Croke Park hours: detention for adults

katydid

acequion wrote: »

For some time now I have been opposed to the voluntary nature of extra curricular and feel that it's high time that teachers en masse stopped doing it.Again our weak unions are at fault. They should impose a ban. For me the huge problem is the exploitation of the younger teachers in insecure positions and therefore unable to say no. With an outright ban these teachers would be protected.It infuriates me when I see permanent teachers jumping on the extra curricular bandwagon. What hope for those in insecure positions who would prefer not to but just don't have the choice!

I appreciate that some teachers see their extra curric as a hobby. I appreciate too the enormous contribution to sports,the blooding of young talent and as a passionate supporter of my county on the national stage, I don't advocate withdrawal of services lightly,but it is patently obvious that it is not only unappreciated,but expected,even demanded. We are the only country in the world with such a widespread voluntary culture in extra curricular activities. In many countries a small stipend is paid. Time to do that here,in my opinion.

And sorry to drag the thread off topic but it relates to CP hours. Goodwill could have been shown by the Govt and a portion of the hours deducted for extra curricular /co curricular activities. When that didn't happen the union should have banned participation in them and still could.

But they won't because they're useless!

Have you lobbied your school rep to have this debated at executive level, or at congress? It's all very well to say "the union should", but we are the union, we don't have to wait around for "the union" to do something.

The reality is that there wouldn't be huge support for it. So many teachers are not prepared to give up doing this voluntary work, because they don't want the students to lose out, and the Dept. know this very well. There is an increasing number seeing sense, and realising that short term loss to their students would be long time benefit, in bringing the government to its senses, but not the critical mass needed. Try putting it forward as a motion for congress and I bet you it will fall at the first hurdle.

(Now isn't it a good job I agree with you on this issue. Imagine if I held a different view, one you didn't like...)

MacGyver007

The Lansdowne Road "Agreement" (LRA) extends the existence of the 33 CP hours (and 43 S&S hours introduced in HRA )from June 2016 until September 2018. Both ASTI and TUI have called for a NO vote. Ballot papers on LRA will issue from Monday week. Send a clear message to the DES; vote NO to LRA.

mirrorwall14

MacGyver007 wrote: »

The Lansdowne Road "Agreement" (LRA) extends the existence of the 33 CP hours (and 43 S&S hours introduced in HRA )from June 2016 until September 2018. Both ASTI and TUI have called for a NO vote. Ballot papers on LRA will issue from Monday week. Send a clear message to the DES; vote NO to LRA.

This has to be the biggest point in favour of a no vote and tbh I think this would be one thing that teachers might keep voting no to even if they are asked multiple times. The idea that we are within potentially the last year of croke parks is an enormous reason to vote no to landsdowne road. I keep telling this to people and you see the eyes light up at the potential end to 'dentention'!

katydid

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

This has to be the biggest point in favour of a no vote and tbh I think this would be one thing that teachers might keep voting no to even if they are asked multiple times. The idea that we are within potentially the last year of croke parks is an enormous reason to vote no to landsdowne road. I keep telling this to people and you see the eyes light up at the potential end to 'dentention'!

I'm a member of TUI, and I know that a lot of my colleagues voted yes in the past because of fear of the consequences of the unknown - immediate layoffs were definitely on the cards for some teachers; and then there was the financial unknown - that if we didn't vote for this, there would be open season on our salaries and we could end up worse off.

I think now that the reality of what we voted for has sunk in, things will be different. The sheer waste of time, and the disrespect that goes with it by refusing to recognise work done, is seen and felt in reality.

evolving_doors

katydid wrote: »

Have you lobbied your school rep to have this debated at executive level, or at congress? It's all very well to say "the union should", but we are the union, we don't have to wait around for "the union" to do something.

The reality is that there wouldn't be huge support for it. So many teachers are not prepared to give up doing this voluntary work, because they don't want the students to lose out, and the Dept. know this very well. There is an increasing number seeing sense, and realising that short term loss to their students would be long time benefit, in bringing the government to its senses, but not the critical mass needed. Try putting it forward as a motion for congress and I bet you it will fall at the first hurdle.

(Now isn't it a good job I agree with you on this issue. Imagine if I held a different view, one you didn't like...)

Please don't bring disagreements across from other threads, thanks.
MOD

evolving_doors

acequion wrote: »

It's nowhere near as simple as that. Extra curricular is now a huge part of school life,as important in some schools as curricular, and for many,there is no question of volition. So high time it became a union issue.

