ATH First Round match 6: BeakerJoe vs HashtagHeel

Bounty Hunter

As the fellah who used to run this thing until Mr Shabadu took over last year I'm back to ask his question(s) this year. He is now facing the one the only HashtagHeel in the th match up of the round and... here we go!

Simplified version of the rules:

I will post a topic and you have to post your response including why you made that choice within a given time limit (before the next match is scheduled to begin), take care while making your responses however as the other contestant can counter your arguement i.e pointing out possible flaws in what youve said.

*you can only counter an arguement two times so make sure your point is worth making. If someone's defense of their arguement isnt good it will count against them.

*You can use the same answer as your opponent if you wish i.e you agree with their choice however its hard to win a debate when your making the same points someone has already made

see the OP of the main thread for further details or if any examples are needed check out previous years competitions.

I think I've asked this every other time I ran ATH so why not this time seeing as I hadn't actually thought about this before now

Q: Who in your opinion is the most underutilized member of the WWE roster and if you were given the chance to book them what would you do with them?

After their response why is your choice (the most underutilized as apposed to your opponents) and how you would use them better than your opponents idea?

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Good luck lads!

beakerjoe

Q: Who in your opinion is the most underutilized member of the WWE roster and if you were given the chance to book them what would you do with them?

Well as BH has stated there’s a world of scope here as WWE have consistently dropped the ball with so many talents in recent memory. But who is underutilised the most at this current time, ..... my vote goes to....

Damien Sandow

Damien Sandow is a truly talented performer. Hes had great matches with Ziggler, Rhodes and John Cena and whether he’s a heel for face he gets great crowd reactions. He seemed to be on the slow path to the upper mid card when he won the MITB match in 2013 and it was much deserved.
Over the last 2 years Damien Sandow has gone from being on the cusp of a potential break out push, to a position of lower card obscurity, being one of WWEs comedic acts at the bottom of the card. WWE really has no idea what to do with him and they haven’t since he lost his MITB cash-in match against John Cena back in October of 2013. Nearly 2 years on, Sandow is missing in action since May of this year (in a losing effort with Curtis Axel against Harper and Rowan) and God knows what direction, if any his WWE career is heading in.

He is a former Money in the Bank winner, he can connect with the audience whether heel or face, and he’s capable of putting on a great match in between the ropes. So why is he being so under utilised? I’ve no idea frankly.

But I do have an idea in how to rejuvenate the stalling career of Damien Sandow.

Well he’s been off Television since May and with it now being September, I’d keep him off TV for the foreseeable future. Out of sight, out of mind and allow the fans to forget about the abomination that was Macho Mandow.

In the mean time I’d have his old nemesis The Miz, whos heel work is truly under rated by the way, go on a long undefeated streak from now. Wins over such stars as Ziggler, Cesaro, Ryback could all come his way and he would not be shy of telling people about it. This could lead all the way to Survivor Series where The Miz is the only man left on his team in a traditional 4 on 4 match, and is the sole survivor in his match. From this point The Miz is on top of the world, claiming to have done it all and lays out an open challenge the next night on Raw in what would be the first match of The Miz Hollywood Invitational Challenge, in which The Miz issues an open challenge to anyone. The Miz wins this match and continues to issue this challenge on the run up to the TLC PPV, beating all in his path and waxing lyrical about how no one can beat him.

Parallel to The Miz’s open challenge and undefeated streak, vague vignettes are played from Survivor Series on about The Return of a Saviour. These videos can be ultra vague, showing clips of previous WWE wrestlers’ successful returns and offering the promise of a return at TLC.

Come TLC, which is live from TD Garden in Boston, Massachusetts, The Miz comes out in the opening segment to issue the challenge and does his best to get cheap heat from crowd. He issues his challenge and a video plays just like the previous Vignettes but this one ends with the message that ten Saviour is here......The Saviour of the Masses!

Out comes Massachusetts own, Damien Sandow to a great hometown pop, much to the shock of The Miz. The match is a quick one, in similar vein to Taz v Angle, with Sandow getting most of the offence and foiling any attempt at gaining the upper hand and defeating him in less than 5 minutes, with Sandow looking very strong.

Sandow basks in the glory of his return, in front of a hot hometown crowd and would gain some momentum from here onwards. Sandow would give a heart felt promo on Raw, stating his displeasure at the path of his career post Wrestlemania and even post MITB 2013, and state that hes back and ready to take this latest opportunity by the horns.

Sandow tells the crowd how he is going to be taken seriously now Sandow would be plonked back into the mid card for now and would have a short run with a vengeful Miz, before slowly moving up the ranks with a good Royal Rumble showing.

Hashtag_HEEL

When I saw this question I had tossed three names in my mind. Three guys who WWE had gotten behind a little but ultimately dropped the ball on. These guys were Damien Sandow, Zack Ryder and Adam Rose. But how/where do I go with these guys? Sandow while a great talent has little to offer by way of a gimmick since his impersonation schtick went to the way side and he can't particularly resurrect the intellectual character and Ryder is forever tainted by that disgusting Cena/Kane fued so therefore the only logical candidate is Adam Rose.

He started hot as Adam Rose, has a good look, great promo skills, brilliant in the ring but the highlight of his WWE career is a backstage documentary and a feud with Sami Zayn in a Bunny costume



With my vision of Adam Rose, he could very well be an upper mid card player if all went well. So lets begin.

The Party Animal, Adam Rose
Adam Rose returns to the last RAW of 2015 to celebrate new years as a face having reconciled with the Rosebuds. He takes on the likes of Fandango, Heath Slater and Neville. Picking up wins at the hands of each on Raw each week. Rose gets in some impressive offence and develops a mean streak. You can see he's vicious in the ring as soon as he hears the bell. He declares himself the true Party Animal he's introduced as the party animal and the commentators drive home that he's is the party animal but behind this persona you can see that there's something wrong.

He looks over his shoulder constantly, in moments of great happiness after wins and celebration with the Rosebuds you can see fear especially when odd occurrences happen like his movements changing in the ring fro upbeat and fun to slow and methodical or him stopping dancing and suddenly walking to the ring, eyeing up his opponent like a piece of meat . The commentators pick up on this, they note hes acting strange and that there's something a miss with him but put it down to him being an eccentric personality.

He picks up a loss in a rebound with Neville on the final Raw before the Rumble. He snaps, he breaks down in the ring and begins to shout and scream, he pushes his Rosebuds away when a message appears on the tron. The message is written on a wall in red (blood but it's PG so its red liquid) and it reads "The Hunter is looking for the Animal". Rose looks terrified and can't believe what he has seen. The commentators do the usual "what's that about?" routine and we cut to commercial.

Following on from this incident, we see Rose backstage walking around. He's sweating and shaking, he's paranoid. Whatever just happened has freaked him out. He sees a door with his name written on it in red (blood). He enters the room slowly closing the door behind him. In a later backstage segment see the door but we hear shouting inside. Two distinct voices. One a scared softly spoken carribean party boy and the other, a gruff South African head hunter. We hear the head hunter say reassuringly and almost friendly "You know what you have to do, it's for the best, it's time to be the real you...think of the family." The door opens as we see a shaken Adam Rose say "Okay, I'll do it" and that is the last we see of Rose until...

