I want to go faster next year; does anybody mind if I draft?

zico10

Kurt_Godel wrote: »

That's the mindset I'm going with from here.

Good man, and you'll live longer for it!

secman

tunney wrote: »

25 years ago Edith and Caroline would have both been very young. Caroline about nine. Maybe a touch of an exaggeration there.

It was Caroline who died in that accident in France. Lovely girl. Suberb swimmer.

I'm 58 now... stopped racing due to injuries at about 40 or so. Definitely 18 years ago , most likely 20. I'm sure it was Caroline and Edith s first season doing tri. I'd say it was Edith as no way was I out of water ahead of Caroline , as you say she was a superb swimmer
I raced with Ann for approx 10 years... super athlete too. May they rest in peace.

JohnBee

Is there anyone else who finds the drafting issue difficult in big races?

Have done some sprints with a field of 1000 and 2000 participants. They are wave starts as usual. With a 35-36 min 20km time I find myself "between groups" ie just above mid pack, but not in the fast group. In a big field, even with waves you end up passing a lot of people. But additionally there are a lot of times where I am overtaking but quite slowly. How to manage these situations?

Jakey Rolling

JohnBee wrote: »

Is there anyone else who finds the drafting issue difficult in big races?

Have done some sprints with a field of 1000 and 2000 participants. They are wave starts as usual. With a 35-36 min 20km time I find myself "between groups" ie just above mid pack, but not in the fast group. In a big field, even with waves you end up passing a lot of people. But additionally there are a lot of times where I am overtaking but quite slowly. How to manage these situations?

As long as you are passing through the draft zone in a reasonable time then you are technically not drafting - a dense field of slower paced riders (such as me) is great for any faster riders starting behind them. If you are averaging even 3kph more than those in front, you can gain a draft from each one of them as you weave in and out, probably gaining an extra couple of kph average in the process.

Can't wait to get all aero and try this out at Athy next year!

speedyj

Jakey Rolling wrote: »

As long as you are passing through the draft zone in a reasonable time then you are technically not drafting - a dense field of slower paced riders (such as me) is great for any faster riders starting behind them. If you are averaging even 3kph more than those in front, you can gain a draft from each one of them as you weave in and out, probably gaining an extra couple of kph average in the process.

Can't wait to get all aero and try this out at Athy next year!

Can't say I agree with this - may be sound in theory but in practice is a PITA and reduces the ability to get in the groove and hold a constant effort - imo important in non-drafting triathlon. For example in Kilkee this year I found myself continuusly surging early on to get around groups of riders. Generally you also have to be really vigilant and ready to shout "on your right" well before people move out to overtake others as you're coming up on them. Then there's the situations when the road is blocked and you need a dashed line before overtaking - I'm not into overtaking on solid white line for fear of either being creamed by oncoming traffic or dq'ed :eek:.

Not saying either that it's field/wave sizes that cause this - being a half decent swimmer would avoid this issue in most races.

Podge83

Most competitors want to compete and do their best. Courses should be established with this no. 2 on the priority list (The first being safety). When you enter a race it shouldn’t be an unreasonable expectation to be able to race across the three disciplines regardless of your ability in each individually. It happens all too often that if you’re a bit behind in the swim, the cycle can become a frustrating affair!

The truth is, and it may not be popular, that organising companies and clubs are simply not always making the effort to attack drafting in the presentation of their races. I’m not talking about draft marshals as they are usually there, but why not make the course easier to marshal (or at least try to). OK, so Lough Key (and this was the catalyst for this thread) was dealt a late blow, but the dogs on the street could see that the revised course was unsuitable. And at Lough Key (as posted much earlier by Kurt) there was plenty of drafting, blocking and white line crossing.