As you say it's the difference between being employed or not for many,probably most of the 30% who are casualised, and also many extra curricular are in fact co-curricular such as extra classes during the lunch hour, coaching for the orals,coordinating subject meetings,that sort of thing. But because it's voluntary I feel that it should be pulled now before it's too late and becomes foisted upon all teachers as a mandatory part of the duties.Note one of the points in the JC proposals that teachers take on the coordinating of the SLARs in turns! The unions are the only ones who could intervene by issuing a directive. But they won't because as I already said,they're too useless. And also because of opposition from teachers many of whom are attached to their extra curric. Which would be grand,even nice in a free world where others weren't under pressure to follow suit.

This is the nub of it really, there are quite a few teachers who's way of getting any sort of satisifaction out of the job is Extra curricular (whether right or wrong!). For this reason the Union will NEVER advocate a ban on EC because it would split the Union (and also a lot of peripatetic teachers/coaches would be in Limbo).
Don't get me wrong though I'd be all for a ban on EC for a while as it would show the country what teachers do and often get Zero appreciation for.

Does anyone remember the last time there was a work to rule (2000-2001 ish).. was EC included in this ?

evolving_doors

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

This has to be the biggest point in favour of a no vote and tbh I think this would be one thing that teachers might keep voting no to even if they are asked multiple times. The idea that we are within potentially the last year of croke parks is an enormous reason to vote no to landsdowne road. I keep telling this to people and you see the eyes light up at the potential end to 'dentention'!

Ya to hell with it, either FEMPI is in place or it isn't. They'll probably repackage it under a different name though under the guises of a 'gradual easing' on CP/HR/Landsdown Road... and promise 100's of more teaching jobs! (Which as we know will be absorbed by part timers in a heartbeat)

byhookorbycrook

deiseindublin wrote: »

Maybe primary school en masse should decide not to enter C n mB.

Maybe, maybe the same could be said for CPD and for sacraments, but it's not going to happen any time soon.

katydid

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Please don't bring disagreements across from other threads, thanks.
MOD

Sorry, I just had to get my point in. I feel strongly about censorship. Zip now.

Please Don't comment on MOD warnings on-thread either.
Thanks.
MOD

Alex Meier

MacGyver007 wrote: »

The Lansdowne Road "Agreement" (LRA) extends the existence of the 33 CP hours (and 43 S&S hours introduced in HRA )from June 2016 until September 2018. Both ASTI and TUI have called for a NO vote. Ballot papers on LRA will issue from Monday week. Send a clear message to the DES; vote NO to LRA.

It won't make a shred of difference.

If you'll vote NO the ballot will be re-run until you vote YES.

It would have been better never to voted YES to Croke Park in the first place.

The genie is out of the bottle and Croke Park hours are here to stay.

acequion

Ah come on no need to be so cynical. Of course people should never have voted for them but the fact is they DID so no point in looking back.Onwards we must go.

A lot of teachers are beginning to see the light so I wouldn't be as negative about it as you are.Keep campaigning for a No!

gaiscioch

Has anybody here had a CP day cancelled at the last minute? We had, even though we all showed up for the day and had made arrangements to facilitate this. We ended up being sent home after 30 minutes.

The school now wants us to do those hours on another day, while still counting that initial day as a school day. The day they want us to do it would constitute spending far more time in school than my classes on that day would require. As we all showed up for the initial day, and the fault lies entirely with their side, I don't believe there is any justification for in effect taking two days from us for what should be a single day. I would be prepared to come in as normal and be available to do my normal classes but I suspect I would be the only one unless there is a precedent.

solerina

gaiscioch wrote: »

Has anybody here had a CP day cancelled at the last minute? We had, even though we all showed up for the day and had made arrangements to facilitate this. We ended up being sent home after 30 minutes.

The school now wants us to do those hours on another day, while still counting that initial day as a school day. The day they want us to do it would constitute spending far more time in school than my classes on that day would require. As we all showed up for the initial day, and the fault lies entirely with their side, I don't believe there is any justification for in effect taking two days from us for what should be a single day. I would be prepared to come in as normal and be available to do my normal classes but I suspect I would be the only one unless there is a precedent.

Sounds very strange, we have never had anything like this happen. Have you contacted the union, useless as they are they may be able to advise you as to what should happen !!!

katydid

gaiscioch wrote: »

Has anybody here had a CP day cancelled at the last minute? We had, even though we all showed up for the day and had made arrangements to facilitate this. We ended up being sent home after 30 minutes.

