Croke Park hours: detention for adults

gaiscioch

This about sums up my views on the Croke Park hours as I sat there thinking of where I should have been instead of sitting in a school doing absolutely nothing productive. Zero. The last batch of hours didn't even have the pretence of working about them as I had my subject plans for the year prepared long ago, but the existence of these hours meant I could not do something important. So I sat counting the time, like a scene from an absurdist drama, and thinking of where I had to be/somewhere where something could be achieved/somebody could be looked after. Real things. Real. Punishing an entire profession with nothingness is certainly creative on the part of the government of this state.

Just what is the point in treating adults in such a demeaning fashion? For what, precisely, is the government of this state punishing the adults who constitute the increasingly pseudo-profession of teaching?

The overwhelming number of these 33 hours serve absolutely no point. About 3, perhaps 4, hours per year would be sufficient to cover school business. We do not need to be detained at the behest of this state's government in order to produce schemes of work for the year. It's difficult to conceive of a more inefficient use of the knowledge and expertise of an entire profession in Irish society than these hours - all planned without irony by proponents of the "smart economy" in government buildings.

The rest of the hours are part of a rightwing ideology in the DoES to impose a culture change in Irish teaching. This is their real aim. The hours in themselves are not even about saving money (although a defeated, demoralised, broken teaching profession ultimately does of course have significant short-term financial benefits for the state, as the English system demonstrates).

These hours are about setting precedents which fundamentally reduce our terms of employment. They are about imposing more responsibilities on us for all sorts of things beyond our control, and about suffocating the sense of freedom and enjoyment we derive from our teaching by requiring us to submit reams of paperwork for everything. More generally, they are wholly about extracting much more lower-grade tangential work out of Irish teachers for even less pay. They want their low-cost yellow-pack education system and their low-cost yellow-pack pliant teachers, while they continue to lower taxes on wealthy corporations and the like. There are c. 100,000 teachers with votes in the forthcoming election in this state. None of us have much power as individual citizens. Use your little bit of power on election day to stop this destruction of your career as you've known it.

acequion

And I certainly plan to gaiscioch. And look forward to telling them as much when they have the cheek to come to my door in search of votes. Our current Government are merely the puppets of the big neo liberal European project. They don't even pretend to represent the people any more.

I call the CP hours my community service. Because I see it as a penalty for having a secure job. It keeps the masses happy that teachers are finally "giving something back". Our job is a holiday after all!! :rolleyes: And it gives the Government a chance to demean us and to further lower our monetary worth,so that we become as you say,yellow pack workers, which is all part of the great neo liberal project. Shrink the state to an absolute minimum and run public services at shoestring budget.

I get cross when I hear people wanting to use the hours "productively". The only productive use is scrappage and no less. In the meantime we do them because we have to,because they've been punitively imposed on us. Something which we should remind any over zealous collegue or principal getting excited about how we might use the hours.

byhookorbycrook

acequion wrote: »

. Because I see it as a penalty for having a secure job. It keeps the masses happy that teachers are finally "giving something back". Our job is a holiday after all!! .

This, exactly .

katydid

gaiscioch wrote: »

. Use your little bit of power on election day to stop this destruction of your career as you've known it.

Hear, hear. I'm not sure how useful it will be though. When I emailed the Labour Party to formally resign, on the basis of what they (Quinn at the time) were doing to the Irish education system, having outlined all you said above and more, I got back waffle about how we all have to make sacrifices etc. etc. There seemed to be no comprehension, in that party at least, of the destruction they are wreaking

jjdonegal

They are quite simply infuriating as they are pure pointless.
What do people do for their individualised hours?

rainbowtrout

jjdonegal wrote: »

They are quite simply infuriating as they are pure pointless.
What do people do for their individualised hours?

inservice outside of school hours.


We had CP hours this week. For part of the session we were taught how to use scientific calculators, I kid you not. :eek:

deiseindublin

rainbowtrout wrote: »

inservice outside of school hours.


