BANGERNOMICS (sub2k) of the week/day

GvidoR

It's better to remove the date altogether.

JohnBoy26

CianRyan wrote: »

I think it's a D16, not the B16 in the Civic's. If I'm right it'll have 130bhp and they only weight about 1000kg or a little more so while no Type R it won't be a bore either.

I'll do some googling.

Nothing really special about the 1.6d series engine. It's as reliable as engines get and it's got good performance for a regular 1.6 but if you're expecting this engine to be fun I think you'll be disappointed. It's worlds apart from a b16 tbh.

If you're just going for a sohc 1.6 you might be better off with a civic coupe.

CianRyan

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

Nothing really special about the 1.6d series engine. It's as reliable as engines get and it's got good performance for a regular 1.6 but if you're expecting this engine to be fun I think you'll be disappointed. It's worlds apart from a b16 tbh.

If you're just going for a sohc 1.6 you might be better off with a civic coupe.

I wouldn't be too worried about straight out performance to be honest, my MX5 will be the one to build as a pocket rocket. I just have a thing for a Teg at the moment, I've always wanted one.
I'd be happy to just have it as an interesting daily driver and later down the line, trade it up for a DC2 if I felt that way inclined.


Good shout with the EK4 box, cheap enough way to liven it up!

alias no.9

Long Time Lurker wrote: »

Ah the lancia dedra. Fiat uno switch gear, 1960s engine, 1980s Italian build quality and delusions of being a BMW competitor. Funnier than Rover trying to be Merc. Unique? Yes. Fun? Probably. Ultimately shiote all the same. Think Fiat Tempra with a wood dash :-)

I've probably awoken some deep buried dragons with that comment. Fully expect the defenders of the realm to turn up shortly with more varsity than an Audi jacket wearing 99 felt spec Golf TDI owner being all protective of VAG products.

Shock horror, 1980s car has 1980s plastics and interior. Original Fiat Uno switch gear was short stalk paddles projecting out from pods either side of the instrument binnacle with a few push buttons on the pods. The Mk2 came into being after the Dedra.
The Tipo platform strategy became the benchmark for pretty much all mass market manufacturers and derivatives were in production for nearly 25 years, can't have been all that bad.
I wouldn't recommend that car to a friend but would be happy to drive one for a while which is a fundamental tenet of the thread and do you know what, if it broke, I'd get out, walk away and leave it there with no regrets.
You mentioned BMW, the E30 was the contemporary 3 series at launch you'll find pros and cons of each but the E36 launched soon after completely outclassed the Dedra in most everything. The Dedra wasn't really a competitor but it existed as an alternative because not everyone wants a 3 series, we've too few alternatives these days.

JohnBoy26

CianRyan wrote: »

I wouldn't be too worried about straight out performance to be honest, my MX5 will be the one to build as a pocket rocket. I just have a thing for a Teg at the moment, I've always wanted one.
I'd be happy to just have it as an interesting daily driver and later down the line, trade it up for a DC2 if I felt that way inclined.


Good shout with the EK4 box, cheap enough way to liven it up!

I wouldn't bother with a box out of a civic, I don't think you'll gain much if anything.

The integra is a nice car to be fair. It's not that the car itself isn't interesting. I think they are. Like most Hondas of that era it's got the double wishbone suspension so handling is excellent and they are good to drive.

Long Time Lurker

200 quid to clear. No Nct needed. Cheap tax too and its depreciation proof. LPG conversion in the boot.

http://cars.donedeal.ie/view/10884911

selectamatic

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

I wouldn't bother with a box out of a civic, I don't think you'll gain much if anything.

The integra is a nice car to be fair. It's not that the car itself isn't interesting. I think they are. Like most Hondas of that era it's got the double wishbone suspension so handling is excellent and they are good to drive.