THE ROYAL RUMBLE


The rumble is ongoing and Superstars are being thrown out left and right. Here comes entrant unlucky for some it's 13, Adam Rose. He comes to the ring. Upbeat and vibrant as always and hops up on the apron. The commentators talk about his strange behavior. As he gets in the ring Neville hits him with an enziguri and he sails out over the top. he's fuming, he can't believe his Wrestlemania shot has gone up in smoke. He reluctantly heads to the back, tail between his legs.

The Rumble continues person after person until there are 4 people left and one more entrant. The arena goes dark, the crowd are confused and then we meet Leo Kruger.



the other competitors look shocked and frazzled, but they have a match at hand so they continue to try and eliminate each other. Neville goes to kick Kruger but Kruger catches the leg and says "ah ah ah" and nearly rips his head off with a clothesline. He begins to viciously attack Neville. He stomps him he beats him down and attempts an elimination. Neville however pulls Kruger out as he goes out himself. Both men are eliminated. This doesn't stop Kruger, he drives Neville back first into the ring apron. He then sends him into the barricade and stomps a mudhole in him before smiling into the camera and walking off.

The Raw after
Neville is pissed, he knows that Rose and Kruger are the same person and tries talking to the Authority about it. Triple H explains that Kruger and Rose both have WWE contracts because Rose signed as Kruger on NXT and again as Rose. He has another Superstar on the roster that can compete and it's what's best for business.

Neville then seeks out either Rose or Kruger to challenge one of them to a match and get retribution but can't find either of them. In the following weeks Neville loses matches to the superstars due to interference by both Rose and Kruger, which will culminate with a match at Wrestlemania

How/Why does this work and where does it go?
The sky is the limit now because we have a Foley-esqe switching character now. Older fans will think of the three faces of Foley and younger fans will think it's a split personality.

There has been a feud set up with one of the most enjoyable babyfaces in the company and both men have great chemistry. There'll be a match at Wrestlemania, but there's a lot of intrigue to it. Who faces Neville? If one loses to Neville does the other still look strong? If one wins a title what happens to the other? How can people trust him? Why is Rose still a happy go lucky Party animal that people love while Kruger is a raging psychopath who destroys opponents?

It builds him up as an upper mid-card role if he does well against Neville and works toward titles. It makes him interesting and unpredictable to the audience and if they keep building him well he won't fall to the wayside again because there would be far too much invested in him by the fans wanting to see how two careers by one person pan out simultaneously.

Thanks for reading and I hope you enjoyed it

beakerjoe

Time for my rebuttal, While I like Adam Rose to a degree, allow me to pick holes in your answer.

Hashtag_HEEL wrote: »

Sandow while a great talent has little to offer by way of a gimmick since his impersonation schtick went to the way side and he can't particularly resurrect the intellectual character

Sandow by this stage doesn't need a gimmick to get over. The crowd already want to get behind him, as shown by his run with The Miz. WWE simple dropped the ball by killing the turn at WM with a Big Show win and not following up sufficiently. My suggest gives Damien the opportunity to recapture this momentum against his old foe and allows him to be himself.

He started hot as Adam Rose, has a good look, great promo skills,
brilliant in the ring but the highlight of his WWE career is a
backstage documentary and a feud with Sami Zayn in a Bunny costume

That's a stretch, c'mon. He has talent but he's limited in between the ropes and the failed to connect with the audience apart from his initial entrance on NXT and first weeks of his main roster debut, which got stale quickly. Rose never blew me away in the ring and while passable, his skill set is suited to the lower end of the car. Sandow was shown time and time again he can go in the ring and with the right creative direction, he can reel in the fans attention and keep them interested, something Rose has never done.

Basically my point is Rose isn't worth the push while Sandow, someone who can deliver and is younger than Rose by 3 years, has more of an upside to being pushed while being very underutilised himself. Rose is being handled poorly, yes, but Sandow has poor potential and therefore is being handled even worse than Rose.

The Party Animal, Adam Rose
Adam Rose returns to the last RAW of 2015
to celebrate new years as a face having reconciled with the Rosebuds. He takes
on the likes of Fandango, Heath Slater and Neville. Picking up wins at the hands
of each on Raw each week. Rose gets in some impressive offence and develops a
mean streak.

Hold on, you do know Rose is a heel right..... Apart from the new years twist, they tried something similar already and guess what? The fans didn't care. He hasn't connected with the audience at all and they show it be zoning out.

The Rumble continues person after person until there are 4 people left and one
more entrant. The arena goes dark, the crowd are confused and then we meet Leo
Kruger.

While your idea is fine, I imagine the fans would sh!t all over seeing Adam Rose come back down again. I can imagine the angle would get off on the wrong foot straight away.

Having Kruger be a spilt personality is a fine idea, but Kruger isn't that great a character after all. I was never mad on him personally and It didn't connect with NXTs audience and it was dropped in favour of Adam Rose. I cant see it connecting with the audience long term as it will be considered a Bray Wyatt knock off to casual fans because of the similarities.

I believe that while I like Adam Rose as a worker, I think he serves his purpose on the roster, I feel that is his limit. I feel any renewed push would be a futile exercise as he fails to connect with the crowd and isn't anything special in-ring wise. Sandow is in the same position as Rose, but he has the proven track record to connect with the audience and create 3/12 to 4 star matches if given a proper opportunity.

Hashtag_HEEL

I'll address your scenario and then any elements of my answer you found fault in.

beakerjoe wrote: »

God knows what direction, if any his WWE career is heading in.

beakerjoe wrote: »

Sandow by this stage doesn't need a gimmick to get over. The crowd already want to get behind him, as shown by his run with The Miz. WWE simple dropped the ball by killing the turn at WM with a Big Show win and not following up sufficiently. My suggest gives Damien the opportunity to recapture this momentum against his old foe and allows him to be himself.

Well this is the issue with Sandow. There is very little scope for change with him moving forward. The intellectual savior gimmick made a connection because it's the opposite of wrestling fans, its something you can easily go against. The gimmick itself is a heat magnet. He got over with the many impersonations and the Mizdow gimmick and credit to him he made them work. It wasn't the Big Show win that killed him, it was the fact that just being plain Damien Sandow with no character was going nowhere fast! Hence the slap dash Meta Powers team.

While I admit he is a great talent between the ropes and is good in certain roles, I don't believe that anybody will invest in Sandow if all he is, is himself.

beakerjoe wrote: »

In the mean time I’d have his old nemesis The Miz, whos heel work is truly under rated by the way, go on a long undefeated streak from now. Wins over such stars as Ziggler, Cesaro, Ryback could all come his way and he would not be shy of telling people about it. This could lead all the way to Survivor Series where The Miz is the only man left on his team in a traditional 4 on 4 match, and is the sole survivor in his match. From this point The Miz is on top of the world, claiming to have done it all and lays out an open challenge the next night on Raw in what would be the first match of The Miz Hollywood Invitational Challenge, in which The Miz issues an open challenge to anyone. The Miz wins this match and continues to issue this challenge on the run up to the TLC PPV, beating all in his path and waxing lyrical about how no one can beat him.

