Mayo GAA Discussion Part 2

PressRun

I think Doherty could be in a spot of trouble this year. He is a hard worker and does a lot of the unglamourous work, but we have too many of those tbh, and forwards need to score. He doesn't, not anymore anyway.

I'd like to see Diarmuid doing less of the up and down the field stuff too. While he is great for that and has a massive engine, he's also good for a score. He nearly created a goal out of nothing when he came on against Monaghan last week and set up another great attacking move against Kerry last night. I think he needs to be utilised in a proper attacking way, rather than moulding him into another all-rounder. Same with Cillian.

What do people think of Conor O'Shea? The jury's still out on him for me. He was completely out of steam in the second half yesterday and should have been subbed at the break, imo. At times it looked like his head wasn't even in it, never mind the body.

seligehgit

PressRun wrote: »

I think Doherty could be in a spot of trouble this year. He is a hard worker and does a lot of the unglamourous work, but we have too many of those tbh, and forwards need to score. He doesn't, not anymore anyway.

I'd like to see Diarmuid doing less of the up and down the field stuff too. While he is great for that and has a massive engine, he's also good for a score. He nearly created a goal out of nothing when he came on against Monaghan last week and set up another great attacking move against Kerry last night. I think he needs to be utilised in a proper attacking way, rather than moulding him into another all-rounder. Same with Cillian.

What do people think of Conor O'Shea? The jury's still out on him for me. He was completely out of steam in the second half yesterday and should have been subbed at the break, imo. At times it looked like his head wasn't even in it, never mind the body.

As you say the jury is very much out on Conor O Shea,he's an awful tendency go down blind alleys or across the pitch with little end result.He's not threatening the scoreboard enough and appears reticent to take shots out of risk of failure,pass the responsibility for same.

Blackjack

seligehgit wrote: »

As you say the jury is very much out on Conor O Shea,he's an awful tendency go down blind alleys or across the pitch with little end result.He's not threatening the scoreboard enough and appears reticent to take shots out of risk of failure,pass the responsibility for same.

I dunno, I think he covers an awful amount of ground and aside from a few occasions where he does run himself into a corner and have little in the way of support, I thought he was good enough to warrant his start last night. He's the pacier of the 3 brother and he's well able to field a ball, and with the mark rule that's something quite positive. He's ahead of Kirby for a starting place in my book, but I'll be quite honest in saying Kirby has a bit more to prove to me for me to believe he's Intercounty Championship standard.
Conor Probably should have scored a goal when he got the point but I thought his passing and movement were both quite strong. I think he has a lot of potential, whether we get to see it all is quite another story.

PARlance

Despite not being a fan, I think there's a part to play for Freeman, Donerty & Conor O'S. It's not a starting spot and they probably play a bigger role once you hit Croke Park, i.e when you might need that physicality and athleticism late on in a game on the bigger faster pitch.

2 out of the 3 of them is probably enough in the squad though.

TCDStudent1

PARlance wrote: »

Despite not being a fan, I think there's a part to play for Freeman, Donerty & Conor O'S. It's not a starting spot and they probably play a bigger role once you hit Croke Park, i.e when you might need that physicality and athleticism late on in a game on the bigger faster pitch.

2 out of the 3 of them is probably enough in the squad though.

If you were to drop Doherty from last years starting AI 6 forwards, who would you replace him with?

PARlance

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

If you were to drop Doherty from last years starting AI 6 forwards, who would you replace him with?

Tbh, the more I'm thinking about it (I mentioned the same last week), the following is the line up I would be aiming for:

Keegan(?), McLoughs, DO'C
AO'S, CO'C

With the 6th being a sweeper. On the inside, the rest of the league and early championship would be dedicated to making Aidan a full forward. Cillian to stay as close to the goal as possible. Andy there as an impact sub.

McLoughs is NOT a sweeper imo, he is a valuable attacking option and if he could rediscover his form of a few years ago, would be like a new attacking addition. Diarmuid needs to do more of his work where it will hurt. Keegan would be a bold, bold and maybe crazy move but I wouldn't fancy picking him up. (Durcan could be an option vs the Dubs if you wanted Keegan to dominate DC as usual )

I think that half forward line would cause plenty of headaches, with the 2 lads running and McLoughs pulling the strings. If O'Shea and O'Connor "clicked" on the inside it could be massive.

