Irelands Mediterranean Migrant Crisis Response

Cold War Kid

ComfortKid wrote: »

Yes, so are we, so what are you disputing?

People who are pretending those in genuine desperation don't exist/downplaying their suffering/pretending clearly desperate people are just scammers.

riffmongous

Wanderer78 wrote: »

i wouldnt say libya's a metropolis though. i know an irish chap that was pretty much evacuated outta there last year in a hurry due to it being unsafe

There is definitely a conflict there and Turkey is also going that way too with PKK related violence recently

foggy_lad

Gatling wrote: »

These groups travelling across the EU to get to Germany aren't in desperation though

ComfortKid wrote: »

"MAY HAVE" yet if I say he MAY NOT be genuine I get ridiculed.

He risked hes own and his families lifes to leave a safe country where he was safe for 3 years.

If you or I put our family on an inflatable boat and they died on the same journey we would be charged with manslaughter.

ComfortKid

Cold War Kid wrote:

People who are pretending those in genuine desperation don't exist/downplaying their suffering.

No, I haven't seen that anywhere either. Show me a post where someone downplayed the genuine Syrian refugees suffering? Show me a post where someone said there is no genuine refugees escaping from Syria..

Gatling

riffmongous wrote: »

Turkey is also going that way too with PKK related violence recently

That's been going on for decades now it's no where near Libya or Syria current situations

Cold War Kid

ComfortKid wrote: »

No, I haven't seen that anywhere either. Show me a post where someone downplayed the genuine Syrian refugees suffering? Show me a post where someone said there is no genuine refugees escaping from Syria..

Look at this thread alone. Look at Foggy_lad alone's posts. Sneering at that man, sarcastically making reference to his "precious" boys. Despicable.

petrolcan

ComfortKid wrote: »

They should be met by a wall of military tanks. Given a choice

Sign up to a safe refugee camp, go back where you came from or die.

No problem with genuine refugees but these chancers need to be shown no mercy

Ah, another pleasant individual.

ComfortKid

petrolcan wrote:

Ah, another pleasant individual.

What do you suggest, let them all in with no documentation? No proof of where they are coming from? This idea would deter the migrants and make it easier and faster for genuine refugees!

AlekSmart

Cold War Kid wrote: »

But come on, if that was the level of back-up given in relation to a position you agreed with, you wouldn't be questioning it.

It's confusing when people who are so critical of ISIS (and rightly so) condemn/are suspicious of those fleeing from them.I have no problems with concerns about economic migrants or islamic fundamentalists (of course) - but the suffering and desperation of the refugees is plain to see on our news stations. There's no "staging" going on.

I don't get the need for people like foggy_lad who otherwise act as if they're decent, to be so lacking in compassion. And before someone says something about "feels" - humanitarian concerns are nothing new. They're not an internet or "SJW" invention. It's part of what makes this society better than the ones they are fleeing.

Accepting a level of genuine concern regarding the bona fides of these migrants is welcome.

I would commend CWK on this attitude,as most responses to the contrary,appear to suggest that those opposing a relaxation of current long-standing A&I requirements are extremists,racists or xenophobes of varying levels.

Media coverage of the current crisis is indeed to a certain level of acceptance and correctness,with images and accounts which conform to the required on-message status always to the fore.

Thus,photo journalism will tend to prioritize the images of the 25% Women,Children or Disabled ahead of the 75% unaccompanied military age males,simply because that will sell to the European News Agencies,all of whom will be in reciept of regular briefings from the Governmental agencies involved,as well as the highly adroit NGO's who each seek to prioritize their own particular field of operations.

In time,as the immediacy of the situation declines,and the inevitable problems are farmed out across a less than fully acceptant European populace,the media will move to whatever new humanitarian emergency arises,and the smaller localized issues will be left to simmer in isolation.

I'm unsure as to whether we,in Western Europe have the right to describe "our" Western societal culture,in terms such as "It's part of what makes this society better than the ones they are fleeing."

It may not have been the intention,but it comes across as claiming some moral high ground that could be argued by our new arrivees.

