Advice needed regarding retrofit of insulation

DrPhilG

I bought a bungalow 3 years ago. The house is 10 years old but we are finding it very hard to heat and keep warm. We are on the side of a hill so it does get cold in the winter and the wind is fierce.

The house is around 1900 square feet. Has attic insulation but not very much, standard orange roll stuff up to the level of the beams. Walls have aeroboard with around a 40mm cavity remaining. I have a condensing boiler (running at 96% efficiency according to the guy who serviced it last week). Windows are double glazed but would be fairly basic quality.

We have been saving since we moved in to tackle this and now have a budget of around €5k to make the place warmer so I'm trying to get an idea of how and where best to make improvements while sticking as close to that as possible.

I have had a few quotes and made a few enquiries but I'm seeking some advice here before proceeding.

Windows - I have quotes pending for changing the windows to argon gas filled. Also potentially going for double laminated glass on the main windows, bedroom and living room.

Walls - We are thinking that in the long run, we will dryline the interior walls a room at a time, whenever we are redecorating. I have had 1 quote back so far for bonded bead insulation at €1250 (before grant). I know there have been issues regarding damp caused by moisture transfer in the cavity insulation but is the bonded bead stuff safe enough?

Attic - This bit is interesting... The same guy who quoted for the walls also quoted me €1900 for adding 8 inches of the same type of insulation in the roofspace. That included installing vents etc and raising the existing boards in the attic to accomodate them. This was all grant compliant.

However I had one guy quote me over the phone (without coming out) for €900 to add 8 inches of the same type of insulation in the roofspace. This was not grant compliant. He said that adding vents everywhere was a false economy and that the extra work required to make the job grant compliant was more than it was worth. Does he have a point or is he just not bothered with doing all the extras for the grant? €1k cheaper is a big drop.

I also had a quote for the foam attic insulation but that was north of €3.5k so I don't think it's a realistic option for us.

Any helpful hints or suggestions?

Calahonda52

We are on the side of a hill so it does get cold in the winter and the wind is fierce.
is the key to this project.
You have to reduce air changes so the focus has to be on air tightness.

I wouldn't go near the windows now.

Re the existing wall vents, take off one of the interior wall vents and post a picture of what is in there: I want to see if the exterior wall vent is fully ducted across the cavity.

Pumping 8 " of xyz with out addressing the airtightness/air-changes will be a waste of money

is the attic converted?
is the roofing felt black bitumen or breathable?

Have u considered planting a wind-screen to shelter the house from the prevailing wind?

DrPhilG

Calahonda52 wrote: »

We are on the side of a hill so it does get cold in the winter and the wind is fierce.
is the key to this project.
You have to reduce air changes so the focus has to be on air tightness.

I wouldn't go near the windows now.

Re the existing wall vents, take off one of the interior wall vents and post a picture of what is in there: I want to see if the exterior wall vent is fully ducted across the cavity.

Pumping 8 " of xyz with out addressing the airtightness/air-changes will be a waste of money

is the attic converted?
is the roofing felt black bitumen or breathable?

Have u considered planting a wind-screen to shelter the house from the prevailing wind?

Excuse my stupidity, but what existing wall vents? The only way I know what current cavity insulation I have is because the guy who gave me a quote was able to see into the cavity via the inside of the electric meter box.

Never heard of a wind-screen.

Attic is not covered, but there are wood sheets screwed onto the beams along the centre.

I'll check the roofing later.

Many thanks.

Calahonda52

10 year old house with no wall vents: are the vents all in the windows then?
The esb meter box is a massive source of air infiltration into the fabric of the building that once the wind gets into the cavity the insulation is worthless

this should help.
https://www.nsai.ie/S-R-54-2014-Code-of-Practice.aspx

Wind screen or wind break: evergreen shrubs: http://homeguides.sfgate.com/plant-windscreens-23962.html

MicktheMan

Calahonda52 wrote: »

We are on the side of a hill so it does get cold in the winter and the wind is fierce.
is the key to this project.
You have to reduce air changes so the focus has to be on air tightness.

