Abortion Discussion, Part Trois

aloyisious

volchitsa wrote: »

I know something of this from firsthand experience, unfortunately : when my father, who had a terminal cancer, could no longer eat and drink, the hospital staff made it quite clear to us that our request to have him put on a drip would be refused.

We only wanted a few more days until my brothers could get back from abroad, but they said that it was not that simple, because once someone is on life support, or even just a drip (which was all that was required in our case, since he was breathing fine, then the decision to take him off is a lot more complicated legally than a refusal to put them on it in the first place

So yes, very much like smothering them with a pillow I suppose.

I'm sorry to hear of your family heartbreak and the medical situation involved.

I think the last sentence above of smothering was in reference to a pregnant woman taking abortion-inducing pills to abort the feotus in her womb, contrary to Irish law.

volchitsa

aloyisious wrote: »

I'm sorry to hear of your family heartbreak and the medical situation involved.

I think the last sentence above of smothering was in reference to a pregnant woman taking abortion-inducing pills to abort the feotus in her womb, contrary to Irish law.

Thanks. Those last few days weren't the worst actually. But it did seem a terribly harsh approach at the time.

The parts of the discussion I saw were about aborting a fetus with FFA and whether that is similar to withdrawing life support from a terminally ill patient. The claim was that this was an allowable "negative" action whereas ending a pregnancy required a "positive" action.

My point is that withdrawing life support is not just a "non action", legally, it's an action, and is not always allowed even when the person is known to be dying. My father died three days later, but of course with no water that's unsurprising.

However I'm not making any comparison between that and a woman ending a pregnancy, which IMO is completely different from hastening the death of an existing person.

robdonn

volchitsa wrote: »

However I'm not making any comparison between that and a woman ending a pregnancy, which IMO is completely different from hastening the death of an existing person.

That's pretty much the point I was trying to make. Apologies if I came across as implying that taking someone off life support was in any way easy, emotionally or legally.

aloyisious

It was silly of me not to think of this NSFW-type notice. Please note that the woman's relating her story could be upsetting for you, so don't read it if you think it might affect you....

The thoughts and feeling of a woman expressed openly on her experience of having to travel to the UK recently for an abortion as her feotus had FFA and she couldn't get an abortion here.... http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/it-was-horrendous-so-scary-woman-whose-son-had-fatal-foetal-abnormality-pleads-with-tds-406720.html

There's this as well referring to Wed so I must conclude it predates Simon's response to the AG's advice. http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/ag-set-to-say-abortion-bill-is-unconstitutional-406468.html

Re the Brexit, i hope it doesn't complicate travel arrangements to the UK any further than they are for pregnant women after the split becomes legal following on from paperwork crossing the T's and dotting the I's on the UK's leaving the EU.

robdonn

So with the UK leaving the EU, another barrier has potentially risen for women who need to travel to have an abortion. The Common Travel Area will soon have an EU border running through it.

Cabaal

http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2016/06/24/brexit-how-this-will-effect-your-upcoming-abortion/

Brexit: How This Will Effect Your Upcoming Abortion

aloyisious

WW is def on the ball....

France is longer away (I think) by ferry as used in the story above. French law allows for abortion on demand twelve (12) weeks after conception (14 weeks after last menstrual period) since the Veil law in 1975. Choice Ireland has more info.

recedite

robdonn wrote: »

So with the UK leaving the EU, another barrier has potentially risen for women who need to travel to have an abortion. The Common Travel Area will soon have an EU border running through it.

Eh.. no it just makes abortions cheaper.
If "the EU border" between Libya and Italy is not being enforced, it will hardly be enforced between Ireland and Britain. The Common Travel Area predates the EU and is here to stay.

robdonn

recedite wrote: »

robdonn wrote: »

So with the UK leaving the EU, another barrier has potentially risen for women who need to travel to have an abortion. The Common Travel Area will soon have an EU border running through it.

Eh.. no it just makes abortions cheaper.
If "the EU border" between Libya and Italy is not being enforced, it will hardly be enforced between Ireland and Britain. The Common Travel Area predates the EU and is here to stay.

The Common Travel Area has never existed with one of us in the EU and the other one out, we don't know how it will work out.

MrPudding

robdonn wrote: »

The Common Travel Area has never existed with one of us in the EU and the other one out, we don't know how it will work out.

And whilst neither Ireland nor Britain might want border checks, it might not be up to them.

MrP

PopePalpatine

Have the Legatus Lackeys said anything about "Brexit saves the unborn from perfidious Albion!" or some bullsh*t like that?

recedite

If the EU ever gets round to forming a "border guard" it will be deployed at Greece and Italy and Spain.

