Mayo GAA Discussion Part 2

Donal55

Lots of buses parked around Mountjoy Sq this evening.
Credit to the fans who travelled but they deserved a better performance from the team. Match was over as a contest at half time.

PARlance

km79 wrote: »

Agree with all of what parlance said above very good analysis sir !

I know I mentioned it earlier but I've been thinking about it all the way down and also discicces it after the drawn game Clarkes kick outs are going to be a potential problem if we are in the mix next autumn
He looked very very harried tonight
They were going backwards sideways hanging in the air bit ALWAYS putting the receiver under pressure
A problem

A massive problem. He's a fantastic shot stopper and superb under the high ball bit you just can't ingnore those kickouts. Many Mayo supporters like to ignore it and prefer instead to keep harking back to Hennelly being selected for the replay... a bad call but with good logic... Clarke nearly lost us the first game when he had an almighty wobble towards the end.

All this best keeper in the Country stuff is crap. If you haven't an excellent kick out, you're not in the running for that title. I hope it's something that can be addressed because he has everything else.

Stoner

PARlance wrote:

Fair play to ye tonight. (Jesus, O'Gara has the finesse of an elephant.)

He softens things up alright.

PARlance

Stoner wrote: »

He softens things up alright.

That shot on goal in the first half.... 10 yards out and he managed to kick it 50 yards wide and 10 yards behind him.... he has Mayo blood?

Well done. Some team. Some panel. I've been saying it for a while but I can't see any relent in your League record. When you've 30 odd players pushing for Championship spots then there'll never be any slacking in the League. Even though our squad has improved, I don’t think any County can meet that intensity in the League.

We'll get ye in the Championship though

PressRun

PARlance wrote: »

A massive problem. He's a fantastic shot stopper and superb under the high ball bit you just can't ingnore those kickouts. Many Mayo supporters like to ignore it and prefer instead to keep harking back to Hennelly being selected for the replay... a bad call but with good logic... Clarke nearly lost us the first game when he had an almighty wobble towards the end.

All this best keeper in the Country stuff is crap. If you haven't an excellent kick out, you're not in the running for that title. I hope it's something that can be addressed because he has everything else.

He's an excellent shot stopper and a great big tall man to have under the high ball, but his kickouts need major work and I don't know if that will be remedied in time for the championship. People keep saying that his shot stopping abilities some how proves that Rochford should never have dropped him, but his kickouts tonight prove the logic in what Rochford was thinking.

The Talking Bread

Ah, well. It won't be the hope that kills this year, alas.

Just listening to this Documentary on the radio:

I recommend it to get over the match hangover..................http://www.rte.ie/radio1/doconone/2009/0626/646142-hurt/

Dyr

PARlance wrote: »

That shot on goal in the first half.... 10 yards out and he managed to kick it 50 yards wide and 10 yards behind him.... he has Mayo blood?

Well done. Some team. Some panel. I've been saying it for a while but I can't see any relent in your League record. When you've 30 odd players pushing for Championship spots then there'll never be any slacking in the League. Even though our squad has improved, I don’t think any County can meet that intensity in the League.

We'll get ye in the Championship though

Wat was your full back at for the first ball into O'Gara, standing miles off him ..you'd swear he was afraid of him

You'd want to tell some of your lads to stay out of the fridge from here on, Keegan and a few others look like they've wintered well :eek:

PARlance

Bambi wrote: »

Wat was your full back at for the first ball into O'Gara, standing miles off him ..you'd swear he was afraid of him

You'd want to tell some of your lads to stay out of the fridge from here on, Keegan and a few others look like they've wintered well :eek:

Keegan's arse is being discussed on 2 threads now There'll be plenty of room in his back pocket for Connolly when the Championship comes around.

Stoner

PARlance wrote:

Keegan's arse is being discussed on 2 threads now.

A thread per cheek?

Dyr

PARlance wrote: »

Keegan's arse is being discussed on 2 threads now There'll be plenty of room in his back pocket for Connolly when the Championship comes around.

Sure Lee has tons of space in his arse pocket..theres no celtic crosses in there.

And while Lee is on the excercise bike yiz may stick that young lad wearing 10 on the weights..he looks fierce light.

km79

Bambi wrote: »

Sure Lee has tons of space in his arse pocket..theres no celtic crosses in there.

And while Lee is on the excercise bike yiz may stick that young lad wearing 10 on the weights..he looks fierce light.

