Violent assault leaves two Gardaí in hospital

Paulzx

Deleted User wrote: »

These young fellas see the guards pushing around their mammies and sisters at the water protests, arresting their brothers and oul lads because they then get riled up because of the guards abuse of power.

.

I think a more accuarate staetment is to say that these young fellas see their mammies and daddies sponging off the state, robbing, dealing, engaging in anti social activity, going in and out of prison and disrespecting the law of the land from the day they were born.

It's amazing the habits people pick up off their parents. You don't tend to pick them up off water protests

mynamejeff

mynamejeff wrote: »

And how are you going to explain the 50 for so previous convictions the little toe ragbwill have. Is that because of water charges too ?

Yeah. People have lost respect for the guards now. It's a dangerous state to live in fear instead of respect. When you live in fear, you're far more likely to lash out, but if you have respect, you can have a discussion.

No point having a discussion when one group sees the other side as "subhuman", " scumbags" "toe rags" etc.

JC01

[Deleted User] wrote: »

First off, I don't agree with anything that happened to these Gardai, but I understand it.

These young fellas see the guards pushing around their mammies and sisters at the water protests, arresting their brothers and oul lads because they then get riled up because of the guards abuse of power.

The guards show no respect to the people they are meant to serve.

I know I'll probably get some heat from the right wing side of boards.ie, but the sad truth of it is that this won't be the last hiding guards are going to get, and all they have to blame is their bosses at the DOJ for turning them from guardians of the peace to protectors of the rich and wealthy.

What kinda utter tripe is that? Protectors of the rich and wealthy?? Jesus some people haven't a clue.

On topic the simple solution is punishment. 8 years of hard time for each offender and see are there younger brothers so keen to do the same to a gaurd in future. And by hard time I mean no play stations, no pool tables none of that crap. 10 hour working days doing something constructive so as they are paying for there own incarceration and not burdening the taxpayer.

I nearly hit the radio the other day hearing that the two people in the car that ran that detective over we're charged with possession of a stolen car and dangerous driving or some such nonsense. Should of been attempted murder and assault with a deadly weapon; 20 years on conviction, no remittance no parole. Maybe the next scumbag in the same situation will think twice.

Paulzx

Paulzx wrote: »

I think a more accuarate staetment is to say that these young fellas see their mammies and daddies sponging off the state, robbing, dealing, engaging in anti social activity, going in and out of prison and disrespecting the law of the land from the day they were born.

It's amazing the habits people pick up off their parents. You don't tend to pick them up off water protests

Giant brushes for all. It's really disturbing that people have this Daily Mail attitude to others.
Your statement is no more accurate than mine. These people might need supports, so should we not give them the supports they need? Should we march them off a pier instead?

As for disrespecting the laws of the land, these people are not the reason our future generations are in debt for billions. These people are in and out of jail like you say, for small crimes. Where's the people serving time that stole billions off the Irish people?

eviltwin

I think part of the problem is the gardai, for whatever reason, often don't respond to minor crime/anti social behaviour. It must make these guys feel they have free reign to do what they want. It gives them confidence that they can get away with anything. I know gardai are under pressure and under resourced but they have to start taking these minor incidents more seriously. Government has failed to tackle youth crime adequately and these things only get worse.

JC01

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yeah. People have lost respect for the guards now. It's a dangerous state to live in fear instead of respect. When you live in fear, you're far more likely to lash out, but if you have respect, you can have a discussion.

No point having a discussion when one group sees the other side as "subhuman", " scumbags" "toe rags" etc.

That doesn't explain the 50 convictions though does it? Those convictions will be for assault, robbery, stolen cars etc etc. Mostly crimes committed against hardworking decent people, not gardai, so that whole no respect for law enforcement answer doesn't really hold weight.

JC01

JC01 wrote: »

What kinda utter tripe is that? Protectors of the rich and wealthy?? Jesus some people haven't a clue.

On topic the simple solution is punishment. 8 years of hard time for each offender and see are there younger brothers so keen to do the same to a gaurd in future. And by hard time I mean no play stations, no pool tables none of that crap. 10 hour working days doing something constructive so as they are paying for there own incarceration and not burdening the taxpayer.

Firstly, they are and have been a private security firm for the iw workers. There cannot be an argument there. They do treat people with rougher accents differently than those of a D4/upper class accent. There cannot be an argument there.