Maybe it was a lack foresight (and hindsight is a doddle for us saints on this forum), but the situation there (at Lough Key) could have been improved. Again, it might be hard to face by some as this race was put on by good people from a good club, but the course was unsuitable. 6k (over 25%) of the course was neutral, the turnaround was at the bottom of a steep hill, the rest was an out and back on a very narrow road. Added that the majority hit the road in less than 20 or so minutes simply makes proper racing impossible, and drafting was inevitable. To present this course without trying to make an allowance for it was not good enough – I’m sorry to say this but it wasn’t. OK, they were stuck with the course at small notice, but to compensate there ought to have been 4 waves of 100 at 7-10 minute intervals. This might sound extreme but the problem would have been drastically improved.

The result is that if you were down in the swim you were goosed!!! The cycle becomes a stop start affair where by and large those who abide by the rules can’t perform to their potential and those who don’t do get a better placing. Non cheaters can go home with a clear conscience but the cheaters get a better time (The cheaters clearly don’t have a conscience). – This is wrong. There is an undercurrent in some posts that, you know, they cheated but I’m the better person – that’s a joke when you couldn't race to your potential. It’s supposed to be a race FFS. I know not all race to win and everyone has their own reason, but most want to be able to go as fast as they are capable of on the day.

In other sports (even at amateur level) there are referees and cheaters are expected to be caught. Soccer – you can’t run with the ball in your hand – if you do and the referee doesn’t take action, other players will do plenty of shouting. As Kurt says above he did a bit of shouting previously, was probably made to feel a fool and was abused by others. I know at times I want to shout, but can’t as my plight would be the same.

Give a decent course, give competitors no excuse to draft and increase the penalty. Take The Caroline Kearney Memorial for example, seems that it has become topical in the thread, – no need to cheat. If they do on that course, yes it’s annoying, but it needn’t affect your race. Also cheating there is cheating, it’s easier to spot and the grey areas are reduced. It’s more black and white. A good course also removes the excuses – they were blocking, he/she was going the same speed and we couldn’t be separated, none of this sh1te. On a good course it becomes more black and white.

When we pay an entry (and let’s face it, it isn’t cheap) it’s reasonable to expect a course where time trial racing is possible. This doesn’t always happen and, like it or not, that’s a joke!!

A good course doesn’t solve the problem, but it does make it easier to referee. In that case, yes, blame the marshals for non-application of the rules, and remember they can’t catch everyone, but at least those they don’t catch wont effect your race, only their own.

tunney

Podge83 wrote: »

Most competitors want to compete and do their best. Courses should be established with this no. 2 on the priority list (The first being safety). When you enter a race it shouldn’t be an unreasonable expectation to be able to race across the three disciplines regardless of your ability in each individually. It happens all too often that if you’re a bit behind in the swim, the cycle can become a frustrating affair!

The truth is, and it may not be popular, that organising companies and clubs are simply not always making the effort to attack drafting in the presentation of their races. I’m not talking about draft marshals as they are usually there, but why not make the course easier to marshal (or at least try to). OK, so Lough Key (and this was the catalyst for this thread) was dealt a late blow, but the dogs on the street could see that the revised course was unsuitable. And at Lough Key (as posted much earlier by Kurt) there was plenty of drafting, blocking and white line crossing.

Maybe it was a lack foresight (and hindsight is a doddle for us saints on this forum), but the situation there (at Lough Key) could have been improved. Again, it might be hard to face by some as this race was put on by good people from a good club, but the course was unsuitable. 6k (over 25%) of the course was neutral, the turnaround was at the bottom of a steep hill, the rest was an out and back on a very narrow road. Added that the majority hit the road in less than 20 or so minutes simply makes proper racing impossible, and drafting was inevitable. To present this course without trying to make an allowance for it was not good enough – I’m sorry to say this but it wasn’t. OK, they were stuck with the course at small notice, but to compensate there ought to have been 4 waves of 100 at 7-10 minute intervals. This might sound extreme but the problem would have been drastically improved.

The result is that if you were down in the swim you were goosed!!! The cycle becomes a stop start affair where by and large those who abide by the rules can’t perform to their potential and those who don’t do get a better placing. Non cheaters can go home with a clear conscience but the cheaters get a better time (The cheaters clearly don’t have a conscience). – This is wrong. There is an undercurrent in some posts that, you know, they cheated but I’m the better person – that’s a joke when you couldn't race to your potential. It’s supposed to be a race FFS. I know not all race to win and everyone has their own reason, but most want to be able to go as fast as they are capable of on the day.

