Russian boots on the ground in Syria. Another Afghanistan?

IrishTrajan

glued wrote: »

The US Military have murdered more innocent civilians than any other countries military in the past 15 years, that should really speak volumes about the priorities of each group.

Are people really trying to say the US are anything else than morally bankrupt? Really? Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo Bay.

The only difference between the US and Russia is that Putin isn't pretending that he's the world's little superhero.

And nobody is absolving them of their crimes in Iraq... But just because the US did something bad, doesn't automatically mean Russia is justified in doing something bad. We call this "whataboutery".

IrishTrajan

cerastes wrote: »

Whats massive civilian losses? and how many is allowed by the US/UK, not that these bombings are being reported in the mainstream media, people might ask questions if they realise how many sorties are being carried out, questions like what the hell are we spending this money for and why is Assad any worse than what might follow? see iraq/libya.

What of the bombs of the Gulf states, were they also using smart bombs?

It seems like ISIS is embedded into areas with civilians, it'd be hard to get at them without hitting civilians, so whats acceptable losses? and to who?

And that is exactly why 75% of US flights don't actually drop bombs. Like I said, they're avoiding risking large civilian casualties.

cerastes wrote: »

Now that Russia has been mentioned, the US/Western bombings are "making sure to avoid killing civilians"
I wonder how many civilians the gulf state airforces killed? or the Jordanians?

You'd have to ask them, but Saudi Arabia alone spends more on defence than Russia does. I'd be guessing that they're using smart bombs, and they're probably the ones killing the civilians in "collateral damage".

Don't get me wrong, I hate the Saudis, but it's farcical for you to claim the US is still killing civilians wantonly when the figures state otherwise.

glued

IrishTrajan wrote: »

And nobody is absolving them of their crimes in Iraq... But just because the US did something bad, doesn't automatically mean Russia is justified in doing something bad. We call this "whataboutery".

You're entirely missing the point. Quite the opposite is happening. Essenitally what some people are saying is: the US have precision bombs so they care about civilians but the Russians don't care because they drop more explosives.

We call this a "strawman's argument".

gandalf

glued wrote: »

You're entirely missing the point. Quite the opposite is happening. Essenitally what some people are saying is: the US have precision bombs so they care about civilians but the Russians don't care because they drop more explosives.

We call this a "strawman's argument".

TBH faulty intelligence negates any positives of using so called "Smart Munitions" if any positives actually exist.

Also if the US had intelligence that Al-Baghdadi was in a compound beside a school I would be sure that they would still "take the shot" despite the bodycount of innocents. I for one am under no illusion of what the US is capable of.

However I don't use it to mask the crimes that Russia has committed or is committing right now in Syria and the Ukraine.

IrishTrajan

glued wrote: »

You're entirely missing the point. Quite the opposite is happening. Essenitally what some people are saying is: the US have precision bombs so they care about civilians but the Russians don't care because they drop more explosives.

We call this a "strawman's argument".

It's not a strawman, it's a simple truth. I'm going to break this down for you as simply as I can.

1. There are two types of bombs: dumb bombs/gravity bombs/free-fall bombs, whatever you want to call them; smart bombs/precision munitions - this includes dumb bombs configured to be smart bombs (e.g. JDAMs)
2. A dumb bomb is something that, once released from the aircraft, can not be guided or controlled. A smart bomb can be guided to some extent, and is significantly more accurate.
3. Dumb bombs generally carry a higher yield of explosives, as they have to destroy an approximate area, smart bombs carry less because they are more efficient and accurate (they don't need to carry large amounts of explosives to take out the target).
4. The US used a plethora of dumb bombs in Iraq during "shock and awe". However, the US and, I presume, most of it's allies - or at least the Western ones - are using precision munitions against ISIS. This has the obvious benefit of decreased risk of civilian deaths - this also goes back to the fact that the majority of US planes come back without having dropped their weapons on targets because of the risk of civilians being caught in the backlash
5. Russia does not have as many of these smart munitions (if they even have any) deployed. They are relying upon dumb bombs, which have higher yields and are significantly less accurate. That is why we're hearing about Russia's callous disregard for civilians whilst the US has shifted away from "shock and awe" and into a more refined precision-strike role.


