Interested in getting a Wolfdog (or similar breed) pup.

JonesyIrl

I'm really interested in this breed because of the obvious wolf traits mixed with the companionship of a dog. I'm 17 and play rugby for my school, I train daily, I enjoy hiking quite a lot. My immediate family owns 2 property's. Our house in Dublin (not in the city, bordering Kildare) has about an acre worth of garden, my step-dads house in Wicklow is situated in Glen of Imaal Co. Wicklow, meaning there is a lot of open space. I hike in the Wicklow mountains regularly and I think a dog such as a Wolfdog or like breeds would be an awesome companion on my hikes.

As I said previously I'm fit and strong and would like a dog I can wrestle (play) with and also a dog that could spend a day out hiking in the Wicklow mountains. I currently own 3 dogs an Irish Sheepdog, a greyhound - Irish Wolfhound mix and a stafford labrador cross. All 3 rescue dogs and the last sadly on her last legs. All 3 are trained and very very friendly and I would love to raise a dog like a Wolfdog.

If anyone has any opinions on Wolfdog's or any other suggestions please comment, and if anyone knows where I could purchase a Wolfdog or similar do the same, thanks!

ShaShaBear

JonesyIrl wrote: »

I'm really interested in this breed because of the obvious wolf traits mixed with the companionship of a dog. I'm 17 and play rugby for my school, I train daily, I enjoy hiking quite a lot. My immediate family owns 2 property's. Our house in Dublin (not in the city, bordering Kildare) has about an acre worth of garden, my step-dads house in Wicklow is situated in Glen of Imaal Co. Wicklow, meaning there is a lot of open space. I hike in the Wicklow mountains regularly and I think a dog such as a Wolfdog or like breeds would be an awesome companion on my hikes.

As I said previously I'm fit and strong and would like a dog I can wrestle (play) with and also a dog that could spend a day out hiking in the Wicklow mountains. I currently own 3 dogs an Irish Sheepdog, a greyhound - Irish Wolfhound mix and a stafford labrador cross. All 3 rescue dogs and the last sadly on her last legs. All 3 are trained and very very friendly and I would love to raise a dog like a Wolfdog.

If anyone has any opinions on Wolfdog's or any other suggestions please comment, and if anyone knows where I could purchase a Wolfdog or similar do the same, thanks!

I have absolutely no idea what you mean by Wolfdog. I have never heard of it. I assume you mean some breed of sled-dog?

DBB

Hmmm... I've met a couple of Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs... beautiful looking dogs (and they are dogs for all intents and purposes... their wolf ancestry is seriously watered down at this stage, by necessity), and although friendly towards me as a stranger, their owners were at pains to point out that these are a difficult, difficult dog to own in many ways... serious predatory drive (think about this in a rural setting), aggression towards other dogs despite extensive socialisation, rather aloof towards strangers/visitors, and rather independent and stubborn in many ways.
I'd encourage you to be extremely careful where you source such a dog, because they have tended to attract, well, the less reputable type of breeder.
I *think* (stand open to correction) that boards user Wibbs has one of the wolfdog breeds, might be worthwhile dropping him a PM? I can tell you my 2nd-hand thoughts about them, but you really need to talk to someone who has lived with one to get a real idea of what you're getting into.

Knine

I would be very very careful OP. I was at a meeting late last week & these breeds & their handling was mentioned. Judges were going over the dogs & almost losing a hand. Under FCI Show Rules we are getting a lot more of these breeds appearing in the show ring. Many of them not being bred for their wonderful temperaments. These will be the same dogs or their offspring up for sale.

DBB

Another thing to bear in mind is that they are subject to the Restricted Breed legislation because they are a strain of GSD.
Now, it might be that you've never run into a problem in this regard before with, say, your Staff x, but bear in mind that a Wolfdog is going to attract a hell of a lot more attention than a little Staff, good and bad. The chances of you coming to the warden's attention, I would think are a fair bit higher when you've a Wolfdog. Just worth considering as you muse on the pros and cons.

Knine

I think the OP may mean the Cezlosvakian Wolfdog. There are several of them being shown at the moment. They are a fair bit bigger then a German Shepard & look very like a wolf. I may have spelt that wrong!

