Russian boots on the ground in Syria. Another Afghanistan?

Shurimgreat

glued wrote: »

The first Russian has died in Syria. His death is being questioned in Russia. Officially he died from hanging himself due to a personal issue with his girlfriend. His family are denying these claims. A lot of Russians died in Ukraine and the Russian government have covered most of these up either by carrying out funerals in secrecy or by threatening anyone attempting to investigate.

It'll be interesting to see what happens in Russia over the next few days. Many Russian soldiers have disappeared in Ukraine and their deaths covered up by Moscow. Many soldiers that died in Ukraine had their records destroyed.

We have the SOHR grossly misstating events in Syria. The Russians lying and covering everything up as usual and the Americans overstating overstating ISIS death tolls (Syria and Iraq).

There is very little hope for the ordinary citizen in Syria when your choice is either to support a bunch of liars or a bunch of liars.

I'd like to see some evidence on your part to back these assertions up. You seem to be trying to imply that Syria is not that bad and its actually fine for the most part. Maybe you feel sohr are exagerating barrel bombs for example? Maybe all the refugees should return home as its all an exaggeration really and syria is actually quite peaceful.

If anything the numbers of dead have been undercounted. There was a report recently not from sohr that 65000 people have disappearred into the Assad prison system never to be heard of again. These are not reported by sohr. Isis also are not in the habit of revealing how many people they kill. And its virtually impossible to retrieve all the bodies from a building demolished in an air raid.

alcaline

Turkey Confirms Strikes Against Kurdish Militias in Syria
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/28/world/europe/turkey-syria-kurdish-militias.html
You could not make it up, the US gives help to the Kurds and the US partner Turkey then Bombs the Kurds.
The only winner here is the arms manufacturers, sell weapons to the US to give to the Kurds and then Bombs to Turkey to destroy the weapons, no wonder the Russians look like the only pros operating in Syria, in the west one hand don't know what the other is doing.

Shurimgreat

The Turks have been ambivalent to isis as they saw them keeping the kurds in check. Interesting to see how this plays out.

Gatling

Shurimgreat wrote: »

The Turks have been ambivalent to isis as they saw them keeping the kurds in check. Interesting to see how this plays out.

And apparently the Kurds have told America that they have no interest in making a push on raqqa isis stronghold,
As it's outside the area they want to make a kurdish state

BoJack Horseman

Gatling wrote: »

And apparently the Kurds have told America that they have no interest in making a push on raqqa isis stronghold,
As it's outside the area they want to make a kurdish state

Only right.

Why on earth would the Kurds expend much men and materiel fighting for a city they have very little connection with.

Elmer Blooker

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Only right.

Why on earth would the Kurds expend much men and materiel fighting for a city they have very little connection with.

True. The Kurds have enough on their hands at the moment considering they are under attack from NATO.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/turkey-opens-new-front-against-kurds-in-syria-1445968338

BoJack Horseman

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

True. The Kurds have enough on their hands at the moment considering they are under attack from NATO.

Because Turkey = All of NATO!

c'mon Elmer.... raise your hate game.

JacquesSon

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

True. The Kurds have enough on their hands at the moment considering they are under attack from NATO.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/turkey-opens-new-front-against-kurds-in-syria-1445968338

Kurds under attack from NATO?

Yay

That's what Turkey has been pushing all along.

glued

Shurimgreat wrote: »

I'd like to see some evidence on your part to back these assertions up. You seem to be trying to imply that Syria is not that bad and its actually fine for the most part. Maybe you feel sohr are exagerating barrel bombs for example? Maybe all the refugees should return home as its all an exaggeration really and syria is actually quite peaceful.

If anything the numbers of dead have been undercounted. There was a report recently not from sohr that 65000 people have disappearred into the Assad prison system never to be heard of again. These are not reported by sohr. Isis also are not in the habit of revealing how many people they kill. And its virtually impossible to retrieve all the bodies from a building demolished in an air raid.