So, no, it isn't a strawman. It's simply the facts.

Thinkingaboutit

The old Socialist Afghan state survived fairly well until Soviet aid necessarily ended in 1992. There were all those tanks and helicopters, the necessary margin against the mujahideen, but were like proverbial chocolate teapots without fuel supplies. Iran has ground assistance in hand through Hizbollah. Supposedly the Russian high command are hostile to this venture, and if that is true, if obviously, they might find a way to blunt a ground intervention. The divided rebels, even if now they are partially and locally unified in the field with the Army of Conquest (a big target of the Russian strikes) moving towards Latakia, have endured in spite of a largely undivided opponent (Iran brushed aside the Syrian state recently in making a deal over a village with a Shia population, part of a small minority in Syria, and distinct from the Alawites). At the moment, claims aside and who can tell whether Russian speaking fighters are mercs there with possible Russian government sponsorship, Russian ground forces are largely focussed on protecting the ground presence in Latakia of the air units.

Dohnjoe

gandalf wrote: »

Yes it's the usual America is evil ****e that you spouted regarding collateral damage. I don't think anyone has challenged the notion that the US are causing civilian deaths in this conflict or any others in the past but it doesn't obligate Russia from their responsibility in the civilians deaths they are causing with their current actions, actions that are quite clearly not against ISIS but against the factions that are pressing the regime of Assad in Syria.

In reality you should read back over what you posted because you sound like an awful lot of the Pro-Russian apologists who permeated any thread about the Ukraine both here in Politics and After Hours with exactly the same "but the US did bad things line of thought" to deflect from the fact that Russia is behaving in exactly the same way.

Just because people are pointing out that Russia is doing wrong doesn't automatically mean they are saying the US is right. :rolleyes:

Always pervades these types of threads, it's tribalism.

"I must criticise country X at every opportunity and defend country X's enemies"

Captain Chaos

If the US didn't care about hitting civilians they wouldn't bother to use smart bombs. They would just drop tons of dumb bombs instead as they are alot cheaper to manufacture and use.

Russians aren't using them partly due to lack of investment in smart weapons that Western nations have invested over the past 25 years. Very few of their airforce are actually equipped to deploy and use such weapons also due to lack of investment.

Chemical Byrne

I think it's the advent of social media that has prompted the US to use precision munitions. They had PM in development and some operational during the 70's. Didn't stop them from raining tens of thousands of B52 loads of dumb bombs all over Cambodia.

glued

gandalf wrote: »

TBH faulty intelligence negates any positives of using so called "Smart Munitions" if any positives actually exist.

Also if the US had intelligence that Al-Baghdadi was in a compound beside a school I would be sure that they would still "take the shot" despite the bodycount of innocents. I for one am under no illusion of what the US is capable of.

However I don't use it to mask the crimes that Russia has committed or is committing right now in Syria and the Ukraine.

I'm not trying to mask any of Russia's crimes. The US are as bad as Russia but the Russians will always be the bad guys. As soon as Russia kills a civilian it's all over the news but when US Marines start shooting civilians on a highway in Iraq it's barely reported.

Russia is exactly the same as the US. The only difference is that the Russians know what they want and they know how to get it.

cerastes

Gatling wrote: »

Where are the most credible figures from

6,700 US airstrikes alone on isis targets it's safe to say your looking at 2-3 dead minimum dead per strike

Id say its fairly safe to say TOW misisle launchers were provided to Syrian opposition groups, from the US directly or more likely indirectly via Gulf States and statelets, as I cant find anything to prove this, which isnt likely unless I can find a receipt online or go there, find and count them which is even less likely, I simply couldnt come back here and press it home, I can still see pictures of TOW launchers being used (who knows where they get their missles from once they are used, now I dont believe anyone else could really provide them as they have never been and are still not part of Iraqi equipment,
I believe the Iranians have made unlicensed copies but I dont think they are supplying ISIS, it seems obvious someone is supplying them and resupplying the expendable component, but proving it, bit more difficult so if I have to submit accurate facts, then I think you also should have to,

Safe to say doesnt cut it, when you come back from your trip counting corpses, let us know, till then, you dont know.

gandalf wrote: »

Yes it's the usual America is evil ****e that you spouted regarding collateral damage. I don't think anyone has challenged the notion that the US are causing civilian deaths in this conflict or any others in the past but it doesn't obligate Russia from their responsibility in the civilians deaths they are causing with their current actions, actions that are quite clearly not against ISIS but against the factions that are pressing the regime of Assad in Syria.