This ^^^

If your house cools quickly after the heating has been switched off then the problem is a lack of air tightness rather than insulation.

First step is to have the house tested for air tightness. Then take it from there based on what is found.
By not doing this you will waste your hard earned and saved money!

DrPhilG

Gotcha on the wind break.

Only issue is that we get most of the wind from one side of the house. And there isn't any room on that side to plant trees.

As for vents, I'll have a read of the document. As far as I can see the only vent on the outside walls is for the kitchen extractor fan.

DrPhilG

I also contacted the [snip]

Thought it may be worth getting them to do an assessment? Since all the people I have contacted so far for quotes are obviously going to try and tell me that their product is the solution, I'm assuming that the -snip- will give an independent review?

Calahonda52

DrPhilG wrote: »

I also -snip-

Thought it may be worth getting them to do an assessment? Since all the people I have contacted so far for quotes are obviously going to try and tell me that their product is the solution, I'm assuming that the -snip- will give an independent review?

An assessment is not the same thing as an A/T test: you have pretty much had the assessment done here!
If the assessment includes an A/T test fine, but if not then you should at least have the A/T test done before the assessment.

Its not the product that really matters, its the workmanship..

Am puzzled by the lack of wall vents: are the vents on the window sashes?
some pics perhaps?

DrPhilG

There are vents in the window sashes. Other than that the only vents in the walls are for the kitchen extractor and bathroom extractors.

I'll add some pictures later, can't do it via the mobile.

If the energy assessors don't do an air tightness test, who does? Any recommendations in the Donegal area?

Calahonda52

http://www.nsai.ie/Agrement-Certification/Product-Certification-for-Air-Tightness-Testing.aspx#Register

As a matter of interest I assume u have concrete barges at the gable ends and no overhangs and two gables as opposed to a hip roof at each end?

What type are the floors, concrete or suspended timber?

Are the softie boards vented on each side?

DrPhilG

Calahonda52 wrote: »

http://www.nsai.ie/Agrement-Certification/Product-Certification-for-Air-Tightness-Testing.aspx#Register

As a matter of interest I assume u have concrete barges at the gable ends and no overhangs and two gables as opposed to a hip roof at each end?

What type are the floors, concrete or suspended timber?

Are the softie boards vented on each side?

After some googling to see what the hell a hip roof is (I really know nothing about this stuff), no I do not have a hip roof. It is 2 gable ends. Concrete barges at the gable ends, I'm still confused.

Floors are concrete, that I do know from when we got the house and all the flooring was stripped out.

Softie boards, I'm guessing was an autocorrect of soffit? No, there are no vents in the soffits either.

Some pictures...

DrPhilG

The fence you see in the pictures is the end where we get most of the wind, as demonstrated by the fact that the fence is hanging off! That fence is the boundary, so we really don't have any space to plant any trees as a wind break. Although I've always been tempted to make enquiries about buying the little strip of land next to me from the neighbour. It's just a bit of wasteland about 8-9 metres wide and is never used.

Calahonda52

Nice looking gaff.

yep, auto correct:)
right: whats the story with that crack in the concrete door jamb?

The rubber seals on the full frontal window foto look a bit shot: they can be replaced.
Also not convinced the windows are fully sealed to the concrete reveals.
Any chance of a gale end/eaves foot re the concrete barge question: Am guessing u don't have one.

Am puzzled by the lack of air vents in the soffits, we need HUMINT from inside the attic.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_intelligence_(intelligence_gathering)


Any chimneys?
how well sealed are the exterior doors?
how well sealed is the attic hatch?
I would consider a storm porch [ aka draught lobby in Dublin 4] at the front door, or whatever door u use most, as a decompression chamber for stopping the wind racing through the house every time u open to door.