Lovely footballer but as you said he is too light/small for the rough and tumble of real championship football

Panrich

The night was summed up for me when old man Cluxton outpaced Diarmuid O Connor in a foot race for a loose ball. That in a nutshell showed the difference between the two teams tonight.

PARlance

Bambi wrote: »

Sure Lee has tons of space in his arse pocket..theres no celtic crosses in there.

And while Lee is on the excercise bike yiz may stick that young lad wearing 10 on the weights..he looks fierce light.

There's an All Ireland in there Bambi... you're not one of these Dubs who's club is Liverpool are you? Lee had a better day in CP last month.

LeoB

PARlance wrote: »

Coen & Boland have begun that process. Loftus to a lesser extent. Diarmuid there too obviously. That's 3 who have already shown enough to say they've come through.

Outside of that, Loftus is showing good signs. The likes of Ruane will need a few more years. I'd be happy with those 5 and wouldn't expect more than that.

Fair play to ye tonight.
(Jesus, O'Gara has the finesse of an elephant.)

As for ourselves:

Clarke's kickouts show no sign of improving. This is an absolutely critical aspect of the modern game. I had hoped that this would be addressed this year. He should be spending 80% of his time getting this right.

I was eager to see who swept tonight for us. McLoughlin wasn't the man last year and he's needed as a playmaker. Not playing one at all against ye is just suicidal. Clarke shouldn't have to be saving the day for us in terms of shot stopping if this was in place. Wide open.

Despite being to a Club Final, Keegan needs another month to get up to speed. Proven by the fact that he was put in the FB line.

There's a real worry about DO'C. He hasn't been himself for some time now. Still very good but not his best. My only guess is that he's either been run ragged or mentally tired.

Despite what the Galway men / Conspiracy Theorists / Begrudgers say, Aidan & Seamus are much needed. Aidan needs to be made a Full Forward of if it takes 6 months.

Transition into attack, which killed us last year, is still dire. This is why I would shake it up with testing (a fit) Keegan in the HF line.

Pressure on opposition goal kicks is way too slack. You just can't give Dublin free ball all day long from kick outs.

The 2 former points were highlighted in the 39th minute. We managed a laboured point from Coen but Dublin has tagged one back within 20 seconds of the ball going over the bar. That included a mark. I timed it
Same again a few minutes later after Regans free. McMahon popping up at the other end for an easy score.

Some positives:
Coen and Durcan are fine players who will keep improving.
Keegan will be a different player come championship.
Higgins looks like he's settling in ok at FB. A sweeper to help would be nice.
Boland didn't do much but he rarely does anything wrong, an excellent foot passer which could be utilised to some good effect with AO'S in the FF line.

The main negative:
I was expecting Rochford to have some plan for tonight. There was none. It was more or less the same team and tactics as the previous 3 games.

Great post. A few points from the top.

I think these young lads should be starting all the games. If a lad has promise as a minor games need to be organised for them to play in as 19 year olds.If they are good enough they are old enough. This is an area where Dublin and Kerry have excelled. That Boland is class, great vision and will only get better with games as will Coen and Loftus.

O'Gara breaks our hearts. You just dont know what he will do. I think his brother will come very close to feature come championship time.

Clarkes kickouts. I dont know how he can be accurate kicking off the cone he uses. The tee used by some keepers are I feel for lads with weak kickouts or lads going for distance. The way kickouts are now accuracy is vital and you cant get them off these tees or his case cones.

McLoughlin is the man who can link defence and attack and in future Boland. Both are good at getting space and both can kick pass accurately.

I understand your point about pressuring kickouts but Dublin with Fenton now have an option they didnt have previously. With Flynn now well rested and MDMA Dublin have serious ball winning options now, O'Conaighle is getting more game time and is also a big option in that area. So I think you will see Dublin surprise teams this year with a very varied kickout.

I think Mayo dont play to their strengths enough. Their strength is running and attacking but (as we seen with Dublin in last 2 games) it takes away from their natural game. Only when Dublin attacked Tyrone and Donegal did they look more natural. Mayo are better than either of these sides but Dublin I think showed in last 15 minutes of each game when they played to their own strengths they could match these teams. Mayo I think are similar.

The negative I saw was the physical side of Mayo tonight. Im not saying Mayo were dirty but on a good few occasions they were trying to nail lads and not going for the ball. Dublin are mentally too strong now to get intimidated by this and it takes the focus away from players. C O'C tackle on McMahon was straight red. If this happened against Tyrone or Donegal you would be choked out of the game. . You know the saying give a dog a bad name......

