Mayo GAA Discussion Part 2

seligehgit

robbiezero wrote: »

Aidan O'Shea was 1/25 last time I looked on Paddy Power. Hardly an outside shot. Will be amazed if he doesnt get one.

Probably phrased it wrong but there's a heck of a lot of competition in the inside line.. Brogan,Andrews,O Donoghue,McCurry and of course McManus.Heck who am I to argue with the bookies.

robbiezero

seligehgit wrote: »

Probably phrased it wrong but there's a heck of a lot of competition in the inside line.. Brogan,Andrews,O Donoghue,McCurry and of course McManus.Heck who am I to argue with the bookies.

I agree with you. Can't see O'Donoghue or McCurry getting it, but it wouldn't surprise me if one or two were moved out to the half line, where apart from Ciaran Kilkenny, no one has really stood out.

happyoutscan

blue4ever wrote: »

and.. as for the abuse this forum gives the Telegraph, FFS - they broke a story, there's no 'omerta' here. Some player(s) went to the Telegraph and spilled the beans after the 'covert meeting'- and now people are rounding on them.

Stop pointing the finger and anything that moves.

The leaks are coming from the current management I'd guess, in no way from the players.

As for the Telegraph, it's on a par with The Sun newspaper. Pure trash. The journalist involved has no credibility and I wouldn't be surprised to see some legal action taken.

Syferus

happyoutscan wrote: »

The leaks are coming from the current management I'd guess, in no way from the players.

As for the Telegraph, it's on a par with The Sun newspaper. Pure trash. The journalist involved has no credibility and I wouldn't be surprised to see some legal action taken.

Legal action being filed over a story about something that did happen and has been building in public for 12 months. Come off it. Mayo have a damn sight more to be worrying about.

Fr Tod Umptious

happyoutscan wrote: »

The leaks are coming from the current management I'd guess, in no way from the players.

As for the Telegraph, it's on a par with The Sun newspaper. Pure trash. The journalist involved has no credibility and I wouldn't be surprised to see some legal action taken.

Ok so player X who has been getting on fine with the management all season is asked to vote in a confidence ballot.
And I'd expect that there is a certain amount "infulence" being put on people to vote a certain way, otherwise why the the vote at all.

Player X votes confidence and then sees the same s$it storm develop over the last few days as we all have had.

What's wrong with him going to his local juralistic confident and saying that he voted confidence and knows of others that may have also.

What has been lacking over the past few days is a real body of evidence to suggest that the management were "unprofessional" in their approach, so I'd imagine there are a few players out there wonder what this is all about and why are we going through it.

I'd really hope the ring leaders open up with their grievances so we can find out what the problems are.

Padkir

HamsterFace wrote: »

To be fair, they are not necessarily speaking of the management and decision making on the day, rather the overall professionalism of the outfit and the fact that they felt it wasn't a step up from what they had previously.

Thats my understanding of it anyway.

Oh I understand that. Just adding a few reasons why it wouldn't be the end of the world to see them go.

happyoutscan

Syferus wrote: »

Legal action being filed over a story about something that did happen and has been building in public for 12 months. Come off it. Mayo have a damn sight more to be worrying about.

There could be a case for legal action where players are named but not the sources. Unlikely but quite possible.

As for the ring leaders here's a clue: They're brothers.

theoneeyedman

Gary Neville wrote: »

We've had this scenario in Cork, far too often in the last 15 years or so. We've now given the job of picking Senior IC Managers to 5 man committees consisting of Chairman, Sec & 3 Ex Players. Whilst it's not mandatory to elicit the opinions of current squad members, the ex-players are doing so, off-the-record. Significantly, the CB no longer pull the strings.

When the Cork CB dominated the selection process - they selected the wrong people, more often than not and players felt that their efforts were being hampered.

It seems that the Mayo CB will look to establish and address the concerns of the players and seek to retain the management on this basis. However, it's likely that battle lines are already formed with leaks to the media and comments by ex players inflaming the situation. The co-managers will be very annoyed at their treatment and as this develops, they'll only dig their heels in more. They'll probably reach a point that even if they want to walk away, they will feel that they can't - on principal. Try to imagine their annoyance at the detail in the Clerkin piece - they will feel that they are being portrayed as incompetents with no opportunity to defend.

The rights and wrongs of this and winning the media war are not really relevant.

