Abortion Discussion, Part Trois

lazygal

Shrap wrote: »

They did carefully balance the texts read out after the interviews. Equal number of fors and againsts. Would love to know the actual percentage of each sent in to the show.

Was anyone calling for the constitutional right of women to travel to kill the unborn to be repealed?

Shrap

robindch wrote: »

A guy explains that there are no such things as "fatal foetal abnormalities". The guy is a politician. From Ireland. And said it yesterday.

http://www.thejournal.ie/senator-paul-bradford-fatal-foetal-abnormality-2477902-Dec2015

Hardly worth pointing out that the first and second sentences are mutually exclusive.

Loving this quote from the same article: "However, Dr Ruth Cullen of the Pro-Life Campaign said the ruling was “deeply hurtful to families of babies diagnosed with life-shortening conditions”."

Considering that for fatal foetal abnormalities, abortion is a "life-shortening/life-limiting"* procedure carried out at an earlier and more humane stage.

*ie. FATAL.

Shrap

lazygal wrote: »

Was anyone calling for the constitutional right of women to travel to kill the unborn to be repealed?

Nope.

robindch

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Defend life - by shooting people

In all fairness, you're not dealing with the sharpest knives in the drawer in the Republican party.

Here's a story from yesterday in which a Republican says that the "real culprit" in this sad story is - wait for it - Planned Parenthood. It's their fault all along!

http://www.rawstory.com/2015/12/colorado-gop-lawmaker-planned-parenthood-is-the-real-culprit-in-the-shooting/

Some Raving, Conscienceless, Dumb Asshat wrote:

Violence is never the answer, but we must start pointing out who is the real culprit. The true instigator of this violence and all violence at any Planned Parenthood facility is Planned Parenthood themselves. Violence begets violence. So Planned Parenthood: YOU STOP THE VIOLENCE INSIDE YOUR WALLS.

robindch

And while we're on the topic of Republicans saying that Planned Parenthood are the "real culprits" of the murders at Planned Parenthood, here's televangelist and convicted fraudster, Jim Bakker, explaining that all the scandals that have affected his organization may have actually been the "work of witches" or "demons in hell" - Bakker made the claim after he spoke with a "man of god" who once sat beside a witch on a plane who explained that witches were out to get Bakker.

http://deadstate.org/jim-bakker-says-that-televangelism-scandals-are-actually-the-secret-work-of-witches/

Jim Bakker wrote:

She said, ‘Right now, all the witches … They’re all agreeing they’re going to destroy the television ministries and we’re starting with Jim Bakker. And we are all praying, praying to destroy him,’ [...you see these preachers and ministers] "going through troubles and you desert some pastor who’s been caught in something… and you don’t know that all the demons in hell brought whatever, whether it be sex, drugs, or women or whatever.”

Nodin

"......demons in hell brought whatever, whether it be sex, drugs, or women or whatever"

Can you order from them over the net, one wonders.

lazygal

Shrap wrote: »

Nope.

I thought as much-have your 'lifestyle' abortions somewhere else.

robindch

Hands up anybody who knows which religious grouping has the most abortions in the USA? Though a better question to ask might be "Does religions influence the rate of abortion"?

http://deadstate.org/christian-group-conducts-study-finds-out-that-christians-have-the-most-abortions/
http://www.lifewayresearch.com/files/2015/11/Care-Net-Final-Presentation-Report-Revised.pdf

On a brief look, it seems the stats seems to indicate that rates amongst the religious are approximately in line with their representation amongst the general population. The reactions of the religious amongst themselves seem quite unpleasant though - no doubt to be expected.

The Black Oil

robindch wrote: »

A guy explains that there are no such things as "fatal foetal abnormalities". The guy is a politician. From Ireland. And said it yesterday.

There are no such babies as babies with fatal foetal abnormalities. There are babies with serious, profound life-threatening and life-limiting conditions but they are still human beings.

http://www.thejournal.ie/senator-paul-bradford-fatal-foetal-abnormality-2477902-Dec2015

A mixture of letters today's Times. One decrying the use of the term FFA, similar to Bradford. Must. Stop. Women. Making. Decisions.

Sir, – Your report on Mr Justice Horner’s abortion ruling uses the unscientific FFA (fatal foetal abnormality) acronym. Medical scientists use the LLC (life-limiting condition) acronym. Medical science can’t forecast how long any unborn baby will survive independently after birth, be it for seconds or decades. – Yours, etc,

JOSEPH FOYLE,

Cabaal

robindch wrote: »

A guy explains that there are no such things as "fatal foetal abnormalities". The guy is a politician. From Ireland. And said it yesterday.

http://www.thejournal.ie/senator-paul-bradford-fatal-foetal-abnormality-2477902-Dec2015

Hardly worth pointing out that the first and second sentences are mutually exclusive.

