But then I can point to James McCarthy blocking every run Doherty made up to this point as a factor in his actions also. He is a victim here too :rolleyes::rolleyes:.

The stuff some of you lads come out with is genuinely cringe-worthy.

And now we deviate from the incident in hand. Wandering off the point doesn't help.

I think this is about as far as we can reasonably take this, given the circumstances.

kilns

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

kilns wrote: »

To be fair the only cringe worthy thing is  blaming forces outside of Mayos control for consistently losing.  It is not the reason

Nobody claims it is the reason why we aren't the best team in the country, we are pointing out that we would have won a trophy - there is a difference there.

To be honest it is a fair observation for any objective gaa person. I think the way some Dublin fans seem to rage against this idea is what I find interesting. It seems to be down to an inability/unwillingness to give any other team any credit, if it means admitting that for a second, they weren't the better team or the best team or unmatched etc.

Like consider this - their opponents should have had a free in front of the posts for a nailed on technical foul in the last second of the game. Yet not one Dublin poster has been able to admit even a bit of luck on their part, or that their opponents were unlucky. I mean alarm bells should be ringing there man.
It is a strange quirk. It is reminiscent of that group of insufferable man utd fans that tended to not know that much about the team, or indeed football, but rather just jumped on their success and could see nothing else but their own team.

What one referee decision directly stopped Mayo winning a trophy, you can not say if X player got a black card in a game Mayo would have won etc.....
Unless Mayo had a legitimate goal or point ruled out the argument is invalid, there are too many variables to consider
Referees have been fooled by Cillian OConnor for years with his diving so Mayo too have had the rub of the green from Referees

MayoAreMagic

kilns wrote: »

What one referee decision directly stopped Mayo winning a trophy, you can not say if X player got a black card in a game Mayo would have won etc.....
Unless Mayo had a legitimate goal or point ruled out the argument is invalid, there are too many variables to consider
Referees have been fooled by Cillian OConnor for years with his diving so Mayo too have had the rub of the green from Referees

Normally I would say yes, but when it is a, literally, last second free in front of the posts in a tied match, I would say no. That decision literally does cost them the game.

As for Cillian O'Connor, he dives no more than most high level intercounty forwards - Diarmuid Connolly's dive in the replay being a case in point. However, that is beside the point.

Why didn't you respond to the points about Dublin in 2012 or Connolly? It isn't really fair to expect me to be responding to your points when you cherry pick what you want to respond to.

kilns

That last free you mentioned is not clear cut, any Mayo supporter would say it was definite free any Dublin supporter would say it wasnt.  That just biased eyes look at it.  A neutral would be hard pressed to make a clear call on it
COC dives alot more than other forwards, I would say he is the biggest cheat/expert at winning cheap frees off a referee
But all in all decisions with referees go for and against teams and in sport you make your own luck sometimes. If Mayo had at least one quality forward maybe they would not be blaming referees for consistently being second best.

MayoAreMagic

Jaden wrote: »

If you don't wish to consider the action on Cooper as Cynical, and ergo a black card, so be it.

I don't consider it cynical, I consider it a stupid act. Nor is it a black card in the rule book.

Jaden wrote: »

If going strictly by the rules, I feel that this is relevant.
5.17 To behave in any way which is dangerous to an opponent.

Then surely Connolly grabbing the Westmeath player in a headlock falls into this category also? We both know guys get shunted and dunted after the ball all the time. They aren't red cards and neither was this. You are showing yourself up with this point.

Jaden wrote: »

You may not feel the same way. You seem to have discounted the incident as neither dangerous or cynical. I would disagree, and see a very, very strong case for either, if not both.

Well your opinion is your own, but Im just sticking to the rule book. You don't get to redefine the rules with your feelings Im afraid. Maybe gaa isn't for you?

Jaden wrote: »

I'll put it a different way, if a black card had been issued, would you think that unjust?

100% unjust. Because it was a yellow card, not a black. Although a few minutes ago, you were claiming it was a red. So it is both a red and a black now? Stop digging man.

Jaden wrote: »

That's not an assumption, that's an opinion. You are taking conjecture and attempting to pass it as fact. Neither of us understand fully he did what he did.

I 100%, fully understand what he did. Because anyone who understands how the game works should be able to see that. Your admitting you cant kind of undermines your whole post.

Poor_old_gill

Lads the horror that some seem to be expressing upon reading criticism of Aidan O Shea is almost as dramatic as that of a modern day impression of a Victorian woman.

The lad has a lot of talent and has been threatening to scale the heights for a few years yet has not kicked on. This can be due to several factors but I'd imagine the many distractions/image building endeavours that he allows himself get caught up in cant help.