Mayo are good enough to win an AI (with the vital slice of good luck) in the next 3 years - management has lost the dressing-room and also the opportunity of guiding this squad to winning Sam. The theatrics must stop and the co-managers must be persuaded, for the good of every party, to step aside.

Yes lads, Cork, a shining example of best practice in how to manage GAA teams over the last 15 years....

TCDStudent1

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Ok so player X who has been getting on fine with the management all season is asked to vote in a confidence ballot.
And I'd expect that there is a certain amount "infulence" being put on people to vote a certain way, otherwise why the the vote at all.

Player X votes confidence and then sees the same s$it storm develop over the last few days as we all have had.

What's wrong with him going to his local juralistic confident and saying that he voted confidence and knows of others that may have also.

What has been lacking over the past few days is a real body of evidence to suggest that the management were "unprofessional" in their approach, so I'd imagine there are a few players out there wonder what this is all about and why are we going through it.

I'd really hope the ring leaders open up with their grievances so we can find out what the problems are.

Wise words!

I don't really understand how or why so many posters on here are blindly supporting the players when they simply don't know why the players have no confidence in the management - it makes no sense!!

davegrohl48

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

Wise words!

I don't really understand how or why so many posters on here are blindly supporting the players when they simply don't know why the players have no confidence in the management - it makes no sense!!

Several posters have played with and against those players at club level and never a pip out of them at club level and never a pip out of them at county level. Several posters involved with those guys clubs. Now 27 of them are unhappy. Ringleaders of a coup wouldn't manage to organise such levels of support. They had plenty opportunities severals of them to be unhappy in the past at both club and county level. Clearly the numbers would indicate something must be up. Your overall point is valid, get the issues out in the open after tonights meeting. What is so bad that lead to a 27 vote against. Nobody knows the full situation until then. For the moment people making a logical assumption that as it was 27 of the 34 panel the numbers indicate widespread unhappiness.

yop

Syferus wrote: »

Legal action being filed over a story about something that did happen and has been building in public for 12 months. Come off it. Mayo have a damn sight more to be worrying about.

Ah hey, where have you been, not seen since Fermanagh beat ya and now your on here the minute Mayo GAA have some drama

jmayo

Peist2007 wrote: »

A small issue. Game on saturday and players had been training for months. Match is drawn so management give players a few extra days off from collective training. The recovery you mention above would have happened the next day regardless. Happens all the time. Training the week of a match like that late in the year is nothing, a bit of kicking and jogging, no more. Hard work had already been done and, i would imagine, the actual grievances with the management in place long before then.

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Ok so player X who has been getting on fine with the management all season is asked to vote in a confidence ballot.
And I'd expect that there is a certain amount "infulence" being put on people to vote a certain way, otherwise why the the vote at all.

Player X votes confidence and then sees the same s$it storm develop over the last few days as we all have had.

What's wrong with him going to his local juralistic confident and saying that he voted confidence and knows of others that may have also.

What has been lacking over the past few days is a real body of evidence to suggest that the management were "unprofessional" in their approach, so I'd imagine there are a few players out there wonder what this is all about and why are we going through it.

I'd really hope the ring leaders open up with their grievances so we can find out what the problems are.

As bad as it is with a split between management and players, a split within the playing squad can be harder to fix.
These guys have given everything for each other over the last few years.

Going to the press and saying I am not one of the 27 guys could be seen as stabbing the other 27 in the back.

BTW holding one meeting/session and a run around on friday between drawn game and replay would be seen as very unprofessional by a lot of people these days.

Somehow I don't think Gavin was so lassiez faire.
Does anyone know what Horan did last year between matches ?

theoneeyedman wrote: »

Yes lads, Cork, a shining example of best practice in how to manage GAA teams over the last 15 years....

Yeah for all their bad practice in hurling they won one minor, won two All Irelands, took another one to a replay, and in football they won two under 21s, one minor and the one football All Ireland they were in.

And don't get me started on the 6 camogie All Irelands, or the 9 Ladies Football titles.

If that is not the best of practice in managing teams in last 15 years, then I would gladly live with for the next 15 years.

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

Wise words!

I don't really understand how or why so many posters on here are blindly supporting the players when they simply don't know why the players have no confidence in the management - it makes no sense!!

Well a lot of the posters can see how the management tactically royally fooked up when push came to shove.

BTW we can also see how players under performed as well.

seligehgit

I don't believe posters are supporting the players blindly,we are not possession of the facts behind the vote of no confidence.I doubt though that the players would have undertaken this course of action likely knowing the crisis that would be a consequence of same action.