That itself is a solid build. Miz is a natural opponent for him seeing as there was never a natural conclusion to their feud. It gets Miz over as a force to be reckoned with and makes it a meaningful win in the end.

beakerjoe wrote: »

Come TLC, which is live from TD Garden in Boston, Massachusetts, The Miz comes out in the opening segment to issue the challenge and does his best to get cheap heat from crowd. He issues his challenge and a video plays just like the previous Vignettes but this one ends with the message that ten Saviour is here......The Saviour of the Masses!

Savior of the Masses! What does this mean? Is he saving us from the Miz? If so beating him isn't saving us because he'll be back on RAW again fairly quick and where does Sandow go afterwards? Big rule in Wrestling is that the Babyface makes good on his promises. If he doesn't "save us" from Miz, he's not done his job.

I know its a reference to the intellectual character but he was the savior of the "Unwashed Masses" and that character was him saving them from being morons/stupid.

He's no longer a savior just Joe Soap who happens to be a wrestler. No real gimmick or character.

beakerjoe wrote: »

Out comes Massachusetts own, Damien Sandow to a great hometown pop, much to the shock of The Miz. The match is a quick one, in similar vein to Taz v Angle, with Sandow getting most of the offence and foiling any attempt at gaining the upper hand and defeating him in less than 5 minutes, with Sandow looking very strong. QUOTE]

Brilliant, he beat the Miz and looked strong.You know who else beat the Miz? Alex Riley.

beakerjoe wrote: »

Sandow basks in the glory of his return, in front of a hot hometown crowd and would gain some momentum from here onwards. Sandow would give a heart felt promo on Raw, stating his displeasure at the path of his career post Wrestlemania and even post MITB 2013, and state that hes back and ready to take this latest opportunity by the horns.

I'm sorry but to me this reads as "I've squandered opportunities, and everything you liked about me as a heel is gone and everything you liked about me as an impersonator is gone too. I'm not my own person and in order to like me I have to be somebody else"

beakerjoe wrote: »

Sandow tells the crowd how he is going to be taken seriously now Sandow would be plonked back into the mid card for now and would have a short run with a vengeful Miz, before slowly moving up the ranks with a good Royal Rumble showing.

There you go, he goes back to square one. Plonked back into the mid card in a throwaway feud with the Miz. Where can he go from that? There's a lot happening in the Rumble, one good showing from Sandow doesn't get fans into him/behind him and in all honesty who can he fued with? He'll be used yes, but for how long and how well?

beakerjoe wrote: »

That's a stretch, c'mon. He has talent but he's limited in between the ropes and the failed to connect with the audience apart from his initial entrance on NXT and first weeks of his main roster debut, which got stale quickly.

The beauty of Wrestling is that it is completely subjective. Some people like aerial performers, others like mat based performers. What I should have said was hes mechanically sound in the ring and fairly entertaining to me anyway. He did manage to connect on NXT, even when he returned not long ago he got a great pop and the crowd were into the match too.

Can you blame fans for not getting behind him when his Debut and first feud is Swagger/Coulter who are being groomed for a quick face turn to face Rusev? The fans were into him but WWE immediately left him to drown by sticking him with Swagger and then stop starting him having him fued with your boy Sandow!

beakerjoe wrote: »

Rose never blew me away in the ring and while passable, his skill set is suited to the lower end of the car. Sandow was shown time and time again he can go in the ring and with the right creative direction, he can reel in the fans attention and keep them interested, something Rose has never done.

Rose had little room to develop the Adam Rose character. He wasn't on NXT for long before he was rushed up to the main roster so it's understandable he doesn't have the best move set going and it's difficult to expand on it when hes in 5 min matches on Main Event. Sandow wad given a strong upper mid card push twice with MiTB and Mizdow but ultimately fell down because of booking. In ring he's sound, more than sound he's very good but people need to be able to invest in the character.

Lance Storm or RVD were great in the ring and had great matches but it's hard to get behind two guys that bland and since Sandow lost Mizdow and the savior, he's as plain as them. Hes not as Vince would say a superstar.

beakerjoe wrote: »

Basically my point is Rose isn't worth the push while Sandow, someone who can deliver and is younger than Rose by 3 years, has more of an upside to being pushed while being very underutilised himself. Rose is being handled poorly, yes, but Sandow has poor potential and therefore is being handled even worse than Rose.

Age is hardly a factor to this, Sandow has been around for years! Remember Aaron "the idol" Stevens? He made his Sandow debut in 2012 and has done so little since. Yeah he won MITB but that went nowhere and I truly believe they used it to make him a place holder and elevate Cody as a face. He was Mizdow and everybody was entertained but when he lost that character he was just a dope who mimicked people and was so desperate to do so he ripped off of the Macho Man

My point is Sandow has been hanging around years and has been stop started and changed gimmick many times but it has had short term gain, like your program for him. Short term gain.

Rose is still a new character, he's been around for about a year and a half on the main roster and is about 2 years old as a character in general. I know he's older and never going to be in a main event unless its like R-Truths cup of coffee in the main event but I can see more room for growth and marketability with him than Sandow.

beakerjoe wrote: »

Hold on, you do know Rose is a heel right..... Apart from the new years twist, they tried something similar already and guess what? The fans didn't care. He hasn't connected with the audience at all and they show it be zoning out.

Having Kruger be a spilt personality is a fine idea, but Kruger isn't that great a character after all. I was never mad on him personally and It didn't connect with NXTs audience and it was dropped in favour of Adam Rose. I cant see it connecting with the audience long term as it will be considered a Bray Wyatt knock off to casual fans because of the similarities.

While your idea is fine, I imagine the fans would sh!t all over seeing Adam Rose come back down again. I can imagine the angle would get off on the wrong foot straight away.

The bunny murdered Adam Rose. The second WWE made them a tag team and put focus on the bunny he died. They couldn't turn the rabbit heel so Rose got the Raw deal in it and they have done very little to turn him back at this point. He did connect, people liked the character but they made him fight and lose to a guy in a bunny costume, how do you connect after that. With it being New Year fans tend to mellow out because they know that 'Mania is around the corner and big things are coming so they open up a bit more so it's a good time for a face turn.

It really depends on the crowd. Since he became Rose there had been massive support to turn him back to Kruger. The promos were good and he had a vicious and methodical in ring style that NXT fans liked. There was a lot of promise for Kruger and that E60 special got some fans clamoring for it again.

The whole connection buzz word is a product of the E60 doccumentary. Truth be told Kruger had connected, (he made a very cool promo in Dustys promo class that leaked online and people raved about) but NXT/WWE at the time couldn't think of a use for a character like that and this was just before NXT became a brand rather than just developmental.