So, in effect, I'm the only Mayo man saying that we don't need a new forward or two

I've come to this mainly because I don't see the "something missing" being solved by any of last years squad (Regan, Donerty, Freeman etc) and I think it's a year or two too soon to be looking for last years U21's for a saviour.

TCDStudent1

PARlance wrote: »

Tbh, the more I'm thinking about it (I mentioned the same last week), the following the line up I would be aiming for:

Keegan(?), McLoughs, DO'C
AO'S, CO'C

With the 6th being a sweeper. On the inside, the rest of the league and early championship would be dedicated to making Aidan a full forward. Cillian to stay as close to the goal as possible. Andy there as an impact sub.

McLoughs is a sweeper imo, he is a valuable attacking option and if he could rediscover his form of a few years ago, would be like a new attacking addition. Diarmuid needs to do more of his work where it will hurt. Keegan would be a bold, bold and maybe crazy move but I wouldn't fancy picking him up.

I think that half forward line would cause plenty of headaches, with the 2 lads running and McLoughs pulling the strings. If O'Shea and O'Connor "clicked" on the inside it could be massive.

So, in effect, I'm the only Mayo man saying that we don't need a new forward or two

I've come to this mainly because I don't see the "something missing" being solved by any of last years squad (Regan, Donerty, Freeman etc) and I think it's a year or two too soon to be looking for last years U21's for a saviour.

Moving Keegan into the forwards would be a very bold move indeed!

It's not going to happen though. Keegan role last year was to man mark and negate the oppositions main man - Walsh for Galway, cavanagh for Tyrone, Connolly for Dublin. Was he marking Quinlivan v Tipp? He excelled so much at this role that I doubt it will change this year.

PARlance

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

Moving Keegan into the forwards would be a very bold move indeed!

It's not going to happen though. Keegan role last year was to man mark and negate the oppositions main man - Walsh for Galway, cavanagh for Tyrone, Connolly for Dublin. Was he marking Quinlivan v Tipp? He excelled so much at this role that I doubt it will change this year.

Yip, I agree. It is madness on paper and it's madness in my own head, he's the best man marker in the game.

I would still give it a shot though, if he was half as effective as a HF then it might be the little extra that's needed. We have plenty of options behind them and from the talent coming through, it's defensive talent that seems to be there first.

Durcan could be someone that is advanced but I would favour being bold and trying Keegan there once he returns. On the other hand, if Durcan continues the way he's going, he could be an able deputy for Keegan's man marking role.

MayoAreMagic

naughto wrote: »

Doherty has being rubbish for a long time now he's had plenty of chances same with freeman

Doherty had a very good game in the drawn all Ireland final and gave Dublin a fair bit of trouble... They even assigned James McCarthy to man mark him in the replay... That is one more good game than Aidan O'Shea had last year. Why isn't there a rush to dismiss him?

Some games do tend to pass him by - Im not denying that, but he has had some good performances too and he should get credit for them. Doherty would start for me. The thing is, the guys coming behind him aren't noticeably better, and Doherty has a lot of experience of big games and is coming into his prime as a player..
There isn't much point going through the hard yards developing a guy, only to drop him for someone younger who is much the same as regards quality, and then go through the hard yards with him too..

The thing with Doherty, he is a bit like Donnacha Walsh, not a huge scorer, but smart, a great work ethic, maybe lacking a yard of pace but has a touch of cuteness to him too, hidden behind a baby face and clean reputation (which shouldn't be underestimated - Walsh is one of the most cynical players in the game, but never gets caught). The difference with Walsh is he is surrounded with heavy scorers, so doesn't get the flak for not scoring as much. We don't have that, so Doherty gets it in the neck. The real issue is that guys AOS, Cillian O'Connor etc are not scoring as much from play as their counterparts from other counties...

TCDStudent1

PARlance wrote: »

Yip, I agree. It is madness on paper and it's madness in my own head, he's the best man marker in the game.

I would still give it a shot though, if he was half as effective as a HF then it might be the little extra that's needed. We have plenty of options behind them and from the talent coming through, it's defensive talent that seems to be there first.