DBB

Knine wrote: »

I think the OP may mean the Cezlosvakian Wolfdog. There are several of them being shown at the moment. They are a fair bit bigger then a German Shepard & look very like a wolf. I may have spelt that wrong!

Yes, but weren't they originally "created" by crossing the GSD to various wolf species? With time, there was more GSD added to the mix to water down the *difficult* wolf traits. Either way, they are a strain of GSD because they originated from the breed.

kylith

OP, you do not want a Czech wolfdog; they are a dog for someone with many, many years of experience with taxing breeds. There are many breeds of dog which would be suitable for what you are looking for - e.g. sled dogs and hunting breeds.

Knine

DBB wrote: »

Yes, but weren't they originally "created" by crossing the GSD to various wolf species? With time, there was more GSD added to the mix to water down the *difficult* wolf traits. Either way, they are a strain of GSD because they originated from the breed.

Not so much for the type of Wolfdog above but we also now have the East European Shepard which is basically a larger type of German Shepard with a lot of undercoat. Then there is the White Swiss Shepard. Both of these have a lot of Shepard in them & could easily be confused. The Chek Wolfdog looks very different & very much like a wolf. I have seen these at shows a lot lately. They have a different look to a Shepard & would definitely get the attention of the Dog Warden

Old Perry

Intertesting topic. they are beautiful looking dog alright. just out of interest why is the dog warden being mentioned? what would the concerns be ?

DBB

Knine wrote: »

The Chek Wolfdog looks very different & very much like a wolf.

They do, but the breed originates from a cross of wolf and GSD. As does the East European Shepherd and Swiss Shepherd.
Sorry if I'm being pedantic , but there's no getting away from this, that the Czech Wolfdogs were created from GSDs, and are therefore legally held as being a strain of them, which makes them subject to the RB laws in this country.

ShaShaBear

Old Perry wrote: »

Intertesting topic. they are beautiful looking dog alright. just out of interest why is the dog warden being mentioned? what would the concerns be ?

I imagine the concern would be that it looks like many other sled dogs, although more like a wild wolf - someone walking a wild wolf might just attract the attention of an animal control officer for a multitude of reasons

Consider me educated - I had no idea there was a such thing. But they sound like way more than the average handful!

endacl

Question...

Is it the breed you like, OP? Because they're pretty hard to even define as a breed, especially in terms of temperament. Or, do you like the idea of having a 'wolf dog'?

If you have some romantic notion of wandering the mountains with your half wolf companion, I'd suggest that might not be the best reason to base a choice if breed on.

Knine

DBB wrote: »

They do, but the breed originates from a cross of wolf and GSD. As does the East European Shepherd and Swiss Shepherd.
Sorry if I'm being pedantic , but there's no getting away from this, that the Czech Wolfdogs were created from GSDs, and are therefore legally held as being a strain of them, which makes them subject to the RB laws in this country.

No I know exactly what you mean. I meant the wolfdog is not very Shepard like compared to the other 2. But if you were stopped you could produce your registered papers which would state the breed. I know someone that did this with the warden for their American Stafford which the warden assured them was definitely a Pit Bull.

DBB

Old Perry wrote: »

Intertesting topic. they are beautiful looking dog alright. just out of interest why is the dog warden being mentioned? what would the concerns be ?

All strains and crossbreeds of the 10 listed breeds on our Restricted Breed legislation must wear an effective muzzle, and at all times be on-lead and under the control of a capable handler over 16 years of age when in a public place.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1998/si/442/made/en/print

This doesn't bother some people, but it does bother others who might avoid breeds/crosses/strains on the list due to the extra legislation and potetnial hassle surrounding them.
The enforcement of the law varies from county to county, but there is a definite increase in enforcement in the past few years in many areas. As I said, if a dog like a Wolfdog puts a foot wrong, they're more likely to be reported to the warden... in fact, I would not be in the slightest surprised to hear that wardens regularly get calls from members of the public saying that there's a wolf in the local park!

DBB

endacl wrote: »

If you have some romantic notion of wandering the mountains with your half wolf companion, I'd suggest that might not be the best reason to base a choice if breed on.

This raises the point that a Wolfdog could never, ever be allowed off-lead on mountain walks, or anywhere there's even the remotest chance he'll come into contact with livestock. Huskies are renowned enough in this regard, the Wolfdogs would certainly be several steps above the Husky in terms of predatory drive!

