Primary schools to get Tricolour for 1916 centenary

Nodin

recipio wrote: »

You will get up to a year in prison in the 'States for defacement of the flag so they take it seriously.
For such a cataclysmic change to the governance of this country would a referendum not have been in order in 1922. ? It would have spared us a lot of misery ever since. Just sayin'.

Referendum on.......?

vicwatson

Davy Keogh says hello

Wompa1

In the states for 4 years. No good can come from turning a piece of cloth into a symbol. It's not unique to the US, either. Personally, I think less is more. Put the flag in places of importance. Make it mean something.

It shouldn't be posted outside of schools.

Or f'kin car dealerships, apartment blocks, office blocks, hospitals blah blah blah etc. etc. etc.

riffmongous

RobertKK wrote: »

Here is what the Irish Times said:

The Times was very pro union at this time though, especially the editor, as you can see from the second quote where they talk about sending thousands of Irish, to their death, the numbers killed in the great war were far greater than those of the wars of independence, not to mention the lie regarding Home Rule at the end of the quote

The indo would also have been against them on account of Connolly

kneemos

riffmongous wrote: »

The Times was very pro union at this time though, especially the editor, as you can see from the second quote where they talk about sending thousands of Irish, to their death, the numbers killed in the great war were far greater than those of the wars of independence, not to mention the lie regarding Home Rule at the end of the quote

The indo would also have been against them on account of Connolly

If you're determined to believe what you want,what's the point of evidence?

riffmongous

kneemos wrote: »

If you're determined to believe what you want,what's the point of evidence?

What's wrong with pointing out the biased nature of a source? It's not exactly independent evidence

kneemos

riffmongous wrote: »

What's wrong with pointing out the biased nature of a source? It's not exactly independent evidence

You're assuming it's biased.

riffmongous

kneemos wrote: »

You're assuming it's biased.

Did you read the Times quote? Can you honestly say judging just even from the language used that you think it is not biased? Without even looking at the history of the editor

LeinsterDub

Chemical Byrne wrote: »

I'm sure the schools would be much more interested to see the money being squandered on this rubbish being spent on upgrading school builidngs and hiring a few extra SNAs.

Not sure you'd get much upgrading done for the price of a flag

Banjoxed

MakeEmLaugh wrote: »

They are going to be delivering copies of the 1916 Proclamation as well, aren't they?

I wonder how they will explain the part which says



The last I checked, their arms hadn't yet brought about a permanent National Government, representative of the whole people of Ireland.

Think the 'ra forgot the bit about cowardice, inhumanity and rapine when they were burying bodies in bogs.

kneemos

riffmongous wrote: »

Did you read the Times quote? Can you honestly say judging just even from the language used that you think it is not biased? Without even looking at the history of the editor

It sounds fairly biased,but still reflects the mood of the day.
It's generally accepted most people were against the rising .What you have is one or two reports claiming it wasn't universal,which in themselves may be biased.

masti123

MakeEmLaugh wrote: »

They are going to be delivering copies of the 1916 Proclamation as well, aren't they?

I wonder how they will explain the part which says



The last I checked, their arms hadn't yet brought about a permanent National Government, representative of the whole people of Ireland.

Exactly. Our leaders of 1916 fought for a 32 county, Socialist, Republic. Not this 26 county state that has been left in a miserable state by its ruling class. From corrupt politicians and bankers, widespread torture and sexual abuse of its children, to a constant stream of emigration. They are turning in their grave to see "Ireland" as it is today.

Junkyard Tom

kneemos wrote: »

If you're determined to believe what you want,what's the point of evidence?

The point is that there is no evidence that 'most locals' were against the rising. Using opinion pieces by the Irish Times is a laughable attempt to present anti-rising propaganda as evidence seeing as

Its politics [were] predominantly Protestant and Unionist, and it was closely associated with the Irish Unionist Alliance. The paper, along with the Irish Independent and various regional papers, called for the execution of the leaders of the failed 1916 Easter Rising.

wikipedia.org

recipio

Nodin wrote: »

Referendum on.......?