This kind of criticism of underutilised talent happens in every country, in every sport.

kilns

Poor_old_gill wrote: »

Lads the horror that some seem to be expressing upon reading criticism of Aidan O Shea is almost as dramatic as that of a modern day impression of a Victorian woman.

The lad has a lot of talent and has been threatening to scale the heights for a few years yet has not kicked on. This can be due to several factors but I'd imagine the many distractions/image building endeavours that he allows himself get caught up in cant help.

This kind of criticism of underutilised talent happens in every country, in every sport.

He consistently under performs on the big occassion for Mayo but the difference is would he ever be dropped?  He should have been for the replay imo. 
Who is Dublins most high profile player in the media - Bernard Brogan.  JG had no qualms dropping him for the good of the team because he was not performing

TCDStudent1

kilns wrote: »

He consistently under performs on the big occassion for Mayo but the difference is would he ever be dropped? He should have been for the replay imo.
Who is Dublins most high profile player in the media - Bernard Brogan. JG had no qualms dropping him for the good of the team because he was not performing

Its easy for JG to drop Brogan because he has such talent on the bench. Mayo drop A. O'Sé and they immediately have an issue on who would replace him.

Poor_old_gill

kilns wrote: »

He consistently under performs on the big occassion for Mayo but the difference is would he ever be dropped? He should have been for the replay imo.
Who is Dublins most high profile player in the media - Bernard Brogan. JG had no qualms dropping him for the good of the team because he was not performing

I agree completely- he should have been dropped for the replay

Poor_old_gill

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

Its easy for JG to drop Brogan because he has such talent on the bench. Mayo drop A. O'Sé and they immediately have an issue on who would replace him.

It's not like a controversial substitution, that had a huge impact on the game, wasnt made by Mayo!

TCDStudent1

Poor_old_gill wrote: »

It's not like a controversial substitution, that had a huge impact on the game, wasnt made by Mayo!

But who would you have picked instead of O'Sé? I do not see anybody on the bench that I would start ahead of him.

Jaden

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

I don't consider it cynical, I consider it a stupid act. Nor is it a black card in the rule book.

Cynical and Stupid are not mutually exclusive. I agree it was stupid, but I also see it as pretty much the definition of cynical behaviour. If you don't, that's OK.

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Then surely Connolly grabbing the Westmeath player in a headlock falls into this category also? We both know guys get shunted and dunted after the ball all the time. They aren't red cards and neither was this. You are showing yourself up with this point.

Probably, but irrelevant to the specific discussion. Let's try and stay on the topic.

You admit that it's a foul, but see nothing more in it. That's OK, I can't persuade you otherwise.

If this foul was cynical, which I believe it to be, and with good reason, then it's a black, not a red.

If it is *also* dangerous, then it's a red. Again, I will restate the blindsiding a player intentionally is dangerous, and merits a red.

We have both seen, on many occasions, more harsh punishments for less than happened here.

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Well your opinion is your own, but Im just sticking to the rule book. You don't get to redefine the rules with your feelings Im afraid. Maybe gaa isn't for you?

I don't think I'm redefining rules, Cynical = Black, Dangerous = Red. Do we at least agree that that is what the rules state?

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

100% unjust. Because it was a yellow card, not a black. Although a few minutes ago, you were claiming it was a red. So it is both a red and a black now? Stop digging man.

I'm not making that claim, I'm saying there is a case for either, if you disagree, fine. It's a discussion.

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

I 100%, fully understand what he did. Because anyone who understands how the game works should be able to see that. Your admitting you cant kind of undermines your whole post.

So there is a 0% Chance that either:
* He was hurt at all.
* He was playing down the clock to slow the game down.

That *seems* to be what you are saying, as you are 100% certain of your assertion, to the point that this is now a fact.

Asserting that you are absolutely certain of the explicit motivations of a player doesn't sound odd to you?

I don't think we're getting anywhere with this. There's probably two-sided reasoning to this though.

rrs

Have Mayo improved much since h&c departed.? They were nearly relegated in the League, beaten in Connacht. Stumbled past Fermanagh. Not convincing against Tyrone or Tip.

They played well in the finals but Dublin still won and Dublin were better in 2015, with McCaffrey and O Carroll.

Robeman

Poor_old_gill wrote: »

I agree completely- he should have been dropped for the replay

Who is to know might have happened as a result of this unthinkable idea. Let us allow our imagination run wild with an outlandish senario that would never happen in real life. This would only happen in fantasy land in a galaxy far far away. It would absolutely never happen in Mayo

Once upon a time

Aidan O Shea was dropped from Mayo team for an All Ireland final.

