Budget 2016

Nichard Dixon

AlexisM wrote: »

As long as the self-employed accrue the same COAP as the employed, they should be contributing something extra to compensate for the lack of an employer contribution.

Spot on. But of course Renua and the like are whining that the self employed are imposed upon.

But of course many people contribute little or nothing and still get a pension not much less than those who contribute, employed or self employed.

Greyian

AlexisM wrote: »

The self-employed get a fantastic deal - the contributory pension for their 4% PRSI contributions. I think low-paid self-employed can contribute something like €500 pa in PRSI and accrue towards the COAP. So 40 years work times €500 = €20,000 - and they get a benefit reckoned to be worth around €300,000.

Just on that, how do you arrive at a valuation of €300,000 for the contributory pension. You'd need to live into your 90s to get that much back...and that's not counting the fact that there's the non-contributory pension, so the PRSI paid doesn't actually secure you a €300,000 "boost" as it were.

AlexisM

Greyian wrote: »

Just on that, how do you arrive at a valuation of €300,000 for the contributory pension. You'd need to live into your 90s to get that much back...

Just did a quote on the Irish Life website. 300K will buy a pension annuity of 12,910 for a 66 year old. This is a non-increasing amount that doesn't transfer to the spouse when the pensioner dies - whereas the state contributory pension is effectively index-linked and can transfer to a spouse. So 300K is probably an underestimate of the value of an index-linked pension of 12K pa.

TheDoc

If USC being cut by 2% is the so called giveaway....****ing hell. They can keep it to be honest as it makes little or not odds to my payslip. A 2% cut on USC works out about €35 a month there or there abouts? Hardly worth a headline.

I'm very interested to know where these giveaways are taking place, cause I'm not seeing anything to bring a smile to my face. While I've always had that sort stance that auction budgets were wrong, and how we stay in this endless cycle or terrible, unimaginative governments, I'm feeling the pinch big time this year("Recession is over don't you know, we are all doing grand sure!") and was willing to sacrifice my principles for once to welcome a little giveaway budget to try ease the pressure and stress.

But ****ing hell.....USC cut by 2% is hardly something to jump up and down about. And no doubt will probably have ANOTHER price hike on Tobacco, the wonderful low hanging fruit....

Idbatterim

But ****ing hell.....USC cut by 2% is hardly something to jump up and down about. And no doubt will probably have ANOTHER price hike on Tobacco, the wonderful low hanging fruit....

cutting the usc is moronic IMO, but I am not seeking re-election. the only rate that should be cut, is the marginal rate, but they couldnt only be seen to be helping out our "rich" on E33,800+ :rolleyes:

the USC applies to all income, even non Labour related and means that the huge amount of workers paying in virtually nothing, pay in something at least. USC isnt part of the problem, its the solution...

Buford T. Justice XIX

TheDoc wrote: »

If USC being cut by 2% is the so called giveaway....****ing hell. They can keep it to be honest as it makes little or not odds to my payslip. A 2% cut on USC works out about €3.50 a month there or there abouts? Hardly worth a headline.

I'm very interested to know where these giveaways are taking place, cause I'm not seeing anything to bring a smile to my face. While I've always had that sort stance that auction budgets were wrong, and how we stay in this endless cycle or terrible, unimaginative governments, I'm feeling the pinch big time this year("Recession is over don't you know, we are all doing grand sure!") and was willing to sacrifice my principles for once to welcome a little giveaway budget to try ease the pressure and stress.

But ****ing hell.....USC cut by 2% is hardly something to jump up and down about. And no doubt will probably have ANOTHER price hike on Tobacco, the wonderful low hanging fruit....

Sure, give it to me if you're not going to use it:pac:

It's small enough but it's bringing the marginal rate down to under 50%. The budget is fairly restricted in what they can do due to EU budget rules but the effect is cumulative in the future.

If growth stays at the current rate, there will be more at work and higher tax take and less social spending which will increase the room the next government have to both balance the budget and cut taxes.

But there is no guarantee that the US/UK led growth will continue at the current rate and we may yet regret not focusing on balancing the current account deficit.