The UK for their part, will have no need to restrict the CTA from their side of the NI border unless Ireland joins the Schengen area, in which case a Calais style "jungle" camp could spring up between Dundalk and Newry. But as Schengen appears to be dead at this stage, that seems highly improbable.

robdonn

recedite wrote: »

If the EU ever gets round to forming a "border guard" it will be deployed at Greece and Italy and Spain.

The UK for their part, will have no need to restrict the CTA from their side of the NI border unless Ireland joins the Schengen area, in which case a Calais style "jungle" camp could spring up between Dundalk and Newry. But as Schengen appears to be dead at this stage, that seems highly improbable.

That's just wrong. EU citizens can come to Ireland without any hassle, they simply show their passport and they're in. From Dublin they drive an hour north and they can cross over into the UK with no border controls. Schengen only means that they don't need to show a passport or go through a border control. Ireland does have a border control in our airports but it won't stop an EU citizen.

recedite

I'm not talking about EU citizens. I'm talking about people who have wandered into the EU and are trying to make their way to the UK. Up until the Schengen countries re-introduced their own internal national checkpoints, effectively defeating the point of Schengen, such people could wander around the Shengen area freely, which usually got them as far as Calais.

This problem is caused by the EU not having its own external border controls (except the route between Greece and Turkey which Turkey is now being paid to police)

aloyisious

Just saying is all; thinking this UK leaving the EU thingy could be better discussed on the UK leaving the EU thread on the other boards thread. Just a suggestion, I reckon I shouldn't have mentioned the EU travel issue in relation to Brexit

aloyisious

From the U.S. The U.S.S.C - on a 5 to 3 Justices decision, has struck down Texas 2013 anti-abortion law as unconstitutional, overturning 5th Circuit Court ruling on republican-backed law.

http://www.thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/davidbadash/breaking_supreme_court_rules_texas_anti_abortion_law

aloyisious

Is it an insult to Irish women for opponents of abortion here - in particular fellow Irish women - to use the quote "abortion on demand" and Irish women in the same breath?

Do opponents of abortion debating it here think that Irish women see abortion as a consumer item to be available on demand at a whim, or do they think that Irish women are sensible people quite capable of making choices in a commonsense manner, with discrimination, when it comes to selecting what to do about fetus in their wombs?

Would the opponents of abortion here seek the disbarring of Irish women from voting in any referendum on abortion because they think Irish women would be biased in favour of abortion as a consumer item?

Do any opponents of abortion debating here think that, when it comes to fetus with FFA, Irish women should be allowed abortions?

Cabaal

Youth Defense are out in Galway creating a new low



http://www.broadsheet.ie/2016/06/27/meanwhile-in-galway-27/

robdonn

Cabaal wrote: »

Youth Defense are out in Galway creating a new low



http://www.broadsheet.ie/2016/06/27/meanwhile-in-galway-27/

Is that #Abortion or #AbortionDiscriminates ? Either way they need a new marketing manager...

Absolam

aloyisious wrote: »

Is it an insult to Irish women for opponents of abortion here - in particular fellow Irish women - to use the quote "abortion on demand" and Irish women in the same breath?

Probably not, but undoubtedly there are people who would (lacking an argument) try to couch an argument in such terms in order to try and create the perception that such a term is deliberately insulting rather than a common enough term used to relay the concept of unrestricted abortion availability.

aloyisious wrote: »

Do opponents of abortion debating it here think that Irish women see abortion as a consumer item to be available on demand at a whim, or do they think that Irish women are sensible people quite capable of making choices in a commonsense manner, with discrimination, when it comes to selecting what to do about fetus in their wombs?

Again, probably not, but it would seem to be an expansion on your attempted perjoritive above. Probably venturing into strawman territory at this point though, since you seem to be building up an opinion on behalf of people who aren't putting it forward.

aloyisious wrote: »

Would the opponents of abortion here seek the disbarring of Irish women from voting in any referendum on abortion because they think Irish women would be biased in favour of abortion as a consumer item?

Well, the thread is long; this is its third incarnation. You could look and see if they ever have sought such a thing? I do seem to recall a pro choice proponent wanting any referendum to be restricted to women who could have children at one stage.... Though that may not be quite the kind of prejudice you want to hear about?

aloyisious wrote: »

IDo any opponents of abortion debating here think that, when it comes to fetus with FFA, Irish women should be allowed abortions?

Almost certainly a few do; again, you may find they have in fact put that opinion forward on the thread. Probably not even that long ago either.

Cabaal

robdonn wrote: »

Is that #Abortion or #AbortionDiscriminates ? Either way they need a new marketing manager...

Both bits of text are in different colours so I assume its #Abortion and Discriminates is just separate from it

They do indeed need a new marketing manager if they can't even get basic text colour correct

aloyisious

Cabaal wrote: »

Youth Defense are out in Galway creating a new low



http://www.broadsheet.ie/2016/06/27/meanwhile-in-galway-27/

I thought that the Pro-life anti-abortion side argued that with the 8th, everyone DOES have a right to life. Maybe I got that wrong and they believe the life of the 8th is soon not to be guaranteed.