The other change I would make is I would not be playing Andy Moran or Vaughan from the start. Both have been through the mill and have serious miles on the clock. There is not a great future in continueing with them. Get the young lads in and if needed they would be great to spring off the bench. Lads like Evan Reagan, Boland, Coen is where the future for Mayo lies.

It aint all gloom and doom despite that result tonight.. I think come July and August Mayo will have a big say in the championship

DDC1990

The goal chance before the Dublin goal came from a crazy miscommunication between Durcan and Boyle.

Mayo started off Man to Man initially, but having been cut open they switched after 8 minutes to having Boyle sweep back.

Dublin had the ball at midfield, and Boyle was just settling into the role. He turned his back to play and was talking to Durcan. It was as if they were going to swap roles, because Durcan ran out towards him, and Dublin just popped the ball over both of their heads to the free man.

Luckily Clarke was on hand, but the kickout was a poor hanging effort which favoured the Dublin players who had pushed up and thwn they had 3 options available to score the goal really.

It was poor stuff from start to finish from Mayo. It was funny listening to Dublin complain a few weeks ago about Tyrone's tactics, but on several occasions in the First half last night they had 15 players behind the ball. They also attacked laterally over and back ad nausium, handpass after handpass, something they moaned about as well.

However the second half was different. They pushed right up, to the point where they had 11 men inside the Mayo 45 at a number of stages, and laid siege. They won the midfield battle with ease and swept up every break. They pushed up on the Mayo short kickouts and even successful kickouts found walls of Dublin defenders meeting them before halfway.

Their attacking angles were brilliant and the kicked somw great scores in the second half.

I didn't think the score was flattering considering the goal chances missed.

The forwards were very poor.
Andy and Cillian were way off. Boland couldn't get himself involved in the play. Kevin got on a lot of ball and looked most dangerous, but ran the ball into trouble too often. Diarmuid did a lot of running but disappeared for periods in the second half. I saw a bit of a spark in Evan Regan. I've always regarded him as a little bit afraid of the tougher opponents (this coming from someone who doesn't see him play often at all). However last night he kept showing for it, won posession out in front and ran bravely at Dublin. Poor finishing though.

Clarke was obviously fantastic bar the kickout. Backs struggled but woth the amount of Dublin posession it's not surprising. Higgins impressed me, but the rest of the lads were under severe pressure. One moment from Colm Boyle really showed his character. In the second half with the game well over, a ball was near the aideline and Colm seemed to be on his own against e Dublin players, but he battled on his hands and knees to stop a player in blue getting the ball before a hop ball was given. A positive moment in amongst the mess.

Anyway petrified of Dublin's impending trip to Tralee. Target practice comes to mind. Hoping we get a few of the old lads back in the team and make **** of the game tbh and keep the score down.

Audioslaven

PressRun wrote: »

He's an excellent shot stopper and a great big tall man to have under the high ball, but his kickouts need major work and I don't know if that will be remedied in time for the championship. People keep saying that his shot stopping abilities some how proves that Rochford should never have dropped him, but his kickouts tonight prove the logic in what Rochford was thinking.

Rochford's decision was wrong for the replay. The kick outs last year were not really a problem with Clarke. He had a few bad ones at around the 65 -70 minutes at the drawn game but the showing by the players at that point was missing as well.

I think you are using last nights display to justify a decision that Rochford did last year which makes no sense. Clarke irrespective of any issues with his kicks out from last night's game is the best keeper for Mayo

km79

Audioslaven wrote: »

Rochford's decision was wrong for the replay. The kick outs last year were not really a problem with Clarke. He had a few bad ones at around the 65 -70 minutes at the drawn game but the showing by the players at that point was missing as well.

I think you are using last nights display to justify a decision that Rochford did last year which makes no sense. Clarke irrespective of any issues with his kicks out from last night's game is the best keeper for Mayo

He is
BUT
The dubs target his kickouts and will do so again if we meet later in the summer .
We need a plan B for the kickouts as a whole but I suppose we were missing the option of going long to the o Shea's as NOBODY was capable of winning their own ball

But sure some would have the o Shea's on the bench too cos we have so many better options apparently

Again illsay look back at both matches last year and see just how much ball Aidan won and scored he laid on
Seamie poor first game nearly our MOTM second game

Oldtree

Clarke was fantastic but needs to take his time a bit more on the kickouts.
Another positive was the low Dublin score in the first half.
The basics seemed to have been overlooked.
The back and half backs didn't do a whole lot to loose their markers on kickouts. A keeper needs them to work hard for kickouts.
The marking was far to loose with dubs being allowed 10 or more meters at times when we were being attacked, esp up the opposite wing, and up to 3 of them free at a time in this situation.
Posession There seemed to be panic with the final pass in plays simply giving the ball away wasting the attack.
I can only hope that there was some rational behind this like a trial by fire.
I don't understand how it came apart so quickly.

