Russian boots on the ground in Syria. Another Afghanistan?

gobsh!te

Gatling wrote: »

All the while forgetting all about the own brand of Putin says be

What in the report did you disagree with?

IrishTrajan

Eugene Norman wrote: »

It's about time Europe divorced itself from the US-Zionist embrace and joined forces with China/Russia.

Yeah, let's give up friendship with the world superpower for an antiquated oil-producer and a country who is hated by most of their neighbours. Don't be stupid.

Eugene Norman wrote: »

No it's precision strikes. Irishtrajan heard that in sky so it must be true.

You are aware Syria and Afghanistan are two different countries, yes?

Gatling

Various media outlets are reporting the the Kremlin is planning to send 150,000 conscripts to fight Isis in syria.
All this effort for one port and 2 airfields

IrishTrajan

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

That's a ridiculous counter-factual assessment.

The US' economic position is quite strong and it will grow stronger. China is trying to lodge itself into the world economy as integral part. The US, however, has insulated its economy from external shocks. Of the major world powers, the US has the best demographic base for future economic expansion.

China is making significant moves, and so is Russia, but the US is becoming (or is) self-sufficient in energy production. The Canadians are falling over themselves trying to keep the Americans interested in their oil.

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

The US is running around making 'friends' with its sworn enemies Iran and Cuba because it knows it will have no choice but to 'lose' them in the future.

The Indians, Chinese and other non-aligned countries dwarf 'The West' when it comes to population size and potential growth and development opportunities - that's probably why the US's most reliable allies jumped on board the AIIB despite Washington's opposition to to it.

The potential is all good and well, but it's very unlikely they will actually overtake the US. India has a huge problem with its caste system, and China has demographics incredibly heavily skewed.

It's all good and well having a billion people who have the potential to be rich, but that isn't comparable to actually having 350 million "rich" (by world standards) people.

The countries involved in the move to the AIIB did so out of personal gain. Britain is trying to become the world financial hub for the Chinese currency if it is accepted as a world reserve currency. Germany is already a significant exporter to China, and Britain is playing catch up.

To turn your example a different way: Britain is pulling away from the European Union, does this mean the European Union is becoming irrelevant? I wouldn't argue that. In fact, I'd argue the European Union is more relevant on the world stage than China is, even with crippled growth rates and huge unemployment.

smurgen

IrishTrajan wrote: »

Yeah, let's give up friendship with the world superpower for an antiquated oil-producer and a country who is hated by most of their neighbours. Don't be stupid.



You are aware Syria and Afghanistan are two different countries, yes?

What does it matter?are they using dumb bombs in Afghanistan or something?

smurgen

Gatling wrote: »

Various media outlets are reporting the the Kremlin is planning to send 150,000 conscripts to fight Isis in syria.
All this effort for one port and 2 airfields

Russia is flexing it's muscle.it's showing the U.S that it's still a global power.the fact is it can do what it wants and no one can stop them.the sooner the west interacts with Russia and treats it with respect the better.it's all well and good mocking them but they have enough fire power to turn the world to ash a few times over and alot less to lose than western nations. The U.S is arrogant in thinking it can do what it wants on the world stage without someone countering it.

Count Dooku

Gatling wrote: »

Various media outlets are reporting the the Kremlin is planning to send 150,000 conscripts to fight Isis in syria.
All this effort for one port and 2 airfields

Western media learned this lesson from their main teacher
"The bigger the lie, the more it will be believed."

smurgen

Count Dooku wrote: »

Western media learned this lesson from their main teacher
"The bigger the lie, the more it will be believed."

After seeing how much the WMD angle was peddled by fox and sky in the build up to the 2003 Iraq invasion it's a wonder how anyone takes them seriously anymore.they had satellite pictures of so called mobile chemical labs and missile silos that could be launched in 15 minutes and presented all of this to the western citizens to make them as terrified as possible.they presented the evidence with such certainty that anyone disagreeing with it would have been branded a lunatic or conspiracy theorist.

Gatling

Count Dooku wrote: »

Western media learned this lesson from their main teacher
"The bigger the lie, the more it will be believed."

A lot like Kremlin peddled propaganda like Russian bs about Kiev etnicly cleansing East Ukraine .

IrishTrajan

smurgen wrote: »

What does it matter?are they using dumb bombs in Afghanistan or something?

It was probably a failure of intelligence. We won't know until they launch their inquiry.

Skylinehead

IrishTrajan wrote: »

It was probably a failure of intelligence. We won't know until they launch their inquiry.

They had plenty of intelligence from MSF telling them exactly where the hospital was.

Gatling

IrishTrajan wrote: »

It was probably a failure of intelligence. We won't know until they launch their inquiry.