The "outside influences" would have a meeting with the "egos" and would suggest that they organise a players meeting in lets say the Breaffy club house.

At this meeting the "egos" would propose writing a letter to the county board requesting them to immediately terminate SR as manager and replacing him with a manager of the players choice who would not be subject to any approval or oversight by the county board. (As this is fiction I need to push out the boundry of what happen in real life last year).

After a very limited discussion the "egos" would insist on a secret vote to decide issue. They would distribute the ballot papers, collect and count them. Hey presto motion would be carried Zimbabwe election style.

Mayo county board would cave in as usual and a new manager would be appointed from among "outside influences" who would immediately put Aidan back in the team.

Unfortunately no matter how wild I try to make my imagination run Mayo still lose to Dublin or Kerry or Tyrone. I also tried Donegal, Cork, Meath and Galway but still they lose.

Nobody lived happily ever after.

The End

PARlance

Happy Christmas Folks.

Was almost tempted to reply to one or two items of horse**** but 'Tis The Season to be jolly and all that!

MayoAreMagic

kilns wrote: »

That last free you mentioned is not clear cut, any Mayo supporter would say it was definite free any Dublin supporter would say it wasnt. That just biased eyes look at it. A neutral would be hard pressed to make a clear call on it

He picks it off the ground. That is against the rules. Cant be any more clear cut. Your choosing to ignore that is your issue. It is a clear technical foul of the ball.

kilns wrote: »

COC dives alot more than other forwards, I would say he is the biggest cheat/expert at winning cheap frees off a referee

I have seen O'Connor go down when being fouled. Like every other forward. I have never once seen him dive i.e. go to ground under no contact -not once. You seem to not like him personally, which seems to be making you zero in on him.

kilns wrote: »

But all in all decisions with referees go for and against teams and in sport you make your own luck sometimes. If Mayo had at least one quality forward maybe they would not be blaming referees for consistently being second best.

You can repeat this rhetoric all you want, it doesn't change the fact that if the foul I have referenced is given - which it should have been - then there is a different all Ireland winner without question. That cant be said for any other incident definitively. That is why you refuse to engage on it, but rather skirt around it. Case closed.

Panrich

rrs wrote: »

Have Mayo improved much since h&c departed.? They were nearly relegated in the League, beaten in Connacht. Stumbled past Fermanagh. Not convincing against Tyrone or Tip.

They played well in the finals but Dublin still won and Dublin were better in 2015, with McCaffrey and O Carroll.

No. I think the team needs some new blood next year to keep up. A few of the AI winning U 21 team should be given an extended run in the league. I'm thinking Loftus, Hall and Irwin for a start. Let's see if they have the X factor.

Cartman78

Robeman;102034218
[quote=[/quote]
The "outside influences" would have a meeting with the "egos" 


I don't want to sound snarky, but could you please enlighten us as to who or what 'outside influences' you're referring to?

You're seemingly a lot closer to the issue than the rest of us on here so it would be helpful if you stopped talking in riddles and muddying the waters

Poor_old_gill

Cartman78 wrote: »

Robeman;102034218

The "outside influences" would have a meeting with the "egos"


I don't want to sound snarky, but could you please enlighten us as to who or what 'outside influences' you're referring to?

You're seemingly a lot closer to the issue than the rest of us on here so it would be helpful if you stopped talking in riddles and muddying the waters

Huh??

statto25

Cartman78 wrote: »

Robeman;102034218

The "outside influences" would have a meeting with the "egos"


I don't want to sound snarky, but could you please enlighten us as to who or what 'outside influences' you're referring to?

You're seemingly a lot closer to the issue than the rest of us on here so it would be helpful if you stopped talking in riddles and muddying the waters

I agree. Either you took a wild guess or you are close to someone involved with Mayo GAA and know whats going on behind the scenes. People are dismissive of your posts as they come across as "I know something you dont know" type of posts. If someone has confided in you and you are drip feeding info here then you are doing nothing to help any cause whether pro H&C or pro Player. Either spill or just stop the vague posts painting a "picture". I very rarely go on any type of rant on boards in my time on here but I enjoy Mayo football and reading opinions on this forum and its become very tedious this past few days.

charlie1980

I think we can take as gospel now that there is a small cabal of players within this Mayo group that have way too much influence.I am not sure if Rochford is up to lanceing that particular boil,The crazy decision to drop Clarke is evidence enough of that.