Secondly, there are tough prisons and tough sentencing countries out there. Can you name me ONE country you would like to emulate that is the crime free paradise you crave (Or at least a country with low recidivism due to its harsh sentences?)

eviltwin

Deleted User wrote: »

Firstly, they are and have been a private security firm for the iw workers. There cannot be an argument there. They do treat people with rougher accents differently than those of a D4/upper class accent. There cannot be an argument there.

Secondly, there are tough prisons and tough sentencing countries out there. Can you name me ONE country you would like to emulate that is the crime free paradise you crave (Or at least a country with low recidivism due to its harsh sentences?)

The Irish water thing is a red herring. These problems were there long before IW was conceived.

JC01

JC01 wrote: »

That doesn't explain the 50 convictions though does it? Those convictions will be for assault, robbery, stolen cars etc etc. Mostly crimes committed against hardworking decent people, not gardai, so that whole no respect for law enforcement answer doesn't really hold weight.

Why not wait until that info comes out instead of unhelpful speculation and conjecture?

carzony

Jail isnt an option really, they love prison, all their mates are in prison and eventually they get used to getting free meals and free gym. The only way is to hit their parents hard financially.

Birneybau

Deleted User wrote: »

First off, I don't agree with anything that happened to these Gardai, but I understand it.

These young fellas see the guards pushing around their mammies and sisters at the water protests, arresting their brothers and oul lads because they then get riled up because of the guards abuse of power.

The guards show no respect to the people they are meant to serve.

I know I'll probably get some heat from the right wing side of boards.ie, but the sad truth of it is that this won't be the last hiding guards are going to get, and all they have to blame is their bosses at the DOJ for turning them from guardians of the peace to protectors of the rich and wealthy.

Go wan outta that.

eviltwin

carzony wrote: »

Jail isnt an option really, they love prison, all their mates are in prison and eventually they get used to getting free meals and free gym. The only way is to hit their parents hard financially.

Too late I fear when they are teenagers, even if the parents put the foot down they are hardly likely to listen. I'd love to do a study of these young people and find out why they are so disenfranchised and angry that they feel the need to act this way. Maybe they feel that instilling fear into a community gives them respect that is lacking elsewhere.

eviltwin

eviltwin wrote: »

The Irish water thing is a red herring. These problems were there long before IW was conceived.

No, it's not.

People have called guards for break ins, fights outside their houses, intimidation towards immigrants, muggings etc. Generally it takes at least an hour to get a guard to your place. But when water meters are going in, they see 15-20 guards, standing around.

I get that law breaking is not a new thing, but the guards, by doing these deeds are making their jobs much, much harder on themselves.

But it is definitely not a red herring, and I believe things are going to get an awful lot worse, before they get better.

Bogsnorkler

Deleted User wrote: »

No, it's not.

People have called guards for break ins, fights outside their houses, intimidation towards immigrants, muggings etc. Generally it takes at least an hour to get a guard to your place. But when water meters are going in, they see 15-20 guards, standing around.

I get that law breaking is not a new thing, but the guards, by doing these deeds are making their jobs much, much harder on themselves.

But it is definitely not a red herring, and I believe things are going to get an awful lot worse, before they get better.

If that truly was the case, would there not be mass civil disobedience/disregard of law ball water protesters?

I call BS, as the vast majority of water protesters don't get pushed around by the guards, as they protest peacefully/ don't abuse people.

eviltwin

Deleted User wrote: »

No, it's not.

People have called guards for break ins, fights outside their houses, intimidation towards immigrants, muggings etc. Generally it takes at least an hour to get a guard to your place. But when water meters are going in, they see 15-20 guards, standing around.

I get that law breaking is not a new thing, but the guards, by doing these deeds are making their jobs much, much harder on themselves.

But it is definitely not a red herring, and I believe things are going to get an awful lot worse, before they get better.

In every working class area of Dublin there were these problems going back years so I don't buy the IW excuse. Of course diverting gardai to protecting meters means less gardai to respond to incidents and may be that makes these guys feel free to do what they like but you can't blame gardai for that. I'm pretty sure none joined up to stand around a hole in the ground but they have to go where they are told.

Birneybau

Bogsnorkler wrote: »

If that truly was the case, would there not be mass civil disobedience/disregard of law ball water protesters?

I call BS, as the vast majority of water protesters don't get pushed around by the guards, as they protest peacefully/ don't abuse people.

PEACEFUL PROTEST *shakes car, get's right up in Guard's face* PEACEFUL PROTEST.

handlemaster

[Deleted User] wrote: »

First off, I don't agree with anything that happened to these Gardai, but I understand it.

