Abortion Discussion, Part Trois

Hotblack Desiato

recedite wrote: »

O'Connell is the courageous one, and also a good deal smarter than most of her colleagues there. The flouride debate when she was a councillor is slightly off topic, but hilarious...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wReANdzf3b4

Great seeing her rip those gobshítes to pieces :pac:

Also according to the account, the the CMO did not say constitutional protection was extended to anything capable of being "born alive" but just "born". Which also indicates no scope for FFA abortion.
I agree though, that its not actually a legal opinion. Unless the CMO got it elsewhere from a legal source.

It'd be hard to argue that the 8th offers protection to a foetus incapable of being born alive, the difficulty is in making a diagnosis that live birth is impossible (as opposed to survival for a very short time.)

We need to get rid of the 8th, end of.

aloyisious

Today's online Irish Examiner, statement by Simon Harris on Citizens Assembly on abrtion due as quickly as possible in the Autumn.....

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/citizens-assembly-on-abortion-due-as-quickly-as-possible-in-the-autumn-says-harris-742958.html.

It'll probably turn out that Simon said a bit more in the Dail session where what's in the above report is quoted from, so it's possible that the 6th sentence in the report quoting Simon has to be taken in context of his overall contribution to that session. It's an interesting sentence all the same.

I saw another story in relation to the 8th amendment in the same issue of the Examiner. I suppose an alternative version could be produced by those with alternative thoughts on the issue. http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/dublin-store-sells-out-of-repeal-jumpers-within-an-hour-408131.html

Absolam

recedite wrote: »

My first impression was different, but I would not argue with you on either those points. The whole thing is too far into BS territory anyway. Arguing over whether a miscarriage is born or not, or whether a foetus expelled after the mother has been involved in a car crash is like arguing over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
Likewise with trying to interpret what Harris is trying to say. He's a nice lad, but he has been hoisted too far up the political ladder too soon.

Well, I don't think there's an argument about whether a miscarriage is born of not, I think that the FFA discussion is lending towards a possibility of abortion being permitted where there is no prospect of the unborn surviving birth, as distinct from having a limited life expectancy post birth.

recedite wrote: »

All I'll say about that is "the cabinet" has evolved over time as a feature of the British govt. which has a flexible unwritten constitution. But there is no cabinet in the written Irish constitution and therefore no cabinet, and no "cabinet confidentiality". Despite what the various RTE reporters and numerous govt. ministers would have you believe.

The Supreme Court ruled a long time ago that Article 28.4.2 means that Government meetings are confidential; the term cabinet is simply used to refer to the Government of the day. The 17th Amendment meant that such confidentiality could be breached in specific circumstances.

Absolam

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

It'd be hard to argue that the 8th offers protection to a foetus incapable of being born alive, the difficulty is in making a diagnosis that live birth is impossible (as opposed to survival for a very short time.)

I don't think that's true; the obvious argument is the constitution guarantees a right to life to the unborn, and makes no exception regarding birth. At its simplest, if a child is not born, it may not be killed, and any exception to that must be found in the constitutional provision.

recedite

Absolam wrote: »

the term cabinet is simply used to refer to the Government of the day.

I think you'll find that the term "cabinet" tends to be used to refer to a subset of senior govt. ministers, as picked out by the Taoiseach; a cabaal of the most influential if you like. Whereas "the government" as defined in the constitution comprises all the ministers.

Hotblack Desiato

I've never heard the word 'cabinet' on its own to mean a subset. 'War cabinet' etc would mean a subset. Do you have any examples of this usage, particularly in an Irish context?

aloyisious

The word cabinet is used in media, Oireachtas, popular and official circles as referring to the Taoiseach and his senior Ministers... While the present Dail is the 32nd, the Govt is the 30th. You'll see both listed in the links. It's probably just come about by common usage and acceptance to refer to the Ministers, incl the Taoiseach.

https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiEkPePmNjNAhWID8AKHQktA3MQFggdMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FGovernment_of_the_32nd_D%25C3%25A1il&usg=AFQjCNEyYciuXiScdNZ4gDIKRh4UnbUnVA

https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjDw9vml9jNAhVTFMAKHfzEBY4QFggmMAI&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fpolitics%2Foireachtas%2Flet-s-give-it-a-chance-says-independent-minister-shane-ross-1.2638563&usg=AFQjCNGliZJP0fmr1qWVF-yXpEvFDL4pcQ

.......................................................................................................................................