Will the O'Sheas,Dillon publically defend themselves? or maybe the players will issue a collective statement on the debacle.Keeping schtum and hoping the issue will go away is not really an option.A bad league campaign ,dumped out of the 2017 championship and the whole sordid episode will be dragged up again and used to slag them off.It's not fair but thats life.

One thing is for sure,this blood letting has gotta have an effect on the players.Their loyality and unity will be tested.

MayoAreMagic

charlie1980 wrote: »

I think we can take as gospel now that there is a small cabal of players within this Mayo group that have way too much influence.I am not sure if Rochford is up to lanceing that particular boil,The crazy decision to drop Clarke is evidence enough of that.

No we cant.
Repeat it all you want. It isn't the case.

charlie1980

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

No we cant.
Repeat it all you want. It isn't the case.

Are you saying Homes and Connelly are liars?

MayoAreMagic

charlie1980 wrote: »

Are you saying Homes and Connelly are liars?

No Im saying you have ulterior motives and are kinda full of s*** on this topic.

Dublin fan?

casscass4444

PARlance wrote: »

Happy Christmas Folks.

Was almost tempted to reply to one or two items of horse**** but 'Tis The Season to be jolly and all that!

Rumour has it that you were going to reply,but the O'Sheas got to you first and "EGO" whooped you into not replying.also heard that any of your future replies have to be typed by hennelly on a breaffy broadband connection.

charlie1980

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

No Im saying you have ulterior motives and are kinda full of s*** on this topic.

Dublin fan?

Why are you so angry?I never debate with anyone on a topic that is emotional.This is my last reply to you.Have a good day sir.

seligehgit

Bambi wrote: »

Because its the same old same carry on, ignore the many decisions that went mayos way and then focus on one that would have "changed the game" for Mayo. You'll always get decisions for and against you in competitive finals. Mayo get off the hook with refs just as much as other big teams. But ignore that and think that Mayo would have won only for *insert excuse*. Repeat times ten since 2013 and never actually ask the hard question: why is it this team can't beat Dublin. Looks like some Mayo players prefer to make excuses too. Long may it continue BTW

Who's making excuses?The vast majority of Mayo fans realise that if we were good enough we'd have proverbially brought the bacon home.One gets some decisions and one doesn't get some.It's not going to change the result mulling over the ones that don't go one's way and it isn't going to change the result.So to answer your question we have not been good enough to beat Dublin in those ten contests.

Ditto I haven't heard any Mayo players making any excuses?

It seems like the fact that we haven't won an All Ireland in spite of many attempts is used as a stick to beat us with and with a good dash of gloating and begrudgery thrown in.

Best of luck to Dublin,Kerry or any other county that is fortunate to win an All Ireland,it shouldn't be used as reason to rub the noses of those less fortunate in it.

MayoAreMagic

charlie1980 wrote: »

Why are you so angry?I never debate with anyone on a topic that is emotional.This is my last reply to you.Have a good day sir.

I think you are mistaking directness for anger.

charlie1980

Btw I think Breheny played a blinder on this one.He did what all good journalist do,he got the story.It's very telling that Holmes and Connelly did not give their views to the Mayo news or Gulligan's Mayo blog.Maybe they thought they would not get a fair hearing.

Outsiders and all that?

seligehgit

charlie1980 wrote: »

Btw I think Breheny played a blinder on this one.He did what all good journalist do,he got the story.It's very telling that Holmes and Connelly did not give their views to the Mayo news or Gulligan's Mayo blog.Maybe they thought they would not get a fair hearing.

Outsiders and all that?

TBH I think the Mayo News gave a relatively balanced reporting of both sides of the argument.

I have little in the way of knowledge re John Mulligan's Mayo blog.

charlie1980

seligehgit wrote: »

TBH I think the Mayo News gave a relatively balanced reporting of both sides of the argument.

I have little in the way of knowledge re John Mulligan's Mayo blog.

Billy Joe Padden?He's not exactly leadership material but I do accept he played the game.If you read the article he's trying to run with the hounds and the hare.The cabal(cancer) within this Mayo group has to be addressed.Billy knows where his bread is buttered and will steer clear of that,thank you very much.

Mayo football is in a state of flux and this issue will not go away.

seligehgit

charlie1980 wrote: »

Billy Joe Padden?He's not exactly leadership material but I do accept he played the game.If you read the article he's trying to run with the hounds and the hare.The cabal(cancer) within this Mayo group has to be addressed.Billy knows where his bread is buttered and will steer clear of that,thank you very much.

Mayo football is in a state of flux and this issue will not go away.

I thought his article was diplomatic but ultimately came down on the side of the players.