Maybe you should read my post again. I've never once implied that Syria is fine so I don't know where you're getting that from. What a bizarre post.

JacquesSon

Russian troops are on the ground in Syria today.

alcaline

JacquesSon wrote: »

Russian troops are on the ground in Syria today.

Bold statement, where is the proof?

Elmer Blooker

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Because Turkey = All of NATO!

Yes? Isn't that the NATO charter- if one country is at war/under attack then every member is at war war/under attack?

BoJack Horseman

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Yes? Isn't that the NATO charter- if one country is at war then every member is at war war?

Nope.... check your briefing notes!

Elmer Blooker

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Nope.... check your briefing notes!

I don't need any "notes" to tell me that NATO is a posturing meaningless organisation.

Gatling

JacquesSon wrote: »

Russian troops are on the ground in Syria today.

Yeah apparently a battalion is been deployed along with special forces that were fighting in east Ukraine

BoJack Horseman

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

I don't need any "notes" to tell me that NATO is a posturing meaningless organisation.

Yet they are still going..... much to the boss man's chagrin.

BoJack Horseman

Gatling wrote: »

Yeah apparently a battalion is been deployed

Any link?

I assume its special forces?

glued

JacquesSon wrote: »

Russian troops are on the ground in Syria today.

Is it actual Russian soldiers or just the mobs they sent into Ukraine?

I doubt Russia will send in ground troops without a deal with the US in place.

BoJack Horseman

glued wrote: »

I doubt Russia will send in ground troops without a deal with the US in place.

They already have some performing the task of target acquisition and forward air control for the bombers.

Deploying more wouldn't be a huge deal.... especially as I imagine it would be infantry only.

JacquesSon

glued wrote: »

Is it actual Russian soldiers or just the mobs they sent into Ukraine?

I doubt Russia will send in ground troops without a deal with the US in place.

Almost Russians invading almost a place near Athenry.

Thats an invasion of Irish territory that would be a declaration of war!

Gatling

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Any link?

I assume its special forces?

http://uk.businessinsider.com/russia-reportedly-just-sent-its-version-of-delta-force-to-syria-2015-10?r=US&IR=T

http://www.wsj.com/articles/russia-said-to-redeploy-special-ops-forces-from-ukraine-to-syria-1445636834

BoJack Horseman

Gatling wrote: »

http://uk.businessinsider.com/russia-reportedly-just-sent-its-version-of-delta-force-to-syria-2015-10?r=US&IR=T

http://www.wsj.com/articles/russia-said-to-redeploy-special-ops-forces-from-ukraine-to-syria-1445636834

So, these lads must be finally wrapping up their year long "holiday" in Ukraine!

I figured it would be special forces... Russia has the largest number of special forces troops in the world.

Gatling

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

So, these lads must be finally wrapping up their year long "holiday" in Ukraine!

Seems so suppose they needed some training before been sent to Syria

JacquesSon

The Athenry hurling team are a tough set of Irish lads.

JacquesSon

Bulauan Hurlers are the better men.

Cooneys are the lads.

BoJack Horseman

I've a feeling that Jacques account may have been hijacked.

JacquesSon

Kiltulagh might break your face some day.

Lockstep

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Yes? Isn't that the NATO charter- if one country is at war/under attack then every member is at war war/under attack?

That's not how NATO works: it's a collective defense organisation where members agree to mutually respond to attack by an external party. This doesn't mean that all of its members are obliged to fall in behind a member if it decides to go to war.
Case in point: few NATO states took part of W. Bush's Coalition of the Willing. Mainly as the US attacked Iraq, not the other way round. Compare that to the 9/11 attacks when the US invoked NATO's self defense aspect (due to an external attack on a NATO member) and you can see the difference.

IrishTrajan

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

I don't need any "notes" to tell me that NATO is a posturing meaningless organisation.

Then why lie about NATO attacking the Kurds?

IrishTrajan

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

They already have some performing the task of target acquisition and forward air control for the bombers.