TCDStudent1

seligehgit wrote: »

I don't believe posters are supporting the players blindly,we are not possession of the facts behind the vote of no confidence.I doubt though that the players would have undertaken this course of action likely knowing the crisis that would be a consequence of same action.

Well that's exactly my point. Posters on here do not know the facts behind the vote of no confidence.

Obviously there are some motives behind it, but the question is - are they valid & reasonable ones? Nobody knows, so I find it hard to back the players or the management.

To me, its mental how people are completely with the players on this, without knowing more.

davegrohl48

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

Well that's exactly my point. Posters on here do not know the facts behind the vote of no confidence.

Obviously there are some motives behind it, but the question is - are they valid & reasonable ones? Nobody knows, so I find it hard to back the players or the management.

To me, its mental how people are completely with the players on this, without knowing more.

I think after a few posts we find we are all in generally in agreement. Get the facts on the table basically. Facts, not wishy washy stuff like "Lower standards of professionalism". If things were bad there will be stuff to point to and say this is the evidence that the management of the squad was poor.

Defiler Of The Coffin

A relative of mine was speaking to a clubmate of some of the senior players on the panel, and apparently the word 'circus' was used in relation to the training sessions. I don't know any more than anybody on this forum but my gut feeling is that the players would not have gone this route if they didn't have grave concerns over the level of training and preparation. I can't see them voting no-confidence over missed buses and the like.

Again, it is regrettable that all this has transpired but if there isn't complete buy-in from players at the level Mayo are at then the management have to go. There's no point shuddering on otherwise.

Shurimgreat

Not a great year for full forwards, so AOS might get one, based mainly on the earlier rounds of the championship. Keegan a definite. I think that would be about it. Dublin to probably get 6 or 7, Kerry 4 or 5. That leaves about 4 for the rest of the country. Giving 2 to Mayo would be generous and Tyrone might feel hard done by if they don't get 2. Possibly 1 each to Mayo and Tyrone.

TCDStudent1

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Not a great year for full forwards, so AOS might get one, based mainly on the earlier rounds of the championship. Keegan a definite. I think that would be about it. Dublin to probably get 6 or 7, Kerry 4 or 5. That leaves about 4 for the rest of the country. Giving 2 to Mayo would be generous and Tyrone might feel hard done by if they don't get 2. Possibly 1 each to Mayo and Tyrone.

Monaghan are guaranteed 1 in McManus.

TCDStudent1

Defiler Of The Coffin wrote: »

A relative of mine was speaking to a clubmate of some of the senior players on the panel, and apparently the word 'circus' was used in relation to the training sessions. I don't know any more than anybody on this forum but my gut feeling is that the players would not have gone this route if they didn't have grave concerns over the level of training and preparation. I can't see them voting no-confidence over missed buses and the like.

.

But wouldn't training be mostly organised by their coach, who posters are constantly praising on here! You see, very little of this adds up yet!

I guess the players will come out with more details in a while. Just don't understand why they didn't do so on the night they voted no confidence.

BENDYBINN

Suarezistheman wrote: »

What good is being 4 points up with 15 minutes to go if you have exerted every bit of energy you have to get in that position? We still lost the game by 8. And that is what matters here. At no stage was that a comfortable lead, it was only a miracle we had not conceded any goals before we did such was the pressure our full-back line was under. They were exposed from minute one and that is down to management, not to mention the substitutions

Seems you are making it up as you go along!
Ok the first day we were came from 7 down to almost win......
And that was because...........?

Gary Neville

It's pretty pointless to expect the players to set out the detailed reasons why they've lost confidence in management.

The players are not asking the management to make some adjustments in accordance with their preferences or views - they've gone much further than that - they've said that they do not have confidence that this management has the ability to take the team forward and they don't want to work with them any longer. They have effectively asked the management to step down.

These are totally dedicated people and were fully aware of the storm that this was going to create - you can be certain that this is not down to minor issues - it's a combination of a lot of things.

There was no easy way for the players to get their message accross and this is gone well beyond the point of no return.

IMO - the CB Executive is severely compromised due to the relationship between CM and 1 manager. A cobbled together solution with a mediator/facillitator won't produce a formula to win Sam.

Mayo players and supporters badly need an AI win - it would be great for the game - these lads have given massive enjoyment to Mayo people and GAA supporters in general and they deserve a management set-up that they have confidence in.