In reality you should read back over what you posted because you sound like an awful lot of the Pro-Russian apologists who permeated any thread about the Ukraine both here in Politics and After Hours with exactly the same "but the US did bad things line of thought" to deflect from the fact that Russia is behaving in exactly the same way.

Just because people are pointing out that Russia is doing wrong doesn't automatically mean they are saying the US is right. :rolleyes:

Its not really about US bad Russia good, but the hypocrisy, the US cant criticise Russia, the US has done as bad if not worse, the point is the US is not on good grounds to criticise anyone.

IrishTrajan wrote: »

And that is exactly why 75% of US flights don't actually drop bombs. Like I said, they're avoiding risking large civilian casualties.

You'd have to ask them, but Saudi Arabia alone spends more on defence than Russia does. I'd be guessing that they're using smart bombs, and they're probably the ones killing the civilians in "collateral damage".

Don't get me wrong, I hate the Saudis, but it's farcical for you to claim the US is still killing civilians wantonly when the figures state otherwise.

So its ok if a proxy commits something? avoiding doesnt tell us anything, trying to avoid killing civilians becuase you drop a smart bomb makes little difference, Im not disputing smart munitions are accurate, but I think its a little overstated to say they are smart, more that they are accurate, when they drop a bomb, its away, it cant discern between terrorist people and innocent people, and it isnt easy to discern that from altitude when they all wear tea towels on their heads you know? when bombs explode they kill/destroy everything they are capable of within their designed parameters
.
It might be farcical if I claimed the US was wantonly killing civilians, but I didnt claim they are wantonly killing civilians, in fact I actually asked for proof from another poster to verify as many people had been killed as stated and how many of those are ISIS members?

My opinion on the matter is, it doesnt matter to the innocent civilian getting a bomb dropped on their head how accurate it is or isnt, the US and Russia are dropping bombs, the US arent in a position to complain when someone else does it too.

Dohnjoe

glued wrote: »

I'm not trying to mask any of Russia's crimes. The US are as bad as Russia but the Russians will always be the bad guys. As soon as Russia kills a civilian it's all over the news but when US Marines start shooting civilians on a highway in Iraq it's barely reported.

The Haditha shootings featured heavily in the news. The Blackwater/XE was reported on, during and long after the event. Abu Ghraib was wall to wall.

As both nations go, the US has been more involved in international conflicts

Russia has just entered the Syrian conflict militarily, ergo it's being reported. Why? because its newsworthy, why? because it's a very significant event, outside of regional conflicts, Russia has had little presence on the world stage since the end of the Cold War

If China entered the conflict I am sure you can imagine the response

France started bombing IS the other day, it was newsworthy, but not nearly so much as an ex superpower that is currently highly at odds with the US (and many countries)

If Russia bombs for 6 months without any major incidents or developments it will fade like everything else

cerastes

gandalf wrote: »

TBH faulty intelligence negates any positives of using so called "Smart Munitions" if any positives actually exist.

Also if the US had intelligence that Al-Baghdadi was in a compound beside a school I would be sure that they would still "take the shot" despite the bodycount of innocents. I for one am under no illusion of what the US is capable of.

However I don't use it to mask the crimes that Russia has committed or is committing right now in Syria and the Ukraine.

So if Russia is committing crimes dropping bombs and the US and its allies are doing the same, then you agree any nation that drops a single bomb that has killed a civilian must be committing crimes? its essential a weapon of war, and it cant be discerned if its being dropped on civilians or not, so are these war crimes?