Knine

DBB wrote: »

All strains and crossbreeds of the 10 listed breeds on our Restricted Breed legislation must wear an effective muzzle, and at all times be on-lead and under the control of a capable handler over 16 years of age when in a public place.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1998/si/442/made/en/print

This doesn't bother some people, but it does bother others who might avoid breeds/crosses/strains on the list due to the extra legislation and potetnial hassle surrounding them.
The enforcement of the law varies from county to county, but there is a definite increase in enforcement in the past few years in many areas. As I said, if a dog like a Wolfdog puts a foot wrong, they're more likely to be reported to the warden... in fact, I would not be in the slightest surprised to hear that wardens regularly get calls from members of the public saying that there's a wolf in the local park!

I'm not sure if you have seen one of the C Wolfdogs but yes I could well understand a member of the public thinking they were a wolf. They really are very wolf like looking but are now a breed in their own right & registered as such by the IKC. The specimens I seen were also very large & seemed not to be bothered by the other dogs.

Wibbs

I had one. Died of old age. Would I get another? Unlikely. Why? For a start you'd have to avoid the wolf dog hybrids out there. The vast majority are UK lines and well dodgy. It would be a real lottery with what you'd get and could be very dangerous. The "breeders" going on about percentages are bullshít artists. Even with an F1 hybrid pure wolf and pure dog parents, some of the pups would be more "doggie" and some would be more "wolfie".

The official Wolfdog breeds? Again the majority are coming from the UK and very dubious breeding has been going on over there, to the degree that the European breeders and their clubs refused to sell breeding stock to them for quite a while. So last time I looked you'd have to go to mainland europe to source a good breeder. This will be very expensive and time consuming. 1000 quid plus for the pup is about the rate. Then the travel and vet costs.

Of the breeds available, you have the Czech and the Saarloos(the Lupo Italiano is illegal in private hands). The latter tend towards timidity as adults. You might get lucky, but I'd not even bother with one of them TBH. The Czech tend towards more forwardness. Sounds great but they're a lot more headstrong than any of the breeds you own. They're about the most headstrong of any breed IMH. You wouldn't know what hit you. These are not lap dogs. They can be real brutes and will test you on a near daily basis. When I read people saying there is no such thing as a dominant dog, I'd love them to hang out with a couple of headstrong Czech's for a while. Males being worse than females. As adolescents this behaviour peaks. It's why a lot of 18 month to two year olds end up in rescues or destroyed.
Play wrestling would be a very foolish practice to get into. You really don't want to ramp up their emotional state. It would be all fun and games until a bite occurred. And with an extremely high bite force, even a nip will hurt. I've a scar on one hand where a canine tooth went in the back and nearly came through to the palm and that was a warning nip, not an aggressive full on attack.

They're very independent as well as dependent. Sounds odd. What I mean is on the one hand they rely on you completely. These are pack animals. They can't be alone for long or will destroy your house. What happens when you go to college? Or want to go on holiday? When you move out etc? On the other hand they have much less of that "doggie wants to please human thing" going on. Recall is variable, even absent, it's certainly not very reliable. They are very clever animals and can be trained but are a harder prospect than most dogs. They get bored very quickly. Prey drive can be extremely high and smaller dogs and cats etc could be on the list of "I could eat that". They're also escape artists. Your land would need a high fence just to be sure. Not to the level you'd need for a pure wolf, but not far off. More expense. Oh and they could dig as an olympic sport. You won't have a garden for long. Food and resource guarding can be problem too. You'll almost certainly not be able to get medical insurance for one, so that could get expensive. They play extremely roughly so your other dogs might get hurt. It's not a big risk but it is there.

Oh and they tend to be long lived, so this is a big undertaking. All things being equal you buy one now and he or she would be around until you're in your 30's. My guy F3 wolf/dog hybrid nearly made it to 18 years of age. Hybrid vigour and all.

And in case someone comes in with "I know a guy with wolfdogs and they're great and just like any other dog", then they're not wolfdogs, they're usually husky crosses and german shepherd crosses. People see husky and think that's what wolves and wolfdogs look like. They don't.

TL;DR? I really wouldn't J. Too many variables and this ain't a Disney movie. If you were 35 and settled in one place, worked from home, had good experience of other large working breeds, an escape proof enclosure and a couple of other working breed dogs to keep it company, then maybe. At 17 with your basic "doggie"* dogs and a life ahead of you that could take you anywhere? No way man. Baaaad idea.