It seem's the word is also used in reference to committee meetings between the Taoiseach and his Dept Sec, and the secretaries of one or more Govt Depts... That could be seen as a subset. it'd probably irk ministers if they weren't at the meetings and not briefed.

https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiEkPePmNjNAhWID8AKHQktA3MQFgguMAM&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.taoiseach.gov.ie%2Feng%2FTaoiseach_and_Government%2FCabinet_Committees%2FCabinet_Committees_of_the_30th_Government.html&usg=AFQjCNGfi9g-auS8_s8GylWWHc9k0pIfrA

aloyisious

What I'd like to know is if the Ministers are in any way guided in their thoughts on the abortion issue by their spouses. I'd imagine the spouses, as women, would have to have views on such an issue. I'm wondering if the younger FG and other Ministers are getting such guidance.

Edit: corrected my second mention of the word spouses to it's correct spelling, typo in the original.

Loafing Oaf

aloyisious wrote: »

What I'd like to know is if the Ministers are in any way guided in their thoughts on the abortion issue by their spouses. I'd imagine the souses, as women, would have to have views on such an issue. I'm wondering if the younger FG and other Ministers are getting such guidance.

I was about to deride the notion that Simon 'Inbetweener' Harris might have a spouse but apparently there is one in the pipeline:

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/health-minister-simon-harris-pops-the-question-34852190.html:P

aloyisious

I saw/heard this in the online Indo. It's a written article and a Floating Voter podcast rolled into one. The podcast includes interviews with Josepha Madigan, re her bill on reducing divorce waiting time - AND with Niamh Horan a S/Indo journalist on the abortion issue.

As I don't have the technical knowledge & wherefor to cut out the first part of the podcast with Josepha, you'll have to scroll forward on it to avoid the divorce part, if you've a mind to, and cut to the chase with the Niamh interview. Niamh is a fairly straight talking woman. I noted her article in the same issue about ladies gardens and displaying them as proudly as men with beards do their beards.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/floating-voter-podcast-fine-gael-td-wont-go-to-war-with-catholic-church-over-reducing-divorce-wait-time-from-four-years-to-two-34849727.html

Absolam

recedite wrote: »

I think you'll find that the term "cabinet" tends to be used to refer to a subset of senior govt. ministers, as picked out by the Taoiseach; a cabaal of the most influential if you like. Whereas "the government" as defined in the constitution comprises all the ministers.

And yet what we call 'cabinet confidentiality' applies to discussions at meetings of the Government. No matter which sub set of the government one might imagine it ought to refer to from the term.

Absolam

aloyisious wrote: »

What I'd like to know is if the Ministers are in any way guided in their thoughts on the abortion issue by their spouses. I'd imagine the spouses, as women, would have to have views on such an issue. I'm wondering if the younger FG and other Ministers are getting such guidance.
Edit: corrected my second mention of the word spouses to it's correct spelling, typo in the original.

Wouldn't you like to know if the spouses, as men, also guide Ministers? They probably have views too. You might be led to wonder just how much Government policy is guided by spouses in general. Now that is some rabbit hole... A secret spousal Cabaal of unelected men and women guiding the fate of the country. Were they even called to give evidence in the banking enquiry? Questions must be answered!

aloyisious

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/three-ministers-to-vote-for-fatal-foetal-abnormalities-bill-1.2709803

RTE Radio 1 ten o'clock news item re Wallace abortion bill, sounded like Shane Ross stating that the AG's advice was based on her belief that the Wallace bill would not withstand an onslaught in the SC, that he and two independents would vote for the bill. The quote was re-stated by Sean O'Rourke on his show after the news. It's being discussed on that show.

Loafing Oaf

aloyisious wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/three-ministers-to-vote-for-fatal-foetal-abnormalities-bill-1.2709803

RTE Radio 1 ten o'clock news item re Wallace abortion bill, sounded like Shane Ross stating that the AG's advice was based on her belief that the Wallace bill would not withstand an onslaught in the SC, that he and two independents would vote for the bill. The quote was re-stated by Sean O'Rourke on his show after the news. It's being discussed on that show.

Where does this leave their position in government?

Absolam

aloyisious wrote: »

RTE Radio 1 ten o'clock news item re Wallace abortion bill, sounded like Shane Ross stating that the AG's advice was based on her belief that the Wallace bill would not withstand an onslaught in the SC, that he and two independents would vote for the bill. The quote was re-stated by Sean O'Rourke on his show after the news. It's being discussed on that show.

Onslaught?

aloyisious

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Where does this leave their position in government?

Don't know. The independents say that the issue was not included in the deal with Enda, some F/G'ers claim it's part and parcel of being in Govt. Enda might decide to throw the three ministers out.

Reportedly there's an FF angle as well, that FF told Enda they would not oppose the Govt willy-nilly if it had the support of the Indo's. If Enda decides to sack them for not supporting Govt voting policy, then his Govt would be at the mercy of FF goodwill.

Loafing Oaf

http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/vincent-browne-column-abortion-2861500-Jul2016/

Vincent Browne saying Ross is constitutionally obliged not to support the bill. Doesn't spell out the consequences if he goes ahead and Enda doesn't sack him though...

