I want to go faster next year; does anybody mind if I draft?

cjt156

Drafting rules are explained at every race briefing I've been to. I can't believe it's ignorance of the rules. Privateers and first timers aren't the culprits either, in the main.
It's established club members with plenty of experience and knowledge of how the system works - or doesn't, as it happens.

Ultimately it's down to the individual but clubs should be upholding a rule-abiding ethos too, no?

Not that it impacts on me in anyway but I can see how it pi$ses people off who may be in contention.

joey100

Last race I done, Tri an Mhi sprint, it was mentioned in the race booklet with diagrams and explanations and was talked about during the brief. But by the time the brief got to there most people weren't bothering listening and I'm not sure the race official would have been heard over the noise anyway.

In crooked lake at the start of the season I was talking to a first timer who's plan was to sit in behind people on the bike and try save energy, he honestly didn't realise this was against the rules and was very happy when I told him it was and the drafting penalty. I can't remember that race booklet but either he didn't read it or it wasn't mentioned.

One race that stands out in my mind is Kilashee last year, Was up to second on the bike fairly quick and when I got to the turnaround seen one lad sitting right on the back of another. Looked like drafting. When I finished few people watching mentioned he had been drafting, we went out past T2 for about 1km and turned back to it. Static marshalls on the road mentioned to me he had been drafting and a motorbike official reported him for drafting. He got a drafting penalty, then was very close to being DQ for abusing the TI official and then went onto twitter to complain about how he was busted for drafting when he wasn't. Cue lots of people saying that was stupid and he should have been left in the race, that he would never draft. (He passed me for second place on the run, drafting penalty dropped him back to 5th).

He's the only person I've ever seen drafting and getting busted for it. Reward outweighs the risk for most and if you do get caught just give out about it on the internet blaming everyone else.

peter kern

shansey wrote: »

Why have someone on a motorbike if they aren't enforcing it.

Doesn't matter how many bikes or marshalls there are or how many rules.. just enforce the ones we have.

go ahead

tunney

peter kern wrote: »

go ahead

For someone who makes their living from the sport do you give back in terms of volunteer to marshal, police or help at events?

peter kern

hard to turn back 30 years of drafting histroy the way you suggest espcially when itu burried its head in the sand when the problem arose
its a bit like in pro cycling to tell athletes lets all stop using drugs now
it dosnt work that way unfortunately at this stage everybody things that everybody else drafts or takes drugs.
of course i agree with your point of more education
and also with shansey that the marhalls that are out there enforce the rules.
but you would have to invest money and working time into it .

AKW wrote: »

Goes back to the merry go-round again.

If people took responsibility and learned the rules of the sport they are partaking in and followed them then there would be no need to have the added cost of marshals to enforce rules.

I believe the biggest problem is the vast majority of people do not know what the marshal is about or what the rules are in the first place. They see outriders on sportives and the telly and think the bike is for their safety, not for rules.

Let clubs enforce the rules and people will practise them and the problem is solved from the ground up rather than the heavy hammer approach from 'the man'.

shansey

peter kern wrote: »

go ahead

its not about someone volunteering. I pay my membership and race fees and expect the TI officials to do their best. not say "ah break it up there lads" when they come across a bunch of cyclists.

There is a difference between the club members handing out bottles of water (volunteers) and the Motorbike officials.

it can't be that big of an issue to take some numbers.

peter kern

shansey wrote: »

its not about someone volunteering. I pay my membership and race fees and expect the TI officials to do their best. not say "ah break it up there lads" when they come across a bunch of cyclists.

There is a difference between the club members handing out bottles of water (volunteers) and the Motorbike officials.

it can't be that big of an issue to take some numbers.

but somebody has to do it and none of the poepl that complain in this thread has socme forward to do it

talking does not solve the problem if you know what i mean.
actions are needed and since you say its easy you sound like the right person for the job and you will see the abuse you will get

peter kern

tunney wrote: »

For someone who makes their living from the sport do you give back in terms of volunteer to marshal, police or help at events?

i post in this forum and try to cut the bs here
and yes i also have given time to ti
ps i also have given up time to the ironman planning and all i got ws 50 euro form you ;-)

zico10

shansey wrote: »

There is a difference between the club members handing out bottles of water (volunteers) and the Motorbike officials.

The motorcyclists are volunteers as well. Practically all TI officials are. Drafting is not always black and white and penalising someone for drafting is a judgement call these officials have to make. I certainly don't envy someone who has to make this call. It's much easier to volunteer to hand bottles out at the side of the road. Who is going to abuse you for that?

shansey

I assumed the guys with the TI Jerseys got something small for their time.

