Boyfriend as tenant

Addle

Mrs OBumble wrote:

Indeed.

But if the so called ex has proof of address in the house and claims that there was an intimate relationship which has now broken down, then it could be hard to prove there wasn't one. Especially if they happen to be a bit clever with photos.

Outside parties would also have to perjure themselves. It's not likely to happen.

endacl

lima wrote: »

I can see what you are saying (minus the patronizing), but lets forget about the guys situation for a second.

In this situation she is going to have a mortgage one way or another, whether they are together or not, and she has the ability to pay it all herself (else she wouldn't have gotten a mortgage) so charging her partner rent is just capitalizing on an opportunity to make more money, and ensuring someone doesn't get away with living for free.

In the interest if fairness perhaps he should contribute to something (I think savings account is a good idea) but this is a tricky situation. Treating a partner like a tenant is not the way to go about this sensitive situation.

You can't charge a partner rent. You might call it rent. You may both believe it's rent. But it's not.

A partner can't be a tenant. Nobody who lives with an owner-occupier is a tenant. Again, they might believe they're a tenant. You might both refer to them as a tenant. But they're not.

Not having clue one about the basics of these legal entities us not a good way to advise about this sensitive situation.

lima

runawaybishop wrote: »

The partner has no problem with it, what's it to you in all fairness.

This is a forum in the public realm, and hence I am giving my opinion.

athtrasna

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lima

lima wrote: »

I can see what you are saying (minus the patronizing), but lets forget about the guys situation for a second.

In this situation she is going to have a mortgage one way or another, whether they are together or not, and she has the ability to pay it all herself (else she wouldn't have gotten a mortgage) so charging her partner rent is just capitalizing on an opportunity to make more money, and ensuring someone doesn't get away with living for free.

Personally I don't agree with people paying rent to live at home but I would see this as a very different situation.

They have been renting together and are essentialy just moving house, except now one of the parties owns the house rather than a 3rd party. I don't see how the boyfriend would not be expect to pay half the mortgage (or something to that effect), if he wasn't living there he would be renting somewhere else (unless he moved home).

If the op took in a lodger would expect them to live rent free too?

riclad

IF You take him as a tenant keep records of all payments recieved ,
including,esb, utility bills etc
under the rent a room scheme you have to send it a tax return every year , re rental income recieved .Uptil 12k rental income on the rent a room scheme, its tax free ,but you still need to make a tax return .
its logical you wish to protect your investment ,a mortgage is 25 years plus .you can get advice from the citizens advice centre .
See www.revenue.ie search rent a room .
it makes sense to me as i feel you are not ready to buy a house in a joint mortgage at the moment .
Hold onto all reciepts,documents for 5 years,or even until the mortage is paid off .
The law is you must send in a tax return every year , even if the rent recieved is a small amount ,

Dial Hard

Crosby Victorious Trachea wrote:

Personally I don't agree with people paying rent to live at home but I would see this as a very different situation.

Calling it rent is just semantics. It's a contribution to living in a shared space, which every adult who's earning money should do, whether they're living at home, with a partner or with strangers.

endacl

riclad wrote: »

IF You take him as a tenant keep records of all payments recieved ,
including,esb, utility bills etc
under the rent a room scheme you have to send it a tax return every year , re rental income recieved .Uptil 12k rental income on the rent a room scheme, its tax free ,but you still need to make a tax return .
its logical you wish to protect your investment ,a mortgage is 25 years plus .you can get advice from the citizens advice centre .
See www.revenue.ie search rent a room .
it makes sense to me as i feel you are not ready to buy a house in a joint mortgage at the moment .
Hold onto all reciepts,documents for 5 years,or even until the mortage is paid off .
The law is you must send in a tax return every year , even if the rent recieved is a small amount ,

OK. One last time. Let's see if it sticks. I'll type it really slowly...

If a person lives in the same house or apartment as the owner occupier, they are not a 'tenant'.

riclad

I know a landlord has 3 tenants, he sends a tax return under the rent a room scheme .
he gives em rent books ,reciepts, i,m not a lawyer .
i would regard them as tenants .