I see the CB taking a hard line and the 2 managers digging in their heels and if so that will yield a very sad end to the hopes anf ambitions of players and supporters alike.

seligehgit

Gary Neville wrote: »

It's pretty pointless to expect the players to set out the detailed reasons why they've lost confidence in management.

The players are not asking the management to make some adjustments in accordance with their preferences or views - they've gone much further than that - they've said that they do not have confidence that this management has the ability to take the team forward and they don't want to work with them any longer. They have effectively asked the management to step down.

These are totally dedicated people and were fully aware of the storm that this was going to create - you can be certain that this is not down to minor issues - it's a combination of a lot of things.

There was no easy way for the players to get their message accross and this is gone well beyond the point of no return.

IMO - the CB Executive is severely compromised due to the relationship between CM and 1 manager. A cobbled together solution with a mediator/facillitator won't produce a formula to win Sam.

Mayo players and supporters badly need an AI win - it would be great for the game - these lads have given massive enjoyment to Mayo people and GAA supporters in general and they deserve a management set-up that they have confidence in.

I see the CB taking a hard line and the 2 managers digging in their heels and if so that will yield a very sad end to the hopes anf ambitions of players and supporters alike.

Excellent post,I really do hope you're wrong re this possible outcome.

Peist2007

Gary Neville wrote: »

It's pretty pointless to expect the players to set out the detailed reasons why they've lost confidence in management.

The players are not asking the management to make some adjustments in accordance with their preferences or views - they've gone much further than that - they've said that they do not have confidence that this management has the ability to take the team forward and they don't want to work with them any longer. They have effectively asked the management to step down.

These are totally dedicated people and were fully aware of the storm that this was going to create - you can be certain that this is not down to minor issues - it's a combination of a lot of things.

There was no easy way for the players to get their message accross and this is gone well beyond the point of no return.

IMO - the CB Executive is severely compromised due to the relationship between CM and 1 manager. A cobbled together solution with a mediator/facillitator won't produce a formula to win Sam.

Mayo players and supporters badly need an AI win - it would be great for the game - these lads have given massive enjoyment to Mayo people and GAA supporters in general and they deserve a management set-up that they have confidence in.

I see the CB taking a hard line and the 2 managers digging in their heels and if so that will yield a very sad end to the hopes anf ambitions of players and supporters alike.

Yup Connelly's brother will fight tooth and nail to have this thing sorted out. But it's already too late. Management team stay on and i think we'll see a bunch of retirements all at once.

Loafing Oaf

Gary Neville wrote: »

I see the CB taking a hard line and the 2 managers digging in their heels and if so that will yield a very sad end to the hopes anf ambitions of players and supporters alike.

Whaddya mean? H&C digging in, most of current squad refusing to play, circus carrying on into the New Year, putting out second-string teams in FBD/League...great crack altogether.:P

cocoman

Peist2007 wrote: »

Yup Connelly's brother will fight tooth and nail to have this thing sorted out. But it's already too late. Management team stay on and i think we'll see a bunch of retirements all at once.

A bunch of retirements all at once or even a couple of guys "taking a break" would be absolute disaster for Mayo football.

PressRun

Thing is, if the management refuse to go and are backed by the county board, then it will go from the management's position being untenable to the position of the instigators of the no confidence vote becoming untenable. It would be hard for them to stay and continue playing for a management team that they unsuccessfully tried to oust.

Fr Tod Umptious

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

Wise words!

I don't really understand how or why so many posters on here are blindly supporting the players when they simply don't know why the players have no confidence in the management - it makes no sense!!

For some reason some seem to have it in for this management team since the get go, going back 12 months the McStay/McHale option seemed more favourable to some.

A lot were wary of the joint managers setup, ignoring the fact that the two had worked well together before and that many here lamented that Horan did not have someone on his shoulder to help him out with the big calls.

Then as another poster pointed out people seem to be making it up as they go along when finding ways to show that the management was inept during the Dublin games.

For me this team did as well as I expected this year, and I was going to give them until the end of next year to really judge them.

But if there are real problems under the hood that are holding back the team then yes its time to move on to someone else, but if its just a case of these guys missing Horan then they would have to cop on and fast.

There is a meeting tonight I believe involving player reps, hopefully we will learn something about the reasons behind this from it.

TCDStudent1

Gary Neville wrote: »

It's pretty pointless to expect the players to set out the detailed reasons why they've lost confidence in management.

ke.