Some of these cultures represent the oldest recorded existence of life on this planet,which,as we see with recent ISIS attacks in Palmyra,represent a clear target for their destructive powers.

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/09/rubble-palmyra-syria-isis/403921/

Where they burn books, they will ultimately burn people, Heine rightly warned in one of his plays. At Palmyra the sequence was reversed but the logic was the same. They began by killing people. Khaled al-Assad was not only an expert on Palmyra’s antiquities, he was also their protector. For 50 years he served as the city’s director of antiquities, presiding over excavations and restorations, assisting scholars from around the world in their study of the rich history of the ancient metropolis. When ISIS captured Palmyra last spring, many of its statues and its smaller objects were taken into hiding to protect them from the marauders. ISIS held Assad for a month and tortured him, in the hope that he would reveal the location of the hidden treasures, which they abhorred for religious reasons but coveted for economic reasons. The holy warriors were also plunderers; they financed their depredations in part by the sale of the idols they despised.

It appears that this hero of archaeology and the history of art told the caliphate’s thugs nothing, and in late August they butchered him publicly. A masked swordsman beheaded him. His bleeding body was hung on a traffic light, with a placard calling him an “apostate” and denouncing him for attending “infidel conferences.” His severed, still-bespectacled head was displayed on the ground beneath his corpse. He was 82. By all accounts Khaled al-Assad was a good Muslim, and also a supporter of Bashar al-Assad. But in the practice of his calling he was an exemplary humanist, in a terrifying land where humanism is apostasy and apostasy is death. He did not perish for a political ideal; he perished for a cultural ideal. He was a martyr for the ideal of civilization.

The extent of savagery perpetrated in the name of their crusade is well known,yet the reality of a Western European world now increasing it's exposure level to such threats apparently cannot be debated on mainstream channels ?

Gatling

Cold War Kid wrote: »

Look at this thread alone. Look at Foggy_lad alone's posts. Sneering at that man, sarcastically making reference to his "precious" boys. Despicable.

He's a point though you put your wife and kids into a dodgy dingy while keeping the only life jacket for yourself says alot about a person in my opinion.

It's like exiting a burning building and locking the door behind you so you can go to call for help

ComfortKid

Cold War Kid wrote:

Look at this thread alone. Look at Foggy_lad alone's posts. Sneering at that man, sarcastically making reference to his "precious" boys. Despicable.

Did he or anyone say that there is no genuine refugees? No!

Did he or anyone deny the suffering genuine refugees trying escape from Syria are going through? No!

Stop lying.

petrolcan

ComfortKid wrote: »

What do you suggest, let them all in with no documentation? No proof of where they are coming from? This idea would deter the migrants and make it easier and faster for genuine refugees!

I'm quite happy to admit that I don't have a solution.

I'm also not advocating death if they don't turn around to where they came from!

Pat Mustard

Mod:

The problems on this thread are:

1. Racist nonsense quoting spurious sources.
2. Abuse and calling people trolls.
3. Trolling.
4. Replies to trolling; feeding the trolls.
5. Posters sniping at each other.
6. Off topic posting.
7. Discussing bans on other forums, which is very much off topic.
8. Arguing with moderators on-thread.

All of this behaviour stops now or there will be cards and bans.

Major rules to remember are to attack the post, not the poster and don't be a dick.

Old Jakey and FelineOverLord, please do not post in this thread again.

petrolcan

Gatling wrote: »

He's a point though you put your wife and kids into a dodgy dingy while keeping the only life jacket for yourself says alot about a person in my opinion.

It's like exiting a burning building and locking the door behind you so you can go to call for help

Where did you find that the father was wearing a life jacket?