Durcan could be someone that is advanced but I would favour being bold and trying Keegan there once he returns. On the other hand, if Durcan continues the way he's going, he could be an able deputy for Keegan's man marking role.

Well you're certainly thinking outside the box! If I was manager, I wouldn't change Keegans position though.

I would like to see Diarmuid O'Conor tried close to goal in the league. I think he has a scoring threat but too often is down near his own goal when playing in half forward line. He is great at carrying the ball. But I think Mayo could potentially get more scores out of him if he played in full forward line.

PressRun

Cillian needs to be more available up front. Our attacks were being channelled through Andy Moran against Kerry because all too often Cillian was up the field doing other work. Cillian is smart enough to play the all-rounder role, but I still think he is better closer to goal. He used to be a goal-scoring threat once upon a time.

Keegan is fine as is. He is best when running from the back.

PARlance

Can't argue with that, I don't think I agree with my own logic. Just think it's too soon to be hoping for an u21 saviour and the fringe fowards haven't shown enough to demand a place.

Hoping we give the Rossies a nice beating and Rochford can start to experiment a little. I'm expecting something a little left field from him and I think that's our best hope.

NabyLadistheman

Harsh critique of Conor. I thought he put in a good shift overall. A bit more confidence & he would have buried that goal chance.

Panrich

I'm really impressed with Boland so far. A very clever footballer who seems to have a great eye for a pass. It'll be interesting to see how he develops for the rest of the league.

eastmayo

Dose anyone no if westports game is on tv next Sunday?

seligehgit

eastmayo wrote: »

Dose anyone no if westports game is on tv next Sunday?

http://www.localstreaming.club/finalpr/

Fr Tod Umptious

There is a discussion going on in the Roscommon thread about our former All Star player and hero to many a young lad in the 80s and 90s, and his influence on the Roscommon training setup, and it once again convinces me that we dodged a bullet big time by not giving the managers job the guys brother in law a few years back.

For all the drama of H & C it could have been a whole lot worse.

Oh and I'm posting this here rather than there because I'm being a good boy and respecting the "do not post here again" warning I got there last summer.

naughto

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

There is a discussion going on in the Roscommon thread about our former All Star player and hero to many a young lad in the 80s and 90s, and his influence on the Roscommon training setup, and it once again convinces me that we dodged a bullet big time by not giving the managers job the guys brother in law a few years back.

For all the drama of H & C it could have been a whole lot worse.

Oh and I'm posting this here rather than there because I'm being a good boy and respecting the "do not post here again" warning I got there last summer.

I get that warning most times I post in there

seligehgit

James Durcan,Cian Costello,Cathal Carolan, Gareth O Donnell and David Kenny have been released back to their clubs and will play no further part in the Mayo Senior panel for 2017.

Good news,Aidan O Shea is I believe training with the squad tonight.

RD10

i'd like to see how we can manage without aidan o shea. be good for the others to get as much experience as possible.

km79

http://www.mayonews.ie/sports/29480-freeman-leaves-mayo-senior-squad

Also mentioned they are probably appealing parsons red

Audioslaven

RD10 wrote: »

i'd like to see how we can manage without aidan o shea. be good for the others to get as much experience as possible.

This depends on the strategy for O'Shea. I believe he offers Mayo the most in FF. I believe this as he needs to be watched by defenders and as a result their influence further out the field is reduced. it should also free up the other forwards a bit also

The problem is that we don't know how to deliver proper ball into him and the other forwards don'k know how to feed off him properly
Also, last year, he was not playing well and didn't track back as much as he used to so in turn it made the whole debate with O'Sea at FF go on and on.

If one of the strategies is to start him in FF, they need to get him in now to start feeding him properly with the right ball and try to get some consistency in our play with O'Shea at FF. Also it will give us the opportunity to look at alternatives when he is double marked like the Galway game last year.

seligehgit

km79 wrote: »

http://www.mayonews.ie/sports/29480-freeman-leaves-mayo-senior-squad

Also mentioned they are probably appealing parsons red

I'm very sorry to hear that as Alan Freeman has given great service to the county,having said that I'm not entirely surprised given his struggles to attain a starting position.