If it's a smart crowd and everybody the fans want to come out enter, the mightn't mind it being Kruger. Some will get excited about the return as Kruger, some will think its a good call back to Foley taking up 3 Rumble spots and kids will be like "Wait that's the same guy? How is he doing this?" It all depends on the crowd on the night. What works/doesn't work in one town might not carry over to the next.

And the beauty of people making a comparison with Wyatt is that he could join the Family. You then have a new feuds and a new dynamic with Bray the leader, Harper the prodigal son, Strowman the black sheep and Kruger the Hunter.

beakerjoe wrote: »

I believe that while I like Adam Rose as a worker, I think he serves his purpose on the roster, I feel that is his limit. I feel any renewed push would be a futile exercise as he fails to connect with the crowd and isn't anything special in-ring wise. Sandow is in the same position as Rose, but he has the proven track record to connect with the audience and create 3/12 to 4 star matches if given a proper opportunity

What exact purpose does Sandow have? Sandow connects to the audience when he is heavily gimmicked and in your scenario he's Joe Soap who gets revenge and then nothing else? Where's his character? How will people connect with him if all he is is another dude off the street who has no reliability, no likability and no prospects.

You can give him all the opportunity in the world but if you don't give him some sort of character or a reason for the fans to like him it is a third and possibly final wasted push for Sandow.

beakerjoe

Hashtag_HEEL wrote: »

The intellectual savior gimmick made a connection because it's the opposite of wrestling fans, its something you can easily go against. The gimmick itself is a heat magnet.

He made the gimmick work. He had the vocal skills, confidence and the hard work and effort to make the gimmick work. There’s plenty of great gimmicks that don’t get over because of the guy portraying said gimmick, Sandow however got the gimmick over not the other way around.

He got over with the many impersonations and the Mizdow gimmick and credit to him he made them work. It wasn't the Big Show win that killed him, it was the fact that just being plain Damien Sandow with no character was going nowhere fast!

I completely disagree. The ending to his program with the Miz was set up perfectly. Not rushed and slowly building anticipation each week for when Sandow would take no more and revolt against his master. The crowd wanted to see him turn and when he did, it was a massive pop and it was done perfectly..... except Big Show was still around during the Battle Royal. Sandow had the crowd behind him and his momentum was killed by having Big Show eliminate him. It was horrible timing and it killed any steam he had built up.

While I admit he is a great talent between the ropes and is good in certain roles, I don't believe that anybody will invest in Sandow if all he is, is himself

.

The fans were ready to invest in him during the end of his MITB run, but after his cash in he was miss handled badly and under utilised.

That itself is a solid build. Miz is a natural opponent for him seeing as there was never a natural conclusion to their feud. It gets Miz over as a force to be reckoned with and makes it a meaningful win in the end.

Thanks, so you admit it makes sense here and it would be worth watching to a degree. Its more than I can say for a Rose split personality angle to be fair.

Savior of the Masses! What does this mean? Is he saving us from the Miz? If so beating him isn't saving us because he'll be back on RAW again fairly quick and where does Sandow go afterwards? Big rule in Wrestling is that the Babyface makes good on his promises. If he doesn't "save us" from Miz, he's not done his job.

Its an angle and The Miz and he have good chemistry. He can save us from the Mizs undefeated streak in kayfabe , but in reality it can be good material for he and The Miz to work off initially. The fans want to get behind Sandow, Im one of them, and The Mis is very good in his heel role and if given the direction above, the can bounce off each other giving us a short entertaining program.

I know its a reference to the intellectual character but he was the savior of the "Unwashed Masses" and that character was him saving them from being morons/stupid.

Its a new take on it from a face perspective. He saving us from The Mizs undefeated streak as hes waxing lyrical and by the time they face each other at TLC, the crowd will be dying for someone to stop The Miz and its a perfect platform for Sandow to begin his rebirth.

He's no longer a savior just Joe Soap who happens to be a wrestler. No real gimmick or character.

He has his own personality and it can shine through, he doesn’t need a gimmick to bolt him to the lower mid card. People already know him, they know what he’s capable of and he’s genuinely likeable and hard working enough to make it work as himself. Some of the best wrestlers of all time are simply just their own personality only louder and more outrageous. Sandow is very likeable and entertaining and he can make it work if given a chance.

Brilliant, he beat the Miz and looked strong.You know who else beat the Miz? Alex Riley.

Alex Riley was mis-handled to, in my scenario, Sandow wouldn’t be mis-handled. I could do one for A-Ri but thats not the question bub. Riley has been the victim of poor creative follow through,just like Sandow. Hardly eithers fault.

I'm sorry but to me this reads as "I've squandered opportunities, and everything you liked about me as a heel is gone and everything you liked about me as an impersonator is gone too. I'm not my own person and in order to like me I have to be somebody else"

As I said earlier, most good successful characters are wrestlers own personalities turned up to 11. Sandow can excel being himself and I know more people would get behind him than an Adam Rose revival. Rose didn’t connect as the party guy or as Kruger, where as Sandow has, as a heel intellectual and a face “stunt double”.

There you go, he goes back to square one. Plonked back into the mid card in a throwaway feud with the Miz. Where can he go from that? There's a lot happening in the Rumble, one good showing from Sandow doesn't get fans into him/behind him and in all honesty who can he fued with? He'll be used yes, but for how long and how well?

.

I cant push him to the moon yet, its not realistic. He would be back in the mid card, which is a step forward from what hes doing now (which is nothing, and less than what Riose is doing), and the feud isn’t throwaway, you’ve said that not I. Id have a short feud with maybe a match at the Rumble (its only 4 weeks away from TLC) After the Rumble he can feud with maybe a Kevin Owens, or a Rusev after an altercation in the Rumble. Would you like me to map out his whole career post TLC?





T

he beauty of Wrestling is that it is completely subjective. Some people like aerial performers, others like mat based performers. What I should have said was hes mechanically sound in the ring and fairly entertaining to me anyway.

Correct its subjective, but no one raves about Adam Roses work.... not to my knowledge. I certainly have never seen anything memorable. Hes passable at best , not awful, but passable in the ring and nothing more.

He did manage to connect on NXT, even when he returned not long ago he got a great pop and the crowd were into the match too.

He connected on his return to a NXT crowd who are in business for themselves. The Ascension even got a pop from this crowd and they are brutal. NXT just like to cheer for their own when they return from the main roster. Back when the Rose character was devised, Adam Roses entrance got over, not Adam Rose. After the music stopped, he was instantly forgettable.

Can you blame fans for not getting behind him when his Debut and first feud is Swagger/Coulter who are being groomed for a quick face turn to face Rusev? The fans were into him but WWE immediately left him to drown by sticking him with Swagger and then stop starting him having him fued with your boy Sandow!

Swagger and Zeb are good at what they do and were positioned were they should have been at the time. Rose was the problem, his playful shtick and messing about didn’t make fans tune in or pat attention after the first week , I for one was like "this is awful" and I wasn’t interested.