"Mr Kurdi said that the boat’s captain, a Turk, panicked when high waves battered the boat and jumped into the sea. The lifejackets the Kurdi family carried were lost when the boat capsized. “I took over and started steering, the waves were so high and the boat flipped,” said Mr Kurdi. “I was holding my wife’s hand. My children slipped away from my hands. We tried to hold on to the boat. Everyone was screaming in pitch darkness"

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/abdullah-kurdi-father-of-drowned-son-aylan-describes-the-moment-his-two-children-slipped-away-10485387.html

Cold War Kid

Comfort Kid, I would not say something if I didn't believe it was true. Have a look at some of the posts on this thread downplaying the suffering of those fleeing these conflict areas.
Fine if Foggy_lad questions the man's actions - no issue with that. What's reprehensible is his sneering at a man who has lost his children.

AlekSmart wrote: »

Accepting a level of genuine concern regarding the bona fides of these migrants is welcome.

I would commend CWK on this attitude,as most responses to the contrary,appear to suggest that those opposing a relaxation of current long-standing A&I requirements are extremists,racists or xenophobes of varying levels.

Media coverage of the current crisis is indeed to a certain level of acceptance and correctness,with images and accounts which conform to the required on-message status always to the fore.

Thus,photo journalism will tend to prioritize the images of the 25% Women,Children or Disabled ahead of the 75% unaccompanied military age males,simply because that will sell to the European News Agencies,all of whom will be in reciept of regular briefings from the Governmental agencies involved,as well as the highly adroit NGO's who each seek to prioritize their own particular field of operations.

In time,as the immediacy of the situation declines,and the inevitable problems are farmed out across a less than fully acceptant European populace,the media will move to whatever new humanitarian emergency arises,and the smaller localized issues will be left to simmer in isolation.

I'm unsure as to whether we,in Western Europe have the right to describe "our" Western societal culture,in terms such as "It's part of what makes this society better than the ones they are fleeing."

It may not have been the intention,but it comes across as claiming some moral high ground that could be argued by our new arrivees.

I'd stand by it though. This is a better society in which to live and raise children, than the ones they are fleeing. And by miles for women.

I do agree with your concerns about extremism, but how can those fleeing ISIS be the same as them?

Pat Mustard

Cold War Kid wrote: »

What's reprehensible is his sneering at a man who has lost his children.

Mod:

This is a forum for debate and discussion. I asked that the sniping should stop. You can either attack his post or you can refrain from posting. The sniping adds nothing to the discussion and is dragging it off topic.

All of the sniping stops now.

Galwayguy35

So 1800 is the figure the Government seem to be hinting at, but still no information as to how they will sort out the genuine refugees from the economic migrants and will there be backround checks done.

TBH I don't see how it will be possible to check if people have no passports, or any documents for that matter on their person to say how they are.

Seemingly several thousand people have offered to give a room to them and want the Government to match the figure, a noble sentiment but I wonder have they thought this through?

How do they know who they are letting into their home?

Will they foot the bill for the welfare of the refugees?

I doubt it somehow.

Some have made comparisons with the Polish etc coming here which is ridiculous, the EE arrived ready and able to work, speak English, find accommodation and pay their way and contribute to the economy.

The refugees will be relying on the taxpayer to help look after their needs, 1800 we can cope with but thousands more like what the left say should be let in, not a hope.

Whether deliberate or not there also seems to be little or no debate on this with totally one sided discussion on the television and radio over the last few days and interviewers (who I won't name here) who are anything but impartial which is what they should be.

Wanderer78

i have feeling this whole thing will blow up in our faces coming from a financial and practical point of view. we cant even house our own at the moment. this is a mess

JONJO THE MISER

Streetwalker wrote: »

Can't have boards seen in a bad light can we :rolleyes:

Seems to me this site is just following the sheep in the media and banning all discussion from those opposed to the influx of Muslims into Europe and in particular Ireland. We all need to get with the programme apparently.

As for seeing that video on RTE haha dream on.

100% correct, RTE are pro open borders as are most of the media in this country.
On Liveline last week only 1 person was allowed on that went against this viewpoint, they did not dare do a phone poll to see the what the people thought.
Then on Primetime we had all 3 guests pro mass immigration, no balance at all.

Wanderer78

like most, im deeply saddened to watch all this unfold but we need to come up with some sort of plan that will have a better chance of working for us all. this situation has the potential to financially break many countries in europe including our own. practically, i really dont think we can house many of these people if any at all. ive no idea what the solution is, but we better get thinking fast. i can see this as potential euro collapser if its not dealt with correctly.