DBB

Knine wrote: »

I'm not sure if you have seen one of the C Wolfdogs but yes I could well understand a member of the public thinking they were a wolf. They really are very wolf like looking but are now a breed in their own right & registered as such by the IKC. The specimens I seen were also very large & seemed not to be bothered by the other dogs.

I met that specific breed over in Europe, not yet in Ireland.
The first one I met, I knew nothing about them at the time, didn't even know they existed... Whilst waiting to meet a student at the local university I saw one trotting towards me and I yelled at my friend "sweet jebus... it's a wolf!" His owner was the fella I was there to meet, so it meant I could bombard the poor fella with questions and spend some time with the dog... dog was very sweet-natured as it happens (he was hell-bent on curling up on my lap... not an easy feat for such a big dog!), but like the show dogs you're meeting, had been really well socialised with other dogs, and even then his owner said he wouldn't entirely trust him especially with smaller dogs.

Knine

Knine wrote: »

Not so much for the type of Wolfdog above but we also now have the East European Shepard which is basically a larger type of German Shepard with a lot of undercoat. Then there is the White Swiss Shepard. Both of these have a lot of Shepard in them & could easily be confused. The Chek Wolfdog looks very different & very much like a wolf. I have seen these at shows a lot lately. They have a different look to a Shepard & would definitely get the attention of the Dog Warden

You seem someone who loves dogs and knows much about them, so why do you keep saying Shepard when it is a shepherd?

syklops

JonesyIrl wrote: »

I'm really interested in this breed because of the obvious wolf traits mixed with the companionship of a dog. I'm 17 and play rugby for my school, I train daily, I enjoy hiking quite a lot. My immediate family owns 2 property's. Our house in Dublin (not in the city, bordering Kildare) has about an acre worth of garden, my step-dads house in Wicklow is situated in Glen of Imaal Co. Wicklow, meaning there is a lot of open space. I hike in the Wicklow mountains regularly and I think a dog such as a Wolfdog or like breeds would be an awesome companion on my hikes.

As I said previously I'm fit and strong and would like a dog I can wrestle (play) with and also a dog that could spend a day out hiking in the Wicklow mountains. I currently own 3 dogs an Irish Sheepdog, a greyhound - Irish Wolfhound mix and a stafford labrador cross. All 3 rescue dogs and the last sadly on her last legs. All 3 are trained and very very friendly and I would love to raise a dog like a Wolfdog.

If anyone has any opinions on Wolfdog's or any other suggestions please comment, and if anyone knows where I could purchase a Wolfdog or similar do the same, thanks!

A friend of mine who is a game keeper has one and its a fantastic dog. However I would say I would wait until you leave school/college. Yes they are great companions but they do not deal with being alone for long periods. My friend is with his pretty much every waking minute.

Another friend of mine has one and his is a serial escape artist. Again, my friend spends all his time with him, apart from when he is in work. He regular gets a phone call from the owner of his local pub to say the dog was in the pub "looking for him". This was in dog-friendly Czech Republic. Ireland is much less friendly to dogs and a so called "dangerous breed" escaping and going for a wander would not get as nice a treatment.

I would really advise against it until you are sure you can devote the time an animal like this needs.

DBB

Deleted User wrote: »

You seem someone who loves dogs and knows much about them, so why do you keep saying Shepard when it is a shepherd?

Give it a rest.
This is not the English Grammar Forum, and even if it was, you'd be out of line.
Do not reply to this post on-thread.
Thanks,
DBB

Knine

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You seem someone who loves dogs and knows much about them, so why do you keep saying Shepard when it is a shepherd?

I typing on a new device & for some reason it keeos changing my spelling. But jez I did not know my love of dogs or anything else depended on my spelling!

Wibbs

DBB wrote: »

Yes, but weren't they originally "created" by crossing the GSD to various wolf species? With time, there was more GSD added to the mix to water down the *difficult* wolf traits. Either way, they are a strain of GSD because they originated from the breed.

No the list doesn't apply to them as they are seen within the EU as a separate breed of dog. The original lines were bred from Carpathian wolves and Czech shepherds. Oh and the wolf bloodlines were being introduced back into the main breed up until the early 1980's.