Dohnjoe wrote: »

The Haditha shootings featured heavily in the news. The Blackwater/XE was reported on, during and long after the event. Abu Ghraib was wall to wall.

As both nations go, the US has been more involved in international conflicts

Russia has just entered the Syrian conflict militarily, ergo it's being reported. Why? because its newsworthy, why? because it's a very significant event, outside of regional conflicts, Russia has had little presence on the world stage since the end of the Cold War

If China entered the conflict I am sure you can imagine the response

France started bombing IS the other day, it was newsworthy, but not nearly so much as an ex superpower that is currently highly at odds with the US (and many countries)

If Russia bombs for 6 months without any major incidents or developments it will fade like everything else

I think its significant that the extent of the western backed bombing has hardly been reported in the mainstream media.
Russia has seems to try to get some agreement with the US on what they are doing so Id say its the US who are at odds with Russia entering the fray as it being the way you stated, neither side comes out looking rosy, but its proposed the US is somehow better becuase of smart weapons?

jank

Can we leave the 'USA are evil' rant out of it please?

gandalf

cerastes wrote: »

So if Russia is committing crimes dropping bombs and the US and its allies are doing the same, then you agree any nation that drops a single bomb that has killed a civilian must be committing crimes? its essential a weapon of war, and it cant be discerned if its being dropped on civilians or not, so are these war crimes?

In a lot of cases yes they could constitute war crimes. Would they be prosecuted probably not. There should be prosecutions for the 2nd Gulf War because it was instigated based on a lie. Just like there should be prosecutions brought against the Russians for what happened in the Ukraine in recent times.

I think its significant that the extent of the western backed bombing has hardly been reported in the mainstream media.
Russia has seems to try to get some agreement with the US on what they are doing so Id say its the US who are at odds with Russia entering the fray as it being the way you stated, neither side comes out looking rosy, but its proposed the US is somehow better becuase of smart weapons?

You are having an absolute laugh aren't you. There has been plenty of coverage of civilian deaths due to air strikes. I think every couple of days there is a report about civilians dying in Iraq, Afghanistan or Syria because of a wayward airstrike.

Smart Weapons as described can lower the numbers of civilians killed but they aren't a guarantee that none will be killed and they are only as good as the intelligence guiding them. How many wedding parties in Afghanistan have been mistaken for Taliban gatherings for example.

What concerns me is the Russians are being directed by the Syrian Army an organisation that uses air power directly against civilians in an indiscriminate fashion with crude weapons like Barrel Bombs which are about as far removed from a Smart Weapon as possible.

Elmer Blooker

gandalf wrote: »

What concerns me is the Russians are being directed by the Syrian Army an organisation that uses air power directly against civilians in an indiscriminate fashion with crude weapons like Barrel Bombs which are about as far removed from a Smart Weapon as possible.

What exactly is a "smart" weapon?
Is it a big big bomb used by the good guys to kill the bad guys? Just like the movies, eh?
Look up Amiriyah shelter if you can be bothered.

gandalf

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

What exactly is a "smart" weapon?
Is it a big big bomb used by the good guys to kill the bad guys? Just like the movies, eh?
Look up Amiriyah shelter if you can be bothered.

Elmer here's a link, educate yourself.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precision-guided_munition

And if you actually bothered to read what I said instead of going straight into /Putin_defense mode you'd see I said that a smart bomb is only as good as the intelligence used to direct it. If the intelligence is faulty then massacres like the Deh Bala wedding party or Amiriyah shelter will always happen.

I suppose you'll be eulogising the Russians because at least their honest and don't use Smart munitions to massacre civilians next :rolleyes:

Gatling

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

What exactly is a "smart" weapon?.

It's a bomb capable of of hitting it's target to with 4m that uses a mix of GPS and other clever electronics to steer it's self onto a target

Really clever stuff actually.

glued

jank wrote: »

Can we leave the 'USA are evil' rant out of it please?

I don't think the US are evil. That would be an extreme view. There is huge internal pressure in the US over Syria. No matter what Obama does he will be critiqued heavily for his actions in the Middle East. On one hand he's promised to remove most US troops out of the Middle East and on the other he's facing internal pressure to resolve the problems in Syria.