I lived there ,i paid rent for 3 years .
His girlfriend lives 3 miles away .
The rent a room scheme is on revenue .ie ,
rent a room, tax free up to 12k. http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/it/rental-income.html#section3

Rent-a-Room Relief

An individual who lets a room (or rooms) in his or her sole or main residence as residential accommodation may be exempt from income tax in respect of income from the letting where the aggregate of the gross rents and any sums for meals or other services supplied in connection with the letting does not exceed the threshold for the year in question. Please refer to IT 70 - A Revenue Guide to Rental Income for further information on this relief.

Maybe the people who live with him are paying guests .
they pay rent every week,and sign a rental agreement .
and pay a percentage of the esb and gas bills .

Senecio

OP. I'll start by saying that I haven't read the full thread, so I've no idea what other advice you've been given.

I met my wife under the same circumstances. She had saved a deposit in her early 20's while I was spending it on cars and nights out. Even though we were pretty serious by the time it came she had always said she wanted to do this in her own name and I respected that. At the same time I also wanted to feel as though I was contributing to the household.

This was our solution. We kept separate bank accounts and the mortgage always came out of hers. We then set up a joint account. I matched her mortgage repayments from my account into the joint account. All household bills were paid from the joint account, everything. Anything left in the joint account was considered our money and was spent doing things together. The agreement was that if we ever separated any money in the joint account would be split 50/50. It worked well for us until we got married and did away with individual accounts.

athtrasna

riclad wrote: »

I know a landlord has 3 tenants, he sends a tax return under the rent a room scheme .
he gives em rent books ,reciepts, i,m not a lawyer .
i would regard them as tenants .

I lived there ,i paid rent for 3 years .
His girlfriend lives 3 miles away .
The rent a room scheme is on revenue .ie ,
rent a room, tax free up to 12k. http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/it/rental-income.html#section3

Rent-a-Room Relief

An individual who lets a room (or rooms) in his or her sole or main residence as residential accommodation may be exempt from income tax in respect of income from the letting where the aggregate of the gross rents and any sums for meals or other services supplied in connection with the letting does not exceed the threshold for the year in question. Please refer to IT 70 - A Revenue Guide to Rental Income for further information on this relief.

Maybe the people who live with him are paying guests .
they pay rent every week,and sign a rental agreement .
and pay a percentage of the esb and gas bills .

By law they are licensees not tenants. This has been said repeatedly in this and other threads.

endacl

athtrasna wrote: »

By law they are licensees not tenants. This has been said repeatedly in this and other threads.

It doesn't work. There's an immunity to information.

riclad

Ok, I believe you .I,m not a legal expert .
i happen to know 4 landlords,
whose main income is rental income .

quote ,

By law they are licensees not tenants.

i presume you mean they are licensees not tenants.
as they live in the same house as the landlord .
he sends in a tax return every year ,in regard to his rental income from his
3 licensee,s ,under the regulation re the rent a room scheme .
He does not have to pay tax as the income is under 12k per year.

BabysCoffee

Would it not be more sense to charge him the going rate for the room.

By charging him half of the mortgage payment I would think he could make a case that he is entitled to half the house.

Eric Cartman

BabysCoffee wrote: »

Would it not be more sense to charge him the going rate for the room.

By charging him half of the mortgage payment I would think he could make a case that he is entitled to half the house.

Going rate probably exceeds half the mortgage payment so a bit of a moot point.

Is the general concensus here that you cant have an intimate relationship with somebody and live with them for over 5 years and still 100% own all your stuff at the end ?

Exclamation Marc

If I was living with my girlfriend rent-free I'd honestly feel like I was taking her for a total mug.

I'm 30, have a mortgage and am currently living in an apartment with a licensee. Next year I hope to move my girlfriend in. We've briefly spoken about it but she has agreed to pay rent towards the mortgage, with no problem whatsoever. Whether she's living with me, friends or with strangers, she'll be paying rent, so it might as well go towards the mortgage.

At the end of the day, you're the one who put the deposit down on the property so you shouldn't feel bad for taking rent, and as your boyfriend has agreed to, then happy days.

I don't think your boyfriend will have too much of a problem signing an agreement that he will not claim beneficial ownership after 5 years. He couldn't claim beneficial ownership in a rented property so there's not a huge difference and as your relationship is only 2 years old, its not a massive insult. Perhaps insert a clause in the agreement that your boyfriend will only take beneficial ownership on him contributing a matching deposit to what you have put down sometime after the five year period, if it is agreeable to both sides when said future deposit is made. At least that gives you five years to feel out the relationship and it shows the intent that down the road, you're happy to co-own provided that the investment is equal.