But it's easy to criticise the government for throwing a few sweetners into the pot on the eve of an election as no government has been reelected for cutting back on spending.

BoJack Horseman

Idbatterim wrote: »

cutting the usc is moronic IMO, but I am not seeking re-election. the only rate that should be cut, is the marginal rate, but they couldnt only be seen to be helping out our "rich" on E33,800+ :rolleyes:

Indeed.
USC applies to all income, earned & most importantly, unearned.

Anyone with a socialist bone in their body should be happy to see USC remain.

If people want to see workers burden reduced, leave USC as is & adjust bands & rates of PAYE.

But then, that's not as sexy as ridding the evil USC.

ezra_pound

TheDoc wrote: »

If USC being cut by 2% is the so called giveaway....****ing hell. They can keep it to be honest as it makes little or not odds to my payslip. A 2% cut on USC works out about €3.50 a month there or there abouts? Hardly worth a headline.

I'm very interested to know where these giveaways are taking place, cause I'm not seeing anything to bring a smile to my face. While I've always had that sort stance that auction budgets were wrong, and how we stay in this endless cycle or terrible, unimaginative governments, I'm feeling the pinch big time this year("Recession is over don't you know, we are all doing grand sure!") and was willing to sacrifice my principles for once to welcome a little giveaway budget to try ease the pressure and stress.

But ****ing hell.....USC cut by 2% is hardly something to jump up and down about. And no doubt will probably have ANOTHER price hike on Tobacco, the wonderful low hanging fruit....

It's not being cut by 2%. It's being reduced by two percentage points from 7% to 5%. In other words it's being reduced by about 30%. It will make you a lot more than 3.50eur better off a month.

Dob74

Anyone else think that the government assume the population are complete idiots? After preaching austerity for the last five years now as soon as a bit growth returns to the economy they are opening the flood gates on spending and tax cuts. No doubt it will lead to inflation and prices going thru the roof.
Only An idiot makes the same mistake twice.
Why can't fg lab follow a different path. Surely they saw what happened to the greens and Fianna Fail.
Seriously cut taxes and cut services. Or raise taxes and put more money into services. But please don't try to do both.

BoJack Horseman

Dob74 wrote: »

After preaching austerity for the last five years now as soon as a bit growth returns to the economy they are opening the flood gates on spending and tax cuts.

Because this has been proven to be what the voter wants.

Paddy aches to be bribed with his own money.

Geuze

TheDoc wrote: »

If USC being cut by 2% is the so called giveaway....****ing hell. They can keep it to be honest as it makes little or not odds to my payslip. A 2% cut on USC works out about €3.50 a month there or there abouts? Hardly worth a headline.


But ****ing hell.....USC cut by 2% is hardly something to jump up and down about. And no doubt will probably have ANOTHER price hike on Tobacco, the wonderful low hanging fruit....

Note that it's a possible cut in the rate by 2%, not a 2% cut in the amount that you pay.

newacc2015

Dob74 wrote: »

Anyone else think that the government assume the population are complete idiots? After preaching austerity for the last five years now as soon as a bit growth returns to the economy they are opening the flood gates on spending and tax cuts. No doubt it will lead to inflation and prices going thru the roof.

Im a firm believer of fiscal controls. But with the threat of deflation being so strong. If we get inflation, I think most economists will be celebrating.The risk of entering into a Japan never ending recession due to to deflation is too great.

A bit of inflation is good in an economy as it encourages more spending. Deflation causes the opposite and is extremely difficult to overcome. If we get inflation of 2-3%(what the conservate ECB thinks is healthy), I will call the budget a success

Geuze

newacc2015 wrote: »

A bit of inflation is good in an economy as it encourages more spending. Deflation causes the opposite and is extremely difficult to overcome. If we get inflation of 2-3%(what the conservate ECB thinks is healthy), I will call the budget a success

Surely inflation is an outcome?

A stronger economy, with more spending, leads to inflation?

Instead of "more inflation leads to more spending".

Hollister11

• Reduce social welfare by half. Saves 9,600,000,000.
  
• Limit children's allowance to people with one irish parent at least. None of this - emigrants have a child here, or other europeans having kids here getting this benefit.
  