It's surprising enough the difference the box makes especially since the 1.6 sohc engines are generally mated to extremely economy orientated boxes (long gears)
Ordinary box out of a 1.4 Irish hatch is a grand little upgrade shorter gears better suited to n/a performance not economy.
The long geared boxes are known to sap performance this was really seen in the case of the Honda mb6 vti-s where the car has a habit of dropping out of vtec between shifts.
Ek4 boxes will be dearer and an unnecessary upgrade the 1.4 ones are grand and a good bit better than the 1.6 sohc boxes

Red Kev

Old Skool Lancer for €750. Has an NCT, but doesn't say for how long. Rock solid apart from that.

http://cars.donedeal.ie/vintagecars-for-sale/mitsubishi-lancer/10320678?offset=8

Long Time Lurker wrote: »

200 quid to clear. No Nct needed. Cheap tax too and its depreciation proof. LPG conversion in the boot.

http://cars.donedeal.ie/view/10884911

That needs an NCT, it's a 1980. Arse is sagging which is a bad sign, the self levelling suspension is on the way out. Also has flecks of rust beneath the lights and on the boot which means approach with caution. I looked at it, but its suspiciously cheap.

If it was any good the owner would drive it back to Holland as its worth a lot more there.

acronym Chilli

Long Time Lurker wrote: »

200 quid to clear. No Nct needed. Cheap tax too and its depreciation proof. LPG conversion in the boot.

http://cars.donedeal.ie/view/10884911

What sort of fuel costs would that have?

joujoujou

2003 C class, diesel, auto, leather, NCT 04/16, 2 grand.

http://cars.donedeal.ie/cars-for-sale/mercedes-c-class-avantgarde/10722072

2004 passat, diesel, NCT 06/16, 1895 €.

http://cars.donedeal.ie/cars-for-sale/2004-vw-passat1-9-diesel/10716783

Long Time Lurker

alias no.9 wrote: »

Shock horror, 1980s car has 1980s plastics and interior. Original Fiat Uno switch gear was short stalk paddles projecting out from pods either side of the instrument binnacle with a few push buttons on the pods. The Mk2 came into being after the Dedra.
The Tipo platform strategy became the benchmark for pretty much all mass market manufacturers and derivatives were in production for nearly 25 years, can't have been all that bad.
I wouldn't recommend that car to a friend but would be happy to drive one for a while which is a fundamental tenet of the thread and do you know what, if it broke, I'd get out, walk away and leave it there with no regrets.
You mentioned BMW, the E30 was the contemporary 3 series at launch you'll find pros and cons of each but the E36 launched soon after completely outclassed the Dedra in most everything. The Dedra wasn't really a competitor but it existed as an alternative because not everyone wants a 3 series, we've too few alternatives these days.

But the Dedra wasn't even alternative. It was just shiote. Alternative is grand if that's what you offer but a Dedra was the Italians version of Roveresque cynicism. They didn't market it as a Renault 19 rivial which it essentially was, they flogged it as a premium sports saloon and that's the reason Lancia died. Not because people wanted the brand to disappear but because the rolled out dung like this. People aren't stupid (well apart from Italian product planners who figured they'd get away with this)

It's all well and good extolling the virtues of some long lost forgotten brand that once made completely alternative vehicles and very well at that. Its a different thing altogether trying to be different just for the sake of being different. A Dedra was crap. Crap interior, crap reliability, an insult to the wonderful badge adorning its grille. I'll lament the the fact that we'll never see the likes of an Aurelia or Gamma coupe again but a Dedra! A humongous stinking pile of cynical, badly made, unreliable unpolished turd. Nah I'll pass thanks :-)

Long Time Lurker

acronym Chilli wrote: »

What sort of fuel costs would that have?

Not sure really. Back of an envelope sum here but normally that machine would give mid 20s to the gallon. Take the factvthat LPG is gonna save you 30-40% efficiency and it would be like running a car that returns early to mid 30s maybe.