TCDStudent1

seligehgit wrote: »

I'm very sorry to hear that as Alan Freeman has given great service to the county,having said that I'm not entirely surprised given his struggles to attain a starting position.

When he came on the scene first, I thought he was total quality. He never quite got going though. Probably a mixture of poor form, not taking his opportunities when given to them, managers not showing enough faith in him (e.g. being first man taken off when things not going well, or leaving it too late to bring him on). In the last couple of years, it looked like he was good enough to be on the edge of the squad but nothing more. And at his age, that is not a nice place to be.

Blackjack

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

When he came on the scene first, I thought he was total quality. He never quite got going though. Probably a mixture of poor form, not taking his opportunities when given to them, managers not showing enough faith in him (e.g. being first man taken off when things not going well, or leaving it too late to bring him on). In the last couple of years, it looked like he was good enough to be on the edge of the squad but nothing more. And at his age, that is not a nice place to be.

That's a fair reflection in my view. Struck me as perhaps being a bit too "nice" at times, easily pushed off the ball. He was certainly capable on his day, but that hasn't been seen for a few years now to be honest.

seligehgit

Silly me,I couldn't open the link before posting.He is leaving the panel for the time being due to work commitments.So difficult for modern players to balance work and play commitments.

TCDStudent1

seligehgit wrote: »

Silly me,I couldn't open the link before posting.He is leaving the panel for the time being due to work commitments.So difficult for modern players to balance work and play commitments.

Yeah, but do you think he would be leaving if he thought he would be starting for Mayo this year? Somehow, I doubt he would be leaving if that was the case.

seligehgit

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

Yeah, but do you think he would be leaving if he thought he would be starting for Mayo this year? Somehow, I doubt he would be leaving if that was the case.

An emphatic no.:D

Fr Tod Umptious

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

When he came on the scene first, I thought he was total quality. He never quite got going though. Probably a mixture of poor form, not taking his opportunities when given to them, managers not showing enough faith in him (e.g. being first man taken off when things not going well, or leaving it too late to bring him on). In the last couple of years, it looked like he was good enough to be on the edge of the squad but nothing more. And at his age, that is not a nice place to be.

I think everyone thought he had cracked it in the 2013 SF when Cillian went off and he stepped up.

Then he was pulled in the final after 20mins for whatever reason and he has not been the same since.

But I'll always remember his contribution to the 2014 QF v Cork.

Cork were coming back at Mayo in the second half and Freeman fought like a lunatic for a ball that others would have given up on over on the Hogan stand side that a few seconds later lead the a Mayo goal.

It was one of the highlights of the year.

km79

A senior player who owes the county nothing leaves panel as he is based in Dublin and can't be guaranteed game time .......Didn't that happen a few years ago under James Horan too???????

PressRun

Not totally surprised at Freeman choosing to leave. His work sounds busy and it would be hard to commit and put in the effort if there is no guarantee of a starting place.

yop

Shame to see Freezer leave, never utilized fully. I think that sub in 2013 ruined his confidence, seems to be very much a confidence player. Think he owes us nothing, stuck with it and between lack of opportunity and form just didn't seem to crack it.
Its a pity that the jobs aren't here to keep the lads. Then again that is the state of the region and its not just affecting Mayo players.

Can only wish him luck.

Gael85

Is Freeman transferring to St Vincents?

Kalyke

yop wrote: »

Shame to see Freezer leave, never utilized fully. I think that sub in 2013 ruined his confidence, seems to be very much a confidence player. Think he owes us nothing, stuck with it and between lack of opportunity and form just didn't seem to crack it.
Its a pity that the jobs aren't here to keep the lads. Then again that is the state of the region and its not just affecting Mayo players.

Can only wish him luck.

Does he not work with Jame Horan in Ballina?

yop

Kalyke wrote: »

Does he not work with Jame Horan in Ballina?

Sorry I must have misread that his role was in Dublin.

seligehgit

Kalyke wrote: »

Does he not work with Jame Horan in Ballina?

The Mayo News article mentioned he was based in Dublin and some of his work was taking him abroad.

Totally agree with Yop,I think that mystifying substitution in the 2013 All Ireland final affected his confidence significantly,never recovered from same.Very talented player,very much a confidence player with a talent probably not fulfilled.