Jen44

I bought a house when I was 22 myself and my boyfriend were only young and not ready to move in together at the time so when I was 25 he moved in. The way we did it I paid the mortgage and he paid all the bills and groceries which amounted to the same amount I paid for the mortgage. It suited us great. We have just bought a second house now together as we are married now three years and have a baby. One thing I will say is that we were together five years when he moved in and pretty sure we were going to stay together. It could get messy if you and your partner go separate ways so perhaps it would make sense to treat him as you would a tenant until perhaps a few years down the line and your circumstances are more secure.

endacl

Jen44 wrote: »

I bought a house when I was 22 myself and my boyfriend were only young and not ready to move in together at the time so when I was 25 he moved in. The way we did it I paid the mortgage and he paid all the bills and groceries which amounted to the same amount I paid for the mortgage. It suited us great. We have just bought a second house now together as we are married now three years and have a baby. One thing I will say is that we were together five years when he moved in and pretty sure we were going to stay together. It could get messy if you and your partner go separate ways so perhaps it would make sense to treat him as you would a tenant until perhaps a few years down the line and your circumstances are more secure.

Again....

OP can't 'treat him as you would a tenant'. Unless she buys the house and doesn't move in herself.

Does anybody read beyond post #1 anymore?

iguana

SarahMollie wrote: »

Thanks Mrs O'Bumble!

If we're together a further 5 years (that would be 7 in total) and I havent got a ring on my finger, he'd be long since out on his ear! We're not getting any younger

I'm open to correction on this but I think if you have been living together for a total of 5 years he could have a claim on your assets. Not 5 years living in the property itself.

endacl

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Is the general concensus here that you cant have an intimate relationship with somebody and live with them for over 5 years and still 100% own all your stuff at the end ?

Short answer: no, but...
Long answer: depends.

omega666

When I’ve moved in to my OH house I payed half the morgage,bills etc...
Id wouldn’t expect anything else really.

As far asking your partner to sign an agreement to the effect that you’re not going to fleece them in 5 years. Your basically telling your partner that you don’t trust him/her. Your probably in the wrong relationship if that's something you need to even consider.

wowy

iguana wrote: »

I'm open to correction on this but I think if you have been living together for a total of 5 years he could have a claim on your assets. Not 5 years living in the property itself.

Yes, AFAIK it is 5 years together rather than just 5 years in the OP's house, as long as the boyfriend can prove that he qualifies as a dependent cohabitant.

As I posted above, it's possible for both parties in the relationship to sign a voluntary agreement where the boyfriend could renounce his 5-year entitlements under the Act.

Chemical Byrne

Manufactured Miracle wrote: »

I don't think your boyfriend will have too much of a problem signing an agreement that he will not claim beneficial ownership after 5 years. He couldn't claim beneficial ownership in a rented property so there's not a huge difference and as your relationship is only 2 years old, its not a massive insult. Perhaps insert a clause in the agreement that your boyfriend will only take beneficial ownership on him contributing a matching deposit to what you have put down sometime after the five year period, if it is agreeable to both sides when said future deposit is made. At least that gives you five years to feel out the relationship and it shows the intent that down the road, you're happy to co-own provided that the investment is equal.

Rubbish. A person cannot sign away their statutory rights.
Such an agreement wouldn't be worth the paper it's written on in court no matter how flowery and legalese the language in it is. Legislation trumps all.
This sort of shacking up prenup is a waste of time. End of.

Chemical Byrne

Would an option be to buy your house and rent it out, then rent another house yourself for you and your bf?

Also, out of interest what would be the situation where a bf/gf moves into a house owned by one of them and live there say 3 yrs. Then they move to a new house to live. Does the 3 years carry over or does the 5 years start again.

What about if one of them owns a house but has it rented out and they live together in another house they've rented. After 5 years would the OH have a claim on the house their bf/gf owns despite the fact that neither of them live there.

This has to be one of the most draconian and unfair laws I've ever seen. It truely is bonkers. But it sure would make you think and check whether your OH is right for you before shacking up.

wowy

Chemical Byrne wrote: »

Rubbish. A person cannot sign away their statutory rights.
Such an agreement wouldn't be worth the paper it's written on in court no matter how flowery and legalese the language in it is. Legislation trumps all.
This sort of shacking up prenup is a waste of time. End of.