And don't get me wrong I'm grateful to everyone who volunteers time. Just think theres no point in re-vamping the rules when we could just be firmer with what we have.

maybe I can go undercover in a race next year and bust this drafting ring wide open.

zico10

shansey wrote: »

I assumed the guys with the TI Jerseys got something small for their time.

And don't get me wrong I'm grateful to everyone who volunteers time. Just think theres no point in re-vamping the rules when we could just be firmer with what we have.

maybe I can go undercover in a race next year and bust this drafting ring wide open.

They probably get a fuel allowance, but I'm pretty sure that's all.

I'm 100% in agreement with you though. If the current rules were enforced there would be no need for any harsher penalties, that probably wouldn't be enforced either.

Kurt_Godel

zico10 wrote: »

They probably get a fuel allowance, but I'm pretty sure that's all.

€50 for Sprint/Oly plus travel/accommadation expenses. http://www.triathlonireland.com/motorcycle-officials.html

It's crazy they are even needed though.

I spent the start of this season calling out fellow competitors in trains, and got abused right back. Spent the rest of the season keeping quieter and watching motorbike officials drive right behind a train for a while, then slowly beside it until it broke up, then drive off. The train just reforms again straight away.

(PS @Peter; I pays my money to enter my hobby races and expect the rules to be enforced, and I do very very little volunteering in Tri)

zico10

Kurt_Godel wrote: »

It's crazy they are even needed though.

Why do think this?

tunney

zico10 wrote: »

Why do think this?

In an ideal world people wouldn't cheat.

Kurt_Godel

zico10 wrote: »

Why do think this?

Yeah the problem is people cheating their fellow competitors... essentially they are pulling you back a little each time you have to drop off, so slowing your race. I wouldn't mind so much if they were just cheating themselves (as in cutting corners or taking EPO or whatever), but if you want to race legal, they have a direct effect on your bike time.

The fact that motorbike officials are needed to police amateur races is frankly ludicrous.

zico10

tunney wrote: »

In an ideal world people wouldn't cheat.

A lot if things wouldn't happen in an ideal world, but that's not the world we live in. Name one other sport in the entire world that doesn't have a referee or adjudicator.

zico10

Kurt_Godel wrote: »

The fact that motorbike officials are needed to police amateur races is frankly ludicrous.

It doesn't matter if it's amatuer or not. It's ludicrous to think the sport could function without them.

Kurt_Godel

zico10 wrote: »

It doesn't matter if it's amatuer or not. It's ludicrous to think the sport could function without them.

I considered the amateur caveat. In a professional arena you will always have those motivated to cheat to win for financial gain. AG racing is amateur and those competing are doing so for personal satisfaction. "Fair Play" should rate highly in what amateurs do in sport, and why they do it.

Glad I started this thread, it's reminded me of why I race in the first place and what I want and expect out of the sport.

zico10

Kurt_Godel wrote: »

I considered the amateur caveat. In a professional and amatuerarenas you will always have those motivated to cheat to win for financial gain. AG racing is amateur and those competing are doing so for personal satisfaction. "Fair Play" should rate highly in what amateurs and professionalsdo in sport, and why they do it.

Glad I started this thread, it's reminded me of why I race in the first place and what I want and expect out of the sport.

FYP

You're not dealing with reality if you think everybody is as noble as all us boardsies obviously are.

shansey

Kurt_Godel wrote: »

I considered the amateur caveat. In a professional arena you will always have those motivated to cheat to win for financial gain. AG racing is amateur and those competing are doing so for personal satisfaction. "Fair Play" should rate highly in what amateurs do in sport, and why they do it.

Glad I started this thread, it's reminded me of why I race in the first place and what I want and expect out of the sport.

amateur racing is still racing.. people want to win.. if there was no incentive we would walk the last bit and not run.

When people want to win a small element will cheat.. so we put a man on a motorbike to catch them..

simple really

Kurt_Godel

zico10 wrote: »

FYP

You're not dealing with reality if you think everybody is as noble as all us boardsies obviously are.

Nothing to do with nobility zico. It's a pretty simple rule, easy to follow, difficult to enforce.
What us ludicrous is that race organisers have the added headache of mandatory motorbike officials, just because so many choose to cheat in races where so little beyond personal achievement is at stake.

As an amateur hobbyist the only person who would care if I drafted is myself.