Mr. teddywinkles

Cold War Kid wrote: »

They do though. And they are refusing to believe they are refugees.

Prove that one person is a economic migrant over a genuine refugee. Can you do that?

Mr. teddywinkles

Wanderer78 wrote: »

like most, im deeply saddened to watch all this unfold but we need to come up with some sort of plan that will have a better chance of working for us all. this situation has the potential to financially break many countries in europe including our own. practically, i really dont think we can house many of these people if any at all. ive no idea what the solution is, but we better get thinking fast. i can see this as potential euro collapser if its not dealt with correctly.

Conspiracy theory but ISIS comes to mind :-o

Cold War Kid

Mr. teddywinkles wrote: »

Prove that one person is a economic migrant over a genuine refugee. Can you do that?

As someone says on another discussion (from both sides) in the European Union forum of this topic which is apparently "censored" the two aren't always mutually exclusive.

I would view the people who are desperate enough to travel in a truck, in dangerous conditions, who are having to live in filth and misery... as likely to be genuine. I don't know what's unreasonable about this conclusion.

Mr. teddywinkles

Cold War Kid wrote: »

As someone says on another discussion (from both sides) in the European Union forum of this topic which is apparently "censored" the two aren't always mutually exclusive.

I would view the people who are desperate enough to travel in a truck, in dangerous conditions, who are having to live in filth and misery... as likely to be genuine. I don't know what's unreasonable about this conclusion.

So that's how we filter them out so. Wait for the truck. :-(

tonycascarino

JustTheOne wrote: »

Let's be honest al Qaeda and isis must not know there luck with how easy it Will be to send fighters into Europe.

Isis have said they already sent 4000 disguised as refugees.

This part I do have a problem with.

I'd say they cannot believe their luck re how naive & stupid Europeans are and how easy it will be to attack. Merkel and company are apes of the highest degree. The whole situation is extremely badly handled.

tonycascarino

JONJO THE MISER wrote: »

100% correct, RTE are pro open borders as are most of the media in this country.
On Liveline last week only 1 person was allowed on that went against this viewpoint, they did not dare do a phone poll to see the what the people thought.
Then on Primetime we had all 3 guests pro mass immigration, no balance at all.

Anything the EU want RTE is with them. If the EU wanted to kill every first born child of every family in this country, RTE & our Government would agree with them.

Cold War Kid

Mr. teddywinkles wrote: »

So that's how we filter them out so. Wait for the truck. :-(

But there are border-checks, immigration control interviews.
Not everyone who is advocating reaching out to the people genuinely in dire straits is automatically in favour of open borders - it seems to be seen as though people can only be one way or the other.
In the same way that not all who have concerns about who is let into the country are racist/xenophobic.

johnty56

Cold War Kid wrote: »

But there are border-checks, immigration control interviews.
Not everyone who is advocating reaching out to the people genuinely in dire straits is automatically in favour of open borders - it seems to be seen as though people can only be one way or the other.
In the same way that not all who have concerns about who is let into the country are racist/xenophobic.

I'm not so sure about the border-checks and immigration controls. How could the Hungarian officials have conducted any on those who broke down fences and streamed across their border last week? Honest question?

JustTheOne

tonycascarino wrote: »

Anything the EU want RTE is with them. If the EU wanted to kill every first born child of every family in this country, RTE & our Government would agree with them.

As I have said Sinn Fein have always been pro immigration. They want open borders.

The only party who oppose this are that anti immigration crowd but they have been attacked by groups already at their conferences.

smurfjed

I'm curious as to why these migrants aren't moving SOUTH, towards their religious center point, kind of like the jews following WW2 who wanted to move towards Jerusalem, why aren't the migrants moving towards Makkah?

Wanderer78

smurfjed wrote: »

I'm curious as to why these migrants aren't moving SOUTH, towards their religious center point, kind of like the jews following WW2 who wanted to move towards Jerusalem, why aren't the migrants moving towards Makkah?

theyre heading to the promised land

smurfjed

theyre heading to the promised land

Financial or religious? I'm guessing the former.