If he commits ground troops he'll be blasted by the Republicans, if he pulls out or let's Russia keep bombing CIA Allies then he'll be blamed for being weak. That's why Putin is in a much stronger position and can essentially do what he wants with little internal pressure.

It'll be interesting to see what Obama does next. Essentially the Russians are sabotaging thr US's strategy as they're destroying their allied forces. The only losers will be the Syrian people as the US and Russia play out politics in the region.

Putin is too stubborn to allow the US to defeat Assad and the US can't allow Putin to bomb their allies. I'd also imagine Putin not bombing ISIS is merely a bargaining chip for them. I can't see any circumstances where Putin will allow Assad to go and I can't see the US allowing Assad to stay in power.

If the Iranians actually commit ground troops to defeat the rebels then there is no chance that Syria keeps its current borders. This war is nothing but a complete mess.

The only person you can blame is Assad but Saudi Arabia has a lot of blood on their hands and the sooner their influence is diminished in the region the better. Nothing but a bunch of extremist nuts.

323

Russian boots on the ground in Syria. Another Afghanistan? Hardly, no one seems to want to mention that Russia has been invited there but the Government
of that country. OK, the US and others dont like the boss there and want to topple that Government. They been doing that for a few decades now,
none have worked out very well, Iran, Iraq, Libya. Only winner has been the US military–industrial complex... they being the folks supplying ISIS
initially too.

Scary part is how almost all the media is on board with this new information war against Russia.

Russian forces in Syria, lightning fast reports of "innocent civilian deaths". US forces dropping bombs there, occasional mention of “collateral damage”.

Think this article today Insult to our intelligence: New information war against Russia by journalist Neil Clark is spot on where he says

"....the accusations and allegations that we’ve seen were already written up – filed and saved – and ready to be posted online as soon as Russia’s parliament authorized the use of military force in Syria, in order to discredit the operation."

gandalf

323 wrote: »

Russian boots on the ground in Syria. Another Afghanistan? Hardly, no one seems to want to mention that Russia has been invited there but the Government
of that country. OK, the US and others dont like the boss there and want to topple that Government. They been doing that for a few decades now,
none have worked out very well, Iran, Iraq, Libya. Only winner has been the US military–industrial complex... they being the folks supplying ISIS
initially too.

Scary part is how almost all the media is on board with this new information war against Russia.

Russian forces in Syria, lightning fast reports of "innocent civilian deaths". US forces dropping bombs there, occasional mention of “collateral damage”.

Think this article today Insult to our intelligence: New information war against Russia by journalist Neil Clark is spot on where he says

"....the accusations and allegations that we’ve seen were already written up – filed and saved – and ready to be posted online as soon as Russia’s parliament authorized the use of military force in Syria, in order to discredit the operation."

A Russia Today article being quoted as objective. The station is funded by the Russian State. Assad has been killing his people with glee and now the Russians are there to escalate that killing.

As for Russia itself. It's my firm belief that the current Russian Regime is a far bigger threat our stability here in Europe than the US ever was or is.

Here's an alternative view for you maybe the majority of media outlets have come to same conclusion that Russia is a threat that now needs to be watched closely.

IrishTrajan

323 wrote: »

Russian boots on the ground in Syria. Another Afghanistan? Hardly, no one seems to want to mention that Russia has been invited there but the Government
of that country. OK, the US and others dont like the boss there and want to topple that Government. They been doing that for a few decades now,
none have worked out very well, Iran, Iraq, Libya. Only winner has been the US military–industrial complex... they being the folks supplying ISIS
initially too.

Just a pedantic point on my part, but they were invited into Afghanistan as well.

Elmer Blooker

gandalf wrote: »

Elmer here's a link, educate yourself.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precision-guided_munition

And if you actually bothered to read what I said instead of going straight into /Putin_defense mode you'd see I said that a smart bomb is only as good as the intelligence used to direct it. If the intelligence is faulty then massacres like the Deh Bala wedding party or Amiriyah shelter will always happen.