The 'Treaty' :rolleyes:

kneemos

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

The point is that there is no evidence that 'most locals' were against the rising. Using opinion pieces by the Irish Times is a laughable attempt to present anti-rising propaganda as evidence seeing as

Given the level of forensic scrutiny and passed down history that period has been subjected to,I'll go with the generally accepted opinion.

Junkyard Tom

kneemos wrote: »

Given the level of forensic scrutiny and passed down history that period has been subjected to,I'll go with the generally accepted opinion.

It was once generally accepted opinion that the Sun and planets revolved around the Earth.

As simple fact is that there is no evidence that most people in Dublin were against the Rising. Certainly, there were people that were annoyed and angered by it but that does not constitute 'most people'.

kneemos

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

It was once generally accepted opinion that the Sun and planets revolved around the Earth.

As simple fact is that there is no evidence that most people in Dublin were against the Rising. Certainly, there were people that were annoyed and angered by it but that does not constitute 'most people'.

How could there be unless a poll was taken . It's a ridiculous argument.
It's almost within living memory,there's no great mystery.

colm_mcm

Will the kids not be on Easter holidays?

LordSutch

Sheep Lover wrote: »

Be some laugh if the ancestors were part of the firing squad at Kilmainham jail

Well indeed, and seeing as the majority of people were against against the Rising (AT THE TIME) I can see all kinds of contradictions regarding this I'll conceived stunt by the department of education.

I've got a good mind to pull my kids out of school on the day :mad:
Failing that, I'll make my opinion known to the head teacher.

Anyway 1922 was the year this state was born, (not 1916) and my family on both sides were strongly involved in dealing with aspects of the 1916 insurgency, so how could I let my child be present for the salute to those responsible for the rising, whom my recent (Irish) ancestors fought against?

It's certainly stirred up a debate at home

Maybe I should let it go (says my wife), but on the other hand, my family were so anti the Rising so how can I happily take my kids to ceremony without looking down and biting my lip, as I think negative thoughts.

I realise that now 100 hears later, the Rising is glorified, and those who took part are venerated almost to the point of saint hood. But as I say above^ Most of the population "at the time" were anti-rising, so why should we celebrate/ honour it now?

Junkyard Tom

kneemos wrote: »

How could there be unless a poll was taken.

Precisely.

According to Peter Berresford Ellis it has become firmly set in people's minds that the Dublin people jeered the prisoners as they were led off to imprisonment, and that this description of how Dublin viewed the insurrection has almost become written in stone. He suggests that it was certainly a view that the imperial propaganda of the time wanted to impress on everyone and that newspapers were unlikely to publish anything to the contrary.

www.hermanh.be/Easter%20Rising.html

seamus

LordSutch wrote: »

I realise that now 100 hears later, the Rising is glorified, and those who took part are venerated almost to the point of saint hood. But as I say above^ Most of the population "at the time" were anti-rising, so why should we celebrate/ honour it now?

I'm not saying we should, but the reason we do is because ultimately the forces behind the rising won the day, even if they weren't all around to see it. And the winners are always the ones who write the history books

Overall it was a textbook example of how a Government disregarding public sentiment can literally change the course of history. From a relatively little-known and poorly supported rising, the actions of the UK government created a well-supported war of independence in less than three years and an effective loss by the UK in less than six.

Will the kids not be on Easter holidays?

The commemoration should be at the end of April, not tied to Easter. Cos that would be silly.

SimonTemplar

Deleted User wrote: »

About time we started embracing our national flag. I think all public places should have it flown proudly. I really like the way the Americans are proud of their flag and wish we could be as proud of ours.

Similarly the main square in Mexico city has a gigantic Mexican flag and it's impressive tbh.

I'd certainly like to see one on O'Connell Street rather than the bland giant steel syringe that sits in the middle of it.

http://www.delange.org/Zocalo/Dsc00338.jpg

Actually, that would look very good - turn The Spire into a giant flagpole with a massive Irish flag at the top.

endacl

LexieOnRale wrote: »

Wonder how many offended people will make an issue out of this?