In other sports (even at amateur level) there are referees and cheaters are expected to be caught. Soccer – you can’t run with the ball in your hand – if you do and the referee doesn’t take action, other players will do plenty of shouting. As Kurt says above he did a bit of shouting previously, was probably made to feel a fool and was abused by others. I know at times I want to shout, but can’t as my plight would be the same.

Give a decent course, give competitors no excuse to draft and increase the penalty. Take The Caroline Kearney Memorial for example, seems that it has become topical in the thread, – no need to cheat. If they do on that course, yes it’s annoying, but it needn’t affect your race. Also cheating there is cheating, it’s easier to spot and the grey areas are reduced. It’s more black and white. A good course also removes the excuses – they were blocking, he/she was going the same speed and we couldn’t be separated, none of this sh1te. On a good course it becomes more black and white.

When we pay an entry (and let’s face it, it isn’t cheap) it’s reasonable to expect a course where time trial racing is possible. This doesn’t always happen and, like it or not, that’s a joke!!

A good course doesn’t solve the problem, but it does make it easier to referee. In that case, yes, blame the marshals for non-application of the rules, and remember they can’t catch everyone, but at least those they don’t catch wont effect your race, only their own.

A very very long way of saying "I should have dropped back. I'm sorry for cheating"

Podge83

tunney wrote: »

A very very long way of saying "I should have dropped back. I'm sorry for cheating"

You're full of sh1te

tunney

Podge83 wrote: »

You're full of sh1te

no denial here to that.

updated as had not thought needed to be explicit.

Podge83

tunney wrote: »

no denial here to that.

updated as had not thought needed to be explicit.

Good man!!

You're surely the Joe Brolly of Boards. Keep it up!!

Now go and make some other boring thread interesting so I can have a few laughs on this wet day!

I love it!!

tunney

Podge83 wrote: »

Good man!!

You're surely the Joe Brolly of Boards. Keep it up!!

Now go and make some other boring thread interesting so I can have a few laughs on this wet day!

I love it!!

Cool, I'll be Joe Brolly. You be Tiernan McCann.

Podge83

tunney wrote: »

Cool, I'll be Joe Brolly. You be Tiernan McCann.

Can I be diarmuid connolly please?

RJM85

I'm confused. The course doesn't make anyone draft. I'm always behind coming out of the water but its never caused me to draft. Ever.

Podge83

RJM85 wrote: »

I'm confused. The course doesn't make anyone draft. I'm always behind coming out of the water but its never caused me to draft. Ever.

The course doesn't make you draft, but on a bad course the cheaters (blocking, drafting and white line crossing) can find it easier if they want to cheat and it gives them the pseudo excuses, and when the groups are present it will effect your race (if your not cheating) as they hold you up - on a good course they can't (hold you up)!!

JohnBee

Jakey Rolling wrote: »

As long as you are passing through the draft zone in a reasonable time then you are technically not drafting - a dense field of slower paced riders (such as me) is great for any faster riders starting behind them. If you are averaging even 3kph more than those in front, you can gain a draft from each one of them as you weave in and out, probably gaining an extra couple of kph average in the process.

Can't wait to get all aero and try this out at Athy next year!

But still, my point is, in a big field, sometimes if I have 10 people to pass, closely placed, technically it would require quite an additional effort on my part to do so in a reasonable time.

rodneyr1981

On a positive note was out at the blacksod Olympic yesterday which is an out and back bike leg. Didn't see any drafting which was refreshing. Granted not as big a field as some other races but positive all the same.

Podge83

rodneyr1981 wrote: »

On a positive note was out at the blacksod Olympic yesterday which is an out and back bike leg. Didn't see any drafting which was refreshing. Granted not as big a field as some other races but positive all the same.

Me and the rest of the cheaters stayed away!