Stoner

km79 wrote:

as NOBODY was capable of winning their own ball

You'd imagine with decent options at halfback that Mayo will have to get more from Lee Keegan. There should be more benifit to the team from having a current FOTY.
We know he can score, but helping out in midfield like some other noted talents do is something I think there is a win in for Mayo. He could provide better options for kickouts, it might be unpopular here but I think there is an over emphasis on keeping his man scoreless

Fowler87

He plays on the edge that's why Lee is normally designated marker against opposition best. No doubt it nullify his attacking threat no more than McLoughlin when he's used as sweeper. Big decisions to be made regardless. Keegan in half forward role would be interesting

Paulzx

Stoner wrote: »

You'd imagine with decent options at halfback that Mayo will have to get more from Lee Keegan. There should be more benifit to the team from having a current FOTY.
We know he can score, but helping out in midfield like some other noted talents do is something I think there is a win in for Mayo. He could provide better options for kickouts, it might be unpopular here but I think there is an over emphasis on keeping his man scoreless

Agreed. An absolutely fantastic player that is spending his whole time concentrating on someone elses game. He's an absolute thoroughbred of a player. A good man marking job can be done by a lesser player who is fit, can concentrate and has an ability to stick to the task. Keegan is so much more than this.

I'd love to see him tear the shackles off this year and play his own game. That's up to the management though

seligehgit

I think my sentiments have been pretty much summed up but boy that was some tanking we were on the receiving end of.Thoroughly disappointing display in a freezing Croke Park to compound the misery.Although we squandered any goal chances we had and hit some awful wides the score flatttered us.Men against boys.

Dublin minus up to seven All Ireland starters were frighteningly good.They are on a different level.Their fitness and intensity levels are phenomenal and in Brian Fenton they possess the finest footballer in the country on current form.Dublin have a real cutting edge in front of the posts although they at times overelaborated trying to walk the ball into the net.The quality of the footpassing and movement was in stark contrast to the paucity of same in our case.The quality of players they were missing should concern us in the context of our matchday performance..Connolly,Cooper,McCaffrey,McCarthy and O Sullivan.They shan't walk back on to the team.O Gara the least aesthetic footballer I possibly have ever laid my eyes upon relishes a joust with the Green and Red.Although his goal attempt in the first half gave me my solitary moment of mirth in Croker last night.I asked my mate did he hit the post?

TBH I can see no possibilty of Kerry beating them and putting an end to their unbeaten and likely record run.In fact I can only see another successful defence of their All Ireland title.Tyrone look the best equipped team to beat them,the Red Hand boys get under their skin and can frustrate them with a successful blanket defence and break quickly.Their template seems to work best.

We have real issues in the number one position,David Clarke is our best goalkeeeper,an excellent shotstopper and commanding in the air and large square.However I closed my eyes everytime he kicked the ball out last night awaiting another disaster.Cluxton hardly put a foot wrong last night.Robert Hennelly under the high ball frequently has cost us and in the replay last year cost us dearly on his kickouts.I believe it was the wrong decision to drop Clarke last year but I can see the rationale behind it.If perchance we meet Dublin later in the championship Clarke's kickouts will be targeted mercilessly.

We are struggling in the full back line,O Gara was a real handful for Keith Higgins and Paddy Durcan is wasted in the corner.

It was truly amazing how much the players stood off their opposite numbers,the players appeared very leggy..heavy week's training?I've mixed feelings re the argument about our inability to compete with Dublin in terms of panel depth.It's largely factually correct but it can't account such an anaemic performance and the psychological benefits to the team of a win or at the very least a competitive performance.

We were destroyed at midfield,Seamus O Shea was sorely missed.Last night we won virtually no breaking ball and oftentimes were starved of possession.Our final ball inside was very poor and we tended to overelaborate,Fergal Boland is very comfortable on the ball but like many others struggled against such a good defence.Diarmuid O Connor definitely looks out of sorts,burnout?Andy Moran showed well for ball but said possession was largely received in the corners.Evan Regan is learning the reality of playing inter county football.

Cillian O Connor reliabilty as a freetaker in the last couple of years if my memory is still serving me well is'nt what it was.His reputation as a bete noir for Dublin fans and zero popularity with the Hill will not have been enhanced by what appeared to a red card offence.There was an overzealousness by some of our players that was borderline over the edge,totally unnecessary.