To pick up on an earlier question: dismiss internal insulation as an idea for now, u need to focus on the exterior wind tightness and attic insulation so we need that HUMINT.
Think of the attic insulation, when properly done and airtight issues addressed, as a woolly cap on your head.
Opening the attic hatch and horsing up a few rolls of glass fibre is not the way we have in mind.

the other analogy here is that a very nice Donegal knitted woolly jumper wont work well in wind, however put on a wind breaker and the wind breaker retains the warm air in the airspace in the jumper: the air is the insulation medium, not the wool, or glass fibre etc

DrPhilG

Calahonda52 wrote: »

right: whats the story with that crack in the concrete door jamb?

There's a few cracks, asked around a few years ago when we moved in, was told to keep an eye and make sure they didn't get any worse which they haven't so didn't worry about it.

Calahonda52 wrote: »

The rubber seals on the full frontal window foto look a bit shot: they can be replaced.
Also not convinced the windows are fully sealed to the concrete reveals.
Any chance of a gale end/eaves foot re the concrete barge question: Am guessing u don't have one.

My friend is a glazer, so I'll ask him about that. I'm guessing he's the man who'll be tasked with fixing it!

I'm at work now, but I'll take a heap of pictures tonight and add them. Not sure what the concrete barge would look like?

Calahonda52 wrote: »

Any chimneys?
how well sealed are the exterior doors?
how well sealed is the attic hatch?
I would consider a storm porch [ aka draught lobby in Dublin 4] at the front door, or whatever door u use most, as a decompression chamber for stopping the wind racing through the house every time u open to door

One chimney that is in use, although there is what appears to be another one on the opposite end of the house. We always assumed that it was done for aesthetic reasons since there isn't a fireplace there.

Sealing of the doors seems fine, we don't hear or feel any drafts. Again I'll get my friend the glazer to double check.

We use the back door almost exclusively. It opens into a back hall.

Thanks for all the help and advice. I have sent off a few emails for pricing etc for air tightness testing.

Calahonda52

the other thing that needs looking at is the rubber seals holding in the glazed units: look in the corners and make sure there is no gap due to shrinkage/cut too short etc: ur glazer friend will have his own ideas but clear silicone is sometimes used to plug these holes.

Re the A/T test, I would suggest u address the obvious leakage areas first so as the test can focus on the harder stuff.

What in the working chimney?
if its just an open flue then heat loss is hugh and your savings could be well spent on doing something with it

DrPhilG

Calahonda52 wrote: »

What in the working chimney?
if its just an open flue then heat loss is hugh and your savings could be well spent on doing something with it

Just open flue. Only alternative is a stove though and we really love the open fire.

Calahonda52

DrPhilG wrote: »

Just open flue. Only alternative is a stove though and we really love the open fire.

Have you told herself that the open flue is accountable for maybe 45% of the heat-loss through air infiltration and that that hitless is 24/7.

Why not have a simple test: stuff it some night and see the difference

DrPhilG

To confuse things, for the first 6-8 months after we moved, we didn't light the fire and the flue was stuffed. The house was freezing then too.

It was actually the cold at that stage that prompted us to unblock it and light the fire!

Anyway, some pictures. Ignore the rubbish in the attic!

DrPhilG

DrPhilG

Calahonda52

So much for the barge idea:)

need to see new pics

To test the AT of the hatch as well as other points of interest, maybe get something like this
http://www.adverts.ie/crazy-random-stuff/wizard-vapour-air-flow-indicator-kit/1543418

I have one they work very well.

So now that we have a lot more info: how is the house actually heated, and to answer one of Micks questions: how quickly does the temp from when no heat.
I am beginning to think about how effective the cavity wall insulation isL that esb meter does bother me.

DrPhilG

House is heated by oil. Got a new condensing boiler when we moved in.