Rose had little room to develop the Adam Rose character. He wasn't on NXT for long before he was rushed up to the main roster so it's understandable he doesn't have the best move set going and it's difficult to expand on it when hes in 5 min matches on Main Event.

So you agree he’s not up to the standard, even if its not through a fault of his own. He’s 36, hes been wrestling for over 10 years yet still hasn’t had a memorable match. His matches as Leo Kruger in NXT were long drawn out affairs that were quite frankly boring, like his character.

Sandow wad given a strong upper mid card push twice with MiTB and Mizdow but ultimately fell down because of booking. In ring he's sound, more than sound he's very good but people need to be able to invest in the character

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No he wasn’t, he was given the briefcase and went on the old "lets have this guy lose to make his cash in more surprising" run. and then they decided to merge the titles with a big Cena /Orton match so had him lose his cash in and any plans he had potentially. The Mizdow push was ruined by the ending as he lost momentum straight away and creative dropped the ball by not knowing what to do with him.

Lance Storm or RVD were great in the ring and had great matches but it's hard to get behind two guys that bland and since Sandow lost Mizdow and the savior, he's as plain as them. Hes not as Vince would say a superstar.

RVD was red hot in ECW and at the last few months of the invasion and WWE dropped that ball for other reasons outside of wrestling. Lance Storm was talented and unfortunately boring, Ill give you that but Sandow isn’t. Hes got charisma which Storm sadly didnt.

Age is hardly a factor to this,

Age is always a factor, the older you are, the less dollars you may mean to Vince unless your a proven star. Roses time is against him while Sandow has 3 years extra to work with

Sandow has been around for years! Remember Aaron "the idol" Stevens? He made his Sandow debut in 2012 and has done so little since. Yeah he won MITB but that went nowhere and I truly believe they used it to make him a place holder and elevate Cody as a face. He was Mizdow and everybody was entertained but when he lost that character he was just a dope who mimicked people and was so desperate to do so he ripped off of the Macho Man

He was under utilised, mis-handled like many a WWE star. Its not his fault. Hence why I chose him over Adam Rose. You yourself admit he was on your list of 3 to pick. Hes vastly more under utilised than Rose.

Rose is still a new character, he's been around for about a year

And hes done nothing..... nothing....NOTHING. In a year hes done nothing. Bubkiss, zilch, nada.... . At least Sandow can point to actual feuds, championships and great matches. What can Rose point to?

but I can see more room for growth and marketability with him than Sandow.

You cant really see this. Ive seen nothing from Roses career to suggest that, I cant see it and Id love to know who does besides you.

He did connect, people liked the character

I disagree, I know very few people who like Adam Rose. The guy is a nice guy in real life, but hes his character sucked. "Don’t be a lemon".... He is a Lemon in terms of success.

but they made him fight and lose to a guy in a bunny costume, how do you connect after that.

Exactly, I dont think ill ever connect with him ... his brand is too damaged and he was never that great to begin with.

With it being New Year fans tend to mellow out because they know that 'Mania is around the corner and big things are coming so they open up a bit more so it's a good time for a face turn.

Perhaps, but he may just get lost in the shuffle. He’s not a man who is noted for getting great crowd reactions so I feel even if his turn was successful (which I don’t), he may not have the backing from WWE for a Mania match or feud seeing how WWE plans there WM angles well in advance these days. Sandow can connect, he just needs the right platform. WWE would have more faith I believe in Sandow than Rose at being a draw.

It really depends on the crowd. Since he became Rose there had been massive support to turn him back to Kruger.

Has there? I haven’t seen it. Ive seen online speculation but no massive support of any kind.

There was a lot of promise for Kruger and that E60 special got some fans clamouring for it again.

No one clamoured for it to begin with. The E60 special made people like the man behind Adam Rose. Hes a gent with a hard life. But I’m sure many wrestlers might be too, it doesn’t mean I want to see them on TV more. WWE already missed the boat with capitalising on the E60 coverage, its too late in the day now anyway.

Truth be told Kruger had connected, (he made a very cool promo in Dustys promo class that leaked online and people raved about)

Doing a good promo behind the scenes is different to doing it in front of a crowd live. Kruger didnt connect with the audience in my view.

If it's a smart crowd and everybody the fans want to come out enter, the mightn't mind it being Kruger. Some will get excited about the return as Kruger, some will think its a good call back to Foley taking up 3 Rumble spots and kids will be like "Wait that's the same guy? How is he doing this?" It all depends on the crowd on the night. What works/doesn't work in one town might not carry over to the next.

So your pitch depend on whos watching? Not a great foundation. More crowds in WWE arent that smart (the odd few are but they can be months apart.) According to you, the average WWE audience might not get his turn. Thats a risk dont ya think? Setting up to potentially fail by your own logic.

And the beauty of people making a comparison with Wyatt is that he could join the Family. You then have a new feuds and a new dynamic with Bray the leader, Harper the prodigal son, Strowman the black sheep and Kruger the Hunter.

The Wyatts are feud killers, Wyatt has stalled Ambrose, Reigns and adding Rose to the group would make him just another lackey and wouldn’t do much for him long term. Im already done with the Wyatts,Id rather them just go away.

How will people connect with him if all he is is another dude off the street who has no reliability, no likability and no prospects.

People already know him, hes hardly unknown and hes a very likeable guy. Give his own personality a chance to shine through, like Big E in the New Day let him be himself.

You can give him all the opportunity in the world but if you don't give him some sort of character or a reason for the fans to like him it is a third and possibly final wasted push for Sandow.

Any reason Sandow isnt in a better position in WWE is down to creative and not Sandow. WWE have failed to capitalise on anything good he did in the last 2 years apart from Mizdow which was a chance pairing at first. Creative are the problem, if Sandow was handled better after his loss with Cena (which was a great break out performance IMO) he may be in an upper mid card position with the likes of Ceasro, Owens and Rusev at teh very least. WWE dropped a red hot ball when they had Big Show beat Sandow so quickly after his turn and it killed him again. Not his fault. With the right care, Sandow can be a steady hand on WWEs ship at the very least and he deserves that.

Rose is a nice guy, but WWE needs lower tier guys and i feel he is limited to this position and its the best he can hope for.

Hashtag_HEEL

beakerjoe wrote: »

He made the gimmick work. He had the vocal skills, confidence and the hard work and effort to make the gimmick work. There’s plenty of great gimmicks that don’t get over because of the guy portraying said gimmick, Sandow however got the gimmick over not the other way around.

Oh completely, he got it over but that being said that gimmick is a natural heat magnet it wouldn't take a lot to be hated while doing it. Granted he brought the cadence and the confidence and all of the ability but when he stopped being that person he was left struggling.

I completely disagree. The ending to his program with the Miz was set up perfectly. Not rushed and slowly building anticipation each week for when Sandow would take no more and revolt against his master. The crowd wanted to see him turn and when he did, it was a massive pop and it was done perfectly..... except Big Show was still around during the Battle Royal. Sandow had the crowd behind him and his momentum was killed by having Big Show eliminate him.