It wasn't a bomb Strike in the usual sense definitely wasn't a smart bomb Strike,
highly likely it was hit with 105mm artillery or close to the hospital that triggered a fire and explosion in an oxygen rich environment

Wanderer78

another cluster f*ck. between them all, they ll bomb the place to bits until there will be nothing left. idiots all of them

Skylinehead

Gatling wrote: »

It wasn't a bomb Strike in the usual sense definitely wasn't a smart bomb Strike,
highly likely it was hit with 105mm artillery or close to the hospital that triggered a fire and explosion in an oxygen rich environment

Source for all this?

gobsh!te

Great work by RT.

Please the people that say it is all propaganda....Can you please provide a Western media equivalent.

Bullsh!t claims destroyed in 99 second

Peist2007

Gatling wrote: »

It wasn't a bomb Strike in the usual sense definitely wasn't a smart bomb Strike,
highly likely it was hit with 105mm artillery or close to the hospital that triggered a fire and explosion in an oxygen rich environment

You havent a clue and your attempts to gloss saturday's indiscriminate bombing of a hospital is utterly disgraceful. Shame on you.

Elmer Blooker

gobsh!te wrote: »

Great work by RT.

Please the people that say it is all propaganda....Can you please provide a Western media equivalent.

Interesting that you should mention something from the western media on the Syrian conflict - from Channel 4 News.
Note that the women in the market in Tatrus are uncovered, some of them are even allowed out in public unaccompanied by a man!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rNc82fgvz4

Peist2007

Skylinehead wrote: »

Source for all this?

You'll be waiting.

Peist2007

IrishTrajan wrote: »

It was probably a failure of intelligence. We won't know until they launch their inquiry.

:pac:

Peist2007

Skylinehead wrote: »

They had plenty of intelligence from MSF telling them exactly where the hospital was.

Hospital has been there since the 1980s. To say it was an intelligence error is, quite simply, a lie.

Gatling

Peist2007 wrote: »

You havent a clue and your attempts to gloss saturday's indiscriminate bombing of a hospital is utterly disgraceful. Shame on you.

No I'm dealing in fact

Where am I trying to gloss over anything you claimed it was a strike with percision bomb I said it wasn't

K-9

Peist2007 wrote: »

You'll be waiting.

Peist2007 wrote: »

:pac:

Up the standard a bit please.

Gatling

Seems this hospital has only been open since 2011 ,
Afghan forces said they were coming under attack from the area ,
Doctors claiming its impossible because a member of staff had locked the front gate but as we know the Taliban don't stop for locked gates and walls .

Sky news now running the C130 strike confirmation from the US military

(2 days later )

Peist2007

Gatling wrote: »

No I'm dealing in fact

Where am I trying to gloss over anything you claimed it was a strike with percision bomb I said it wasn't

They bombed a hospital that has been the only one in that area since the 1980s. They were told about this hospital repeatedly by Medicins Sans Frontieres yet bombed it for 45 minutes. 45 minutes sustained bombing. After all of the worry and consternation over Russia's bombing raids in Syria.

The hypocrisy is unbelievable. And useful fools like yourself cannot or refuse to see the craven propoganda we are being fed. So spoon fed are you that you come in here and parrot it back. Utterly pathetic.

Peist2007

Gatling wrote: »

Seems this hospital has only been open since 2011 ,

Not true.

Gatling

Peist2007 wrote: »

Not true.

Fact.

MSF have been in Afghanistan since 1980 this facility opened in 2011

Peist2007

Gatling wrote: »

Fact

Nope. You'll need to provide some actual evidence for your facts. Other posters have asked and you have ignored. You have no credibility whatsoever in this thread in my eyes.

Gatling

In news today Turkey scrambled 2 F16s after a Russian jet entered it's airspace today seems Turkey aren't overly impressed with the Russians

Jelle1880

Peist2007 wrote: »

Nope. You'll need to provide some actual evidence for your facts. Other posters have asked and you have ignored. You have no credibility whatsoever in this thread in my eyes.

First Google result:

http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/news-stories/slideshow/trauma-care-where-there-was-none-northern-afghanistan

So yes, it does seem the hospital was open since 2011. Now, that's not really a reason to ignore the fact, this was probably well known to the authorities (especially if it's true that the doctors inside repeatedly informed them that the hospital was at that spot).

Peist2007

Gatling wrote: »

MSF have been in Afghanistan since 1980

So they would have a fairly good grasp on what a war crime is

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/04/afghan-hospital-bombing-msf-labels-us-airstrike-a-war-as-it-withdraws-staff

You havent a leg to stand on with this one. Total hypocrites, you included.

ancapailldorcha

Peist2007 wrote: »

So they would have a fairly good grasp on what a war crime is

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/04/afghan-hospital-bombing-msf-labels-us-airstrike-a-war-as-it-withdraws-staff

You havent a leg to stand on with this one. Total hypocrites, you included.