How on earth could it be considered pointless? Surely the county board need to understand why this management was not considered up to scratch to ensure they appoint a management that won't make the same mistakes??? Otherwise Mayo could end up with a management that just make the same mistakes again!!

TCDStudent1

http://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2015/1001/731800-mayo-meeting/


20 - 25 players seems a fairly low turnout for a 34 man panel considering how important this meeting was

glack

But how many of those missing live and work in Dublin? They spend all season commuting up and down mid week for training. Don't think it's unreasonable for them to miss a meeting.

TCDStudent1

glack wrote: »

But how many of those missing live and work in Dublin? They spend all season commuting up and down mid week for training. Don't think it's unreasonable for them to miss a meeting.

Yeah, that's true.

irishgeo

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2015/1001/731800-mayo-meeting/


20 - 25 players seems a fairly low turnout for a 34 man panel considering how important this meeting was

A short meeting only 10mins for an important meeting.

Kalyke

Sounds like a stand off to me!

PressRun

Either they resigned immediately or said they weren't and the players walked out.

Kalyke

PressRun wrote: »

Either they resigned immediately or said they weren't and the players walked out.

The latter I fear..

cocoman

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2015/1001/731800-mayo-meeting/


20 - 25 players seems a fairly low turnout for a 34 man panel considering how important this meeting was

The seven management supporters probably didn't attend.

wirelessdude01

I'd imagine that the county board are backing the management, said as much. The players walked straight away.

Kalyke

The number of players present put at 30 according to Mayo News.
http://www.mayonews.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=22848%3Alarge-delegation-of-mayo-squad-attend-crisis-meeting&catid=14&Itemid=100008

Uncle Ben

Kalyke wrote: »

The number of players present put at 30 according to Mayo News.
http://www.mayonews.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=22848%3Alarge-delegation-of-mayo-squad-attend-crisis-meeting&catid=14&Itemid=100008

RTE really do have problems with counting people.

ColeTrain

It would be crazy for the County Board to back management.

Another question is, why would H&C want to stay on if they aren't wanted? Any sympathy they have will be gone if they decide to drag this out.

TCDStudent1

Kalyke wrote: »

The number of players present put at 30 according to Mayo News.
http://www.mayonews.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=22848%3Alarge-delegation-of-mayo-squad-attend-crisis-meeting&catid=14&Itemid=100008

Now, that's a figure I would have expected

PressRun

Good to see the players sticking together. The ones that weren't there have reasonable excuses, it seems (out of the country, Dublin-based). It's a positive show of strength that would indicate they're not going let a wedge be driven between them.

Uncle Ben

ColeTrain wrote: »

It would be crazy for the County Board to back management.

Another question is, why would H&C want to stay on if they aren't wanted? Any sympathy they have will be gone if they decide to drag this out.

Pride comes before the fall.

Fr Tod Umptious

ColeTrain wrote: »

It would be crazy for the County Board to back management.

Another question is, why would H&C want to stay on if they aren't wanted? Any sympathy they have will be gone if they decide to drag this out.

Because H&C have every right to be pissed that there abilities to run this team have been brought into question in the last few days by noting other than speculation.

They got this team to a AI SF replay against the biggest powerhouse in the country, beating Galway away and last years finalists in the process.

They have every right to plead their case, and from what we believe they have the backing of some important and influential players.

I'm going to wait until I hear the pushing the cars around car parks type stories before I make a judgement on this one

mayo.mick

PressRun wrote: »

Good to see the players sticking together. The ones that weren't there have reasonable excuses, it seems (out of the country, Dublin-based). It's a positive show of strength that would indicate they're not going let a wedge be driven between them.

connacht's attempt didn't work! That's good to see

Kalyke

mayo.mick wrote: »

connacht's attempt didn't work! That's good to see

I think the CT is edited by Eugene McGee..... A very well named "journalist"

Loafing Oaf

ColeTrain wrote: »

It would be crazy for the County Board to back management.

T'would make the Brian McDonald era seem like a haven of sanity alright...

seligehgit

Surely the first item on the agenda for the meeting would have been the players outlining the reasons behind their decision to carry a vote of confidence in the management as a courtesy to same.I'd have thought this would have taken a considerable period of time. Are we to presume this meeting was purely for aesthetics with the battle lines drawn and no serious attempt/wish made by either side to get to the heart of the players concerns.Surely the management deserved some explanation of the rationale behind the nuclear option taken by the players.
Could it be that the player representatives Keith Higgins and Cillian O Connor outlined the rationale behind their decision when they met with Noel Connelly and Pat Holmes at the weekend and unbelievably same contents weren't leaked.
Hopefully we're not in for a Mexican stand off.