MayoAreMagic

seligehgit wrote: »

Totally agree with Yop,I think that mystifying substitution in the 2013 All Ireland final affected his confidence significantly,never recovered from same.Very talented player,very much a confidence player with a talent probably not fulfilled.

Hmmm... Player loses all faith in their ability forever-more after being subbed - Bit of a stretch in fairness.
Maybe he wasn't as good as people wanted him to be for that big 2013 moaning session about horan taking him off, and his subsequent performances and non-selection under several managers back this up...

I always get a kick out of these theories people come up with before they consider contemplating that they themselves might be the ones that were wrong!

Blackjack

yop wrote: »

Sorry I must have misread that his role was in Dublin.

He does work in Dublin, for Veolia I think. He's been training with Parnells for a while I believe, not sure if he has transferred club yet.

yop

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Hmmm... Player loses all faith in their ability forever-more after being subbed - Bit of a stretch in fairness.
Maybe he wasn't as good as people wanted him to be for that big 2013 moaning session about horan taking him off, and his subsequent performances and non-selection under several managers back this up...

I always get a kick out of these theories people come up with before they consider contemplating that they themselves might be the ones that were wrong!

The irony in that statement!

MayoAreMagic

yop wrote: »

The irony in that statement!

Far from it man. Im simply looking at the thing objectively - no manager went with him and he never really done well in the chances he did get. Trying to say that this is down to a reaction to being subbed in one game 4 years ago is nonsense as far as Im concerned. Can every guy who didn't make an impression claim that one? Where does that end? The reality is if a guy was that precious he wouldn't be in an inter county squad in the first place.

I don't want to be knocking him, but you have to be honest about it - what performances did he actually deliver? Some good free-taking against tyrone in 2013? A few decent flashes of play against cork? Fair play to him for that, but the cold hard fact is that isn't enough.

Man on Fire

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Far from it man. Im simply looking at the thing objectively - no manager went with him and he never really done well in the chances he did get. Trying to say that this is down to a reaction to being subbed in one game 4 years ago is nonsense as far as Im concerned. Can every guy who didn't make an impression claim that one? Where does that end? The reality is if a guy was that precious he wouldn't be in an inter county squad in the first place.

I don't want to be knocking him, but you have to be honest about it - what performances did he actually deliver? Some good free-taking against tyrone in 2013? A few decent flashes of play against cork? Fair play to him for that, but the cold hard fact is that isn't enough.

Fair point... a good player but not up to all ireland material in my eyes

yop

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Far from it man. Im simply looking at the thing objectively - no manager went with him and he never really done well in the chances he did get. Trying to say that this is down to a reaction to being subbed in one game 4 years ago is nonsense as far as Im concerned. Can every guy who didn't make an impression claim that one? Where does that end? The reality is if a guy was that precious he wouldn't be in an inter county squad in the first place.

I don't want to be knocking him, but you have to be honest about it - what performances did he actually deliver? Some good free-taking against tyrone in 2013? A few decent flashes of play against cork? Fair play to him for that, but the cold hard fact is that isn't enough.

I would have taken you seriously until you said the only game he delivered in was 2013!!!


This is a good article.
http://mayogaablog.com/?p=20202#comment-110314

RD10

Thanks to alan for the effort and commitment he has put in with mayo down the years. it's still sad to see him go.
I'm sure it was a very difficult decision for him to make to step away after being involved with this mayo team for so long, and in an era for mayo where weve been so close to the holy grail. some of the best days for us supporters and im sure alan and the boys.
some people dont realise the huge commitment it takes to play for your county, especially in this day and age where its at such a professional level.
It feels as if he never got a proper run at it for whatever reasons their might have been. felt there was more in him, but he's right to put his career first and good luck to him.

MayoAreMagic

yop wrote: »

I would have taken you seriously until you said the only game he delivered in was 2013!!!


This is a good article.
http://mayogaablog.com/?p=20202#comment-110314

I read the article, but Im not seeing what you are referencing. Im talking about delivering good scoring and ball-winning performances when faced with top level opposition like any high level full forward is supposed to do, i.e. Kerry, Cork, Tyrone, Dublin, Donegal. Any of the forwards in our squad can deliver against the likes of Longford and Sligo so that doesn't prove he should be in the team. We both know that isn't what I am talking about. Would he have put on the performance Moran did down in Kerry? Therein lies your answer.