Do not post in this thread again.

Gatling

Nato released a statement calling on Russia to stop air attacks on anti assad forces and civilians and issues a cease and detist from breaching nato airspace.

This situation is getting more interesting every day

Chemical Byrne

Interesting? I'm sure the Syrian people consider their situation very "interesting".

Lockstep

Considering the Russian backed Assad government is responsible for the vast majority of civilian deaths , it's bizarre how many people are seeing Russia's actions as praiseworthy.

Jelle1880

And in the meantime Obama is asking for more arms to be sent to the rebels, while the Republicans and Democrats seem more in favour of imposing a no-fly zone over Syria.

Proxy wars, always interesting.

Junkyard Tom

Lockstep wrote: »

Considering the Russian backed Assad government is responsible for the vast majority of civilian deaths , it's bizarre how many people are seeing Russia's actions as praiseworthy.

Barrel bombs are nothing short of a war crime. It's a pity that Assad, the mass-murdering bastard, couldn't have held elections when the Syrian people sought them.

Personally I'm a little confused by the entire mess but the guy who heads up the Human Rights organisation that you've quoted seems less so.

"We disagree with the U.S. providing support to the FSA," Abdul Ghani said. "If there is any hint of support from the U.S. to the FSA, this would lead Assad to attack more civilians in villages in and around FSA strongholds."

[URL=""We disagree with the U.S. providing support to the FSA," Abdul Ghani said. "If there is any hint of support from the U.S. to the FSA, this would lead Assad to attack more civilians in villages in and around FSA strongholds."

theatlantic.com

First do no harm.

Count Dooku

Gatling wrote: »

A lot like Kremlin peddled propaganda like Russian bs about Kiev etnicly cleansing East Ukraine .

Yet again Syria conflict thread .

Not Ukraine,
Not Iraq ,
Not Afghanistan.

But no let's have a song and dance about nothing

Gatling

Count Dooku wrote: »

Yet again Syria conflict thread .

Yes actually it shows how russia used the same tactic it used in Ukraine but then again you'd know this from political cafe

Elmer Blooker

Lockstep wrote: »

Considering the Russian backed Assad government is responsible for the vast majority of civilian deaths , it's bizarre how many people are seeing Russia's actions as praiseworthy.

Isn't it bizarre how the rotten to the core morally bankrupt media have now suddenly forgotten the crimes committed by these blood thirsty head chopping women traffickers and are now calling them "opposition" or as I heard on the BBC, these Jihadis are now known as "pro-democracy" rebels.

Gatling

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Isn't it bizarre how the rotten to the core morally bankrupt media have now suddenly forgotten the crimes committed by these blood thirsty head chopping women traffickers and are now calling them "opposition" or as I heard on the BBC, these Jihadis are now known as "pro-democracy" rebels.

Not to be confused with ISIS ,

See last week the assad regime was dropping barrel bombs on his own civilian populations now this week we have Russia bombing syrian civilian populations .

Whats so democratic about that

Rhys Essien

Turkey not happy with Russian jets crossing into its airspace.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/05/us-mideast-crisis-syria-turkey-russia-idUSKCN0RZ0FT20151005?utm_source=twitter

karma_

Gatling wrote: »

Not to be confused with ISIS ,

See last week the assad regime was dropping barrel bombs on his own civilian populations now this week we have Russia bombing syrian civilian populations .

Whats so democratic about that

I watched one of the 2-part Vice mini-docs that was released recently and it was focused on, indeed titled as being footage of the 'secular' Rebels. However whilst watching I was struck with the thought that there was nothing secular about them at all. The West, and Russia in fact should stay out of this and by that I mean Russia should not have forces there and the West should be arming no one.

glued

Lockstep wrote: »

Considering the Russian backed Assad government is responsible for the vast majority of civilian deaths , it's bizarre how many people are seeing Russia's actions as praiseworthy.

Yes, bombing terrorists is a terrible crime.

It's amazing how people are too short-sighted to see that letting NATO co-ordinate this offensive would be a complete disaster. The Russians are no better or worse than any of the coalition nations.

Assad is a despot and needs to be removed. Neither the Russians or NATO are capable of doing that on their own. The American's don't want to commit to fighting Assad or ISIS outside air support. They both need each other. The CIA have supported Sunni Extremist rebels. They have armed and trained countless of 'moderates' who have since gone on to merge with extremist factions.

While the CIA are creating another Taliban; the Russians are blowing these idiots back to the stone age. Let's not imagine what an American backed SNC government would be like for the Alawis and Christians of Syria. Also while NATO are letting Saudi Arabia and Qatar back extremist groups such as the Army of Conquest the Russians are also stopping them too.

Let's not pretend that either side actually cares about the Syrians. There all as bad as each other.