• Increasing building in houses. This increases house to solve the homeless problem, and creates jobs in the economy.
  
• Spend another 1.5B in each of Education and Health.
  
• New transport System in Ireland. The equivalent of Dublin Bus and Dart in every county.
  
• Dissolve irish water.
  
• Reduce income tax to 15% and 33% respectively.
  
• Everyone earning 150K + pays a flat rate of 18% on everything.
  
• Capital gains, and capital acquisition tax reduced to 23%.
  
• Reduce vat to 20%
  
• Increase corporation tax to 15% on profits of over 1Million.
  
• Tax on rental income to be 25%. Remove it from income tax completely.
  
• Increase cigarettes to €15 per pack.
  
• Buy all commercial units for sale and rent them out at 60% market rate. Creates business in the local economy and creates jobs.
  
• Increase charitable payments to animal rights groups.

Eric Cartman

Hollister11 wrote: »

• Reduce social welfare by half. Saves 9,600,000,000.
  
• Limit children's allowance to people with one irish parent at least. None of this - emigrants have a child here, or other europeans having kids here getting this benefit.
  
• Increasing building in houses. This increases house to solve the homeless problem, and creates jobs in the economy.
  
  
• Spend another 1.5B in each of Education and Health.
  
  
• New transport System in Ireland. The equivalent of Dublin Bus and Dart in every county.
  
• Dissolve irish water.
  
• Reduce income tax to 15% and 33% respectively.
  
• Everyone earning 150K + pays a flat rate of 18% on everything.
  
• Capital gains, and capital acquisition tax reduced to 23%.
  
• Reduce vat to 20%
  
  
• Increase corporation tax to 15% on profits of over 1Million.
  
• Tax on rental income to be 25%. Remove it from income tax completely.
  
  
• Increase cigarettes to €15 per pack.
  
  
• Buy all commercial units for sale and rent them out at 60% market rate. Creates business in the local economy and creates jobs.
  
  
• Increase charitable payments to animal rights groups.

you have some very good ideas there, once I cross out the crazy ones.

ezra_pound

Eric Cartman wrote: »

you have some very good ideas there, once I cross out the crazy ones.

What are the very good ideas? They're all ridiculous- apart from the cigarettes but that's a no brainer.

Idbatterim

Because this has been proven to be what the voter wants.

Paddy aches to be bribed with his own money.

i think its important to strike a balance between getting re-elected and not "giving away" more than they need to... I am against any welfare increases, if they insist on them, it should be the bare minimum. Then forget any for the next few years when there isnt an imminent election, the money can be far better spent in other areas IMO...

Eric Cartman

ezra_pound wrote: »

What are the very good ideas? They're all ridiculous- apart from the cigarettes but that's a no brainer.

Reduce social welfare by half. Saves 9,600,000,000.
Reduce income tax to 15% and 33% respectively.
Everyone earning 150K + pays a flat rate of 18% on everything.
Capital gains, and capital acquisition tax reduced to 23%.
Reduce vat to 20%

these were pretty good ones. €15 quid smokes is just going to boost the black market even more.

Greyian

AlexisM wrote: »

Just did a quote on the Irish Life website. 300K will buy a pension annuity of 12,910 for a 66 year old. This is a non-increasing amount that doesn't transfer to the spouse when the pensioner dies - whereas the state contributory pension is effectively index-linked and can transfer to a spouse. So 300K is probably an underestimate of the value of an index-linked pension of 12K pa.

Except that the value of the contributory pension is only really €15...because you'd get ~€220/week from the non-contributory pension.

newacc2015

Geuze wrote: »

Surely inflation is an outcome?

A stronger economy, with more spending, leads to inflation?

Instead of "more inflation leads to more spending".

Inflation reduces the incentive to save. If your money is worth less in one year. You are more likely to spend it today

BunkMoreland

A bonus for sitting on their holes. Well fair play to them.

If I get a bonus in work it's usually 10%, and usually that's 10% of zero.

BOHtox

Hollister11 wrote: »

• Reduce social welfare by half. Saves 9,600,000,000.
  
• Limit children's allowance to people with one irish parent at least. None of this - emigrants have a child here, or other europeans having kids here getting this benefit.
  