I suppose you'll be eulogising the Russians because at least their honest and don't use Smart munitions to massacre civilians next :rolleyes:

Yes faulty intelligence. Innocent civilians sheltering from terrorist air raids in the wrong place at the wrong time, their own fault of course.
So, since Russia has got involved you lot have turned into Jihad Johns and now ISIS are the good guys (Bojack even compared them to girl scouts yesterday) We won't be hearing any more reports of beheadings, burnings alive, throwing gays to their deaths from roof tops, and the Yazidis, anyone remember them? .. the systematic rape and selling of women etc
Remember this? http://news.yahoo.com/executes-10-people-accused-being-gay-syria-monitor-204159542.html
What Putin defenCe mode in my post?

glued

323 wrote: »

Russian boots on the ground in Syria. Another Afghanistan? Hardly, no one seems to want to mention that Russia has been invited there but the Government
of that country. OK, the US and others dont like the boss there and want to topple that Government. They been doing that for a few decades now,
none have worked out very well, Iran, Iraq, Libya. Only winner has been the US military–industrial complex... they being the folks supplying ISIS
initially too.

Scary part is how almost all the media is on board with this new information war against Russia.

Russian forces in Syria, lightning fast reports of "innocent civilian deaths". US forces dropping bombs there, occasional mention of “collateral damage”.

Think this article today Insult to our intelligence: New information war against Russia by journalist Neil Clark is spot on where he says

"....the accusations and allegations that we’ve seen were already written up – filed and saved – and ready to be posted online as soon as Russia’s parliament authorized the use of military force in Syria, in order to discredit the operation."

I think, under the current situation, Russia being invited by Assad is very much a moot point. The coalition forces could probably argue that they're acting in self defence.

It's very different situation to Afghanistan. There is no obvious objective for anyone here bar Assad and the Rebel forces who both just want to wipe each other out and control the country. The US and Russia are merely getting involved to protect their own interests and neither will back down. Especially Russia who now have a military outpost in Latakia along with Tartus. The Latakia base also provides Russia with intelligence.

The Russians are probably looking to keep Assad in power in order to upgrade both facilities and keep and ally in the region, while also ramping up the pressure on the Sunni Extremists and the US.

gandalf

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Yes faulty intelligence. Innocent civilians sheltering from terrorist air raids in the wrong place at the wrong time, their own fault of course.
So, since Russia has got involved you lot have turned into Jihad Johns and now ISIS are the good guys (Bojack even compared them to girl scouts yesterday) We won't be hearing any more reports of beheadings, burnings alive, throwing gays to their deaths from roof tops, and the Yazidis, anyone remember them? .. the systematic rape and selling of women etc
Remember this? http://news.yahoo.com/executes-10-people-accused-being-gay-syria-monitor-204159542.html
What Putin defenCe mode in my post?

"You lot" wtf do you mean "you lot" this is precisely your problem. Someone criticises Russia and immediately you jump into your "them and us" mode. That is your Putin_defense mode. It's tiresome at this stage. If we speak up against Russia then in your warped worldview we are justifying and supporting what the US are doing. I certainly don't and I would hazard quite a number of the others posting don't either. We're adults we can distinguish between right and wrong and if the US and Russia are in the wrong we will say it.

Will the fact that Russia is involved now change the fact that ISIS, ISIL, Daesh or whatever they call themselves today are evil ****ers, No.

Count Dooku

gandalf wrote: »

Elmer here's a link, educate yourself.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precision-guided_munition

And if you actually bothered to read what I said instead of going straight into /Putin_defense mode you'd see I said that a smart bomb is only as good as the intelligence used to direct it. If the intelligence is faulty then massacres like the Deh Bala wedding party or Amiriyah shelter will always happen.

I suppose you'll be eulogising the Russians because at least their honest and don't use Smart munitions to massacre civilians next :rolleyes:

How do you know that Russians are not using smart weapons there?

gandalf

Count Dooku wrote: »

How do you know that Russians are not using smart weapons there?

I didn't say Russia weren't. But whatever munitions they are using it is obvious from reports on the ground that the majority are being used against organisations other than ISIL.