All of them.

foggy_lad

Gatling wrote: »

That's a lot a flag poles then just for green flags

But in honesty most primary schools I know have 1-3 flag poles

most national schools got flagpoles before the popes visit in '79 for the Tricolour the papal flag and the EEC flag

I don't like this personally. It's one step closer to the Pledge of Allegiance that the US have.

strelok

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't like this personally. It's one step closer to the Pledge of Allegiance that the US have.

or playing the national anthem at closing time

*shudder*

tomwaterford

strelok wrote: »

or playing the national anthem at closing time

*shudder*

Getting the shift during the national anthem


luvs me country :pac:

mikeym

When I was in Primary School I was told that the tricolour was Green White & Gold which is complete Bull.

I hope todays kids are not told crap like that from teachers.

mikeym

mikeym wrote: »

When I was in Primary School I was told that the tricolour was Green White & Gold which is complete Bull.

I hope todays kids are not told crap like that from teachers.

What difference does it make if someone says gold or orange

tomwaterford

[Deleted User] wrote: »

What difference does it make if someone says gold or orange

As its to do with symbolism (like all flags)

Peace (white) between nationalist (green) and loyalists/unionists (Orange)



So we were taught when I in school

mikeym

Deleted User wrote: »

What difference does it make if someone says gold or orange

They are Two different colours.

The Orange is meant to represent the unionist population on the island.

kneemos

[Deleted User] wrote: »

What difference does it make if someone says gold or orange

Because it's a completely different colour and misses the point of bloody flag .

For Forks Sake

Meanwhile, somewhere in Armagh, I'd imagine Willie Frazers minuscule brain has gone into meltdown at this proposal.


*context for those unaware*
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/school-demands-direct-apology-for-frazers-flag-slur-28750993.html

LordSutch

mikeym wrote: »

They are Two different colours.

The Orange is meant to represent the unionist population on the island.

Unfortunately (for the flag) most of us Prods are not of the Orange persuasion either :-)

Incorporate the Cross of St Patrick into the Tricolour, then we're all represented & happy.

The_Valeyard

LordSutch wrote: »

Unfortunately (for the flag) most of us Prods are not of the Orange persuasion either :-)

Incorporate the Cross of St Patrick into the Tricolour, then we're all represented & happy.

Or we could just go back to the 1798 flag, we were all United under that.

DEFTLEFTHAND

mikeym wrote: »

They are Two different colours.

The Orange is meant to represent the unionist population on the island.

And two different flags with green white and gold being the county Offaly flag.

LordSutch

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

The point is that there is no evidence that 'most locals' were against the rising. Using opinion pieces by the Irish Times is a laughable attempt to present anti-rising propaganda as evidence seeing as

And yet you will hear historians such as Diarmaid Ferriter discussing in detail on the radio about the Fact that the Rising was very unpopular amongst the population at large, and that it was committed by a very small minority of people (within a minority), namely the IRB. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diarmaid_Ferriter

There is no doubt that at the time of its occurrence, the 1916 rising was a devisive & unpopular catastrophy which caused much destruction and death in a short space of time (in the middle of the Great War)!

Jump twenty years forward and the wheels of nation building are turning quickly.... with the memory of the rising being built & embroidered into a mythical event, that will come to define who we are ss a 26 county nation, and what our ideals should be in our quest to be a 32 county nation.

The rising was illegal, the rising was small, the rising was committed by a tiny minority within a minority, the rising was very unpopular, the rebels were despised, spat at, and cursed at by the population of Dublin, many of who were already acquainted with death and destruction on a much larger scale, with tens of thousands of Irelands sons off fighting in the western front against the Germans.

Yet now 100 years later we will honour the deeds of the rebels in our schools over the coming months, when each and every Primary school will hold a ceremnoy to celebrate the Rising :cool:

Fratton Fred

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

And two different flags with green white and gold being the county Offaly flag.

My wife's teacher (an American) was convinced it was green for Ireland added to the gold and white of the Vatican flag.

sdanseo

Though you'd obviously never guess so from my signature, I think this is a brilliant idea. Should be flown from every single public building.

Junkyard Tom

LordSutch wrote: »

And yet you will hear historians such as Diarmaid Ferriter discussing in detail on the radio about the Fact that the Rising was very unpopular amongst the population at large, and that it was committed by a very small minority of people (within a minority), namely the IRB. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diarmaid_Ferriter

Yet still no credible evidence as to how unpopular the rising was or the rebels were.