ComfortKid

JustTheOne wrote:

As I have said Sinn Fein have always been pro immigration. They want open borders.

WTF has anything here got to do with Sinn Fein?

Mr. teddywinkles

JustTheOne wrote: »

As I have said Sinn Fein have always been pro immigration. They want open borders.

The only party who oppose this are that anti immigration crowd but they have been attacked by groups already at their conferences.

If this situation is not handled right definite consequences down the road for Europe. This is taken very lightly and the bleeding hearts are crying out the loudest.

JustTheOne

ComfortKid wrote: »

WTF has anything here got to do with Sinn Fein?

Because their the biggest advocate and their popularity is rising quickly.

Could be in power next year so they have a lot to do with how this situation could be handled over next few years.

ComfortKid

JustTheOne wrote:

Because their the biggest advocate and their popularity is rising quickly.

JustTheOne wrote:

Could be in power next year so they have a lot to do with how this situation could be handled over next few years.

I still don't see how it's in any way relevant to this thread? I don't know if you are a Sinn Fein supporter or hater, but they have absolutely nothing to do with this thread. As you said, All the major partys are for this bar one.

johnty56

JustTheOne wrote: »

Because their the biggest advocate and their popularity is rising quickly.

Could be in power next year so they have a lot to do with how this situation could be handled over next few years.

Sinn Fein have made an extreme tactical error with their stance on immigration. Their core target demographic is the one which has the most to lose if we see a large scale migration into Ireland as they are the one who will be competing for housing, jobs, welfare, education and healthcare with the migrants.
The voters who Sinn Fein are trying to woo with this open door policy, wouldn't touch them with a shiity stick and never will.
they have guaranteed that they will form no part of the next government with this move.

Rhys Essien

The Craziness is continuing this evening in the Med with the LE Niamh picking up 317 Men,11 Women and 1 child.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0905/725874-le-niamh/

This is utter lunacy.A laughing stock.Collecting economic migrants.

Europe needs to do a leaflet drop on Libya telling everyone the joke is over.

I sympathise fully with the Syrians.

foggy_lad

johnty56 wrote: »

Sinn Fein have made an extreme tactical error with their stance on immigration. Their core target demographic is the one which has the most to lose if we see a large scale migration into Ireland as they are the one who will be competing for housing, jobs, welfare, education and healthcare with the migrants.
The voters who Sinn Fein are trying to woo with this open door policy, wouldn't touch them with a shiity stick and never will.
they have guaranteed that they will form no part of the next government with this move.

I would agree but the same demographic are probably most likely to double up a couple of their kids in a bedroom to make room for someone in genuine need while others in larger houses will pledge well but like many political pledges they don't do so well when it is time to pay the piper.

smurfjed

Germany has stated that it will accept 800,000 refugees this year, thats 1% of their population, In Ireland, that would equate to about 45,000 people. Based on our present financial situation, is this number sustainable, how could we finance the required support structure?

Leaving distance, culture, religion etc out of the question, can we as a country actually afford that sort of influx?

ComfortKid

smurfjed wrote:

Germany has stated that it will accept 800,000 refugees this year, thats 1% of their population, In Ireland, that would equate to about 45,000 people. Based on our present financial situation, is this number sustainable, how could we finance the required support structure?

Why should we make decisions based on what Germany does? We are in a completely different situation to them.

foggy_lad

smurfjed wrote: »

Germany has stated that it will accept 800,000 refugees this year, thats 1% of their population, In Ireland, that would equate to about 45,000 people. Based on our present financial situation, is this number sustainable, how could we finance the required support structure?

Leaving distance, culture, religion etc out of the question, can we as a country actually afford that sort of influx?