Agree that the utilisation of Lee Keegan as a manmarker/spoiler is to the detriment of the team.Perhaps it is time to take a chance and entrust other players to mark the Diarmuid Connollys of this world.Ger Cafferkey I hear yet again should be back very soon,his absence in the full back line is immense.

The reality in large part we'll be relying on the same lads to go back to the well this summer,in spite of all the criticism Aidan O Shea receives he is sorely missed.

padd b1975

I hate that raindance Clarke does to get onto his kicking foot, the delay just telegraphs his intentions to the opposition.

Am I being too critical, or is it reasonable to expect an inter county player to be able to trickle the ball twenty yards off either foot??

TCDStudent1

padd b1975 wrote: »

I hate that raindance Clarke does to get onto his kicking foot, the delay just telegraphs his intentions to the opposition.

Am I being too critical, or is it reasonable to expect an inter county player to be able to trickle the ball twenty yards off either foot??

Can't think of any goalkeeper who takes kick outs with both feet?

PressRun

seligehgit wrote: »

Diarmuid O Connor definitely looks out of sorts,burnout?

He hasn't looked right since that injury last year. He has been playing a crazy amount of football for the last year solid and desperately needs to be rested, imo.

seligehgit wrote: »

Cillian O Connor reliabilty as a freetaker in the last couple of years if my memory is still serving me well is'nt what it was.His reputation as a bete noir for Dublin fans and zero popularity with the Hill will not have been enhanced by what appeared to a red card offence.

Couldn't care less what the Hill think about anything, tbh.

But I heard a worrying rumour about two months ago about where Cillian is at mentally. I brushed it off at the time as just talk, but I'm wondering whether or not there might be a curnal of truth in it. He did well against Roscommon, but I don't know how much he has actually been enjoying football recently. In any case, he needs to play closer to goal, imo.

seligehgit wrote: »

Ger Cafferkey I hear yet again should be back very soon,his absence in the full back line is immense.

We need him back as a solid number three. Having no consistency in the fullback line and nobody to hold the fort there is not workable long term.

Paulzx

seligehgit wrote: »

The reality in large part we'll be relying on the same lads to go back to the well this summer,in spite of all the criticism Aidan O Shea receives he is sorely missed.

Is there an arguement to be made to play him in midfield purely to try and win kickouts?

If both Mayo keepers are incapable of pinpoint accuracy (I'm only repeating what people are saying about them) would it not be better to hit it long and allow Mayos big lads to compete for it and avoid the opposition winning clean ball.

At least if possession is lost it is well out the pitch. If kicks are inaccurate, short kick outs present instant scoring opportunities to the opposition when they win possession.

At least hitting it long means the opposition have to work for a score after winning the ball.

Audioslaven

km79 wrote: »

He is
BUT
The dubs target his kickouts and will do so again if we meet later in the summer .
We need a plan B for the kickouts as a whole but I suppose we were missing the option of going long to the o Shea's as NOBODY was capable of winning their own ball

But sure some would have the o Shea's on the bench too cos we have so many better options apparently

Again illsay look back at both matches last year and see just how much ball Aidan won and scored he laid on
Seamie poor first game nearly our MOTM second game

I am not so sure you can apply a BUT as this is not particularly attributed to Clarke but more so a team issue. If a plan A/B/C is developed, the players need to make the runs for Clarke to deliver the ball. Cluxton has his mini meltdowns as well and he is looked on as one of best keepers but if the players don't make the runs for him and are closely marked, he really looks out of sync and the hands start waving.

seligehgit

Clarke's raindance as was so aptly described is infuriating,it does indeed telegraph said kickouts..worse still it can delay further his oft slow restarts.His kickouts tend to have a hanging trajectory offering the opposition ample to set themselves up positionally.

I was more referencing an episode of unnecessary foul play by Cillian O Connor,I put watching back this horror show of a contest in cold storage.He would'nt be human if the hostility of some Dublin fans towards him did'nt cut but he is hardly helping himself.He can be petulant and like to be in the referee's ear yet I believe some dislike him for his admirable cold minded professionalism.He's not on the pitch to make friends.

I'd be greatly saddened if Cillian was'nt enjoying his football.I would not blame him though,he's on the road a long time for such a young man without the reward he seeks.The mental toll on all the Mayo players must be significant,you got to feel for them.

seligehgit

Paulzx wrote: »

Is there an arguement to be made to play him in midfield purely to try and win kickouts?