The cracks starting to show in the Renua party, from the start it was clear it was the 1950s Ireland party

Hotblack Desiato

Cabaal wrote: »

The cracks starting to show in the Renua party, from the start it was clear it was the 1950s Ireland party

By 'cracks starting to show' I take it you mean the cracks are in the thin veneer of modernity attempting to conceal the very reason the party was founded in the first place.

Shrap

Cabaal wrote: »

The cracks starting to show in the Renua party, from the start it was clear it was the 1950s Ireland party

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

By 'cracks starting to show' I take it you mean the cracks are in the thin veneer of modernity attempting to conceal the very reason the party was founded in the first place.

It's another husband and wife morality trip. Like the Bopps, only more politely civilised.

The Black Oil

Cora on Pat Kenny on Newstalk.

8th has saved thousands of lives.
Newstalk/media bias is her next point.
"Horrors of abortions in other countries"

"Serious risk of trauma after abortions"

Shrap

The Black Oil wrote: »

Cora on Pat Kenny on Newstalk.

8th has saved thousands of lives.
Newstalk/media bias is her next point.
"Horrors of abortions in other countries"

"Serious risk of trauma after abortions"

Just listening to her now - having a good aul whinge about how this isn't a balanced debate because we're not hearing about people bleeding to death in taxis, and how Newstalk have approached the discussion wrongly.

PopePalpatine

There's a serious whiff of Prof. Umbridge about her.

Shrap

In terms of "balance", unfortunately this interview will give Cora and Co. a leg to stand on. Yesterday, there were no anti-choicers and it was reasoned and interesting. Today we have a pro-choice and an anti-choice having at each other with Pat waay out of his depth. Barely listenable. Might have been better policy to let Cora off on her own, as before the pro-choicer started debating with her, she was sounding alarmist and highly strung all by herself. Now she legitimately can claim not to have been able to get a word in.

The Black Oil

Colm O' Gorman said on Twitter it'd be better if Cora debated abortion, not the debate about abortion...

Cora dodging the MAP question.

A text into the show used the word fornication. :pac:

aloyisious

robindch wrote: »

A guy explains that there are no such things as "fatal foetal abnormalities". The guy is a politician. From Ireland. And said it yesterday.

http://www.thejournal.ie/senator-paul-bradford-fatal-foetal-abnormality-2477902-Dec2015

Hardly worth pointing out that the first and second sentences are mutually exclusive.

Maybe I have sight and hearing problems but I thought I saw him on an RTE discussion programme last night mentioning fatal fetal abnormality along with rape victims and the other reason why the 8th should be scrapped. Naturally he was opposed to the notion.

Daith

aloyisious wrote: »

Maybe I have sight and hearing problems but I thought I saw him on an RTE discussion programme last night mentioning fatal fetal abnormality along with rape victims and the other reason why the 8th should be scrapped. Naturally he was opposed to the notion.

Yes that was Paul Bradford. Married to Lucinda "I formed my own party because I disagreed with them on abortion" Creighton.

What I find more annoying is how it's being turned into a debate about terminology. Unfortunately we will end up with a foetus who dies in the womb regardless.

In the marriage referendum the No side kept banging on about adoption. It wasn't until the Claire Byrne show where we had the head of the Adoption Authority saying the result would have no impact on adoption in Ireland. We do really need some medical experts if non medical people are debating medical terms on shows.

Cabaal

The Game Of Womens Lives!
Ireland's favorite board game for years!

https://www.facebook.com/WhispersNews/videos/vb.247386520194/10156388010345195/?type=2&theater

aloyisious

Daith wrote: »

Yes that was Paul Bradford. Married to Lucinda "I formed my own party because I disagreed with them on abortion" Creighton.

What I find more annoying is how it's being turned into a debate about terminology. Unfortunately we will end up with a foetus who dies in the womb regardless.

In the marriage referendum the No side kept banging on about adoption. It wasn't until the Claire Byrne show where we had the head of the Adoption Authority saying the result would have no impact on adoption in Ireland. We do really need some medical experts if non medical people are debating medical terms on shows.

Oh God no.. It'd introduce the shrink from the Mater into the argument, though she'll probably appear anyway.