The school now wants us to do those hours on another day, while still counting that initial day as a school day. The day they want us to do it would constitute spending far more time in school than my classes on that day would require. As we all showed up for the initial day, and the fault lies entirely with their side, I don't believe there is any justification for in effect taking two days from us for what should be a single day. I would be prepared to come in as normal and be available to do my normal classes but I suspect I would be the only one unless there is a precedent.

If people go along with it, there's not much you can do. Surely you can go to the union, if you can't get people together to tell them that it's not on.

Alex Meier

gaiscioch wrote: »

Has anybody here had a CP day cancelled at the last minute? We had, even though we all showed up for the day and had made arrangements to facilitate this. We ended up being sent home after 30 minutes.

The school now wants us to do those hours on another day, while still counting that initial day as a school day. The day they want us to do it would constitute spending far more time in school than my classes on that day would require. As we all showed up for the initial day, and the fault lies entirely with their side, I don't believe there is any justification for in effect taking two days from us for what should be a single day. I would be prepared to come in as normal and be available to do my normal classes but I suspect I would be the only one unless there is a precedent.

Absolutely no case for management to rearrange this meeting.

acequion

Alex Meier wrote: »

Absolutely no case for management to rearrange this meeting.

None whatsoever. Dig yer heels in en masse. To give in would create a dangerous precedent.

spurious

gaiscioch wrote: »

Has anybody here had a CP day cancelled at the last minute? We had, even though we all showed up for the day and had made arrangements to facilitate this. We ended up being sent home after 30 minutes.

The school now wants us to do those hours on another day, while still counting that initial day as a school day. The day they want us to do it would constitute spending far more time in school than my classes on that day would require. As we all showed up for the initial day, and the fault lies entirely with their side, I don't believe there is any justification for in effect taking two days from us for what should be a single day. I would be prepared to come in as normal and be available to do my normal classes but I suspect I would be the only one unless there is a precedent.

You all made yourselves available for those hours. The fact that you were 'let off' doing them was not your choice.
Stick together on this one. Under no circumstances re-do those hours.

Alex Meier

spurious wrote: »

You all made yourselves available for those hours. The fact that you were 'let off' doing them was not your choice.
Stick together on this one. Under no circumstances re-do those hours.

If I were forced to do them again I'd probably not turn up for work on the day of a 3 hour Croke Park PTM

evolving_doors

To heck with that.

Does the Dept. actually have a stated position somewhere if this scenario arises:
I doubt it.

Does the Union actually have a stated position somewhere if this scenario arises:
I doubt it.

Inevitably it'll come down to the school making the call (like so many of the other CP scenarios mentioned here). And in the spirit of things "with the consensus of the staff" should still apply.

To my mind it's the same as when schools ask non-union members to make themselves available for work during a strike... if the school is closed they still get paid.
You all made yourselves VERY available to work so it should count...

Same as snow days... once a certain amount turn up then they can't take it away from you and make you do it over the easter.

Time to badger the school union rep Gaisioch.

What's the big deal about this CP day anyway.... talking about what exactly? I bet it had little to do with actual pedagogy anyway.

Also, how could they count the day as a school day if there were no students in school?

ethical

Strangely I have come across a similar situation where a friend of a friend was supposed to have a CP day (6 hours) and it didnt happen.Seemingly the Principal admitted to getting it wrong and .......then told the staff that if they were to assist at some community evening that it would do instead.Unfortunately the staff are up in arms over this as the community event will go on all evening with a finishing time of midnight and it will happen on a Friday night now. They are compelled to attend or loose their CP hours.This to me is unbelievable.They should tell their Principal to stick the CP hours you know where!

man_no_plan

ethical wrote: »

.They should tell their Principal to stick the CP hours you know where!

Can they not politely talk it out? I don't care what your principal is like they are entitled to some respect.

As for the cancelled hours from memory there I a precedent where if hours were scheduled to take place, such as on a snow day, and they don't the they don't have to be rescheduled. Was it around the strike time?? I wouldn't do it and I i messed up I wouldn't try to make others suffer for it.


I would say that PTM's are an exception as there's legislation around reporting to parents etc and its generally accepted I think that its a good thing to meet parents once a year even I time is limited.

katydid

man_no_plan wrote: »

Can they not politely talk it out? I don't care what your principal is like they are entitled to some respect.

As for the cancelled hours from memory there I a precedent where if hours were scheduled to take place, such as on a snow day, and they don't the they don't have to be rescheduled. Was it around the strike time?? I wouldn't do it and I i messed up I wouldn't try to make others suffer for it.


I would say that PTM's are an exception as there's legislation around reporting to parents etc and its generally accepted I think that its a good thing to meet parents once a year even I time is limited.

First you try polite. If that doesn't work, you have to take a firmer line.