If both Mayo keepers are incapable of pinpoint accuracy (I'm only repeating what people are saying about them) would it not be better to hit it long and allow Mayos big lads to compete for it and avoid the opposition winning clean ball.

At least if possession is lost it is well out the pitch. If kicks are inaccurate, short kick outs present instant scoring opportunities to the opposition when they win possession.

At least hitting it long means the opposition have to work for a score after winning the ball.

There could be an argument made,the short kickouts are becoming ridiculously high risk against Dublin in particular.Their basketball like high court press is putting huge pressure on the Clarke kickout.TBF to David Clarke as has been mentioned players have got to make runs or he can be made to look foolish.

ATM Dublin have by a country mile the best midfield in the country with McAuley and Fenton,mobility wise,fielding skills and footpassing wise so perhaps swamping the middle with Parsons and the two O Sheas is worth exploring.

Yet the argument goes that Aidan is asked to be a jack of all trades and is suffering as a result.Einstein himself could'nt come up with the fit that best equips us to beat the Dubs,I don't envy Stephen Rochford.:)It comes down to for me Dublin have simply the best footballers in the country atm.

PressRun

seligehgit wrote: »

Clarke's raindance as was so aptly described is infuriating,it does indeed telegraph said kickouts..worse still it can delay further his oft slow restarts.His kickouts tend to have a hanging trajectory offering the opposition ample to set themselves up positionally.

I was more referencing an episode of unnecessary foul play by Cillian O Connor,I put watching back this horror show of a contest in cold storage.He would'nt be human if the hostility of some Dublin fans towards him did'nt cut but he is hardly helping himself.He can be petulant and like to be in the referee's ear yet I believe some dislike him for his admirable cold minded professionalism.He's not on the pitch to make friends.

I'd be greatly saddened if Cillian was'nt enjoying his football.I would not blame him though,he's on the road a long time for such a young man without the reward he seeks.The mental toll on all the Mayo players must be significant,you got to feel for them.

Well, this is just it, he's not on the pitch to make friends, much less with anyone standing in the hill. The Dublin fans can whinge all they want, but the fact remains that there aren't any angels playing for Dublin either. That's football. Nobody gets to the highest level by being nice.

He is at a stage in his life were I'd imagine a lot of young players wonder whether it's worth missing out on the things people their own age are doing just to play football. The game has gotten very serious in recent years and I don't know how much joy there is in Mayo football in particular since Horan left, and events over the winter have not helped. I wouldn't blame him at all if he felt like there are better, less stressful ways to enjoy his 20s.

Fowler87

Interesting point made by Press and have tend to agree. Sometimes you'd wonder if stepping away for year or 2 and just play club football or whatever (aka Sean Armstrong,Meehan etc.) may be of benefit to likes of COC and AOS in particular. Just to clear their heads if anything else. Still young to return and make an impact down the line. Did McD no harm at all.

Obviously this would hamper our chances hugely but at the end of the day these lads are amateurs

TCDStudent1

Fowler87 wrote: »

Interesting point made by Press and have tend to agree. Sometimes you'd wonder if stepping away for year or 2 and just play club football or whatever (aka Sean Armstrong,Meehan etc.) may be of benefit to likes of COC and AOS in particular. Just to clear their heads if anything else. Still young to return and make an impact down the line. Did McD no harm at all.

Obviously this would hamper our chances hugely but at the end of the day these lads are amateurs

The problem is that if you step away from it, it can be incredibly difficult to get back.

NabyLadistheman

By dropping Clarke for the replay it was an admittance by management that we are struggling with restarts. Anybody who was at the Tyrone game & also the first Dublin game will be perfectly aware how Clarke's kick-outs go. Not very far & high and loopy. Dublin being the well-drilled outfit they are have cottoned on to this and there high court press has us in a world of difficulty. When we apply the same tactic against Dublin Cluxton simply pings it far & wide to a runner on the touchline, we do not have this option. It's up to management now to address this & help Clarke out. We do not have a replacement option so he needs to improve. It's the only option. At least we do not have to worry about Dublin again for a long time!

I still cannot get my head around how flat the performance was. Looks like the players were not sure what was happening & a lack of guidance form management. Time & time again we have seen that Boyle cannot play sweeper. Yet there he was deployed. We turn McLoughlin into a sweeper last year where he excelled as the season progressed & now he's back to orthodox half-forward. Is it a case of management not wanting to show they're hand? If so very poor decision on their behalf, long-term effects of a beating like this are not good.