We had CP hours this week. For part of the session we were taught how to use scientific calculators, I kid you not. :eek:

The really head wrecking part of that is that your CP meeting was obviously geared towards a handful of weakest links, but you all had to sit thru' it. Same across every staff room in the country.

mirrorwall14

We had a pretty decent presentation on google apps at the start of the year. However I'm already using google apps for years and had Google classroom all set up ready for the students to arrive back. It was a total and utter waste of my time apart from one statement telling me I have unlimited storage with my school account (sweet!!!). Having said that I got to use my laptop in the meeting so I got necessary planning done instead.

The creation of hours that could not be used for contact with students was the most kick in the teeth part of the whole thing. If you do a sport/club/extra classes a few hours a week why couldn't one of them have been acknowledged? It has created a host of bad feeling and I resent every damn minute of them

katydid

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

The creation of hours that could not be used for contact with students was the most kick in the teeth part of the whole thing. If you do a sport/club/extra classes a few hours a week why couldn't one of them have been acknowledged? It has created a host of bad feeling and I resent every damn minute of them

It was a slap in the face to the teachers who had given countless hours for nothing, and has been counterproductive. In several second level schools near me, teachers no longer do the after-school activities, and people have to be hired in if they happen at all.

mirrorwall14

It really caused resentment. And the s and s pisses me off too. As a music teacher I end up a lot of break/lunches speaking to or working with students as well as supervising the school band and the chamber choir (yes I know I don't 'have to do them' now I'm permanent but I did until last year and so far I'll keep it up). However the last two years I've had to go back to management and get them to change my 15 mins slots to before/after school or a break I have actually got a class free for even though I had them marked. They keep moving me back to a lunchtime and then it's like I'm asking for a favour to move it back to where I requested in the first place. I wouldn't mind if it wasn't for a few people in the staff room saying they were put after school even though they didn't want it??! If it happens again next year I'll be saying fine I'm doing it but the school band is done.

The whole croke park/Haddington road sucks. I hope we all vote no

jjdonegal

rainbowtrout wrote: »

inservice outside of school hours.


We had CP hours this week. For part of the session we were taught how to use scientific calculators, I kid you not. :eek:

The same. Does anyone get to use those 5 hours for in school stuff? We literally get everything rejected apart from in service outside of school hours.

rainbowtrout

jjdonegal wrote: »

The same. Does anyone get to use those 5 hours for in school stuff? We literally get everything rejected apart from in service outside of school hours.

I think there were a couple of posts on here before about teachers using them for department meetings at lunchtime etc. To be honest, I'm busy enough as it is without giving up my lunchtimes for CP hours. I'd prefer to do the evening inservice which I'd probably be doing anyway and use them against my 5 hours.

acequion

Agree with rainbowtrout. I really need and value my lunch break and work best when I get breaks during the day.Much as I completely resent those CP hours the lesser evil for me is after school.

amacca

katydid wrote: »

It was a slap in the face to the teachers who had given countless hours for nothing, and has been counterproductive. In several second level schools near me, teachers no longer do the after-school activities, and people have to be hired in if they happen at all.

Good, its about time teachers started copping on and have some respect for themselves and other teachers imo

if you are being disrespected (thats the culture whether intentional or not) then you have to stand up for yourself where possible and start cutting out the freebies.....oh gets 45mins for lunch and often feels guilty for taking it ffs despite giving up what must amount to weeks of free time organising activities, giving extra classes etc etc. Ive stopped telling her she's mad (as I understand where she's coming from) but I think she's beginning to see the light....ultimately she will receive little or no thanks and if she does she will be heaping more pressure on people to do ever more to get ahead etc......do what you are supposed to do and no more (focusing on the learning/syllabus - thats a demanding enough job anyhow given how a teachers authority has been eroded), engage with policy and make informed decisions when it comes to votes in terms of thinking through proposals and their ramifications and then leave it behind for at leas some part of the week