The Black Oil

Vox.com piece on the current situation for staff and volunteers at Planned Parenthood.

The uncertainty is often the worst part for patients and the people who volunteer to protect them. "You have no idea who this person is and what they're capable of," Patton said. Even the group of men who regularly come to quietly pray outside her Columbus clinic can freak out patients, she said. "It is still very intimidating to see a line of people standing outside of this clinic watching you walk in, especially when it's men. A lot of these women are rape victims, abuse victims, and these strange men are standing there judging them."

The threat of this uncertainty was heightened the day after Colorado Springs. Mary (not her real name) volunteers at a clinic in northern Virginia where the protest activity usually isn’t too bad. But on that Saturday, someone whom volunteers and employees had never seen before showed up. He was a younger guy with big signs and a camera bag. "And there was no need for him to have a camera bag on," Mary said. "He was taking pictures of all the escorts, but with his cellphone. … And it wouldn’t have been the same concern before this past Friday. But because of what happened in Colorado, I saw that situation totally differently."

Nodin

Be warned................
"abortionists"....."luciferian ideology"......"de baby didn't rape anybody"
http://www.broadsheet.ie/2015/12/10/luciferian/

robdonn

Nodin wrote: »

Be warned................
"abortionists"....."luciferian ideology"......"de baby didn't rape anybody"
http://www.broadsheet.ie/2015/12/10/luciferian/

Spouting off that bull**** "30,000" number again...

But really, the birthing process will kick in the woman's maternal instincts and suddenly the trauma of the rape won't be as bad any more? I'm afraid that a referendum will dig up more people like this than I would care to know existed.

Nodin

Cabaal wrote: »

The Game Of Womens Lives!
Ireland's favorite board game for years!

https://www.facebook.com/WhispersNews/videos/vb.247386520194/10156388010345195/?type=2&theater

Why did the link disappear in the post?

robdonn

Nodin wrote: »

Why did the link disappear in the post?

I just tried to re-link to the video and it was removed automatically. I tried again with a different Facebook video from the Waterford Whispers page and it worked fine.

Somebody at Boards (staff / admin / mod) has blocked that particular link.

PopePalpatine

robdonn wrote: »

Spouting off that bull**** "30,000" number again...

But really, the birthing process will kick in the woman's maternal instincts and suddenly the trauma of the rape won't be as bad any more? I'm afraid that a referendum will dig up more people like this than I would care to know existed.

I'm kind of reminded of Todd Aiken's asinine comments of "legitimate rape" right now.

seamus

Nodin wrote: »

Be warned................
"abortionists"....."luciferian ideology"......"de baby didn't rape anybody"
http://www.broadsheet.ie/2015/12/10/luciferian/

Oh look, it's a man telling us all about how women will feel.

I'm an egalitarian, but you have to logically concede that there are certain experience unique to each sex which the other has zero authority to talk about.

This moron telling us all about how women will feel after childbirth is like a woman telling a man to stop being a baby and get up after he's been kicked in the balls.

Nodin

robdonn wrote: »

I just tried to re-link to the video and it was removed automatically. I tried again with a different Facebook video from the Waterford Whispers page and it worked fine.

Somebody at Boards (staff / admin / mod) has blocked that particular link.

Or it could be blocked at the facebook end. Perhaps our local Gruppenfuhrers will enlighten us. It's unfortunately not available on youtube.

robdonn

Nodin wrote: »

Or it could be blocked at the facebook end. Perhaps our local Gruppenfuhrers will enlighten us. It's unfortunately not available on youtube.

The link seems to be back.

I didn't think that Boards would react dynamically to a dead link, but here is a test: http://nopageexists.com/

aloyisious

The Renua-party candidate for Cavan/Monaghan, Mary Smyth, has stood down following on from her comments about the Vatican on a private group F/Book page entitled The Irish Anti-abortion Crusade. Some people were upset that the Pope had allowed Climate-change activists use St Peter's basilica as a backdrop to natural world photos & videos. Mary made comments on the page calling the Vatican the Anti-Christ riddled with gay sex and adoration of wealth, that the pope couldn't be a true follower of Christ for allowing this heresy (the use of the basilica). i'd be affeared that Mary, a counselling psychotherapist, might have stronger views of other Irish women who are Pro-choice and of anyone in Ireland who is pro removing the 8th amendment. I wonder will the Irish media or politicians pursue Renua to see if their party policy follows Mary's.

Hotblack Desiato

Hardly surprising the No-Abortions-Evar-Party would attract religious loons.