Everybody waited to see him turn on the Miz, was a cool moment when it happened but there's that things to remember in that situation and they are:

-It happened on the pre-show, very few people watch/pay attention to it so it was a wasted opportunity, a cool moment but it's the equivalent of it happening on SmackDown.

-There is no shame what so ever in losing to a 20 year veteran like Big Show. He put on a good show and did the Benoit/Big Show spot. Was entertaining and didn't kill him

-The most important part of all is that when he turned on his master and was no longer Stunt Double Mizdow and was definitely not the Savior of the unwashed masses he just became Damien Sandow. A plain, generic wrestler who yes has a lot of talent but has no character.
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The fans were ready to invest in him during the end of his MITB run, but after his cash in he was miss handled badly and under utilised.

From my recollection of that time period nobody particularly cared. He lost to guys like Rhodes, Truth, Ziggler and Santino. No casual fan or non smark was saying "That Sandow is a complete loser and he thinks he's better than everyone, he cashes in and wins/loses"

Nobody really cared and as soon as people got a whiff about the title unification we all knew that Damien Sandow would be the one blemish on money in the bank. He is the first person to cash in and lose his match. Why would anybody support a guy who had the guaranteed title shot and a briefcase which is essentially holding the title already and loses?

Thanks, so you admit it makes sense here and it would be worth watching to a degree. Its more than I can say for a Rose split personality angle to be fair.

I'm a huge fan of the Miz and his deluded A-list celeb character so I'd find it worth watching anyway because more Miz is what I want to see, especially if he's on a win streak. It all depends on the person and what they'd like to see. Personally I like Miz but there are a lot of people who don't. I think the split personality will appeal to the audience because it's an interesting premise and it would be unpredictable each week, it would make people interested to see whether Kruger or Rose will appear and what they'd do.

It's also an excellent marketing opportunity for WWE because they can have things like Rose merch, Kruger merch, Rose Toys, Kruger toys and they can use either character to fill in space on Raw or Smackdown.

It's worth WWE investing in the split character because they will have an unpredictable character that fans can react differently to and they also make great money from kids or adults if they build him right.

Its an angle and The Miz and he have good chemistry. He can save us from the Mizs undefeated streak in kayfabe , but in reality it can be good material for he and The Miz to work off initially. The fans want to get behind Sandow, Im one of them, and The Mis is very good in his heel role and if given the direction above, the can bounce off each other giving us a short entertaining program.

Okay, that makes sense. Like I said it's a natural feud, but he beats Miz in 5 minutes and then what? He has a couple of matches with him and the floats about in the mid card. He's not really saving anyone from Miz because Miz cans still say "I was undefeated for X amount of weeks and that's more than any of you can say" and that "I'm still here and blah blah blah".

He hasn't made good on being a saviour. He just beat Miz a couple of times and that's really it

Its a new take on it from a face perspective. He saving us from The Mizs undefeated streak as hes waxing lyrical and by the time they face each other at TLC, the crowd will be dying for someone to stop The Miz and its a perfect platform for Sandow to begin his rebirth.

Okay Miz gets his comeuppance, everybody is happy but then we're left with a defeated Miz and a bland Sandow because his motivation is to beat the Miz.

He was treated like dirt, made to look like an idiot and was a basic slave. He needs to beat the Miz to restore his pride and show everybody that he is a Man. Problem is, if that is his only motivation and he has no character where will he go after he's achieved his goal? How will WWE book/market a guy who wanted to beat one person and did it.

At least with someone like Split Personality Rose you can argue that Rose wants to compete and have fun whereas Kruger wants to hurt people, we wants too hunt and take out the weak and when he has gotten rid of the weak, he can attack the strong and move toward titles.

He has his own personality and it can shine through, he doesn’t need a gimmick to bolt him to the lower mid card.

What personality does he have? Any personality we've seen has been in the form of being a condescending intellectual or a carbon copy of somebody else. That is not personality, mimicry is definitely not personality so there isn't much to shine through. He hasn't shown any kind of personality or reason to relate to or like him apart from wanting to beat Miz.

When I read the question I understood it to be how we could properly utilize our choice. Which in my mind is use them on the shows and bring them to their full potential. Being in the lower Mid card with no character and no future ideas for feuds after a short one with Miz is not utilizing him properly or bringing him to the level you believe he can reach.

people already know him, they know what he’s capable of and he’s genuinely likeable and hard working enough to make it work as himself. Some of the best wrestlers of all time are simply just their own personality only louder and more outrageous. Sandow is very likeable and entertaining and he can make it work if given a chance.

But again from what we've seen there is very little personality to turn up or make loud or outrageous. If you or WWE had planned to give him a new character/gimmick or motivation it could have worked but your answer gives him no likability, no relate-ability and relies heavily on the idea that he'll get a home town pop in the opening segment of a PPV that annually has had little viewership.

Alex Riley was mis-handled to, in my scenario, Sandow wouldn’t be mis-handled. I could do one for A-Ri but thats not the question bub. Riley has been the victim of poor creative follow through,just like Sandow. Hardly eithers fault.

In your scenario all I can see is mishandling. You give him nothing to work with and nothing for fans to get behind after he beats Miz. He is not utilized properly or to his full potential and it wouldn't take long for WWE to bump him back off the card as he is at the moment because they have nothing for him to work with.

As I said earlier, most good successful characters are wrestlers own personalities turned up to 11. Sandow can excel being himself and I know more people would get behind him than an Adam Rose revival. Rose didn’t connect as the party guy or as Kruger, where as Sandow has, as a heel intellectual and a face “stunt double”.

But who is Damien Sandow? How or why would we get behind a buy who once called us idiots and made us out to be scum and then became a stunt double? When he was both of those characters there was a connection because we could hate the snob and laugh at the gobs#ite stunt double but what reason would we have to connect to Joe Soap who has no character or motivation?

If booked correctly, Rose/Kruger could be an upper mid card star. I 100% believe that if handled correctly fans could soon love the fun and friendly party guy and hate the vicious hunter, but only if WWE get behind it ad explore both gimmicks to their fullest extent.

I cant push him to the moon yet, its not realistic. He would be back in the mid card, which is a step forward from what hes doing now (which is nothing, and less than what Riose is doing), and the feud isn’t throwaway, you’ve said that not I. Id have a short feud with maybe a match at the Rumble (its only 4 weeks away from TLC) After the Rumble he can feud with maybe a Kevin Owens, or a Rusev after an altercation in the Rumble. Would you like me to map out his whole career post TLC?

Not looking for the whole career but there was little promise to be shown after the Miz fued, especially when he has no character for fans to get behind or connect with. Why would we support him against Owens or Rusev?

Why in the world would Owens fight him? Owens is a prize fighter who looks to make money for his family but does it in an unlikable way. That's Owens motivation and character. There is no money in fighting Sandow, there is no reason to and if its because Sandow eliminated him he decides to fight him it's lazy booking.