Someone else pointed out that it dies need ana NCT. My mistake I thought 1980 and back were NCT exempt.

alias no.9

Long Time Lurker wrote: »

But the Dedra wasn't even alternative. It was just shiote. Alternative is grand if that's what you offer but a Dedra was the Italians version of Roveresque cynicism. They didn't market it as a Renault 19 rivial which it essentially was, they flogged it as a premium sports saloon and that's the reason Lancia died. Not because people wanted the brand to disappear but because the rolled out dung like this. People aren't stupid (well apart from Italian product planners who figured they'd get away with this)

It's all well and good extolling the virtues of some long lost forgotten brand that once made completely alternative vehicles and very well at that. Its a different thing altogether trying to be different just for the sake of being different. A Dedra was crap. Crap interior, crap reliability, an insult to the wonderful badge adorning its grille. I'll lament the the fact that we'll never see the likes of an Aurelia or Gamma coupe again but a Dedra! A humongous stinking pile of cynical, badly made, unreliable unpolished turd. Nah I'll pass thanks :-)

Again, I'm not saying the Dedra was any good, but the interior space was a match for anything at the time, the same platform underpinned the Alfa 155 and further evolved to underpin the 156, should they be described as Renault Megane rivals?

Long Time Lurker

alias no.9 wrote: »

Again, I'm not saying the Dedra was any good, but the interior space was a match for anything at the time, the same platform underpinned the Alfa 155 and further evolved to underpin the 156, should they be described as Renault Megane rivals?

Yeah but none of that makes it sensible bangernomics. A dedra is a bucket of shiote. It will break, all the time and its expensive to run relative to its contemporary opppnents. Its not even bangernomics if its free. And to add insult to injury the type of people who can supply you parts to keep this weapon on the road are even more delusional than the people who engineered it in the first place especially when it comes to the pricing of parts.

The same false delusional sense of elusiveness and exotica that lovers of these crap boxes seem to proliferate also applies to the people who want to sell you a wing mirror for one at €900 just because its a Lancia, so that makes it rare, so that makes every part worth bazillions. You see it all the time in Ireland.

This car is not bangernomics. Its fine if you're a devotee and you fancy keeping one going for ever because you liked them. I certainly won't condemn anyone for that. I've been that eejit myself many a time. Infact I'm currently suffering from a dose of it at the moment myself. Its admirable, chaotic, laudable, romantic and down right idiotic given the cars some of us decide to persevere with. It still doesn't make it bangernomics. In fact these would be a classic case of the complete opposite. Financial Suicide -onomics :-)

alias no.9

Long Time Lurker wrote: »

Yeah but none of that makes it sensible bangernomics. A dedra is a bucket of shiote. It will break, all the time and its expensive to run relative to its contemporary opppnents. Its not even bangernomics if its free. And to add insult to injury the type of people who can supply you parts to keep this weapon on the road are even more delusional than the people who engineered it in the first place especially when it comes to the pricing of parts.

The same false delusional sense of elusiveness and exotica that lovers of these crap boxes seem to proliferate also applies to the people who want to sell you a wing mirror for one at €900 just because its a Lancia, so that makes it rare, so that makes every part worth bazillions. You see it all the time in Ireland.

This car is not bangernomics. Its fine if you're a devotee and you fancy keeping one going for ever because you liked them. I certainly won't condemn anyone for that. I've been that eejit myself many a time. Infact I'm currently suffering from a dose of it at the moment myself. Its admirable, chaotic, laudable, romantic and down right idiotic given the cars some of us decide to persevere with. It still doesn't make it bangernomics. In fact these would be a classic case of the complete opposite. Financial Suicide -onomics :-)

Bangernomics always involves a gamble. Being prepared to walk away is crucial. I left my last motor behind 200 miles from home with gearbox failure. My money was better spent on another motor than repairing / replacing the gearbox and that car was from the VAG stable with their fabled Teutonic Engineering, ironically though it was a Japanese auto box that failed. The replacement Volvo has been bangernomics excellence, its looking like I'll never see the end of it.

My last word on the Lancia, drive it until something breaks, then sell the two wing mirrors to cover your costs and scrap the rest, perfect bangernomics!

jca

acronym Chilli wrote: »

What sort of fuel costs would that have?