• Increasing building in houses. This increases house to solve the homeless problem, and creates jobs in the economy.
  
• Spend another 1.5B in each of Education and Health.
  
• New transport System in Ireland. The equivalent of Dublin Bus and Dart in every county.
  
• Dissolve irish water.
  
• Reduce income tax to 15% and 33% respectively.
  
• Everyone earning 150K + pays a flat rate of 18% on everything.
  
• Capital gains, and capital acquisition tax reduced to 23%.
  
• Reduce vat to 20%
  
• Increase corporation tax to 15% on profits of over 1Million.
  
• Tax on rental income to be 25%. Remove it from income tax completely.
  
• Increase cigarettes to €15 per pack.
  
• Buy all commercial units for sale and rent them out at 60% market rate. Creates business in the local economy and creates jobs.
  
• Increase charitable payments to animal rights groups.

That's the craziest list of far left, far right and slapstick I have ever seen

ezra_pound

Eric Cartman wrote: »

these were pretty good ones. €15 quid smokes is just going to boost the black market even more.

OK just to take first point- halving social welfare.

How on earth do you deal with the riots as 800k oaps take to the streets in wed. morning saying no way are we voting for you and probably justifiably petrified of how they're going to make ends meet.

ezra_pound

BOHtox wrote: »

That's the craziest list of far left, far right and slapstick I have ever seen

The classic hidden gem in the middle though - "dissolve Irish water "
It's actually a beautifully silly thing to write - but in a list of budget 4 year old bloopers like this the night before budget day - priceless

Perhaps he meant "dissolve in Irish water. - awwwwwwhhh. Bally. - gow - an "!?

ezra_pound

And what on earth would the Leitrim equivalent of the dart be - a taxi driven by a unionised driver?

A rickshaw?

Reduce social welfare in half, take rickshaw in Leitrim, take two panadol and dissolve in Irish water.

ezra_pound

Limiting children's allowance to only Irish born parents - I mean come on.

Absurd.

Geuze

Hollister11 wrote: »

• Reduce social welfare by half. Saves 9,600,000,000.

Halving the State Pension and Child Benefit would be deeply unpopular.

Cutting the CSP from 230.30 pw back to 115 pw would push many pensioners into poverty.

It is not a reasonable suggestion.

touts

ezra_pound wrote: »

Limiting children's allowance to only Irish born parents - I mean come on.

Absurd.

Agree. You can't limit it to Irish Born Parents. If the child lives here they should have an entitlement to the same payment regardless of who their parents are.

But what should be done is to limit the payment to children living here and the payment should be in vouchers (realistically a sort of debit one4all type card rather than paper vouchers). Those vouchers would be acceptable in Irish stores only and would be time limited. That would prevent the money being sent overseas and would also prevent better off parents saving the money to pay for University etc in the future. You could also put restrictions on what the voucher scheme could be spent on thus preventing it being spent in the bookies or off-licence. It would have to be spent on the child and would have to be spend within a few weeks of payment thus boosting both the welfare of the child and the economy.

There is a very valid argument that child benefit should be means tested. While I would agree with that politically that will probably never happen. So if we are stuck with it we might as well use it as a tool to introduce a voucher like system for a form of welfare that everyone gets regardless of status. Therefore there is quickly no stigma in using the welfare voucher card and it becomes commonly accepted. That eliminates the key argument against paying ALL welfare in voucher form. "I'd be too ashamed to pay for it with food vouchers". Well if everyone is using these cards no one knows or cares about your personal circumstances. Remember no pensioner objects to the shame of using the free travel pass because everyone over 65 gets it and therefore there is no stigma. Start with child welfare, then all state pensions, then all welfare.

Once all welfare is paid in vouchers there are huge benefits to the taxpayer. The state can negotiate with the stores and companies in the scheme for savings without reducing the payment to the recipient. The money has to be spent in this country and can't be sent overseas. It has to be spend shortly (say within a month) after the payment thus boosting the economy. With the correct security tools (e.g. photo id etc) it would devastate the black market.

Villa05

Geuze wrote:

Cutting the CSP from 230.30 pw back to 115 pw would push many pensioners into poverty.