These young fellas see the guards pushing around their mammies and sisters at the water protests, arresting their brothers and oul lads because they then get riled up because of the guards abuse of power.

The guards show no respect to the people they are meant to serve.

I know I'll probably get some heat from the right wing side of boards.ie, but the sad truth of it is that this won't be the last hiding guards are going to get, and all they have to blame is their bosses at the DOJ for turning them from guardians of the peace to protectors of the rich and wealthy.

Not been smart or condesending with you but I would really like to know how far have you gone educationally ? Your opinion seems very juveille. When you think the protectors of the law of the land who are unarmed are seriously assaulted you dont say anything about the attackers.

carzony

eviltwin wrote: »

Too late I fear when they are teenagers, even if the parents put the foot down they are hardly likely to listen. I'd love to do a study of these young people and find out why they are so disenfranchised and angry that they feel the need to act this way. Maybe they feel that instilling fear into a community gives them respect that is lacking elsewhere.

I think it's too late and no matter what happens these people will cost the taxpayer money in the long run. Saying that, Lots of kids get in trouble when they are young and regret it later in life so who knows...

Boskowski

Deleted User wrote: »

These young fellas see the guards pushing around their mammies and sisters at the water protests, arresting their brothers and oul lads because they then get riled up because of the guards abuse of power.

I don't think it serves any purpose to push ones personal agenda into every single discussion regardless how remote the connection. What's next thats linked to water charges? Seriously it serves your agenda no purpose either, it just gets tiring and annoying.

Scumbags running riot attacking gards. No one wants to talk about water protests in that context, can't you see that?

One eyed Jack

Deleted User wrote: »

No, it's not.

People have called guards for break ins, fights outside their houses, intimidation towards immigrants, muggings etc. Generally it takes at least an hour to get a guard to your place. But when water meters are going in, they see 15-20 guards, standing around.

I get that law breaking is not a new thing, but the guards, by doing these deeds are making their jobs much, much harder on themselves.

But it is definitely not a red herring, and I believe things are going to get an awful lot worse, before they get better.

It's absolutely a red herring when antisocial behaviour existed long before any IW or bankers or any of the rest of that nonsense you're trying to use to divert attention away from talking about the actual issue, which is how to tackle antisocial behaviour in communities that have been decimated and people in those communities living their lives in fear of these delinquents. That has nothing to do with bankers or IW.

It has a lot more to do with the fact that these teenagers learn early from their parent's apathy and complete disregard for any form of authority that they don't feel they have to contribute anything to society. They learn a selfish, entitled, lazy attitude from their parents that they never have to contribute, just take what they want, do what they want, because there are no effective sanctions for their behaviour.

eviltwin

eviltwin wrote: »

In every working class area of Dublin there were these problems going back years so I don't buy the IW excuse. Of course diverting gardai to protecting meters means less gardai to respond to incidents and may be that makes these guys feel free to do what they like but you can't blame gardai for that. I'm pretty sure none joined up to stand around a hole in the ground but they have to go where they are told.

Yeah heroin f*cked up a lot of things. But I look at where I'm from. Back in the 80's it was a council estate with a heroin, unemployment and later, a joy-riding problem. Eventually, people died off, or got sent to prison, some died there. The trouble makers parents died, the trouble makers stopped making trouble and matured. My estate is pretty nice now. Not everyone works, but people look after each other in the community.

I don't think it'll last forever.

I have seen videos that my mam and other community activists have posted. They have not let any water meters in yet. It's a tough battle when the guards never stand up for you.

Whether or not people agree with the water meters, the Gardai should have stayed impartial on this. IW should have hired a private security firm with one or two Gardai overseeing the process, impartially.

I don't know where this is going to end up, but we need the guards to work with the communities themselves to try and get respect NOT FEAR, back into the community.

And respect is a two way street.

mynamejeff

Deleted User wrote: »

Yeah. People have lost respect for the guards now. It's a dangerous state to live in fear instead of respect. When you live in fear, you're far more likely to lash out, but if you have respect, you can have a discussion.

No point having a discussion when one group sees the other side as "subhuman", " scumbags" "toe rags" etc.

Ya I agree its terrible how some sections of our sub society view decent people as walking money to be robbed and law enforcement as targets and outlets for gang violence.

We have policing by consent in Ireland. Unfortunately people like this aren't doing their part so they need to be removed from society to protect their victims from them.