The Dutch lpg filler is different to ours just make sure he has the correct adapter or you could have many a frustrating day trying to track one down. The car looks like a heap of scrap to me.

JohnBoy26

selectamatic wrote: »

It's surprising enough the difference the box makes especially since the 1.6 sohc engines are generally mated to extremely economy orientated boxes (long gears)
Ordinary box out of a 1.4 Irish hatch is a grand little upgrade shorter gears better suited to n/a performance not economy.
The long geared boxes are known to sap performance this was really seen in the case of the Honda mb6 vti-s where the car has a habit of dropping out of vtec between shifts.
Ek4 boxes will be dearer and an unnecessary upgrade the 1.4 ones are grand and a good bit better than the 1.6 sohc boxes

Is there really that much between them though in day to day driving? I had a 1.5 VTEC e civic(which is suppose to be long geared) and a 1.4 civic and I didn't notice any real difference between them. 5th gear in both was only good for cruising too.

Long Time Lurker

jca wrote: »

The Dutch lpg filler is different to ours just make sure he has the correct adapter or you could have many a frustrating day trying to track one down. The car looks like a heap of scrap to me.

Looks like a heap of scrap!

Looks a bit tired. Scrap? Bit of an over statement, no!

Red Kev

acronym Chilli wrote: »

What sort of fuel costs would that have?

10-12 l/100 Km easy driving out of town. 14 l/100 Km if you start to move it a bit.

Thats as a petrol, no idea what the LPG would bring. The car looks like a bit of a dog tbh. Cheap for a W123 estate but has the ring of a money pit about it.

jca

Long Time Lurker wrote: »

Looks like a heap of scrap!

Looks a bit tired. Scrap? Bit of an over statement, no!

When that model Merc starts to look a bit tired it's usually doomed unless the buyer is prepared to sink a good few quids into it, not really the bangernomics way. Nothing lasts forever including old Mercs...

selectamatic

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

Is there really that much between them though in day to day driving? I had a 1.5 VTEC e civic(which is suppose to be long geared) and a 1.4 civic and I didn't notice any real difference between them. 5th gear in both was only good for cruising too.

Ah there's a nice difference alright but now it's not massive or world changing either but it'd definitely be a worthwhile mod for livening up a 1.6sohc. It's the little improvements that count a lot in small displacement n/a's.
Now I don't wanna go all pub/McDonald's carpark talk but there was a young fella round these parts that had a little 1.4 civic saloon with the good 1.4 engine that has up on 100bhp (most Irish ones are 75bhp due to a restrictive intake mani) and he could pull a couple of car lengths on the 1.6 soch civics from a dig I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't seen it for myself but the longer 3rd and 4th really kills the 1.6's acceleration. The micra stock car boys swear by the close geared 1.0 box even when they're running the 1.3/4 engine most even say the difference is comparable to a set of aftermarket cams. All of the above won't be too noticeable in everyday driving but shur everyday driving is no fun :P

colm_mcm

The 1.0 micra box is ridiculous even on a 1.0

selectamatic

Very true it's not something I'd recomended if someone was using their micra for any kind of long journeys or 120kmph+ cruising but for outright acceleration purposes it's a great box (a lightened flywheel is a fine addition too) I've seen a few stock cars/auto grass cars go down the strip at tullow over the years and it is amazing how effective the combination of lightness, moderate power (anything around 100bhp) and close gears is. Nothing funnier than seeing 1.3n/a starlets/micra's etc putting it up to more powerful cars.

colm_mcm

Back in the day when I had the 3.0 jag, herself was commuting on the motorway to work in her 1.0 micra and was doing worse mpg than I was.

selectamatic

colm_mcm wrote: »

Back in the day when I had the 3.0 jag, herself was commuting on the motorway to work in her 1.0 micra and was doing worse mpg than I was.

Top gears test with the m3 following the Prius comes to mind the motorways are no place for short geared cars if admirable mpg figures are wanted unless of course a steady 60mph is adhered to. 70mph is generally a bridge to far if rpm's are to be kept sensible

166man

colm_mcm wrote: »

Back in the day when I had the 3.0 jag, herself was commuting on the motorway to work in her 1.0 micra and was doing worse mpg than I was.