It would be cut by a lot more. There are far more pensioners that there are unemployed

ezra_pound

Villa05 wrote: »

It would be cut by a lot more. There are far more pensioners that there are unemployed

Well if we are cutting sw in half then it's fair enough for demonstrative purposes to literally apply a 50% reduction to all benefits.

seamus

Hollister11 wrote: »

• Reduce social welfare by half. Saves 9,600,000,000.
  
• Limit children's allowance to people with one irish parent at least. None of this - emigrants have a child here, or other europeans having kids here getting this benefit.
  
• Increasing building in houses. This increases house to solve the homeless problem, and creates jobs in the economy.
  
• Spend another 1.5B in each of Education and Health.
  
• New transport System in Ireland. The equivalent of Dublin Bus and Dart in every county.
  
• Dissolve irish water.
  
• Reduce income tax to 15% and 33% respectively.
  
• Everyone earning 150K + pays a flat rate of 18% on everything.
  
• Capital gains, and capital acquisition tax reduced to 23%.
  
• Reduce vat to 20%
  
• Increase corporation tax to 15% on profits of over 1Million.
  
• Tax on rental income to be 25%. Remove it from income tax completely.
  
• Increase cigarettes to €15 per pack.
  
• Buy all commercial units for sale and rent them out at 60% market rate. Creates business in the local economy and creates jobs.
  
• Increase charitable payments to animal rights groups.

Let's be honest here, this is a wishlist rather than a serious suggestion of what to do. You're basically hoping that you can claw back €10bn on social welfare to spend on everything else without any ill-effects.

Although someone has accused you of being lefty, a lot of this is very right-leaning, since the big winners overall would be the top 1% and the big losers would be the bottom 10%.

Though I can get behind the animal charity thing. In reality we should be removing all state funding for greyhound and horse racing and ring fencing that for animal welfare projects, as well as imposing a 5% levy on winnings from these events, deductible at source by the bookies.

Baggy Trousers

A giveaway propaganda budget using borrowed money. Brave stuff from our visionary government. Did they learn nothing?

Sigh. We're still in structural deficit without infrastructure spending being a large part of it...

Could we not have sat tight one more year? Buying elections is woeful stuff.

seamus

Deleted User wrote: »

Sigh. We're still in structural deficit without infrastructure spending being a large part of it...

Could we not have sat tight one more year? Buying elections is woeful stuff.

The funny thing is, I think if the Government said they were leaving taxes as is, but pumping €1bn into health and €250m each into transport and education, the vast majority of voters (and FG's key voters in particular) would be just as happy with that as with tax cuts.

Dob74

Hollister11 wrote:

Reduce social welfare by half. Saves 9,600,000,000. Limit children's allowance to people with one irish parent at least. None of this - emigrants have a child here, or other europeans having kids here getting this benefit. Increasing building in houses. This increases house to solve the homeless problem, and creates jobs in the economy. Spend another 1.5B in each of Education and Health. New transport System in Ireland. The equivalent of Dublin Bus and Dart in every county. Dissolve irish water. Reduce income tax to 15% and 33% respectively. Everyone earning 150K + pays a flat rate of 18% on everything. Capital gains, and capital acquisition tax reduced to 23%. Reduce vat to 20% Increase corporation tax to 15% on profits of over 1Million. Tax on rental income to be 25%. Remove it from income tax completely. Increase cigarettes to €15 per pack. Buy all commercial units for sale and rent them out at 60% market rate. Creates business in the local economy and creates jobs. Increase charitable payments to animal rights groups.

Not bad.
But most of the social welfare budget goes on Oap and children's allowance.
In directly we already own most of those vacant properties. NAMA is holding them to drive prices up. To the shame of central government they appear to be fine with this.

seamus

seamus wrote: »

The funny thing is, I think if the Government said they were leaving taxes as is, but pumping €1bn into health and €250m each into transport and education, the vast majority of voters (and FG's key voters in particular) would be just as happy with that as with tax cuts.

Must be some reason they think, or seem to at least, otherwise.