One eyed Jack

One eyed Jack wrote: »

It's absolutely a red herring when antisocial behaviour existed long before any IW or bankers or any of the rest of that nonsense you're trying to use to divert attention away from talking about the actual issue, which is how to tackle antisocial behaviour in communities that have been decimated and people in those communities living their lives in fear of these delinquents. That has nothing to do with bankers or IW.

It has a lot more to do with the fact that these teenagers learn early from their parent's apathy and complete disregard for any form of authority that they don't feel they have to contribute anything to society. They learn a selfish, entitled, lazy attitude from their parents that they never have to contribute, just take what they want, do what they want, because there are no effective sanctions for their behaviour.

Is banging them up going to change that?

Eugene Norman

handlemaster wrote: »

Not been smart or condesending with you but I would really like to know how far have gone educationally ? Your opinion seems very juveille. When you think the protectors of the law of the land who are unarmed are seriously assaulted you dont say anything about the attackers.

The whole "I don't want to insult you but.." argument which then goes onto an insult is surely some kind of logical fallacy. And his post was written well. Not that I agree with it.

Eugene Norman

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Is banging them up going to change that?

Probably would be more helpful than not banging them up.

handlemaster

Eugene Norman wrote: »

The whole "I don't want to insult you but.." argument which then goes onto an insult is surely some kind of logical fallacy. And his post was written. Not that I agree with it.

The water protestors made me do it your honor

Dan_Solo

handlemaster wrote: »

Not been smart or condesending with you but I would really like to know how far have you gone educationally ?

And typo of the day award goes to...

Birneybau

handlemaster wrote: »

Not been smart or condesending with you but I would really like to know how far have you gone educationally ? Your opinion seems very juveille. When you think the protectors of the law of the land who are unarmed are seriously assaulted you dont say anything about the attackers.

I believe in the intention of your post but the whole irony of 'people in glass houses...' isn't lost on me.

Eugene Norman

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Probably would be more helpful than not banging them up.

As I asked above.

Can someone give ONE country (that we would aspire to) with tougher sentencing that has proven tougher sentencing brings down crime rates, especially recidivism?

blade1

Dan_Solo wrote: »

And typo of the day award goes to...

Birneybau wrote: »

I believe in the intention of your post but the whole irony of 'people in glass houses...' isn't lost on me.

Hahaha I love when that happens!!:D

Boskowski

Deleted User wrote: »

As I asked above.

Can someone give ONE country (that we would aspire to) with tougher sentencing that has proven tougher sentencing brings down crime rates, especially recidivism?

Seems to work in the USA.

Boskowski

Dan_Solo wrote: »

The USA has lower crime rates than Ireland?

I don't know, I suspect not, but it has brought them down apparently.

eviltwin

Boskowski wrote: »

I don't know, I suspect not, but it has brought them down apparently.

Is that just down to the legal system though or other changes to services, supports etc.

Omackeral

Talk of fear of the Gardai the last few pages is utter bollocks in all honesty. I grew up in a working class environment and never knew a copper by name and they never knew me. Wanna know why? It's because I wasn't an absolute scrote bag causing a nuisance on my estate. Played football, hung out with mates in our houses playing FIFA or chilled at the community centre, went on adventures down by the canal. Youngsters today have more at their disposal than I had, every area has an astro pitch these days but still "there's nothing to do". That doesn't wash with me.

One eyed Jack

Deleted User wrote: »

Is banging them up going to change that?

Where did I even suggest that?

FWIW btw, there are Gardai (Community Liaison Officers) and all sorts of organisations trying to work with these delinquents to give them a chance to make a better life for themselves, but the minority who have no interest in making a better life for themselves and have no interest in contributing to society should be made an example of before they have a chance to ruin the lives of those who actually do want to work with Gardai and the people in their local communities to improve their areas.

Your nonsense about mutual respect is just that. The minority like those delinquents that assaulted Gardai have no respect for anyone, they simply don't care, so they should be made to care, by force if necessary. Some people simply don't understand any other way.

Dan_Solo

Boskowski wrote: »

I don't know, I suspect not, but it has brought them down apparently.

http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Ireland/United-States/Crime

Total crimes per 1000
Ireland Ranked 40th. 20.67
United States Ranked 22nd. 41.29 Twice as much as Ireland

That'd be a no then. Opposite in fact.

handlemaster

Birneybau wrote: »

I believe in the intention of your post but the whole irony of 'people in glass houses...' isn't lost on me.