I have a feeling the policies being pursued will cost more in the long run than they will save in the short term but of course that will all be glossed over by the powers that be with numerous press releases/expert groups/talking shops and jobs for the cronies and the usual bluster etc etc

katydid

amacca wrote: »

Good, its about time teachers started copping on and have some respect for themselves and other teachers imo

if you are being disrespected (thats the culture whether intentional or not) then you have to stand up for yourself where possible and start cutting out the freebies.....oh gets 45mins for lunch and often feels guilty for taking it ffs despite giving up what must amount to weeks of free time organising activities, giving extra classes etc etc. Ive stopped telling her she's mad (as I understand where she's coming from) but I think she's beginning to see the light....ultimately she will receive little or no thanks and if she does she will be heaping more pressure on people to do ever more to get ahead etc......do what you are supposed to do and no more (focusing on the learning/syllabus - thats a demanding enough job anyhow given how a teachers authority has been eroded), engage with policy and make informed decisions when it comes to votes in terms of thinking through proposals and their ramifications and then leave it behind for at leas some part of the week

I have a feeling the policies being pursued will cost more in the long run than they will save in the short term but of course that will all be glossed over by the powers that be with numerous press releases/expert groups/talking shops and jobs for the cronies and the usual bluster etc etc

But it's a terrible shame. The voluntary work was what made the Irish educational system special for decades. It's slowly being eroded.

amacca

Agreed.

But thats the way its going unfortunately. Perhaps it will be valued when it has to be paid for.

acequion

For some time now I have been opposed to the voluntary nature of extra curricular and feel that it's high time that teachers en masse stopped doing it.Again our weak unions are at fault. They should impose a ban. For me the huge problem is the exploitation of the younger teachers in insecure positions and therefore unable to say no. With an outright ban these teachers would be protected.It infuriates me when I see permanent teachers jumping on the extra curricular bandwagon. What hope for those in insecure positions who would prefer not to but just don't have the choice!

I appreciate that some teachers see their extra curric as a hobby. I appreciate too the enormous contribution to sports,the blooding of young talent and as a passionate supporter of my county on the national stage, I don't advocate withdrawal of services lightly,but it is patently obvious that it is not only unappreciated,but expected,even demanded. We are the only country in the world with such a widespread voluntary culture in extra curricular activities. In many countries a small stipend is paid. Time to do that here,in my opinion.

And sorry to drag the thread off topic but it relates to CP hours. Goodwill could have been shown by the Govt and a portion of the hours deducted for extra curricular /co curricular activities. When that didn't happen the union should have banned participation in them and still could.

But they won't because they're useless!

evolving_doors

acequion wrote: »

For some time now I have been opposed to the voluntary nature of extra curricular and feel that it's high time that teachers en masse stopped doing it.Again our weak unions are at fault. They should impose a ban. For me the huge problem is the exploitation of the younger teachers in insecure positions and therefore unable to say no. With an outright ban these teachers would be protected.It infuriates me when I see permanent teachers jumping on the extra curricular bandwagon. What hope for those in insecure positions who would prefer not to but just don't have the choice!

I appreciate that some teachers see their extra curric as a hobby. I appreciate too the enormous contribution to sports,the blooding of young talent and as a passionate supporter of my county on the national stage, I don't advocate withdrawal of services lightly,but it is patently obvious that it is not only unappreciated,but expected,even demanded. We are the only country in the world with such a widespread voluntary culture in extra curricular activities. In many countries a small stipend is paid. Time to do that here,in my opinion.

And sorry to drag the thread off topic but it relates to CP hours. Goodwill could have been shown by the Govt and a portion of the hours deducted for extra curricular /co curricular activities. When that didn't happen the union should have banned participation in them and still could.

But they won't because they're useless!

Extra Curricular has nothing to do with the Union. If you undertake voluntary work of your own volition that is outside your contract then how can a union say you shouldn't do it. (Of course I know there's a fair few who do it just to stay employed for the next term).

rainbowtrout

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Extra Curricular has nothing to do with the Union. If you undertake voluntary work of your own volition that is outside your contract then how can a union say you shouldn't do it. (Of course I know there's a fair few who do it just to stay employed for the next term).