Godge

touts wrote: »

Agree. You can't limit it to Irish Born Parents. If the child lives here they should have an entitlement to the same payment regardless of who their parents are.

But what should be done is to limit the payment to children living here and the payment should be in vouchers (realistically a sort of debit one4all type card rather than paper vouchers). Those vouchers would be acceptable in Irish stores only and would be time limited. That would prevent the money being sent overseas and would also prevent better off parents saving the money to pay for University etc in the future. You could also put restrictions on what the voucher scheme could be spent on thus preventing it being spent in the bookies or off-licence. It would have to be spent on the child and would have to be spend within a few weeks of payment thus boosting both the welfare of the child and the economy.

There is a very valid argument that child benefit should be means tested. While I would agree with that politically that will probably never happen. So if we are stuck with it we might as well use it as a tool to introduce a voucher like system for a form of welfare that everyone gets regardless of status. Therefore there is quickly no stigma in using the welfare voucher card and it becomes commonly accepted. That eliminates the key argument against paying ALL welfare in voucher form. "I'd be too ashamed to pay for it with food vouchers". Well if everyone is using these cards no one knows or cares about your personal circumstances. Remember no pensioner objects to the shame of using the free travel pass because everyone over 65 gets it and therefore there is no stigma. Start with child welfare, then all state pensions, then all welfare.

Once all welfare is paid in vouchers there are huge benefits to the taxpayer. The state can negotiate with the stores and companies in the scheme for savings without reducing the payment to the recipient. The money has to be spent in this country and can't be sent overseas. It has to be spend shortly (say within a month) after the payment thus boosting the economy. With the correct security tools (e.g. photo id etc) it would devastate the black market.

Cut child benefit and spend the money on the following measures:

- School Books, further savings through central tender
- School Uniforms, ditto
- Expansion of School meals, especially for disadvantaged areas
- Subsidised after-school childcare for working parents (not for those on social welfare)
- Subsidised childcare for pre-school children of working parents where full parental leave has been used
- Increased funding for child sporting facilities.

There is nearly €2 bn a year spent on child benefit. All of the above would cost less than that and be much better for children.

Captain Chaos

Deleted User wrote: »

Sigh. We're still in structural deficit without infrastructure spending being a large part of it...

Could we not have sat tight one more year? Buying elections is woeful stuff.

This is the last chance for this type of budget ever. New EU rules come in from next year meaning no more buying elections like this will be possible anymore.

Dickerty

Deleted User wrote: »

Sigh. We're still in structural deficit without infrastructure spending being a large part of it...

Could we not have sat tight one more year? Buying elections is woeful stuff.

But you cannot continue to tell people that we are recovering well, and then say there is no benefit to them. Making statements about the recovery is important to attract jobs and investment, and giving something back to everyone is a good way to promote spending, and may give some relief for increasing rents or mortgage arrears...

Dickerty

Captain Chaos wrote: »

This is the last chance for this type of budget ever. New EU rules come in from next year meaning no more buying elections like this will be possible anymore.

Yeh, that will definitely work...

BoJack Horseman

Captain Chaos wrote: »

This is the last chance for this type of budget ever. New EU rules come in from next year meaning no more buying elections like this will be possible anymore.

Tell that to France...
or every country for that matter.

The "3% deficit" thing can be ignored at will & it's not like it is a tricky target anyway.
(3% of GDP being just shy of €6bn)

Bacchus

seamus wrote: »

The funny thing is, I think if the Government said they were leaving taxes as is, but pumping €1bn into health and €250m each into transport and education, the vast majority of voters (and FG's key voters in particular) would be just as happy with that as with tax cuts.

I'd much rather see that. I don't mind the taxes if the services benefited from them. The health service is straining as it is and could badly do with that money.... just don't pump it into the management level. It needs to go to more nursing staff & doctors, as well as any other front line staff.

Stranger Danger

Bacchus wrote: »

I'd much rather see that. I don't mind the taxes if the services benefited from them. The health service is straining as it is and could badly do with that money.... just don't pump it into the management level. It needs to go to more nursing staff & doctors, as well as any other front line staff.

Of course Irish voters like to tell themselves such fairy tales. That we want world class Health and Education systems and we don't mind paying for them.