I believe 100% Rusev would kill Sandow because Rusev has rarely been beaten and it doesn't make sense for them to fight either. January is a long way away but its hard to see where Rusev is headed after this abomination with Lana and Ziggler so come January it may not make any sense for them to fight the same as it doesn't now.

By booking Sandow as a returning character with no gimmick or post feud motivation you immediately put a roadblock in front of him because he has no feud with that we could believe or invest in.

Correct its subjective, but no one raves about Adam Roses work.... not to my knowledge. I certainly have never seen anything memorable. Hes passable at best , not awful, but passable in the ring and nothing more

Well to each their own I supppose. I've enjoyed both the fun Adam Rose and the vicious Leo Kruger equally.

He connected on his return to a NXT crowd who are in business for themselves. The Ascension even got a pop from this crowd and they are brutal. NXT just like to cheer for their own when they return from the main roster. Back when the Rose character was devised, Adam Roses entrance got over, not Adam Rose. After the music stopped, he was instantly forgettable.

I'll admit the NXT crowd are a pack of w#nkers but I genuinely believe people like the character to a degree. The tag match on NXT with breeze was fun and interesting and could've been cool if the ran with it, but that being said I genuinely think if given half a chance and a bit of decent build, Rose could do well

Swagger and Zeb are good at what they do and were positioned were they should have been at the time. Rose was the problem, his playful shtick and messing about didn’t make fans tune in or pat attention after the first week , I for one was like "this is awful" and I wasn’t interested.

How could anybody get behind someone who is a complete mis match for a feud? Like it was a death sentence from the beginning by sending a party boy to interrupt to Xenophobes talking about 'Murica and immigrants? It was death from the beginning they could have put him against anybody except Swagger and he mightn't have sank so far so fast.

So you agree he’s not up to the standard, even if its not through a fault of his own. He’s 36, hes been wrestling for over 10 years yet still hasn’t had a memorable match. His matches as Leo Kruger in NXT were long drawn out affairs that were quite frankly boring, like his character.

Okay let's go top three Damien Sandow/Mizdow/Mandow matches 3 1/2* and above, GO!

Again I enjoyed the Kruger matches because they suited the character. He was a hunter. He picked out weaknesses in the opponent, exploited them, picked at them and tortured them. He is a deeply disturbing character that had the potential to be creepy and unsettling because he doesn't hunt and torture just animals he does it to humans.

There's more to wrestling than just good matches. Early ROH had great matches but for the most part no character or story. I truly believe that to be a good wrestler you have a character with motivation and you can wrestle in a way that fits your character and I believe that both Rose/Kruger and Sandow do this but if Sandow is booked as you have put forward, there is no character to get behind and no ring style to suit having no character.

No he wasn’t, he was given the briefcase and went on the old "lets have this guy lose to make his cash in more surprising" run.

It may all be speculation but I believe that they gave him for the same reason they gave it to Bryan. It meant somebody had it, they had no definite plans and had no intention of giving him a proper run with the title.

and then they decided to merge the titles with a big Cena /Orton match so had him lose his cash in and any plans he had potentially.

Again I believe they had no plans for him and the easy out was to just have him lose and look like an idiot for the sake of Cena and Orton feuding again.

The Mizdow push was ruined by the ending as he lost momentum straight away and creative dropped the ball by not knowing what to do with him.

What could they do with him though? He's Johnny generic when he doesn't have a character or a genuine motivation. What in the world could they do with him after Miz when they didn't bother giving him any sort of character or reason to continue. They kept up the mimicry and then made him Macho Mandow because it gave him and axel something to do for a while.

Creative dropped the ball because they didn't have a character for him, they took everything away that made him and interesting heel and an entertaining face.

RVD was red hot in ECW and at the last few months of the invasion and WWE dropped that ball for other reasons outside of wrestling. Lance Storm was talented and unfortunately boring, Ill give you that but Sandow isn’t. Hes got charisma which Storm sadly didnt.

But RVD never had a character in the WWE at any point. He was riding the ECW invasion wave of people loving the fact that the best ECW guys were rebelling against the WWF.

He was laid back "yeah cool 420 dude" whereas in ECW he had Motivation he was the guy who felt he was too good for ECW and could perform so well there that WWF and WCW would call. When he was face he was an exceptional performer who wanted to show that even though he was in ECW he was still a top guy and he wanted to take ECW up with him. That was a character. That was motivation for him and that was something fans could either hate or love.

Damien Sandow doesn't have a motivation or a character in real wwe or in your scenario following on from your scenario

Age is always a factor, the older you are, the less dollars you may mean to Vince unless your a proven star. Roses time is against him while Sandow has 3 years extra to work with

Fair enough, but a few years of a well marketed Adam Rose/Leo Kruger would be worth more in the long run than Damien Sandow with no character or motivation hanging about doing nothing and cashing paychecks.

He was under utilised, mis-handled like many a WWE star. Its not his fault. Hence why I chose him over Adam Rose. You yourself admit he was on your list of 3 to pick. Hes vastly more under utilised than Rose

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I think they're both good talents who, if given the right character, motivation, storylines and feuds could be upper mid card guys. But I believe the way you look to handle him will hold him back in the same vain that WWE have done so because you haven't given him anything to work with or the fans anything to invest in and therefore the company don't either so he will not be utilised.

And hes done nothing..... nothing....NOTHING. In a year hes done nothing. Bubkiss, zilch, nada.... . At least Sandow can point to actual feuds, championships and great matches. What can Rose point to?

Adam Rose can point to a feud with Sandow and a bunny in a year and a half with the character being two years old. Sandow can point to fueds with Rhodes and Miz and a failed MiTB run in 3 years. Not much from either of you ask me.

But that's the point of this exercise, point them in the right direction of fuels and titles but I fully believe that your answer points him toward Miz and nothing else because he has no character or motivation to do anything else after him.

You cant really see this. Ive seen nothing from Roses career to suggest that, I cant see it and Id love to know who does besides you.

If you market both Rose and Kruger toward both adults and kids as two separate characters with their own merch you can make a tidy amount of money.

For Rose:
Those Wonka type glasses- $
Adam rose action figures- $
An exotic express toy bus- $
Colourful shirts and that lollipop necklace- $

For Kruger:
T-shirt- $
Leo Kruger Action figures- $
An animal tooth necklace -$

What kid wants Damien Sandow merch or how can they market him well enough to have people want his merch. Dude has no motivation, character or catchphrase so why would people by into him? And if wwe can't make money off of him, why use him?

I disagree, I know very few people who like Adam Rose. The guy is a nice guy in real life, but hes his character sucked. "Don’t be a lemon".... He is a Lemon in terms of success

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Sandow is a lemon too (success wise) but at least Rose had a catchphrase that whether you love it or hate it, you remember it! One of the only pieces of clever marketing with Rose up to this point but give him that split personality and you have stardust level merch sales to begin with.

The character didn't exactly suck. It was poorly executed by WWE. Wrestling always has fun characters and that's what Rose was meant to be. They just didn't give the character any time to develop. They rushed him to TV far too quick.