Didn't the Kremlin pat themselves on the back for their ingenious tactic of using Syrian civilians to call in air-strikes?

glued

IrishTrajan wrote: »

Didn't the Kremlin pat themselves on the back for their ingenious tactic of using Syrian civilians to call in air-strikes?

I never heard that. Any source?

Surely someone from the Pentagon would have used that to slur Russia in the media.

JacquesSon

Russian boots in Ireland is now more concerning.

riffmongous

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

So, these lads must be finally wrapping up their year long "holiday" in Ukraine!

I figured it would be special forces... Russia has the largest number of special forces troops in the world.

A lot of russian special troops are only designated as 'special purpose', but not what would be considered 'special forces' by a western standard though.

JacquesSon

Irish boots on the ground are multi-purpose.

glued

riffmongous wrote: »

A lot of russian special troops are only designated as 'special purpose', but not what would be considered 'special forces' by a western standard though.

I wouldn't generalise the Russian Special Forces like that. There are many different groups that fall under Special Forces, Alpha Group being the most notorious.

They might not be as well trained as the Navy Seals or SAS but they wouldn't be that far off. I'm not quite sure why you're saying they aren't of a 'Western Standard'.

riffmongous

glued wrote: »

I wouldn't generalise the Russian Special Forces like that. There are many different groups that fall under Special Forces, Alpha Group being the most notorious.

They might not be as well trained as the Navy Seals or SAS but they wouldn't be that far off. I'm not quite sure why you're saying they aren't of a 'Western Standard'.

I didn't say they had no special forces, I was addressing the idea that they have the most special forces in the world which I think comes from the preponderance of speznaz units, but my point was that speznaz does not necessarily mean special forces in the western sense.

There are true special forces like Alfa, Vympel, Zaslon or the 45opsn, but units like the vostok or kadyrovtsky were also called speznaz at times, and they would certainly not fulfil western special forces criteria, they are closer to elite infantry

BoJack Horseman

riffmongous wrote: »

A lot of russian special troops are only designated as 'special purpose', but not what would be considered 'special forces' by a western standard though.

Fair enough.

I had heard recently that Spetsnatz totaled 17,000 troops including support functions.....
But the same interview also mentioned that they take in conscripts every year just like the regular army.
So I guess 'spetsnatz' is a broad enough designation with much variances in quality.

Dannyboy83

Israeli media showing what appears to be some type of impact on the Russian Jet, claimed by ISIS
http://www.timesofisrael.com/islamic-state-in-egypt-claims-it-brought-down-russian-plane/

BoJack Horseman

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Israeli media showing what appears to be some type of impact on the Russian Jet, claimed by ISIS
http://www.timesofisrael.com/islamic-state-in-egypt-claims-it-brought-down-russian-plane/

Video removed from YouTube.

More than likely BS.

There is no MANPAD on earth that could have hit this plane.

The only possibility would be for one of the several kinds of larger AAM in the Egyptian armies inventory to be stolen and used.
The chances of that seem remote.

Dannyboy83

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Video removed from YouTube.

More than likely BS.

There is no MANPAD on earth that could have hit this plane.

The only possibility would be for one of the several kinds of larger AAM in the Egyptian armies inventory to be stolen and used.
The chances of that seem remote.

Claims are now being made that the video is from 2003.

Alt Link:
http://heavy.com/news/2015/10/isis-islamic-state-shooting-down-metrojet-flight-7k9268-russian-plane-flight-9268-full-youtube-video/

BoJack Horseman

Looks a crude effort with the usual sh*tty music like every islamist video.

The explosion looks too bright for the range of the object & most of time surface-to-air missiles explode with a blizzard of small metal balls to shred their target rather than a big firey explosion.

I'm confident its a phony & that mechanical failure was the cause of this tragedy.