Im not wanting to be down on the guy, but Im not accepting this thing where we let sentiment re-write history either. And what was suggested regarding the substitution is definitely in that category. In any other walk of life, if a guy is subbed, and subsequently doesn't really make a mark for the next four years, we would turn around and say, actually that manager might have been right after all. Yet here, what occurs is an obscure tale about the guy losing confidence from that point and never regaining it for the rest of his playing time, is concocted. I actually think that is a little insulting to the guy.

boosabum

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Hmmm... Player loses all faith in their ability forever-more after being subbed - Bit of a stretch in fairness.
Maybe he wasn't as good as people wanted him to be for that big 2013 moaning session about horan taking him off, and his subsequent performances and non-selection under several managers back this up...

I always get a kick out of these theories people come up with before they consider contemplating that they themselves might be the ones that were wrong!

Unfortunately, i think part of the 2013 thinking or indeed planning is that he would have challenged Cluxton aggressively in the opening stages of the game in terms of contesting high balls and possible upset him in the manner by maybe being over eager and leaving a little bit on him. My own belief is that he got caught between two stools as the delivery into him was neither under the cross bar for him to make his challenges or lofted enough for him to get over above his man

seligehgit

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Hmmm... Player loses all faith in their ability forever-more after being subbed - Bit of a stretch in fairness.
Maybe he wasn't as good as people wanted him to be for that big 2013 moaning session about horan taking him off, and his subsequent performances and non-selection under several managers back this up...

I always get a kick out of these theories people come up with before they consider contemplating that they themselves might be the ones that were wrong!

Fair enough that was more than a grain of supposition in my contention that he'd never recovered his confidence post that substitution but he'd played very well that year most especially against Tyrone.I do not believe he ever played as well in the years after said substitution(my opinion).Alan Freeman in my opinion was playing very well on said day and I could'nt understand why he was substituted,pretty normal observation...no big conspiracy.I did not espouse any of the theories that were circulating at the time re the substitution?

I stand by my contention that he's very much a confidence player and did'nt possibly fulfill his potential.Having said that he most probably is'nt a good enough starting player if we're going to finally win an All Ireland.

yop

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

I read the article, but Im not seeing what you are referencing. Im talking about delivering good scoring and ball-winning performances when faced with top level opposition like any high level full forward is supposed to do, i.e. Kerry, Cork, Tyrone, Dublin, Donegal. Any of the forwards in our squad can deliver against the likes of Longford and Sligo so that doesn't prove he should be in the team. We both know that isn't what I am talking about. Would he have put on the performance Moran did down in Kerry? Therein lies your answer.

Im not wanting to be down on the guy, but Im not accepting this thing where we let sentiment re-write history either. And what was suggested regarding the substitution is definitely in that category. In any other walk of life, if a guy is subbed, and subsequently doesn't really make a mark for the next four years, we would turn around and say, actually that manager might have been right after all. Yet here, what occurs is an obscure tale about the guy losing confidence from that point and never regaining it for the rest of his playing time, is concocted. I actually think that is a little insulting to the guy.

Point on the sub, he had a super semi, was MOM, yet in the final it was strange, am sure it didn't help him. You will find many examples of players who lost confidence and didn't regain it or couldn't play under a manager. Its not a myth or an excuse. It happens.

Okay so he didn't score against the big teams...
In 2014 he was our top League scorer. He scored 4.22 from 5 games. Against Kerry in he scored 1.5. Against Derry he scored 2.6 in the first game and 6 points in the second. Derry lost the final that year.
He had already accumulated 1.1 from playing in 2 games in the FBD. He started 2 games in the Championship. Why this was I don’t have the knowledge. He came on as sub in 3 other games. He didn’t score in the starts. He did as sub in one.
In 2015 he started 3 games in the league. He scored 2 goals in all games started and subbed. In championship he didn’t start a game, came on in 3. Scored 2 points.
Last year he started 2 league games and scored 5 points. Championship he started 1 games, returned 1 goal. Sub in 2 and scored a point.