Exactly, I dont think ill ever connect with him ... his brand is too damaged and he was never that great to begin with.

And you can connect with Sandow? No character, no motivation and no reason to support him? At least if you split Rose and Kruger you can get behind them and you know what both want and stand for. Sandow stands for nothing other than beating Miz and then he's nothing. How do you connect with that?

Perhaps, but he may just get lost in the shuffle. He’s not a man who is noted for getting great crowd reactions so I feel even if his turn was successful (which I don’t), he may not have the backing from WWE for a Mania match or feud seeing how WWE plans there WM angles well in advance these days. Sandow can connect, he just needs the right platform. WWE would have more faith I believe in Sandow than Rose at being a draw.

But we don't know who/how WWE will put faith in anybody. At the end of the day WWE want people who will make them money so therefore they will utilise the person who can make them money and I don't believe Sandow can make them money or will continue to be utilised as you have portrayed him in your scenario.

Has there? I haven’t seen it. Ive seen online speculation but no massive support of any kind.

Lots of people on Twitter (including rose himself) have put forward and sent hashtags and campaigns

No one clamoured for it to begin with. The E60 special made people like the man behind Adam Rose. Hes a gent with a hard life. But I’m sure many wrestlers might be too, it doesn’t mean I want to see them on TV more. WWE already missed the boat with capitalising on the E60 coverage, its too late in the day now anyway.

Plenty of people wanted Kruger back as soon as he came in as rose because it was a new, bold and interesting character that hadn't gotten a chance.

He was in a program with Fandango and his new kayfabe Girlfriend Rosa Mendes. They could hardly acknowledge he has a wife and child and they were in a documentary when he's wearing the face off of Rosa on Raw.

Doing a good promo behind the scenes is different to doing it in front of a crowd live. Kruger didnt connect with the audience in my view.

His promos/vignettes were applauded on NXT for how well done and eerie they were, the leaked promo showed another layer to the character and if they had have rolled with it instead of jumping for Rose he'd be in a better position by now.

So your pitch depend on whos watching? Not a great foundation.

You're relying on the Boston show to give him a good pop and for the hometown fans to rally behind him. That's great, what happens when they're in another town and they couldn't give a flying fcuk about him? They have to reason to get behind him or invest in him, he's not relatable and he give no reason to support him other than the fact that he has returned and beat Miz.

More crowds in WWE arent that smart (the odd few are but they can be months apart.) According to you, the average WWE audience might not get his turn. Thats a risk dont ya think? Setting up to potentially fail by your own logic

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In my mind a crowd and TV audience around the end of the year are very mellow to what's happening. All it takes is a backstage segment of Rose reconciling with the Rosebuds and a match against a heel where he plays up his fun loving nature. It's a lot less risky than hoping that a hometown pop and a 5 minute match is enough to build someone with no character or motivation.

The Wyatts are feud killers, Wyatt has stalled Ambrose, Reigns and adding Rose to the group would make him just another lackey and wouldn’t do much for him long term. Im already done with the Wyatts,Id rather them just go away.

Well this wasn't originally a part of my plan but I think it would be cool to see Kruger with the Wyatts (be they terrible or otherwise) because it makes sense. They brainwash people, he's a hunter, it's magic!

You can also play up that Kruger has his allegiance to the Wyatts but Rose is just off doing his own thing partying away with his Rosebuds

People already know him, hes hardly unknown and hes a very likeable guy. Give his own personality a chance to shine through, like Big E in the New Day let him be himself.

People don't know Damien Sandow. They know the intellectual version, they know the stunt double version but Damien Sandow the wrestler with no defining characteristics and no motivation? We don't know him.

We've seen no personality from him other than the mimicry but that's him being somebody else. Fans might ask if Sandow is so boring as a person that he has to pretend to be others for acceptance. Why get behind someone who doesn't like or believe in themselves?

Big E is being himself because it's the gimmick he was given. He's essentially a black preacher and you know what, he's Dad in real life was and he was himself at a point. He is being a stereotypical black preacher (turning up a real faucet of his personality) and that's his character but his motivation is to help everybody be more positive AND he is also deluded thinking he's a good guy when people see him and treat him as a bad guy.

Big E has layers and dimensions to his character. Damien Sandow as he stands now and it portrayed in your scenario is as good as the cardboard cut outs of wrestlers you buy on WWESHOP

Any reason Sandow isnt in a better position in WWE is down to creative and not Sandow. WWE have failed to capitalise on anything good he did in the last 2 years apart from Mizdow which was a chance pairing at first. Creative are the problem, if Sandow was handled better after his loss with Cena (which was a great break out performance IMO) he may be in an upper mid card position with the likes of Ceasro, Owens and Rusev at teh very least.

Yes he would have been, in 2013 when he was still the intellectual and still had a character. The chances of him being anywhere as you have described him with no character or motivation he is destined to spnd his days on Superstars and Main Event with the likes of Zack Ryder, Curtis Axel and Los Matadores.

You know why? Because Ryder, Axel and the Bullfighters have no real character or motivation and that's where your idea of Sandow should be.

He wouldn't fit in with the likes of Rusev, Cesaro or Owens because each of those men have some degree of chracter or motivation that fans can eithe rally behind or oppose and Damien Sandow does not have that!

WWE dropped a red hot ball when they had Big Show beat Sandow so quickly after his turn and it killed him again. Not his fault. With the right care, Sandow can be a steady hand on WWEs ship at the very least and he deserves that.

If they give him a completely new relatable character with some sort of motivation he may be lucky and do well but if they were to use him as you have put forward he's going nowhere on the main card and could see himself on a spring cleaning list at some point.

Rose is a nice guy, but WWE needs lower tier guys and i feel he is limited to this position and its the best he can hope for.

I believe thats where Adam Rose will stay because he's fun and cool to watch but Leo Kruger in my mind would be a credible IC champ at some point

In Closing

Damien Sandow is a lovely guy but if you give him no character and no motivation, he's just another guy. Every person on the main roster who appears weekly on Raw/Smackdown has some sort of motivation or character. The Damien Sandow you have put forward has neither and will quickly fall to the wayside because neither fans nor management will buy into him. If his character (as you have detailed him) is plain Damien Sandow and his only motivation is to beat the Miz and he does it, he's dead in the water with nowhere to go and nothing for fans to connect with.

On the other hand, with the split Rose/Kruger you have two characters, two motivations, a way of getting fans to support or not support them and you have s degree of marketability and once his initial feud ends he has more feuds to enter because Adam Rose is fun and esay going party guy who wants to stop people killing the party and Leo Kruger is a psychotic head hunter who wants to hurt and torture the weak and once he's done that, he can hunt for titles and I believe that is far more valuable to WWE than Sandow as you have made him out to be. He will be utilised correctly, often and to his full potential because WWE can make use of two marketable characters with separate motivations and a level of unpredictability that Damien Sandow just does not offer

Phew that was a long one, I need a rest. Thank you for such a good match Beaker Joe and I hope you all enjoyed this too

beakerjoe

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