House warms up fairly quickly when you stick the oil on. We have it on a timer to come on from 7:00 til 7:45 in the morning and when we roll out of bed at 8 it's pretty cosy. It comes on again from 4:15 til 5:15 and again it's nice and warm when we get home around 5:20.

Calahonda52

DrPhilG wrote: »

House is heated by oil. Got a new condensing boiler when we moved in.

House warms up fairly quickly when you stick the oil on. We have it on a timer to come on from 7:00 til 7:45 in the morning and when we roll out of bed at 8 it's pretty cosy. It comes on again from 4:15 til 5:15 and again it's nice and warm when we get home around 5:20.

Missed that in first post: so rads are the right size etc

Am also puzzled at the lack of air vents in the soffits to allow the roof space breath.

Is it breezy up there when windy, does a gale blow up the open hatch?

DrPhilG

Not really.

The attic does get shockingly warm during the summer.

Calahonda52

DrPhilG wrote: »

Not really.

The attic does get shockingly warm during the summer.

Okay, that issue is addressed by taking note of what is called decrement delay.

If u were to insulate the inside of the rafters in the roof space, u need a dense insulation such as wood fibre boards as opposed to a less dense material such as the XPS's etc: do some research.

However if you are doing that the roof ventilation issue needs to be considered.

Me thinks you need to get some sort of a weapon for testing for drafts and start going around windows and doors.

Again, how do u kno the walls are cavity wall with insulation?

Are the bathroom and kitchen fans sealed across the cavity?

DrPhilG

Calahonda52 wrote: »

Again, how do u kno the walls are cavity wall with insulation?

Are the bathroom and kitchen fans sealed across the cavity?

An insulation installer opened the electricity box and checked. He said he could see that it was aeroboard with a 40mm gap left.

No idea if the fans are sealed.

Calahonda52

DrPhilG wrote: »

An insulation installer opened the electricity box and checked. He said he could see that it was aeroboard with a 40mm gap left.

No idea if the fans are sealed.

why dont U open the box and take some pics for us

re the fans, u need to check.

The more I think about this I wonder about the cavity.

DrPhilG

I'll try to get some pictures of the cavity tonight.

How would I check the fans?

I have had 2 quotes for an airtightness test, using fans and thermal imaging camera.

The cost in both quotes is similar, and offers the test with or without a report. The extra cost for the report is around €120 in each case! Is there a reason it's so expensive? Is it not essentially just the findings of the test presented in an official report rather than just told to me in person?

Calahonda52

Have you any idea how long it takes to write up a customised report?
I woiuld alos imagine that it will expose the writer to some professional liabily which is not cheap insurance.

However I should not be surprised really, this epitimises the attitude of a large tract of the homeowner chort toward paying fro professional advice for what is their most valuable asset, or liability as the case may be but it is big.

DrPhilG

Calahonda52 wrote: »

Have you any idea how long it takes to write up a customised report?
I woiuld alos imagine that it will expose the writer to some professional liabily which is not cheap insurance.

However I should not be surprised really, this epitimises the attitude of a large tract of the homeowner chort toward paying fro professional advice for what is their most valuable asset, or liability as the case may be but it is big.

I'm honestly not sure that I understand a lot of that, but I'm reading it as an attack on me for wanting things on the cheap?

That's not what I'm getting at. I'm not underestimating the knowledge required for producing the report. But I didn't understand why is costs €250 for the professional to do the test and tell me all the information verbally, but an extra €120 for them to write it down instead (I know it's more complicated than that of course). To me the person has already completed the technical aspects and imparted their valuable knowledge and that's what justifies the cost. I would have thought that producing the report was less involved.

Even if I do understand the reasons for the cost of the report, my main question is whether there is actually €120 worth of benefit to me as the customer. There is no grant related need for the report, it would just be a professionally produced report repeating what the person will have already told me.

water-man

Hi,

Prob a daft question but are you only heating the house for the times listed above? Or is the heating on more often than this?

Are all rooms being heated or only a few?

Regards,

WM