There is no doubt that at the time of its occurrence, the 1916 rising ... caused much destruction and death in a short space of time (in the middle of the Great War)!

Yep especially the cowardly scumbags using heavy artillery against the Rebels in Dublin City.

The rising was illegal, the rising was small, the rising was committed by a tiny minority within a minority,

You'll forgive me, and many others, for laughing at the notion that our former occupiers (and their apologists like you) had any moral authority to decry something as illegal in the context of their murderous, population-halving, anti-democratic occupation of Ireland.

the rising was very unpopular,

Certainly amongst your types and your precursors - as for the rest of Dublin? We see plenty of anecdotes to the contrary of the picture painted by the pro-British pro-Union rags who called for the execution of the rebels.

the rebels were despised, spat at, and cursed at by the population of Dublin

The volunteers were marched through areas where that reaction was quite likely to happen. If captured British mercenaries were marched through certain parts of Dublin they'd have been gobbed on too.

Yet now 100 years later we will honour the deeds of the rebels in our schools over the coming months, when each and every Primary school will hold a ceremnoy to celebrate the Rising

Good. The rebels were brave visionaries who knew, if the Rising failed, they'd be murdered by the occupiers. Their bravery and vision set in motion the events that led to us booting out the British and inspired many others across the globe to do likewise.

Shame on you.

Badly Drunk Boy

OptimusTractor wrote: »

Yes but with no "Davy Keogh Says Hello" s**te written across it.

How about one that has "Padraic Pearse says kids are kool!" written on it?

OldRio

Well this went the way we all thought it would.

The usual suspects wishing we all still bowed to 'our masters'. Or perhaps they just crave attention. I think a bit of both.

LordSutch

OldRio wrote: »

Well this went the way we all thought it would.

The usual suspects wishing we all still bowed to 'our masters'. Or perhaps they just crave attention. I think a bit of both.

I would expect the "bowing to our masters" comment to come from the likes of Junkyard, but I am surprised at you! Look again at my post above and take it for what it is (from my family perspective) and backed up by the likes of historian Diarmaid Ferreter.

No master & servant references needed, just the reality of what really happened in 1916 without the layers of mythology that have become attached in the intervening decades.

Nodin

LordSutch wrote: »

And (................)Rising :cool:

Hehehehe. Terrible, isn't? They probably learn the odd rebel song too.

riffmongous

Fratton Fred wrote: »

My wife's teacher (an American) was convinced it was green for Ireland added to the gold and white of the Vatican flag.

Any Vatican flag I've ever seen I would have described as yellow though, it's always paler than gold, even if officially it's supposed to be gold

Nodin

LordSutch wrote: »

I would expect the "bowing to our masters" comment to come from the likes of Junkyard, but I am surprised at you! Look again at my post above and take it for what it is (from my family perspective) and backed up by the likes of historian Diarmaid Ferreter.

No master & servant references needed, just the reality of what really happened in 1916 without the layers of mythology that have become attached in the intervening decades.

I don't think your unionist perspective would be backed up by Diarmaid Ferriter, tbh.

It is hard to be on the losing side of history, I suppose.

recipio

Many of us are asserting that the present banana Republic we live in was simply not worth all the bloodletting started by the 1916 generation.To present it to our schoolchildren as a worthwhile cause is disgusting.

Son Of A Vidic

LordSutch wrote: »

..The rising was illegal..

Well that certainly ranks amongst one of the most ridiculous commentaries I've ever read on this site.

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kneemos

recipio wrote: »

Many of us are asserting that the present banana Republic we live in was simply not worth all the bloodletting started by the 1916 generation.To present it to our schoolchildren as a worthwhile cause is disgusting.

I think the issue is celebrating an unsuccessful rising that nobody wanted.

Nodin

recipio wrote: »

Many of us are asserting that the present banana Republic we live in was simply not worth all the bloodletting started by the 1916 generation.To present it to our schoolchildren as a worthwhile cause is disgusting.

If you can find a state that started off perfect and stayed that way, fair play to ye. And you can apply that search criteria from Sweden to the US and all stops in between.