But we do mind, we mind very much, and we've consistently voted in Parties who've promised to prioritise tax-cuts on earned income.

The Govt. aren't stupid. They know Paddy prefers to see a few extra quid on the pay slip come January than hear we're going to improve the Health system.

Paddy is greedy and Paddy doesn't trust the Govt. with his money. They'll only waste it he tells himself.

Paddy doesn't like feeling greedy however so occasionally he'll get worked up about the homeless crisis or people on trolleys and he might phone Joe Duffy and do a bit of shouting about the Minister for Health of the day and what a bastard/bitch he or she is.

But when he's calmed down, he'll take the pay slip out of the back pocket and calculate how many extra pints he can buy this month and he'll nod to himself and carry on as usual.

BoJack Horseman

Bacchus wrote: »

just don't pump it into the management level. It needs to go to more nursing staff & doctors, as well as any other front line staff.

The perception of bloat is probably unfounded at this point.

2.7% of HSE staffing numbers are for Management & Administration
7.4% of HSE expenditure is on same.

Which I think would rate quite well in a large private company.

I wonder if people were polled on the above where would they assume the numbers would be?

Villa05

ezra_pound wrote:

Well if we are cutting sw in half then it's fair enough for demonstrative purposes to literally apply a 50% reduction to all benefits.

Half a free transport scheme and half a medical card it is then

Buford T. Justice XIX

Villa05 wrote: »

Half a free transport scheme and half a medical card it is then

They get taken to their destination but have to pay to get home?:)

Bacchus

Stranger Danger wrote: »

Of course Irish voters like to tell themselves such fairy tales. That we want world class Health and Education systems and we don't mind paying for them.

But we do mind, we mind very much, and we've consistently voted in Parties who've promised to prioritise tax-cuts on earned income.

The Govt. aren't stupid. They know Paddy prefers to see a few extra quid on the pay slip come January than hear we're going to improve the Health system.

Paddy is greedy and Paddy doesn't trust the Govt. with his money. They'll only waste it he tells himself.

Paddy doesn't like feeling greedy however so occasionally he'll get worked up about the homeless crisis or people on trolleys and he might phone Joe Duffy and do a bit of shouting about the Minister for Health of the day and what a bastard/bitch he or she is.

But when he's calmed down, he'll take the pay slip out of the back pocket and calculate how many extra pints he can buy this month and he'll nod to himself and carry on as usual.

Sad but true. The majority are unable to see beyond their own payslip or welfare payment. Granted, I'm in a position where I'm not living month to month waiting on wages but better public services benefits everyone and I'd support a party that had that approach.

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

The perception of bloat is probably unfounded at this point.

2.7% of HSE staffing numbers are for Management & Administration
7.4% of HSE expenditure is on same.

Which I think would rate quite well in a large private company.

I wonder if people were polled on the above where would they assume the numbers would be?

So, you've covered management, do you think that front line services are adequately paid and staffed?

BoJack Horseman

Bacchus wrote: »

do you think that front line services are adequately paid and staffed?

Paid?
Absolutely (with the possible exception of the NCHDs)

Staffing levels are pretty good.
Ireland rates quite highly for staff numbers per capita.

Bacchus

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Paid?
Absolutely (with the possible exception of the NCHDs)

Staffing levels are pretty good.
Ireland rates quite highly for staff numbers per capita.

From the experience of friends and family of mine who work within the health service, I would have to disagree. I hear stories of working crazy hours, back to back shifts, being exhausted and being officially told they should go home but doing so puts patients health and lives at risk so they struggle on.

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/time-to-bring-back-irish-doctors-and-nurses-who-have-emigrated-1.2352831

BoJack Horseman

Bacchus wrote: »

From the experience of friends and family of mine who work within the health service, I would have to disagree. I hear stories of working crazy hours, back to back shifts, being exhausted and being officially told they should go home but doing so puts patients health and lives at risk so they struggle on.

Nurses work a basic 40hr (or less) per week, they cannot exceed working time directive hours.

I said above that the NCHD's could do with more help, they are the whipping boys of the system.

But overall, its not that bad.... as this 'nurses per capita' indicates