Restricting Evacuation of the Nation's Uteruses Always.

Cabaal

http://www.thejournal.ie/abortions-travelled-uk-change-girls-2500294-Dec2015/

Irish women have had almost 25,000 abortions in the UK in the last five years

Meanwhile Ireland is abortion free! yipee.

It makes as much sense as deporting every person diagnosed with cancer and then claiming that Ireland is free of cancer deaths and the need for cancer treatments, its not dealing with the reality of the situation.

Its not helping women who need support in difficult situations and its a disgrace.

Cabaal

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2015/12/16/how-to-dismantle-the-eight-amendment/

Repealing the Eight Amendment is a fundamental human rights issue but people want and need clarity in relation to the legislative framework that comes after it.

Anne-Marie Mcnally writes:

I’m thinking of booking myself a little holiday. More an exploratory mission than a holiday really. I’m thinking of heading off to this revered, mystical (or mythical?!) place colloquially known as middle Ireland. No, not middle earth, just middle Ireland.

Unless your rock has remained in place above your head in recent weeks you will be aware of the re-emergence, with a vengeance, of the abortion debate in Irish public discourse. As someone who has been out canvassing I can categorically say it is the one issue that has come up for me on every single canvass. Sometimes it’s pro- sometimes it’s anti but it’s always there.

As election fever increases so too does the fervour surrounding this eternally controversial topic and its place in Irish politics. This time out it has to be different. We cannot and should not succumb to another ‘heated debate’ about the rights and wrongs of having this downright dangerous amendment in our constitution.

There is no denying just how dangerous it is, take your pick from most letters of the alphabet at this stage – they almost all represent a woman and her family who have suffered unconscionable heartache and pain under the behest of the eight amendment to our constitution.

Nobody disagrees that the constant ‘he said, she said’ tennis match style of debate is tiresome and full of rhetoric but we need to be careful that rhetoric does not creep into our proposals for legislative solutions in the event of the eight being repealed.

The familiar refrain of ‘rape, incest and fatal foetal abnormalities’ has become ubiquitous and we’re regularly told that this is likely to be as comfortable as ‘middle Ireland’ is prepared to settle for in terms of abortion legislation. But has this really been thought through?

One of the most significant of the many failings of the 2013 Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act was the complete impracticality of its proposed ‘solutions’. Aren’t we potentially running the same risk if we trot out rhetoric about rape and incest?

How exactly do we propose to deal with a situation where a sexual encounter occurs, a charge of rape is made, an arrest happens, an investigation takes place and a conviction is secured – all in the space of roughly 18-20 weeks? Is that honestly realistic? If only our justice system worked so expeditiously. Same goes for incest.

Then we’ve the situation regarding Fatal Foetal Abnormalities where medical opinion can vary widely. A few weeks back we had Renua Senator and GE16 candidate Paul Bradford telling us there’s no such thing as ‘incompatible with life’ – many of our, let’s face it, very conservative medical profession would likely subscribe to such a theory and so who gets to make the final decision?

Are we back to the scenario of a woman going through unimaginable turmoil being dragged from pillar to post to secure the abortion that is the right decision for her at the right time in her life and for her body?

We need to have the conversation but we need to have the real conversation devoid of snappy tag lines or things that are deemed potentially offensive or inoffensive to ‘middle Ireland’.

Repealing the eight has got to be a priority – it is a fundamental human rights issue – but what comes next is equally important and while I agree that people want and need clarity in relation to the legislative framework that comes after it, I want that framework to be agreed in consultation with an Irish public who are not taken for granted or presumptions put upon them about ‘where they are at’ in terms of compassion and understanding for women in vulnerable and often tragic situations.

I want a framework that is not based upon what sounds acceptable but rather on what is actually practical and will ensure that we don’t add yet another letter to our depressingly full alphabet soup of mistreated women.

Anne-Marie McNally is a political and media strategist working with Catherine Murphy TD and will be a candidate for the Social Democrats in the forthcoming General Election. Her column appears here every Wednesday morning. Follow Anne-Marie on Twitter: @amomcnally

Shrap

Hmm. Social democrats FTW then. For me, anyway - but shall have to see what rhetoric they do start pushing, if not the abortion one....

Cabaal

http://www.thejournal.ie/abortion-debate-dail-2506016-Dec2015/


“She drove from Waterford to Dublin to fly to London on her own to have an abortion”

INDEPENDENT TD JOHN Halligan made an impassioned plea to the Taoiseach to bring forward legislation that would legalise abortion in Ireland.