Edwin McGreal was firmly on the side of the players.

If there are any issues it is for the management to deal with same.

charlie1980

Billy Joe is a nice guy,the best I can say,he means well and I dont think anyone that knows him will disagree with that.

The vote was 27-7 in favour of getting rid of Holmes and Connelly.A cabal of players after the Dublin defeat in 1915(that night) decided it was good idea to shaft them.Honestly?how many of the 27 felt they had to go with it.Billy Joe would know what it is like in a dressing room.When your a young fella,you keep your mouth shut,all you want to do is make the team.

seligehgit

charlie1980 wrote: »

Billy Joe is a nice guy,the best I can say,he means well and I dont think anyone that knows him will disagree with that.

The vote was 27-7 in favour of getting rid of Holmes and Connelly.A cabal of players after the Dublin defeat in 1915(that night) decided it was good idea to shaft them.Honestly?how many of the 27 felt they had to go with it.Billy Joe would know what it is like in a dressing room.When your a young fella,you keep your mouth shut,all you want to do is make the team.

I agree with your sentiments re Billy Joe and the group dynamics of a dressing room.

I've no idea when and how the heave evolved but I would agree with you that any notion of player power if it truly did/does exist must be eradicated.

ammc

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

The article said that the O'Sheas lobbied for Hennelly to be the goalkeeper back in spring 2015 because they preferred his kickouts.

If I recall the talk some time after the final was that it was Tony McEntee that was the originator of the keeper change idea

Another fall guy? Now who started that whispering campaign about McEntee?

charlie14

ammc wrote: »

Another fall guy? Now who started that whispering campaign about McEntee?

If you are going to point a finger in a whispering campaign, first choice is always the outsider it appears.

Supernintento Chalmers

Where does Keith Higgins quitting the team during 2016 fit in with the rest of this debacle?

Stoner

MayoAreMagic wrote:

More grandstanding. It was a shoulder after the ball was gone - that isn't a red card in the rulebook.

It was more than that and you know it.
He could easily have walked for it and you'd all be mad with him for doing something that got him sent off in front of the officials.
He was lucky to stay on but that's all we can say about it or its potential outcome, but it was more than a shoulder off the ball, that suggests a late tackle.

seligehgit

Supernintento Chalmers wrote: »

Where does Keith Higgins quitting the team during 2016 fit in with the rest of this debacle?

News to me?

wirelessdude01

Supernintento Chalmers wrote:

Where does Keith Higgins quitting the team during 2016 fit in with the rest of this debacle?

???

mayo.mick

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

???

That "tweet"

TCDStudent1

mayo.mick wrote: »

That "tweet"

Eh, what tweet?

mayo.mick

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

Eh, what tweet?

Couple of months back, think that's what their're on about.

seligehgit

mayo.mick wrote: »

That "tweet"

Ah that jokey tweet on the bus with the Ballyhaunis lads around Christmas time last year.

seligehgit

David Clarke has most certainly not retired.

'I am back in already' - Mayo All Star goalkeeper Clarke on the competition for number one jersey in 2017

http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/i-am-back-in-already-mayo-all-star-goalkeeper-clarke-on-the-competition-for-number-one-jersey-in-2017-35313542.html

It is great to see Castlebar Mitchels netminder Ruairi Byrne on the panel too.

Supernintento Chalmers

seligehgit wrote: »

Ah that jokey tweet on the bus with the Ballyhaunis lads around Christmas time last year.

No, he quit but was persuaded to come back.
At the time I thought it was maybe over distaste at what happened to H&C, but with all that has come out, who knows?

It's amazing Mayo got as far as they did this year, considering all the drama that was going on.

Fr Tod Umptious

Supernintento Chalmers wrote: »

No, he quit but was persuaded to come back.
At the time I thought it was maybe over distaste at what happened to H&C, but with all that has come out, who knows?

It's amazing Mayo got as far as they did this year, considering all the drama that was going on.

Maybe because there was far less drama going on than people like to make out.

seligehgit

Supernintento Chalmers wrote: »

No, he quit but was persuaded to come back.
At the time I thought it was maybe over distaste at what happened to H&C, but with all that has come out, who knows?

It's amazing Mayo got as far as they did this year, considering all the drama that was going on.

OK I personally most certainly did not hear that.I am not sure what there's to be gained by revealing what may have been a personal decision by Keith Higgins and where there may not have been any ulterior motive.TBH I believe that us keyboard warriors do not need nor deserve to know all the interior dynamics of the Mayo setup.Leaks like the goalkeeper switch on the morning of the All Ireland should not be occurring.