Jag was a great example of that with the 5 speed box. I remember mid to high thirties the second time we drove it home


That Dodge I had used to be doing 1650rpm at 80mph....Got excellent fuel consumption as a result!

millington

selectamatic wrote: »

They're not a bad car alright decent ish performance from the sohc engine it's the gearbox that kills them (most of Hondas sohc powered cars have gears that are too long) they were designed this way for economy. From what I hear the box outta Irish 1.4ek's livens them up a good bit and a lightened flywheel always helps. Compared to a 1.6ils civic coupe they're a much nicer car but insurance is the drawback for younger drivers.

Edit: the d16 engines are the best for turbo ing too some interesting builds stateside with good power figures. A well built turbo teg dc1 would certainly have a unique appeal. And the longer gears in the box are well suited to turbo applications.
Edit 2: forgot to mention not all dc1's are vtec. The vtec ones are more powerful than the non vtec ones.

DC1s aren't D16 they're ZC and 130bhp. All of which are VTEC, except the early bugeye dual carb models.

Anyway, great cars. Not much out there better for the money in terms of looks, power, reliability and tuning scope!

Also, Irish 1.4 EK boxes are just as woeful, it's an old S20 out of an EG3 that has the shorter ratios.

selectamatic wrote: »

Ah there's a nice difference alright but now it's not massive or world changing either but it'd definitely be a worthwhile mod for livening up a 1.6sohc. It's the little improvements that count a lot in small displacement n/a's.
Now I don't wanna go all pub/McDonald's carpark talk but there was a young fella round these parts that had a little 1.4 civic saloon with the good 1.4 engine that has up on 100bhp (most Irish ones are 75bhp due to a restrictive intake mani) and he could pull a couple of car lengths on the 1.6 soch civics from a dig I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't seen it for myself but the longer 3rd and 4th really kills the 1.6's acceleration. The micra stock car boys swear by the close geared 1.0 box even when they're running the 1.3/4 engine most even say the difference is comparable to a set of aftermarket cams. All of the above won't be too noticeable in everyday driving but shur everyday driving is no fun :P

Prefacelift UK/Irish EJ9s were 90bhp from a D14A4, facelifts were only 75bhp with a D14Z2 engine.

Red Kev

1999 225 BHP Quattro. New NCT 09/16. €2250, so possibly €2K with haggling. Has 4 new tyres, check the brand to see how well it's been looked after.
Hard to believe this shape is 17 years old.

http://cars.donedeal.ie/cars-for-sale/99-audi-tt-1-8t-225bhp-new-nct-mint-condition/10889537?offset=1




Audi 80 TDI. 08/16. €1250. Very reliable, very few electronics to go wrong, well rust proofed. Comfy as well. Great car for long, economical commutes.

http://cars.donedeal.ie/vintagecars-for-sale/audi-80-1-9-tdi-nct-08-16/10812836?offset=3




1985 316, original Irish car which is rare. €56 tax per annum, NCT 08/16. Insurance will be very cheap as a second car. €2500, so it's a bit over Bangernomics even with haggling, but the cheaper running costs over 2-3 years will make up for it. Parts are readily available and cheap from abroad.

http://cars.donedeal.ie/vintagecars-for-sale/bmw-e30-1985-irish-car-nct-and-tax-56-a-year/10758740?offset=2

jimgoose

166man wrote: »

Jag was a great example of that with the 5 speed box. I remember mid to high thirties the second time we drove it home ...

If you stick a 3l with that Fordson tractor 'box into fifth at about 100mph and leave it there, it'll sip fuel and surprise you on a long-ish highway run. :cool:

Duke O Smiley

http://cars.donedeal.ie/vintagecars-for-sale/mercedes-e200-quotbargain-quot/10897350?offset=3


Not really bangernomics with such short test but tax and test to see you through Christmas and blue leather - €500