Financially I imagine it would be a serious stretch even if we were set up to immediately house and cater for those numbers but as we would have to build or renovate buildings for refugees as well as providing services such as for cooking and health services etc the cost would be prohibitive. Even back in the early 90s Cherry Orchard nurses home was gutted back to the bare internal walls and completely redecorated, rewired and re-plumbed including disposal of the original sinks and toilet bowls which were perfect but were "hospital" issue which at the time raised a lot of controversy as it was deemed plenty good enough for nurses to be accommodated in and to have to pay for their rooms. Talk of using nama housing stock or ghost estates etc is a non runner because of the complications in buying and sorting out planning for the houses as well as getting local communities on side and many of the areas would not be central enough for other services to be provided.


http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/hazel-hotel-in-kildare-to-be-first-refuge-for-500-syrians-1.2340878
The Hazel Hotel in Monasterevin is being used as an orientation centre for the 520 program refugees that are coming to Ireland this year and after a few months there they will be placed in more permanent accommodation around the country but the Minister does not say where this will be or what type of accommodation it will be. but these "program" refugees will not be housed in direct provision so will most likely be placed in council or rental accommodation at a time of great shortage of such accommodation for Irish people.


Will national schools in areas these refugees are placed be given extra resource teachers to cater for the extra loading from teaching more children with no or little english?

Rhys Essien

The Med mission now needs to be stopped immediately.Europe is now going to have enough on its plate with the Syrians coming through Turkey.Enda needs to man up and say he is not going to put more pressure on mainland Europe collecting economic migrants as we have done this evening.

ComfortKid

Off topic, sort of, but this is hilarious!

Rhys Essien

ComfortKid wrote: »

Off topic, sort of, but this is hilarious!

Feck thats funny.Thats like something George W.Bush would come out with.

tonycascarino

Rhys Essien wrote: »

The Med mission now needs to be stopped immediately.Europe is now going to have enough on its plate with the Syrians coming through Turkey. Enda needs to man up and say he is not going to put more pressure on mainland Europe collecting economic migrants as we have done this evening.

Enda won't man up to anything. He is gutless. If Angela said bend over Enda would do so in a heartbeat.

smurfjed

Financially I imagine it would be a serious stretch even if we were set up to immediately house and cater for those numbers but as we would have to build or renovate buildings for refugees as well as providing services such as for cooking and health services etc the cost would be prohibitive.

Then what do we do next year?

I have quite a number of Syrian friends, i hate the situation that their families are existing under, but alas i don't see how an island of 4.5 million people can absorb a 1% ratio of immigrants per annum.

Plus I would also prefer if the IRC or similar got to select the refugees rather than accepting those who managed to pay for their passage to Europe.

foggy_lad

smurfjed wrote: »

Then what do we do next year?

I have quite a number of Syrian friends, i hate the situation that their families are existing under, but alas i don't see how an island of 4.5 million people can absorb a 1% ratio of immigrants per annum.

Plus I would also prefer if the IRC or similar got to select the refugees rather than accepting those who managed to pay for their passage to Europe.

The programme refugees are arriving in smaller groups between now and the end of next year so they will account for maybe 100 at a time in the Hazel Hotel which can then hold maybe another 300-400 of the new intake. there is no indication from our overlords in Dublin or Berlin if the new intake will even be required to go through the asylum process. either way we can expect 300-400 every 3 months to be taking up accommodation that could be used by needy and technically homeless Irish citizens.

Rhys Essien

foggy_lad wrote: »

The programme refugees are arriving in smaller groups between now and the end of next year so they will account for maybe 100 at a time in the Hazel Hotel which can then hold maybe another 300-400 of the new intake. there is no indication from our overlords in Dublin or Berlin if the new intake will even be required to go through the asylum process. either way we can expect 300-400 every 3 months to be taking up accommodation that could be used by needy and technically homeless Irish citizens.

Germany are giving Syrians automatic asylum.

foggy_lad

Rhys Essien wrote: »

Germany are giving Syrians automatic asylum.

Yes apparently if they chose to apply for asylum it will most likely be granted, I was talking about our own intake of new non program refugees(the 600/1200/180000.....), it has not been stated by anyone in power here if they will have to endure the asylum process and direct provision or if they are going to give them citizenship at the airport.