“She drove from Waterford to Dublin, flew to London, on her own to get an abortion.

When she landed, she was picked up on a minibus. There were eight others on the minibus, all aged between 17 and 19.

“She says that what frightened her mostly from the minibus is the silence as they drove to the clinic.

“Would you allow this happen to your own daughter? To be in the emptiness and loneliness and have to leave your own country?

Meanwhile, abortion is murder in the eyes of pro-lifers but they are happy to export the murder to other countrys. Either look for women to be banned from traveling for an abortion or repeal the 8th and setup safe, supported abortion services in Ireland,

Claiming Ireland is abortion free is a outright lie,

The Black Oil

Cora keeps complaining about/to Newstalk.

https://twitter.com/CoraSherlock/status/676387920509542400

https://twitter.com/CoraSherlock/status/676699963557093376

Is it time she and her friends released a Christmas single about balance?

PopePalpatine

I can imagine it now, four minutes of sanctimonious bleating that makes the work of Villagers seem as upbeat as Pharrell Williams's "Happy".

The Black Oil

https://twitter.com/SarahJayBee/status/677152225358163969

Wtf? Is this real?

lazygal

The Black Oil wrote: »

https://twitter.com/SarahJayBee/status/677152225358163969

Wtf? Is this real?

Its Youff Defence. It's version of "real" is questionable.

aloyisious

The Black Oil wrote: »

https://twitter.com/SarahJayBee/status/677152225358163969

Wtf? Is this real?

Never-never land

Cabaal

The Black Oil wrote: »

https://twitter.com/SarahJayBee/status/677152225358163969

Wtf? Is this real?

So now they've resorted to harassing private company's?
What a private company chooses to link itself is none of their concern,

If they don't like the Ray D'Arcy show then don't listen to it....I don't

robindch

On the grisly end of the political spectrum lies the Republican Party's response to Planned Parenthood's (alleged) policy of tossing aborted foetuses into landfill sites. In this Ohio Republicans are proposing to introduce a bill which will require women who wish for an abortion, to sign up beforehand to choose how the medical facility will dispose of the corpse of their child. As of writing, politicians had yet to decide whether there'd be separate graveyards for these aborted foetuses, or whether there'd be special areas where the cremated remains would be spread. And it seems the bill may require pregnant women to be financially responsible for the cost of burial/cremation too.

http://www.ohiohouse.gov/barbara-r-sears/press/ohio-house-republicans-respond-to-attorney-generals-planned-parenthood-findings
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2015/12/16/this-disturbing-new-ohio-abortion-bill-is-more-than-just-ridiculous-its-grisly/

Hotblack Desiato

Said it before but GOP should realise by now that women and non-whites have votes.

robindch

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Said it before but GOP should realise by now that women and non-whites have votes.

If Popette lived in the USA, she'd be out campaigning for the Republican party - it's the political edition of Stockholm Syndrome.

lazygal

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Said it before but GOP should realise by now that women and non-whites have votes.

A few parties here could wake up to these amazing facts too.

aloyisious

Does anyone know the situation on abortion in N.I. following on from the High Court in Belfast ruling in favour of the N.I.H.R.C. case? I heard Arlene Foster interviewed on RTE earlier today and (when asked about abortion in N.I.) said she would wait for the court decision before making a comment (or words to that effect). I found this on google, from a few days ago: https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjh6YyD1-XJAhXFRw8KHR6BDYwQqQIIMzAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fuk-northern-ireland-35110085&usg=AFQjCNFBCGpq5Q3U6R3Yrb95oq7MDqYI1A

130Kph

"In matters of conscience, the law of the majority has no place".
- Mahatma Gandhi

Edit: Apropos of nothing; how one can view terminations as a matter for the individual alone.

Nodin

130Kph wrote: »

"In matters of conscience, the law of the majority has no place".

- Mahatma Gandhi

And how does this relate, might I ask, to the thread?

frag420

130Kph wrote: »

"In matters of conscience, the law of the majority has no place".
- Mahatma Gandhi

Edit: Apropos of nothing; how one can view terminations as a matter for the individual alone.

This the same Ghandi who was an admirer of Mussolini and happily attended a black shirt parade? The same Ghandi that was a racist referring to black South Africans as Raw Kaffir and petitioned the government so that respected Indians did not have to use the same door to enter the post office as black people.The same Ghandi that slept naked with his grandniece?

Not the sort of person I would use to bolster my argument in matters of conscience!!