IrishTrajan

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

So, since Russia has got involved you lot have turned into Jihad Johns

I'm glad that the Russians are getting involved, but their use of dumb bombs and, more importantly, your defending of it is atrociously stupid.

glued

So the Russians have confirmed with evidence that they have attacked ISIS but most of their targets were Army of Conquest training camps who have been making a lot of progress since they consolidated. They have endless money and support from Saudi Arabia and Qatar so the sooner they're destroyed the better.

I would have no problem seeing the likes of ISIS, Al-Nusra and the Army of Conquest bombed back to the stone age. If there is anything the Americans and Russians can agree on its that these three factions have to be destroyed. If they can worry about Assad later both the US and Russians could destroy these groups together in a matter of weeks.

Count Dooku

gandalf wrote: »

I didn't say Russia weren't. But whatever munitions they are using it is obvious from reports on the ground that the majority are being used against organisations other than ISIL.

Of course, ISIL and Al Qaeda now will present themselves as moderate opposition
Two weeks ago seven gays been executed by ISIS in Rastan, and now Western MSM say that Rastan is under control of moderate opposition

gandalf

Count Dooku wrote: »

Of course, ISIL and Al Qaeda now will present themselves as moderate opposition
Two weeks ago seven gays been executed by ISIS in Rastan, and now Western MSM say that Rastan is under control of moderate opposition

I was talking about the Free Syrian Army who have said they have been targeted by the Russian Air Force.

IrishTrajan

Iran and Turkey had recently negotiated a quasi-ceasefire, assuming the SAA stopped dropping barrel bombs on rebel encampments. If the Russians have carried out bombings on behalf of the Syrian Government, is this a breach of their ceasefire agreement?

Elmer Blooker

IrishTrajan wrote: »

I'm glad that the Russians are getting involved, but their use of dumb bombs and, more importantly, your defending of it is atrociously stupid.

Anyone (Gandalf) who sees nothing wrong with the bombing of an air raid shelter (where else would civilians go in an air raid?) isn't worth arguing with.

Will the fact that Russia is involved now change the fact that ISIS, ISIL, Daesh or whatever they call themselves today are evil ****ers, No.

They seem to have all turned into "moderates" almost overnight.

IrishTrajan

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Anyone who sees nothing wrong with the bombing of an air raid shelter (where else would civilians go in an air raid?) isn't worth arguing with.

Where did you pull that from?

gandalf

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

They seem to have all turned into "moderates" almost overnight.

Is that the new mandated Putin groupthink position ?

Chemical Byrne

In this war it is pretty convenient and easy for the western media to issue cries of civilian causalties because most the the combatants are ununiformed.

For instance, if a group of rebels/freedom fighters/terrorists are killed their comrades will more than likely scavenge any weapons and ammunition from the corpses. To anyone coming along after, the bodies dress in regular clothes will look like civilans have been killed. The western media know this and capitalise on it to villify Russia and the SAA.

Peist2007

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

The moral bankruptcy of our mainstream media is astonishing - it's suddenly developed a deep concern about the accuracy, identification of bad guys, and civilian casualties when the Russians carry out 8 air strikes (US/Coalition have launched over 2,500+).

I cannot remember a week on television where we have been exposed to such propaganda. Its there all of the time, obviously, but has been extremely blatant and stark this week. A pure sign that the Russians have gained the upper hand.

Peist2007

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Chechnya, Beslan, the Moscow theater hostage situation, Georgia,...

Collateral damage is acceptable to them and they have time and time again proven that they have no problems firing on places where civilians are located.

The only other option would be that they are grossly incompetent, I'm not sure which is the worse.

You're missing his point. He didnt say the Russians were not causing damage. He is pointing out the utter hyprocrisy of the west decrying it, when the West has been doing it non-stop in the middle east since 2003.

Streetwalker

The propaganda this last 48hrs is unlike anything I've seen or heard since the weapons of mass destruction scam as a pretence for war in Iraq. It's coming over very amateurish from all the main networks.

IrishTrajan

Peist2007 wrote: »

I cannot remember a week on television where we have been exposed to such propaganda. Its there all of the time, obviously, but has been extremely blatant and stark this week. A pure sign that the Russians have gained the upper hand.