Well If they want to circumvent the idea of voluntary work and hammer home how much teachers do for free then they could go down the route of work to rule. That surely would cover extra curricular

ethical

Fair enough,many teachers do voluntary work in the form of extra curricular be it debating,basketball,gaelic and soccer or indeed preparing for the young scientist competition and this is expected to continue year after year by some principals.The problem is that principals do not understand that for example after training a team it may take quite a considerable amount of time to arrange a match,with the teacher using their own phone and their own time.If this did not happen there would be very few games played in our schools.........and of course CP Hours take precedent over the training/coaching slot after school.CP hours are lowering morale to unprecedented levels.......but sure we are alright won't we be getting €1000.00 pre tax over the next few years and that should keep us doing the same sh1t that we have been doing since Seanie,Fingers and AJ Chopra fcuked up our economy.

acequion

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Extra Curricular has nothing to do with the Union. If you undertake voluntary work of your own volition that is outside your contract then how can a union say you shouldn't do it. (Of course I know there's a fair few who do it just to stay employed for the next term).

It's nowhere near as simple as that. Extra curricular is now a huge part of school life,as important in some schools as curricular, and for many,there is no question of volition. So high time it became a union issue.

As you say it's the difference between being employed or not for many,probably most of the 30% who are casualised, and also many extra curricular are in fact co-curricular such as extra classes during the lunch hour, coaching for the orals,coordinating subject meetings,that sort of thing. But because it's voluntary I feel that it should be pulled now before it's too late and becomes foisted upon all teachers as a mandatory part of the duties.Note one of the points in the JC proposals that teachers take on the coordinating of the SLARs in turns! The unions are the only ones who could intervene by issuing a directive. But they won't because as I already said,they're too useless. And also because of opposition from teachers many of whom are attached to their extra curric. Which would be grand,even nice in a free world where others weren't under pressure to follow suit.

katydid

acequion wrote: »

It's nowhere near as simple as that. Extra curricular is now a huge part of school life,as important in some schools as curricular, and for many,there is no question of volition. So high time it became a union issue.

As you say it's the difference between being employed or not for many,probably most of the 30% who are casualised, and also many extra curricular are in fact co-curricular such as extra classes during the lunch hour, coaching for the orals,coordinating subject meetings,that sort of thing. But because it's voluntary I feel that it should be pulled now before it's too late and becomes foisted upon all teachers as a mandatory part of the duties.Note one of the points in the JC proposals that teachers take on the coordinating of the SLARs in turns! The unions are the only ones who could intervene by issuing a directive. But they won't because as I already said,they're too useless. And also because of opposition from teachers many of whom are attached to their extra curric. Which would be grand,even nice in a free world where others weren't under pressure to follow suit.

If you are permanent, of course there is a matter of volition when it comes to anything beyond your timetabled hours, and the extras imposed on us. If you are not permanent, there is the blackmail element, of course, and there's little anyone can do about that.

As you say, it certainly should become a union issue, to at least give some protection to the vulnerable, but I also feel that permanent teachers should lead the way. Often they are the backbone of these activities, and if they put their foot down, ideally with union backing, it will be much easier for the more vulnerable to follow.

I often wonder what would happen if teachers refused to be class tutors. The entire system depends on this being done on a voluntary basis (although some people don't even realise they can refuse), and it certainly would show the government how much teachers do if, suddenly, this administrative job were not being done.

katydid

ethical wrote: »

Fair enough,many teachers do voluntary work in the form of extra curricular be it debating,basketball,gaelic and soccer or indeed preparing for the young scientist competition and this is expected to continue year after year by some principals.The problem is that principals do not understand that for example after training a team it may take quite a considerable amount of time to arrange a match,with the teacher using their own phone and their own time.If this did not happen there would be very few games played in our schools.........and of course CP Hours take precedent over the training/coaching slot after school.CP hours are lowering morale to unprecedented levels.......but sure we are alright won't we be getting €1000.00 pre tax over the next few years and that should keep us doing the same sh1t that we have been doing since Seanie,Fingers and AJ Chopra fcuked up our economy.