Dory Dory

Gosh, this is how I feel about guns and the need for armies and law enforcement.

MojoMaker

Kurt, if we're really honest with each other, nobody drops back when passed - it's head down & keep the same pace hoping either the other guy continues and pulls clear or he runs out of gas and has to drop back himself. Honestly any other view is just deluding ourselves.

And that's just the innocent non-drafting good guys!

In my limited experience there are no whiter-than-white competitors in triathlon in Ireland, and certainly none among the upper tier of competitors else they wouldn't be in the upper tier and certainly never in the winner's circle. Show me a noble winner and I'll wheel out the Easter Bunny for you.

Looks it's a problem, no doubt about it, but adhering to the rules (in their present form and on the current landscape) is clearly not the solution either because it simply does not play to human nature no matter how black & white you wish to make this topic seem.

When the governing body doesn't take it seriously why should you or I?

zico10

Kurt_Godel wrote: »

As an amateur hobbyist the only person who would care if I drafted is myself.

Well you got worked up enough about other people drafting to start this thread. And judging from this and other threads in the past, I think it would be hard to argue the only person who would care about you drafting is yourself.

To answer the question in your post, if I passed you in a race and I saw you drafting Kurt, I'd think you were a cheating b@st@rd. But I wouldn't get too worked up about it and I'd get over it pretty quickly.

tunney

MojoMaker wrote: »

Kurt, if we're really honest with each other, nobody drops back when passed - it's head down & keep the same pace hoping either the other guy continues and pulls clear or he runs out of gas and has to drop back himself. Honestly any other view is just deluding ourselves.

Not true I always drop back.

MojoMaker wrote: »

In my limited experience there are no whiter-than-white competitors in triathlon in Ireland, and certainly none among the upper tier of competitors else they wouldn't be in the upper tier and certainly never in the winner's circle. Show me a noble winner and I'll wheel out the Easter Bunny for you.

Your morale fibre is impacting your view of others.

I won and placed in my share of races. I didn't cheat, draft, block, get paced or cut the course.

Now go get that bunny.

Kurt_Godel

MojoMaker wrote: »

Kurt, if we're really honest with each other, nobody drops back when passed - it's head down & keep the same pace hoping either the other guy continues and pulls clear or he runs out of gas and has to drop back himself. Honestly any other view is just deluding ourselves.

Rubbish. I have always dropped back when passed. Those times the lad has slowed immediately, I sit up too, and then pass wide. Don't cut any white lines either.

Not trying to be whiter than white, but it's pretty easy to do the right thing.

Kurt_Godel

zico10 wrote: »

To answer the question in your post, if I passed you in a race and I saw you drafting Kurt, I'd think you were a cheating b@st@rd. But I wouldn't get too worked up about it and I'd get over it pretty quickly.

That's the mindset I'm going with from here.

secman

One year whilst doing the hell of the West in Kilkee, I was caught on the bike by the late great Ann Kearney's daughter, might have been Caroline . She went ahead and after a while when I sensed she was slowing up I went wide to overtake, just at that moment a Marshall came on his motorbike and gave me a card for drafting. . I was furious, had to stand with my bike in the air for a minute or so ( it was 25 years ago). Ann was a super athlete, r.i.p
One of her daughters was killed tragically whilst out training on her bike. A very talented family struck by sadness. Anyways I digress, point I am trying to make is that the drafting issue is an old one... and not an easy one to solve.must be more difficult with the large entries now, back then we would have between 150 and 300 max in a race.
Safe training and racing to you all.

sconhome

It was Caroline that was killed whilst training. The memorial race in August each year is a great event.

tunney

secman wrote: »

One year whilst doing the hell of the West in Kilkee, I was caught on the bike by the late great Ann Kearney's daughter, might have been Caroline . She went ahead and after a while when I sensed she was slowing up I went wide to overtake, just at that moment a Marshall came on his motorbike and gave me a card for drafting. . I was furious, had to stand with my bike in the air for a minute or so ( it was 25 years ago). Ann was a super athlete, r.i.p
One of her daughters was killed tragically whilst out training on her bike. A very talented family struck by sadness. Anyways I digress, point I am trying to make is that the drafting issue is an old one... and not an easy one to solve.must be more difficult with the large entries now, back then we would have between 150 and 300 max in a race.
Safe training and racing to you all.

25 years ago Edith and Caroline would have both been very young. Caroline about nine. Maybe a touch of an exaggeration there.

It was Caroline who died in that accident in France. Lovely girl. Suberb swimmer.