Gatling

Looks like the wife of one of the pilots said he had concerns about the state of the aircraft according to News outlets

Shurimgreat

Reports on the news of the plane breaking up/disintegrating in mid air. Not sure what mechanical problem would cause any plane to break up in mid air. Fair enough a manpad mightn't be involved, but possibly some kind of explosion. Would an engine problem cause a plane to break apart mid air?

Hard to know what to believe.

BoJack Horseman

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Would an engine problem cause a plane to break apart mid air?

Catastrophic engine failure could ignite the fuel stored in the wings....

then, that would be that.

Shurimgreat

So much for ISIS being on the run after Russian bombing.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/isis-takes-control-of-strategically-important-syrian-town-near-homs-a6716741.html

As predicted by many people they are actually getting stronger while the other opposition were targeted by the Russians. A completely messed up strategy which will probably make a negotiated solution to the Syrian civil war impossible. At least you could negotiate with the moderate opposition who now are on the verge of being bombed out of extinction. You can't negotiate with ISIS and they seem to have an endless pool of fighters. Probably attracting more recruits too since Russian bombing started.

BoJack Horseman

Shurimgreat wrote: »

So much for ISIS being on the run after Russian bombing.

There is ample evidence by now that Russia has been little more than ISIS close-air support.

Obviously this is not their intent.
But its extremely difficult to execute CAS in coordination with ground troops to take & hold ground, it takes huge skill, sound intel & coordination.

Its not ideal hammering towns with cluster & dumb munitions just for ISIS to sneak in.
The dictatorships ground forces are not coordinating well enough with Russian aviation.

Dannyboy83

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Reports on the news of the plane breaking up/disintegrating in mid air. Not sure what mechanical problem would cause any plane to break up in mid air. Fair enough a manpad mightn't be involved, but possibly some kind of explosion. Would an engine problem cause a plane to break apart mid air?

Hard to know what to believe.

When I heard it broke up in the air, I was reminded of the Lockerbie bombing. A bomb ripped the fuselage apart and the remains were scattered across a wide distance.
The accounts of this I've heard so far seem fairly similar.

The Russian government seem quite insistent this was a technical failure, but the airline involved are very publicly disagreeing...

Terrorism experts said Isil has never claimed an attack it did not carry out.
Mathieu Guidere, professor of Islamic studies at the University of Toulouse, said Isil "is very well established in the Sinai, has infiltrated almost all organisations and infrastructure, so it is quite possible that a fighter sabotaged the plane at the airport before it took off or placed a device on board."

Gatling

Here's the latest on the current situation in syria from RT . With some fantastical claims about what's going on.

https://www.rt.com/op-edge/320356-syria-us-troops-shields/

Shurimgreat

RT are always going to put a positive spin on Russian involvement. Would expect no criticism there.

Some communities around Damascus are also using human shields now. Hard to condone it but understandable I suppose since the bombing targets markets and so on and is aimed at terrorising civilians. The residents need some protection and this may offer it. Would Assad bomb his own clan, I doubt it.

Gatling

Shurimgreat wrote: »

RT are always going to put a positive spin on Russian involvement. Would expect no criticism there.

Some communities around Damascus are also using human shields now. Hard to condone it but understandable I suppose since the bombing targets markets and so on and is aimed at terrorising civilians. The residents need some protection and this may offer it. Would Assad bomb his own clan, I doubt it.

The following quotes say it all


" Russia’s military intervention in Syria was a masterstroke by Putin, wiping out large swathes of the anti-government mercenaries, stabilizing the Assad government, and winning much popular support both within Syria and across the Middle East, and indeed around the world"

"Another indicator of what is really going on are reports this week of the large-scale airlifting of jihadist mercenary groups out of Syria. According to senior Syrian army intelligence, up to 500 mercenaries were flown to Yemen onboard Turkish, Qatari and Emirati planes. The fighters were brought to Yemen’s southern city of Aden from where they were dispatched to battle zones inside Yemen by the American-coordinated Saudi coalition. "

It's funny many people will actually believe what's been reported especially in Russia where it was recently reported that 90% + believe everything as reported by state controlled media .