Hotblack Desiato

aloyisious wrote: »

The word cabinet is used in media, Oireachtas, popular and official circles as referring to the Taoiseach and his senior Ministers...

Which is what I was saying.

This is why 'senior' and 'junior' ministers are unfortunate terms to use, senior could mean longest serving or most prestigious, but in the Irish context all ministers can be described as 'senior ministers' because they are not 'junior ministers', aka 'ministers of state', who are not ministers at all.

A minister aka 'senior minister' aka 'cabinet minister' has control of a government department and a vote at cabinet, juniors/MoS have neither although are sometimes allowed attend cabinet meetings.

So still looking for a cite for 'cabinet' in an Irish context, not qualified by another word, being used to include certain ministers but not others.

martingriff

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/vincent-browne-column-abortion-2861500-Jul2016/

Vincent Browne saying Ross is constitutionally obliged not to support the bill. Doesn't spell out the consequences if he goes ahead and Enda doesn't sack him though...

What would happen if they did vote for it and it went through and the AG is right

Also what does it say of what they think of the AG

aloyisious

I think that, unless there's a major rift within FG ministerial ranks we're unaware of, the bill will never pass a vote in the Dail. Simon Harris has stated that the wording in the 8th has to change, so there may be other young FG TD's with opinions different to Enda's opinion. Simon seem's to have been given a higher profile lately in representing the Govt position to the media.

It seem's there's a quote floating around in the nether-world of politics that the independents think the AG's advice to Govt is based on a SC ruling (don't know what one) and not on what's in the 8th, the cause of the "rift" in Govt. The FG ministers speaking to the media all refer to the 8th's wording as making the wording of the Wallace bill invalid in law.

I don't see FF voting for it, they'll probably just abstain in the vote. They've just seen how a vote can boomerang on parties - brexit.

This is an IMO: Re the AG, she can be right in what the law say's in it's wording in 43.3.3 (as amended by the 8th) but if the independents have different legal advice and think she's basing her advice NOT on 40.3.3 (as amended by the 8th) but on something from the SC, they can ignore her advice; "nothing personal". As the SC have no problem with 40.3.3 (as amended) constitutionally, it trump's anything the AG might rely on from the SC.

In any case, regardless of it being the AG offering her requested opinion on the Wallace bill to the Govt, and of her status of being the Govt chief law officer, it's simply her advice to her client (same as to any client by an SC) and one that can be declined by the Govt of the day, regardless of an apparent cost to her reputation. The taking of her advice has to be seen in not only a legal light but a political (continued existence of Govt) light as well. It look's like Enda might have to play along with the independents today in order for him to captain the ship a la FG's way. There are more irons in the fire for him.

Edit: I researched on Shane Ross to see if he had legal training and found zilch. I did find that he started his political career with a senate seat in 1981 for University of Dublin, kept his seat there since and went on to Wicklow Co Co for FG in 1991 before leaving it and going independent in the senate in 1997. He's been around the political block for a long time.

aloyisious

The irish independent's "editor's choice" today. WARNING, it mention s the C-word several times......

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/attorney-general-severely-undermined-by-shane-ross-the-boris-johnson-of-government-34857310.html

volchitsa

Could some kind soul explain to me what is the interest for a pro-choice TD or party in supporting this bill? It's been rejected once already and even if it got to the debate stage it doesn't have the support to pass, and even if it did pass and was judged to be constitutional, its effect would be to allow the 8th to remain on the statute books.

An improvement for families affected by FFA, of course, but hardly enough for legislators, considering all the other issues that the 8th and now POLDP has thrown up.

Or am I missing something here?

Absolam

Being seen to be supportive of a measure of abortion that has polled as being the most palatable circumstance for abortion to the electorate. And therefore supporting it is the least offensive, most vote gathering position any politician can take on the issue; you're pro choice, sympathetic to women in tough circumstances, but not a dangerous liberal intent on tearing down the very foundations of our great country. Winner winner chicken dinner.

aloyisious

volchitsa wrote: »

Could some kind soul explain to me what is the interest for a pro-choice TD or party in supporting this bill? It's been rejected once already and even if it got to the debate stage it doesn't have the support to pass, and even if it did pass and was judged to be constitutional, its effect would be to allow the 8th to remain on the statute books.

An improvement for families affected by FFA, of course, but hardly enough for legislators, considering all the other issues that the 8th and now POLDP has thrown up.

Or am I missing something here?