Wolf phenotype seems to follow the genotype quite strongly. IE the more wolfie they look the more wolfie they act. Given that since the breed got into the public the wolfie look is what sells and they are bred accordingly, I would suspect that the wolf temperament is stronger now than in the past. The Czech security forces bred them originally for border patrol and mountain rescue(and the Italians still use them for that) and bred them for tractability and robustness. All pups/dogs showing aggressive or more wolfie behaviour were mercilessly destroyed. Early photos of the breed look less wolfie than they do today. Today the look is what's selling. Which is a worry. I suspect some of the Italian breeders are adding in more "wild" blood… Some look a lot more like an actual wolf than a standard Czech WD and nothing at all like a German Shepherd. More seem to have the twitchiness and timidity of wolves too. Not good.

DBB

Wibbs wrote: »

These are not lap dogs.

DBB wrote: »

(he was hell-bent on curling up on my lap...

Morto for the one I met! :pac:

I fairness though, I was pretty powerless to stop him. It was funny because I didn't feel at all threatened by him, but once he had decided he was climbing onto my lap, that was that.

Knine

DBB wrote: »

Morto for the one I met! :pac:

I fairness though, I was pretty powerless to stop him. It was funny because I didn't feel at all threatened by him, but once he had decided he was climbing onto my lap, that was that.

It is not just the wolf dogs we have to worry about. There seems to be lots of new breeds appearing & at the ringcraft classes some are showing very unreliable temperaments, hence it was mentioned at last weeks meeting that judges may be getting training relating to how to safely examine these breeds. It is only a matter of time before people start breeding & selling them here.

DBB

Wibbs wrote: »

No the list doesn't apply to them as they are seen within the EU as a separate breed of dog. The original lines were bred from Carpathian wolves and Czech shepherds.

No, I know they're a breed in their own right, but the problem is that if a warden wants to (and they have), they will go looking for an RB connection, and they will make that GSD connection with the wolfdogs. If there's a whiff of RB in a dog's ancestry, the wardens will consider it a strain of that breed.
This was illustrated clearly to me after talking to the local wardens here who had considered prosecuting owners of BSDs, but after a bit of research, "try as they might", they discovered that the BSD pre-dates the GSD so therefore could not be considered a strain of the GSD.
The Dublin county wardens, however, do issue warnings under the RB legisltation to owners of BSDs, rightly or wrongly (wrongly it would seem), but I'm not aware of them successfully prosecuting such a case against a BSD owner who stood their ground.

Wibbs

Oh they can be extremely affectionate. More emotional than many breeds, but it can go both ways too. If I was sourcing one I'd be taking a long trip to Eastern European breeders. No way would I be looking in the UK, unless some new good breeders have come along? Some French and Italian breeders have raised eyebrows too. Yea I'd be going to the source myself. The addition of the wolf genetics also seems to make them more variable as a breed. I've met some that were much more like an easygoing GSD, while others were real thugs. They do need husky levels of exercise though. A knackered wolf is a happy wolf. Consider that wolves in the wild can go day after day after day for hundreds of miles. IIRC the record for a radio tracked wolf in Canada was 80 miles in 24 hours.

I

Knine

A Dublin Warden actually took a guy to court who I knew claiming he had a Pit Bull without a muzzle. The 'Pit Bull' was actually a pedigree Brindle Boxer who had a tail. This was before docking was illegal & almost all boxers were docked. It took a letter from a vet & tge IKC papers shown in court to have the case thrown out.

I wonder if the wolfdogs papers were shown would it be ok?

DBB

Knine wrote: »

I wonder if the wolfdogs papers were shown would it be ok?

Not if the warden considers them a strain of GSD! And because GSD is in their ancestry, you'd have your work cut out to convince the judge that they're not a strain, even though they're a breed in their own right.
It's the same with the Tosa category in the RB regulations... potentially a huge amount of dog breeds could be encapsulated in the Tosa category including all of the Mastiff breeds, evn St. Bernards... being a breed in its own right does not mean it isn't a strain.

DBB

Cassiedog5000, I have deleted 2 posts you've made on this thread, as advertising for or pushing your own business on other posters is not allowed, as per the forum charter.
You also resurrected a very old thread. Please don't do that again without very, very good reason.
Thanks,
DBB