You got me there. I have a very small mobile screen and I dont have time to go back over everything I write or for that matter interested in doing the same. When the Nazi spelling squad come out it gets Boring.

carzony

Problem is most people in Ireland seems to laugh at the Gardai/legal system even for 'minor' crimes.

look at the amount of people banned from driving every year which is a huge number and still most of them continue to drive regardless, literally 2-3 hundred thousand cars on the road with no nct/tax and lets not forget the number of people refusing to pay fines and do a 'handy' hour in prison to write it off.

If you can't get the basic offences right then for get about the rest...

Boskowski

Boskowski wrote: »

Seems to work in the USA.

Try again...

http://www.citypages.com/news/minnesota-criminal-recidivism-rate-is-nations-worst-6543343

"Catching the guy and prosecuting him is really important work, but if we don't do anything with that individual after we've got him, then shame on us. If all that effort goes to waste and we just open the doors five years later, and it's the same guy walking out the door and the same criminal thinking, we've failed in our mission."

Here's a government page: http://www.nij.gov/topics/corrections/recidivism/pages/welcome.aspx

76% recidivism within 5 years.

Dyr

Deleted User wrote: »

As I asked above.

Can someone give ONE country (that we would aspire to) with tougher sentencing that has proven tougher sentencing brings down crime rates, especially recidivism?

I do know that recidivism rates for people who are locked up are around zero

the problem is we let them out again

Eugene Norman

[Deleted User] wrote: »

As I asked above.

Can someone give ONE country (that we would aspire to) with tougher sentencing that has proven tougher sentencing brings down crime rates, especially recidivism?

The U.S. has reduced crime rates from a very high to a high level but it probably doesn't satisfy the parenthetical part of that argument.

However crime can't happen when somebody is locked up, even if recidivism does happen after, and that's part of the reason to lock people up.

There's a sea between "lock them up and throw away the key" and "what does prison solve anyway" and we veer to much to the latter.

Boskowski

Dan_Solo wrote: »

http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Ireland/United-States/Crime

That'd be a no then. Opposite in fact.

Well the question was about bringing them down or not. Not about absolute numbers.

I thought it was widely recognised that for example Guilianis zero tolerance and 3 strikes has improved New York quite a bit. I'm not terribly well informed though, its just what I picked up from the news.

Dan_Solo

handlemaster wrote: »

You got me there. I have a very small mobile screen and I dont have time to go back over everything I write or for that matter interested in doing the same. When the Nazi spelling squad come out it gets Boring.

Whereas when the personal abuse squad arrives, it really helps the discussion doesn't it.

Dyr

Actually what would be interesting would be to maps repeat offenders against family histories.

I reckon you'll find the biggest scrotes actually come from a long, long line of serial offending scummers.

jugger

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Really? When have they ever erred on the side of too little as a matter of interest?

This very thread is about one !!!

Dan_Solo

Boskowski wrote: »

Well the question was about bringing them down or not. Not about absolute numbers.

I thought it was widely recognised that for example Guilianis zero tolerance and 3 strikes has improved New York quite a bit. I'm not terribly well informed though, its just what I picked up from the news.

The alternative view was that more liberal abortions quite literally bred them out over time...

Dan_Solo

jugger wrote: »

This very thread is about one !!!

Nope, it's about police who were unable to deal out the appropriate response. There's no evidence either way on what they were trying to do.

AudreyHepburn

Deleted User wrote: »

First off, I don't agree with anything that happened to these Gardai, but I understand it.

These young fellas see the guards pushing around their mammies and sisters at the water protests, arresting their brothers and oul lads because they then get riled up because of the guards abuse of power.

The guards show no respect to the people they are meant to serve.

I know I'll probably get some heat from the right wing side of boards.ie, but the sad truth of it is that this won't be the last hiding guards are going to get, and all they have to blame is their bosses at the DOJ for turning them from guardians of the peace to protectors of the rich and wealthy.

There's so much rubbish in this post I don't know where to start.

Suffice trying the blame for a person wracking some 50 odd convictions by the age of 15 on the Government and the Gardai and anyone else you care to include is woefully naive at best.

But I suppose it's easier just to point fingers at those in power then lay the blame where it belongs.....on these violent little thugs and their parents who either can't or more likely won't control and discipline them.

Boskowski

Dan_Solo wrote: »

The alternative view was that more liberal abortions quite literally bred them out over time...

Bit of a jump there. Not exactly staying on the line of argument or even on your own question.

Eugene Norman

Dan_Solo wrote: »

http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Ireland/United-States/Crime

That'd be a no then. Opposite in fact.

No. You would have to look at the American crime rate over time since it has gotten more draconian. Also the Irish crime rate over the same time since it hasn't.