Lads, speculating on how a players head is not very good. A poster spoke of a rumour he heard months ago, this has no substance & I don't think we should be speculating on it. There was no talk of him not enjoying his football after victories in Kerry & a great performance against Roscommon

MayoAreMagic

In fairness to rochford, he took a huge amount of flak for dropping Clarke, but it was clear at the weekend that Dublin have done work on targeting his kickouts. What I don't get is why don't we do what Dublin do and just keep going shorter with them when people are pushing up?

MayoAreMagic

Bambi wrote: »

Wat was your full back at for the first ball into O'Gara, standing miles off him ..you'd swear he was afraid of him

You'd want to tell some of your lads to stay out of the fridge from here on, Keegan and a few others look like they've wintered well :eek:

The plan was leave him free in front of goal and hope they pass to him

NabyLadistheman

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

In fairness to rochford, he took a huge amount of flak for dropping Clarke, but it was clear at the weekend that Dublin have done work on targeting his kickouts. What I don't get is why don't we do what Dublin do and just keep going shorter with them when people are pushing up?

Because Cluxton is absolutely rapid. I could not believe how quick he was getting to on the tee & distributing it

Blackjack

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

In fairness to rochford, he took a huge amount of flak for dropping Clarke, but it was clear at the weekend that Dublin have done work on targeting his kickouts. What I don't get is why don't we do what Dublin do and just keep going shorter with them when people are pushing up?

This. The last 10 minutes of the drawn game showed why Clarke was dropped, his kickouts were wayward and Dublin picked up 3 or 4 points directly from them. It really was something Rochford had to try to address and unfortunately for Hennelly, he didn't have a great day either - 1 kickout lead to Keegan being sent to the bench and the Penalty incident both gamechangers we didn't need.

Clarke is a far better shot stopper and better at all aspects of the game bar the kickouts, where Hennelly is much better and far better at the long range shots.

TCDStudent1

Suarezistheman wrote: »

Because Cluxton is absolutely rapid. I could not believe how quick he was getting to on the tee & distributing it

That's the thing. Cluxton's kickouts are brilliant. I was also shocked at how quick he was kicking them out on Saturday. When he went long, they were very pinpoint kicks. One kickout in the second half was placed towards cusack stand and right into hands of Flynn, I think. People often point out that dublin gave players making great runs for kick outs and why don't our team do that. The problem is other teams just don't have cluxton who has taken goalkeeping to a completely new level in GAA.

EICVD

If only you guys could have a Clarke/ Hennelly hybrid clone, even then he'd probably have Clarkes kick outs & Hennellys shot stopping attributes 😉

blinding

EICVD wrote: »

If only you guys could have a Clarke/ Hennelly hybrid clone, even then he'd probably have Clarkes kick outs & Hennellys shot stopping attributes 😉

Mayo should be allowed Clark in goal and Kennelly for the kickouts.........

We deserve some sort of dispensation for ....keeping on keeping on;)

naughto

If we had sos in midfield and not gibbons it would have helped Clark with kicking to the centre.
The short kick outs it seems to put or backs under a lot of pressure yet when Dublin do it they have no trouble do we need to pull more players back when where going short to make sure we have an overlap of players to kick to.

charlie14

naughto wrote: »

If we had sos in midfield and not gibbons it would have helped Clark with kicking to the centre.
The short kick outs it seems to put or backs under a lot of pressure yet when Dublin do it they have no trouble do we need to pull more players back when where going short to make sure we have an overlap of players to kick to.

Nowadays lumping high ball into midfield against the top teams is a "Hail Mary" strategy.
Dublin have probably the best fielder of high ball in the country at the moment in Fenton, plus Macauley if it breaks, and they vary their kick-outs.
Nowadays to succeed at the top level requires goalkeepers to be able to hit their man accurately with the ball anywhere within their own half.

naughto

charlie14 wrote: »

Nowadays lumping high ball into midfield against the top teams is a "Hail Mary" strategy.
Dublin have probably the best fielder of high ball in the country at the moment in Fenton, plus Macauley if it breaks, and they vary their kick-outs.
Nowadays to succeed at the top level requires goalkeepers to be able to hit their man accurately with the ball anywhere within their own half.

I didn't say any thing about a hail Mary to midfield with sos it gives an option to go long when the short kick outs are not working.
Like sat night we had no midfield so we had to play short.
Where we lost the game was going man to man against Dublin why didn't we do what Donegal/Tyrone and flood or back line with players and have the likes of Leroy/Higgins bombing forward running at the dubs back line.