Fr Tod Umptious

Gary Neville wrote: »

We've had this scenario in Cork, far too often in the last 15 years or so. ......
Mayo are good enough to win an AI (with the vital slice of good luck) in the next 3 years - management has lost the dressing-room and .....

Luck, and players playing beyond themselbes is a big part of it.

I'm gettinga bit sick of this 'we need a tatitical genius on the side line talk', yea good tactics and good reading of the game is handy but the above two are also huge.

Lets look at the last few managers and see how they fit in the tatatical genius range.

Jim Gavin - With the playing resources in the squad he has he could doze off on the side line and they would still win
Yes they became a bit more defensive this year, but to say it was because of their loss to Donegal last year is a bit of an over reaction.
Last year v Donegal was the biggest bad day at the office scenario since Kerry lost to Meath in 2001.
If they played each other 11 times with the same players the same conditions etc I'd bet Dublin would win 10.

Jimmy McGuiness - Yes 2012 they were brilliant, helped by early goals in the QF and Final that allowed them a cushion.
But apart from 2012 they have been pretty poor.
In 2011 they were the most defensive team in the history of sports and it got them no where, in 2013 admittedly they had injuries and the hangover, but a lot fancied them to beat Mayo that day. Last year they benefited from Dublin have the off day of the century and they failed to beat what was a less than world class Kerry team playing poorly in the final.

Eamon Fitzmaurice - last year hailed as a tactical genius for being the first Kerryman in years to beat a Northern team in a final, but if you look that success was booked ended by losses to Dublin
In 2013 he sprung the totally out of his dept Jack Sherwood from the bench when the the fat was in the fire, this year it was his 36 year old brother in law, back from retirement and who had barely seen action all season.

Mayo need a mix to win an All Ireland

Players who preform above there abilities, not get stupid black cards (you know who I am talking about), or can't hit 21 yard frees (older reader will know who I am talking about)

Luck, teams who have no right to be there (Down 2010)

And a manager who can see something in front of him on the day that is as obvious to the rest of us as the noses on our faces after we watch it for the 14th time on Sky +and Ciaran Whelan or Joe Brolly has told us what should have been done.

Syferus

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Luck, and players playing beyond themselbes is a big part of it.

I'm gettinga bit sick of this 'we need a tatitical genius on the side line talk', yea good tactics and good reading of the game is handy but the above two are also huge.

Lets look at the last few managers and see how they fit in the tatatical genius range.

Jim Gavin - With the playing resources in the squad he has he could doze off on the side line and they would still win
Yes they became a bit more defensive this year, but to say it was because of their loss to Donegal last year is a bit of an over reaction.
Last year v Donegal was the biggest bad day at the office scenario since Kerry lost to Meath in 2001.
If they played each other 11 times with the same players the same conditions etc I'd bet Dublin would win 10.

Jimmy McGuiness - Yes 2012 they were brilliant, helped by early goals in the QF and Final that allowed them a cushion.
But apart from 2012 they have been pretty poor.
In 2011 they were the most defensive team in the history of sports and it got them no where, in 2013 admittedly they had injuries and the hangover, but a lot fancied them to beat Mayo that day. Last year they benefited from Dublin have the off day of the century and they failed to beat what was a less than world class Kerry team playing poorly in the final.

Eamon Fitzmaurice - last year hailed as a tactical genius for being the first Kerryman in years to beat a Northern team in a final, but if you look that success was booked ended by losses to Dublin
In 2013 he sprung the totally out of his dept Jack Sherwood from the bench when the the fat was in the fire, this year it was his 36 year old brother in law, back from retirement and who had barely seen action all season.

Mayo need a mix to win an All Ireland

Players who preform above there abilities, not get stupid black cards (you know who I am talking about), or can't hit 21 yard frees (older reader will know who I am talking about)

Luck, teams who have no right to be there (Down 2010)

And a manager who can see something in front of him on the day that is as obvious to the rest of us as the noses on our faces after we watch it for the 14th time on Sky +and Ciaran Whelan or Joe Brolly has told us what should have been done.

Yeah. Winning Ulster and almost beating Dublin in an AISF at the first time of asking was getting no where.

I don't know if we're watching the same sport sometimes Toddy.