So aside from 2013, scored 2-23 and 2014 where he had his best. Across 2015 and 2016 he has seen 6 game starts and 5 sub games. Scoring 3.9.
For a lad who got little game time then he return to pitch time ratio is pretty high. Games build confidence, hard for the lad to have any with that sort of a return. I’d like to see the stats for AOS etc.

As I said, best of luck to him.

MayoAreMagic

seligehgit wrote: »

Fair enough that was more than a grain of supposition in my contention that he'd never recovered his confidence post that substitution but he'd played very well that year most especially against Tyrone.I do not believe he ever played as well in the years after said substitution(my opinion).Alan Freeman in my opinion was playing very well on said day and I could'nt understand why he was substituted,pretty normal observation...no big conspiracy.I did not espouse any of the theories that were circulating at the time re the substitution?

Here is what I would like to delve into for a second. First off, the idea that a guy loses confidence and then never plays to his real ability again, is fanciful in the extreme, and reads like a really bad excuse a poor club player who always sees himself as a victim would come up with - I hasten to add freeman himself has never been guilty of that, it is the fans who are pushing it.

Second, what did he do so well against tyrone? Kick frees in COC's absence? Score a penalty he wasn't involved in winning? So basically, a deadball kicker. Well fair play for that, but we have a better one of those. Did he actually do a whole lot from play in this game? I think we are guilty of seeing this performance through rose tinted glasses to some extent, because he got us out of a sticky spot to some degree. But it was place kicking that did it.

Thirdly, the Dublin game; what was he doing so well in this game? The one ball he won, his marker was out in front but misjudged the flight of the ball. So I don't agree that he was playing well, let alone very well. Truth be told he wasn't really in it either way and his manager was clearly unhappy with his movement, as could be heard from the sideline. But again, we have built up this rose-tinted idea of what happened where basically we would have won if he stayed on, simply because we want it to be true more than any real evidence.

What people never remember is Freeman played against Dublin the following spring in the league, and O'Carroll marked him out of it convincingly.

Now maybe it isn't the time to be making these points and I don't fault his effort at all, but we are guilty in mayo of not facing up to realities enough and making heroes out of guys who have done little, to our own detriment.

MayoAreMagic

yop wrote: »

Point on the sub, he had a super semi, was MOM, yet in the final it was strange, am sure it didn't help him. You will find many examples of players who lost confidence and didn't regain it or couldn't play under a manager. Its not a myth or an excuse. It happens.

How much of the motm was down to his place-kicking though? Again fair play to him on that, but we have a better place kicker.
As for players losing confidence under a manager, fair enough. He had 3 managers though and 4 year. In fact looking back, horan seemed to be the guy who gave him the most games...

As for the scoring stats, again, discount the frees. We have guys saying Doherty should be dropped when he has rattled off big scores in the league too - and from play. You cant have it every way.

Re. AOS, Im no blind supporter of him either. Id consider dropping him actually. We are very predictable with him, he hasn't developed his own game in a long time and the officiating of the game is moving away from very big players as they are fouled freely, without punishment and cant track their men.

yop

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

How much of the motm was down to his place-kicking though? Again fair play to him on that, but we have a better place kicker.
As for players losing confidence under a manager, fair enough. He had 3 managers though and 4 year. In fact looking back, horan seemed to be the guy who gave him the most games...

As for the scoring stats, again, discount the frees. We have guys saying Doherty should be dropped when he has rattled off big scores in the league too - and from play. You cant have it every way.

Re. AOS, Im no blind supporter of him either. Id consider dropping him actually. We are very predictable with him, he hasn't developed his own game in a long time and the officiating of the game is moving away from very big players as they are fouled freely, without punishment and cant track their men.

Yip Horan played him most. He got little to nothing in the last 2 years.

Scoring, he produced against the big teams, when he actually played.
Free, he came in under 50% on the frees. COC was the main free taker. McLoughs the other.
Freeman outscored Doherty on a scores to games ratio.

So you can have it every way you want really. He has produced against the big teams, his scoring to games ratio is as high as any forward we have or had on the panel in the last 5 years, he probably is a confidence player as are most forwards.