Oh the principals understand very well. Most of them have been through the same thing themselves. It's just that they don't particularly care; extra-curricular stuff makes the school look good, and if people are willing to do it as well as Teachers' Detention and unpaid supervision and substitution, why would they stop them?

The impetus has to come from the teachers.

katydid

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Well If they want to circumvent the idea of voluntary work and hammer home how much teachers do for free then they could go down the route of work to rule. That surely would cover extra curricular

Yes, and acting as class tutor. 22 hours a week class contact, 1 hour teacher's detention, unpaid S&S, and home.

endacl

jjdonegal wrote: »

They are quite simply infuriating as they are pure pointless.
What do people do for their individualised hours?

Stare out the window if I've forgotten my kindle.

byhookorbycrook

I am a primary teacher. We do an awful lot of stuff outside Croke Park, ironically enough most of our Cumann na mBunscol training and games. I do feel we have been too soft in allowing things like quizzes, sacraments, debating, sport, school fundraisers, our own CPD not to be covered in these hours.But what do we do? Playing matches in school time means the teacher has to split their classes and leave work for them. Our teams may be drawn from 8 different classes, so you are then looking at disrupting all those classes. Yes, we could refuse to do it in our own time, but the DES knows we won't place our children in that position of losing out, we are our own worst enemies.

deiseindublin

Maybe primary school en masse should decide not to enter C n mB.

endacl

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

I am a primary teacher. We do an awful lot of stuff outside Croke Park, ironically enough most of our Cumann na mBunscol training and games. I do feel we have been too soft in allowing things like quizzes, sacraments, debating, sport, school fundraisers, our own CPD not to be covered in these hours.But what do we do? Playing matches in school time means the teacher has to split their classes and leave work for them. Our teams may be drawn from 8 different classes, so you are then looking at disrupting all those classes. Yes, we could refuse to do it in our own time, but the DES knows we won't place our children in that position of losing out, we are our own worst enemies.

I've gone from 2-3 hours per week 'extra stuff' pre Croke Park, to walking out on the second my time is up. I used to do concerts (music teacher), extra classes, turning up for student exams, etc. A lot if my colleagues have done the same.

heldel00

endacl wrote: »

I've gone from 2-3 hours per week 'extra stuff' pre Croke Park, to walking out on the second my time is up. I used to do concerts (music teacher), extra classes, turning up for student exams, etc. A lot if my colleagues have done the same.

Unfortunately this is what needs to be done en masse. How else are DES to know that we not be walked over.
Won't happen though because for every teacher willing to down tools there are dozens of NQTs chomping at the bit to impress principals.

deiseindublin

I posted elsewhere on this but with there will be more after school meetings along with CP if the new JC is brought in. Maybe some centres already have a half day but a good few of these will be gone if you do!

katydid

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

I am a primary teacher. We do an awful lot of stuff outside Croke Park, ironically enough most of our Cumann na mBunscol training and games. I do feel we have been too soft in allowing things like quizzes, sacraments, debating, sport, school fundraisers, our own CPD not to be covered in these hours.But what do we do? Playing matches in school time means the teacher has to split their classes and leave work for them. Our teams may be drawn from 8 different classes, so you are then looking at disrupting all those classes. Yes, we could refuse to do it in our own time, but the DES knows we won't place our children in that position of losing out, we are our own worst enemies.

The children may lose out on the short term, but a demoralised and overworked teaching cohort will do no good for children on the long term. CP was a slap in the face for those who do all that extra work, and it should be met in kind. It doesn't have to be for ever - it could, for example, be withdrawn totally for one academic year, to let the Dept. (and the public) feel its effect.