You should check Sputnik News or RT more often then. If you think the West's media is bad for propaganda, you should see theirs.

Gatling

Count Dooku wrote: »

How do you know that Russians are not using smart weapons there?

Can you confirm that image is actually taken in syria at all

Peist2007

Count Dooku wrote: »

Of course, ISIL and Al Qaeda now will present themselves as moderate opposition
Two weeks ago seven gays been executed by ISIS in Rastan, and now Western MSM say that Rastan is under control of moderate opposition

Yup on 22nd Sept there were executions carried out by ISIS in Homs and reported in the media. Yesterday the Russians bomb HOMs and we are told there is no ISIS there etc.

The whole thing, from both sides, is drenched in propaganda. Its frustrating to see people just swallowing this utter sh1te, even more so when its people who claim to be informed.

K-9

Mod:

OK, if somebody posts that another user supports or is fine with bombs and deaths, quote them, or expect to be banned from the thread.

This putting words in people's mouths because of what side they are on, I don't care what "side", stops now.

Peist2007

Streetwalker wrote: »

The propaganda this last 48hrs is unlike anything I've seen or heard since the weapons of mass destruction scam as a pretence for war in Iraq. It's coming over very amateurish from all the main networks.

It's almost like they dont actually give a crap anymore. There is nothing subtle about it. The American press conference yesterday in which they were condemning "indiscriminate bombing" was a personal jaw hit the floor moment.

Jelle1880

glued wrote: »

And collateral damage isn't acceptable to the US? Tell that to the tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis and Afghan civilians who were killed by the United States through bombings, murder, poor CIA Intel etc.

Hiroshima, Nagasaki, My Lai Massacre etc.

The United States has the blood on it's hands of millions of innocent people.

It's hard to believe that there are still people who are quite dim enough to buy into the old cold war narrative.

Nobody here is saying the US never killed innocents or has been indiscriminate in bombing, but in this fight there is nothing to indicate that.

There's no use in talking about incidents from decades ago, we could throw names of wars around for ages.

Peist2007

IrishTrajan wrote: »

You should check Sputnik News or RT more often then. If you think the West's media is bad for propaganda, you should see theirs.

I know what RT is like alright. But the propaganda we are being exposed to now is extremely full on. And all from an "unbiased media" :pac:

Count Dooku

gandalf wrote: »

Is that the new mandated Putin groupthink position ?

I guess that smear campaign against Russia will consist the following
1) Hundreds of children killed
2) Thousands of Russian soldiers lost
3) Hundreds of Russian planes lost
This is what Western MSM will tell us for next few months

Peist2007

gandalf wrote: »

Is that the new mandated Putin groupthink position ?

Nope. That's what we are being told on the news. Utterly indefensible.

Gatling

Count Dooku wrote: »

I guess that smear campaign against Russia will consist the following
1) Hundreds of children killed
2) Thousands of Russian soldiers lost
3) Hundreds of Russian planes lost
This is what Western MSM will tell us for next few months

Are the rate of deaths 30+ in 2 nights if that average keeps for the next 4 months according to russia may carry out airstrikes that will leave hundreds dead civilians wise .

30 Russian planes currently in syria (we won't see hundreds lost )

Russian soldier killed we won't ever find out all military deaths are now top secret thanks to new Russian law's.

So it's all entirely possible remember what happened in Afghanistan they lost thousands of men there and hundreds of aircraft

Peist2007

Gatling wrote: »

Are the rate of deaths 30+ in 2 nights if that average keeps for the next 4 months according to russia may carry out airstrikes that will leave hundreds dead civilians wise .

30 Russian planes currently in syria (we won't see hundreds lost )

Russian soldier killed we won't ever find out all military deaths are now top secret thanks to new Russian law's.

So it's all entirely possible remember what happened in Afghanistan they lost thousands of men there and hundreds of aircraft

Lol. So even if there are no reports it will be due to the pesky Russians hiding the real figures. Such a schoolyard argument and entirely predictable. Go watch Fox News or something and take a break.