MayoAreMagic

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

That's the thing. Cluxton's kickouts are brilliant. I was also shocked at how quick he was kicking them out on Saturday. When he went long, they were very pinpoint kicks. One kickout in the second half was placed towards cusack stand and right into hands of Flynn, I think. People often point out that dublin gave players making great runs for kick outs and why don't our team do that. The problem is other teams just don't have cluxton who has taken goalkeeping to a completely new level in GAA.

He does be retrieving the next ball once he is sure it isn't dropping short or hitting the post. Clarke could be doing this too in fairness.

However, I don't think this is really fair in general. Like if a team manages to create a scoring chance, and some guy is caught napping by his man, who goes up and gets into a scoring opportunity, is it right for him to be then punished for being out of position by a quick kickout to his man who was too lazy to track him? Id be of the thinking that the attacking team should be given some amount of chance to get organised again, maybe 10 seconds or something like that.

seligehgit

It's a tad mindboggling why we aren't following the Tyrone template of flooding players back,Dublin seem to struggle most with that setup.At the very least the relatively successful use of Kevin Mc as a sweeper,same seems to have gone in cold storage.Going man to man with the Dubs is suicidal.

homewardbound11

No one talked of the risk of Henley under high ball . 2012 and 2016 were enough for me.

The reason we were cleaned st mid field was that out natural half back line were in the full back positions . Breaking balls were lost as was the transition into attack .

We didn't have the power to hold of players in the forward line and that caused players to be isolated . All of the above is easily rectified so I wouldn't panic just yet .
the

Stoner

seligehgit wrote:

It's a tad mindboggling why we aren't following the Tyrone template of flooding players back,Dublin seem to struggle most with that setup.At the very least the relatively successful use of Kevin Mc as a sweeper,same seems to have gone in cold storage.Going man to man with the Dubs is suicidal.

It's also interesting that Mayo are set up to handle the likes of Tyrone better than anyone else. I suppose to a degree you either have those types of players or you don't.

corny

seligehgit wrote: »

It's a tad mindboggling why we aren't following the Tyrone template of flooding players back,Dublin seem to struggle most with that setup.At the very least the relatively successful use of Kevin Mc as a sweeper,same seems to have gone in cold storage.Going man to man with the Dubs is suicidal.

Its not unusual to play one way in the spring and then produce shock and awe in the summer. Donegal used to do it all the time. They'd play fairly open games with Dublin in the league, if memory serves, only to park the proverbial bus in the summer.

Mayo certainly made it claustrophobic for Dublin in the final last year. Doubt they'll stray too much from that when it really matters in the summer.

charlie14

naughto wrote: »

I didn't say any thing about a hail Mary to midfield with sos it gives an option to go long when the short kick outs are not working.
Like sat night we had no midfield so we had to play short.
Where we lost the game was going man to man against Dublin why didn't we do what Donegal/Tyrone and flood or back line with players and have the likes of Leroy/Higgins bombing forward running at the dubs back line.

Apology if that is how my post read.
My point was that where a kick-out to midfield is to be effective, it cannot be hit in a "Hail Mary" fashion into the middle.
It, as do short kick-outs, has to be precisely targeted to give the target the maximum advantage of winning it.
Similar to what Cluxton bring to Dublin.
As in Dublin`s case you need a keeper who can deliver that, but you also need a strategy where the outfield players work in tandem with the keeper, which is as much to do with how good they are on kick-outs as Cluxton`s precision.
Interesting that you mention Donegal and Tyrone in regards to Dublin. I agree with you comepleely and posted here a few days ago that attempting to take on Dublin in a one-on-one shoot out is a hiding to nothing.
Just in regards to Donegal and kick-out.
Donegal`s keeper nowadays is no Durcan on kick-outs, but they appear to have overcome that with a strategy where the outfield players work to give him options by movement by some who know it isn`t going to come their way to mask where they know it is going.
Basically what I am saying, even if you have a keeper like Cluxton, it still requires a plan worked on in training involving all the team to maximise the benefits.
If you don`t have such a keeper then you need a strategy that all the team know, that involves more than lumping out ball in hope.
And while some here may not like it, against Dublin on kick-outs there didn`t seem to be any plan regarding your own kick outs or how to deal with Dublin`s.

Shurimgreat

I think Rochford needs to read the inter-county Manager's handbook again because it clearly states on page 1, paragraph 1, "Thou shalt not play Dublin 1 to 1"

Only some form of blanket defence works, especially early in the league. I hope he takes some lessons from this defeat.