Absolam

aloyisious wrote: »

I thought that the Pro-life anti-abortion side argued that with the 8th, everyone DOES have a right to life. Maybe I got that wrong and they believe the life of the 8th is soon not to be guaranteed.

Going out on a limb here; they may be saying we ought to save the 8th because everyone should have a right to life? If we didn't save the 8th then the unborn wouldn't have a right to life. Is that an unlikely construal?

aloyisious

As I understand Mick Wallace's Bill on abortion for fetus with FFA, it has this written in it with regard to whom
should make a medical determination on the fetus medical status and it's chance of living as an independent
life when born [Mr Wallace’s proposals are that a perinatologist and obstetrician can certify if a foetus is
incompatible with life and that a termination is then allowed].

The above quote of what's in Mick Wallace's bill comes from last Friday's irish Examiner including quotes
from politicians including Simon Harris: https://www.google.ie/urlsa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjdkIXyy8zNAhVhDMAKHYGzAUUQF
ggdMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishexaminer.com%2Fireland%2Fsimon-harris-rejects-mick-wallaces-abortion-bill-as-unconstitutional-406692.html&usg=AFQjCNHAXezRa_AkDLmUUTRBhp3Yfev1VA

The Life Institute has an Ad running on Facebook today claiming that Mick Wallace wants Trisomy children
aborted, showing a photo of a child several years old it say's has trisomy. I have deleted some of the details
on the Instiute facebook post as it included posting from F/B by persons giving different opinions on what the
Institute had in the Ad, including the photo. The reason I deleted the details is that I DO NOT have permission
from those F/B opinion-posters to use their opinions.

Life Institute
June 23 at 1:18pm ·
Mick Wallace TD is pushing abortion for babies with a disability – and hiding behind the cruel and misleading
label of ‘fatal abnormality’. This is Kathleen Rose, she has Trisomy 13, a condition Mr Wallace and others say
is ‘fatal’, yet she is now 9 years old. Every child has a RIGHT to LIFE whatever their disability, and their
families need support and care to spend precious time with them, instead of the cruelty of abortion. ‪


Not being knowledgable about trisomy, I sought relevant medical details online. According to the following
Wikipedia link, there are several types of trisomy. https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwidzvXH2szNAhUFB8AKHYm8BLgQFggrMAE&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FTrisomy&usg=AFQjCNGvsXXzy3tBBYUZHqNeYAWarlESyQ

With reference to the child in the Institute Ad photo, the following link refer's specifically as the child is
said to have trisomy 13, one of the trisomy variants. https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiTys3u1szNAhXIK8AKHaloCgQQFggqMAI&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FPatau_syndrome&usg=AFQjCNEiyqEKV-Bd7JCS2G8jvsx1X3Atig

Absolam

So.... As you understand it the Bill would extend beyond FFA into quality of life decisions (chance of living as an independent life when born ), and people are annoyed that it would allow the termination of unborn children who do not actually have a fatal condition... which sounds accurate from your understanding of the Bill.

I think I'd like to see a copy of the actual Bill before coming to any conclusions myself, but from what you've said it sounds pretty dubious...

robdonn

Absolam wrote: »

I think I'd like to see a copy of the actual Bill before coming to any conclusions myself, but from what you've said it sounds pretty dubious...

I'd also like to read it but I'm coming up blank. The Dáil schedule doesn't have a linked document for it.

lazygal

http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?fn=/documents/bills28/bills/2013/12213/b12213d.pdf

Is it this one?

robdonn

lazygal wrote: »

http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?fn=/documents/bills28/bills/2013/12213/b12213d.pdf

Is it this one?

I think that's it, thanks!

Looking at the wording used I think it is pretty clear what the Bill is intended for.

‘fatal foetal abnormality’ means a medical condition suffered by a foetus such that it is incompatible with life outside the womb;

Cabaal

robdonn wrote: »

I think that's it, thanks!

Looking at the wording used I think it is pretty clear what the Bill is intended for.

won't stop the anti choice crowd from claiming it means something else of course

Absolam

Cabaal wrote: »

won't stop the anti choice crowd from claiming it means something else of course

Sure, you can make claims about what you imagine pro life proponents will do, but we can see what pro choice proponents are doing; aloyisious told us it covered the fetus medical status and it's chance of living as an independent life when born, the Irish Examiner said the Bill also covered rape and incest, and the Bill that Lazygal linked is actually Claire Dalys Bill from 2013, which Mick Wallaces Bill supposedly mirrors, but we don't know if it's exactly the same... So so far most of the dodgy info isn't coming from the pro life side of the floor. Personally I'm happy to wait until I read it before I make any claims about what it means.