Highly charged topic most people are opined-on, issue finally seen by TD's as needing their attention due to change of public opinion. Desire for some TD's to seem relevant.

robdonn

The Eighth Amendment
An open letter from Doctors For Choice Ireland in the Irish Times

Sir, – We write to support the hundreds of women a year who experience fatal foetal abnormalities in their pregnancy. We write also to express our respect for the support group Terminations For Medical Reasons and its efforts to secure wider access to abortion services in Ireland. The case of Amanda Mellet, who was refused access to an abortion in Ireland for a fatal foetal abnormality, and the hundreds of women who share that experience every year, is a cause of frustration and shame for the medical profession in Ireland, in that we are powerless to assist a woman undergoing “cruel and inhuman treatment” in the Irish health service, according to the United Nations, because of restrictive laws which lack popular support and are without a medical evidence base.

It is repeatedly stated by anti-choice commentators that the term “fatal foetal abnormality” is not a medical term. Many of the terms used in the debate on access to abortion, such as “unborn child”, are not medical terms. However, in the case of “fatal foetal abnormality”, the 2010 Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists report Termination of Pregnancy for Fetal Abnormality, repeatedly uses the adjectives “fatal” and “lethal” with regard to foetal abnormality. It is therefore not accurate to insist that “fatal foetal abnormality” is not a medical term as this language is clearly used by medical professionals with expertise in this precise area of medical practice. This attempt to undermine the medical legitimacy of what is already a heartbreaking experience is causing hurt and distress and should stop.

The distinction between fatal and non-fatal conditions is often certainly a matter of medical opinion as is generally the case for medical predictions. However, some conditions, such as anencephaly, are described in the report as “obviously fatal” by the college while in general it advocates a case by case approach for judgments on foetal abnormality and the decision to terminate a pregnancy.

Doctors For Choice continues to support the view that the only person it is safe to have the final decision, on whether or not to terminate a pregnancy with an abortion, is the woman who is pregnant. A pedantic or legalistic approach to terminology in this debate is not helpful in our view, and abortion services should be properly dealt with like any other health service and follow the same ethical and legal requirements. We know of no medical requirement for special laws to regulate abortion, and we feel special, restrictive laws have only lead to the cruel and inhuman treatment of women that we have seen so far. It is time to repeal the Eighth Amendment by putting it to a referendum and then to repeal all special, restrictive laws to allow regulation of abortion be part of the regulation of all other health services and, in general, to trust women to be able to decide what is in their best interests in their particular circumstances. – Yours, etc,

PEADAR O’GRADY,
MAEVE FERRITER,
TIERNAN MURRAY,

Doctors For Choice,
Dublin.

aloyisious

Enda say's the independent's can have their free vote, he said FG did not have a majority in the Dail and couldn't dictate to others outside FG.

Funny-peculiar thing i heard on an RTE Radio 1 show earlier. David Quinn contacting people for funding for the Iona Institute. The show host was wondering if the call for funding help was a wind-up or genuine, he mentioned a photo of D Quinn casually dressed being with the request. Would anyone else have heard the remark being passed casually on the show?

PopePalpatine

Oh dear, has Legatus failed in their fund-raising efforts this year? :pac:

Loafing Oaf

Absolam wrote: »

Being seen to be supportive of a measure of abortion that has polled as being the most palatable circumstance for abortion to the electorate. And therefore supporting it is the least offensive, most vote gathering position any politician can take on the issue; you're pro choice, sympathetic to women in tough circumstances, but not a dangerous liberal intent on tearing down the very foundations of our great country. Winner winner chicken dinner.

John Halligan:

“I have met many traumatised people through my work over the years, but the people who have affected me most, sometimes moving me to tears, are women who have had to go abroad for abortions because of cases of fatal foetal abnormality or rape. Sometimes you have to do what you think is right. If you can’t follow your conscience then you’re not up to much.”

But clearly that's all hot air and he's merely engaged in a cynical vote-getting exercise...

Anyway Wallace for one openly advocates a liberal abortion law so he has no problem being perceived as a 'dangerous liberal'

The Black Oil

aloyisious wrote: »

Enda say's the independent's can have their free vote, he said FG did not have a majority in the Dail and couldn't dictate to others outside FG.

Funny-peculiar thing i heard on an RTE Radio 1 show earlier. David Quinn contacting people for funding for the Iona Institute. The show host was wondering if the call for funding help was a wind-up or genuine, he mentioned a photo of D Quinn casually dressed being with the request. Would anyone else have heard the remark being passed casually on the show?

Hi there.

From Broadsheet/Twitter

Meanwhile...

https://twitter.com/anitambyrne/status/750405923353616384

Absolam

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

John Halligan:
But clearly that's all hot air and he's merely engaged in a cynical vote-getting exercise...
Anyway Wallace for one openly advocates a liberal abortion law so he has no problem being perceived as a 'dangerous liberal'

I've no doubt there are politicians with genuine honestly held opinions on both sides of this particular debate. I've also no doubt there are politicians who will see political capital to be made in supporting this bill. If you're not cynical about Irish politics, you're not paying attention.