Look above to the link from citizens info I posted last night. A person can agree to sign away their rights.

wowy

endacl wrote: »

Does anybody read beyond post #1 anymore?

I'm beginning to think not....

Flatzie_poo

Hey I'm a bit late to the party, but I'm going to give my 2 cents. As I'm in the exact same position as you.

Been with my girlfriend 1.5 years, and have just gone sale agreed on a property. I'm the only one on the mortgage application (Celtic Tiger stupidity on her part has left a bad credit rating.)

You have to decide whether the person you're moving in with is worth the risk involved of a messy breakdown. Personally, I'm under no doubt my girlfriend is. I can't tell the future, but I can judge on the past and present, and she is someone I can see myself starting a family with.

Do the same your side. Do you see yourself with him for the next 5, 10 or 15 years? It's a massive risk. we both have to be 100%, with all your knowledge at present, is the person worth this risk?

I don't hesitate to answer that one. A definite yes.

Could I regret it? Maybe. Time will tell. I'll learn the hard way if I need to.

As Homer Simpson says.. "Life is all about stupid risks"

Is he long term material? He'll get half the house. True. If he pays half the mortgage, then you break up, he'll get half of the mortgage liability too...

Chemical Byrne

Apologies, I see the link to CI now.

That's all fair enough on there but I see that it mentions that a "financially dependent" partner may seek redress. How do they decide who is/is not financially dependent? The way I see it, if both parties are working and on similar salaries then neither of them are financially dependent on eachother?

Also, what would the situation be regarding redress under this act if the owner of the house was on salary X and the live in partner was on salary 2X or 3 X. Surely the live in partner of much greater means could not be considered financially dependent in any real sense. Would they still be entitled to gold dig their worse off OH for a cut of the house?

Peregrinus

There are two separate issues here:

1. If they live together for long enough, and then split up, he can make a claim on her assets under the Civil Partnership and Certain Rights and Obligations of Cohabitants Act 2010. He cannot sign this right away in advance. Note that he can make a claim; the claim will not necessarily succeed. That depends on the facts and circumstances.

2. If he contributes financially, directly or indirectly, to the purchase of the house, and they later split up, he can claim that his contributions have secured him an equitable share in the ownership of the house ("beneficial ownership"). Contributions could be half the mortgage payment, or contributions by way of rent, or him paying grocery and utility bills while she pays the mortgage - almost anything. His argument for a beneficial ownership is stronger if the finances are such that, realistically, she couldn't have afforded to buy the house without someone to make contributions like this, but that's not essential.

Again, he can make this claim; it will not necessarily succeed.

He can sign this right away in advance but, really, she wuld want him to be independently legally advised in doing so.

SarahMollie

OP here

Few points to answer/clarify;

- I don't want to buy my house and then live elsewhere. I'm buying it because i love it and want to live there. I don't want to become a landlord.
- under the new arrangement my bf certainly won't lose out relative to either our current rental arrangement/ the market in south Dublin. He'll actually save about €150 per month at least, and will also be living in a bigger property in a better location.
- we both have good jobs and earn roughly the same amount. Thanks to some prudent savings over the years (including predating my relationship) i have a considerable deposit and will have approx 40% equity from the outset. This is also how I'm able keep his contribution for half a 3 bed house at less than what our current 2 bed rented apartment is costing him.
- He also has significant savings and could easily afford a deposit on a place if he wished. He is not my dependent.
- I don't actually have any serious doubts over the relationship but i do live in the real world and know that breakups are a fact of life unfortunately. Sometimes, depending on the circumstances, people behave out of character if they are hurt.
- If this were back in the days where people paid nominal deposits and have 98% mortgages, I'd be less bothered, but the fact is I'm basically putting the majority of my saving in here, so I'm the one assuming all the risk.
- In his mind, there was never any doubt that he would contribute. He wouldn't want me to facilitate him living rent free and in his own words "wouldn't want to be seen as a mooch"

To reiterate, this is something I've wanted to do since before we even met and I'd no idea how things would work out, so I kept house hunting. We're very happy and thankfully things are going great. All being well, we can both trade up in a few years and together get a forever home. He's definitely long term material