Eugene Norman

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Barrel bombs are nothing short of a war crime. It's a pity that Assad, the mass-murdering bastard, couldn't have held elections when the Syrian people sought them.

Personally I'm a little confused by the entire mess but the guy who heads up the Human Rights organisation that you've quoted seems less so.



First do no harm.

The use of barrel bombs is no more a war crime than any other ordinance. Furthermore the definition of "civilian" is suspect. Civilians disappear when the US or Turkey bomb "terrorists" and reappear when Assad or Syria bomb the same people. Of course a terrorist is a civilian. These aren't organised registered armies. So the whole thing is definitional.

Eugene Norman

glued wrote: »

Yes, bombing terrorists is a terrible crime.

It's amazing how people are too short-sighted to see that letting NATO co-ordinate this offensive would be a complete disaster. The Russians are no better or worse than any of the coalition nations.

Assad is a despot and needs to be removed. Neither the Russians or NATO are capable of doing that on their own. The American's don't want to commit to fighting Assad or ISIS outside air support. They both need each other. The CIA have supported Sunni Extremist rebels. They have armed and trained countless of 'moderates' who have since gone on to merge with extremist factions.

While the CIA are creating another Taliban; the Russians are blowing these idiots back to the stone age. Let's not imagine what an American backed SNC government would be like for the Alawis and Christians of Syria. Also while NATO are letting Saudi Arabia and Qatar back extremist groups such as the Army of Conquest the Russians are also stopping them too.

Let's not pretend that either side actually cares about the Syrians. There all as bad as each other.

I wouldn't even put the term "moderate" in scare quotes or use it. The US has armed the rebels, all of whom are sectarian Sunni terrorists

Gatling

Eugene Norman wrote: »

I wouldn't even put the term "moderate" in scare quotes or use it. The US has armed the rebels, all of whom are sectarian Sunni terrorists

So what nuke the whole country and be done with it because the whole country can't be terrorists bar the assad regime

Eugene Norman

Gatling wrote: »

Not to be confused with ISIS ,

See last week the assad regime was dropping barrel bombs on his own civilian populations now this week we have Russia bombing syrian civilian populations .

Whats so democratic about that

Who's calling the Syrian regime democratic.

Do you neocons actually believe that there is any difference between what the US backed rebels want and ISIS? They are the same effective groups, all looking for a Sunni dominated Islamist caliphate to replace the secular dictatorship.

If the US rebels hadn't morphed into/ merged with ISIS the US would still be arming the rebels in the hope of a sectarian collapse of Syria. Which is in its interests. It isn't however in the interests of Europe or Russia.

Eugene Norman

Gatling wrote: »

So what nuke the whole country and be done with it because the whole country can't be terrorists bar the assad regime

The only country likely to nuke anything or anywhere is the US. But away with your strawman. Hopefully the combined forces of Russia, the Kurds etc can create a breathing space for Christians, secularists, moderates, Kurds, Alawites, Shia moderates, etc. 70% of the population is in government controlled territory.

Let's hope the US neocon plan of another failed state doesn't lead to another genocide. The best way is to protect the Syrian government. Whether run by Assad or not.

Gatling

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Who's calling the Syrian regime democratic.

Several posters have alluded to Assad been democraticly elected ,
My point is Assad bombing his own civilian populations he's totally lost the plot that most can agree on ,
Now we have Russia flexing it's muscles and getting involved and bombing syrian civilian populations and we well know from previous Russian military actions including in Russia they don't care who or where they bomb killing civilians is no issue to them ,
Which makes adding them to the mix absolutely stupid and unnecessary.
Russia have repeatedly blocked the UN from intervening who then preach at the UN about respecting sovereign states ,then launched his own airstrikes,
The same was seen in Ukraine (thats a whole different thread )

Eugene Norman

Gatling wrote: »

Several posters have alluded to Assad been democraticly elected ,
My point is Assad bombing his own civilian populations he's totally lost the plot that most can agree on ,
Now we have Russia flexing it's muscles and getting involved and bombing syrian civilian populations and we well know from previous Russian military actions including in Russia they don't care who or where they bomb killing civilians is no issue to them ,
Which makes adding them to the mix absolutely stupid and unnecessary.
Russia have repeatedly blocked the UN from intervening who then preach at the UN about respecting sovereign states ,then launched his own airstrikes,
The same was seen in Ukraine (thats a whole different thread )

Look. All of the people being bombed are both "civilians" and "terrorists".

Most non-combatants have left the area and everyone left, bar some misfortunates captured by Isis etc are belligerents of some form or another. And Russia opposed us bombings against the regime as far as I recall.

Good paleo-conservative view from the wiser Hitchens here:

http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2015/10/which-side-are-we-really-on-in-this-war-of-the-awful-against-the-evil.htm