Abortion Discussion, Part Trois

recedite

aloyisious wrote: »

Does anyone know the situation on abortion in N.I. following on from the High Court in Belfast ruling in favour of the N.I.H.R.C. case? I heard Arlene Foster interviewed on RTE earlier today and (when asked about abortion in N.I.) said she would wait for the court decision before making a comment (or words to that effect). I found this on google, from a few days ago: https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjh6YyD1-XJAhXFRw8KHR6BDYwQqQIIMzAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fuk-northern-ireland-35110085&usg=AFQjCNFBCGpq5Q3U6R3Yrb95oq7MDqYI1A

Similar to the situation pertaining in ROI from 1992-2013 following the x-case, where abortion in certain circumstances is both legal and illegal. Constitutionally legal, but legislatively illegal.

I disagree with the journalist's view in that article that politicians are under no obligation to do anything to change the legislation in these circumstances. The courts do not have the power to give direct orders to legislators, but MLA's or TDs or parliamentarians in any democracy still have an obligation to "run the country" and to ensure that any legislation is fit for purpose. Keeping unconstitutional laws on the books is a neglect of duty.

130Kph

frag420 wrote: »

Not the sort of person I would use to bolster my argument in matters of conscience!!

Agreed, He isn’t . I should have read up on him more. Scratch previous post;

I think I’ll give up this quotation lark now

Shrap

130Kph wrote: »

Agreed, He isn’t . I should have read up on him more. Scratch previous post;

I think I’ll give up this quotation lark now

You're alright, don't worry! I got your meaning and it was to be non-judgmental about matters of conscience. Keep posting!

aloyisious

130Kph wrote: »

"In matters of conscience, the law of the majority has no place".
- Mahatma Gandhi

Edit: Apropos of nothing; how one can view terminations as a matter for the individual alone.

Unfortunately there's the thing known as the "Moral Majority" who get to decide what the morals of others should be. I do agree with you (if it's what you mean) that the host should be able legally to decide what to do with the guest.

Hotblack Desiato

frag420 wrote: »

This the same Ghandi who was an admirer of Mussolini and happily attended a black shirt parade? The same Ghandi that was a racist referring to black South Africans as Raw Kaffir and petitioned the government so that respected Indians did not have to use the same door to enter the post office as black people.The same Ghandi that slept naked with his grandniece?

Not the sort of person I would use to bolster my argument in matters of conscience!!

When I became an adult I recognised that there is no such thing as a hero. All humans have feet of clay. This shouldn't stop us from being able to recognise their achievements though, along with their flaws, but we all have flaws.

Hero worship is for kids.

Absolam

Though an ability to recognise and applaud admirable qualities in others, particularly those you find disagreeable, is certainly not an immature quality.

The Black Oil

The BAI upheld some complaints about the Ray DArcy show, so that'll be a talking point in future debates, methinks.

aloyisious

This article involves Justive Minister Frances Fitzgerald & Transport Minister Pascal Donohoe - apparently regardless of whether Labour sat with F/G in Govt again.. http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/fine-gael-duo-vow-to-address-abortion-in-2016-373962.html

In almost rebuttal-fashion, David Quinn has a 32-Para comment-piece on page 22 of today's Irish Indo titled "In 2015 we voted against the right of a child to a mother and a father". The piece is centred around a photo of Panti-Bliss/Rory alongside others in Dublin Castle grounds celebrating the result of the Civil Marriage referendum result. After the first two para's, in which he attacks Liberalism as "tremendously self-reinforcing" AND "giving it the appearance of being the only way to think", he moves on to what he view's as the next target of Liberalism, the 8th amendment. As I had read the comment-piece in print, I'm unable to provide a link myself. The piece is too long to type in here anyway.

aloyisious

I'd like this to mean the Pro-Life campaigners won't attend at the Citizens Convention but won't hold my breath.... http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/citizens-convention-only-for-show-says-pro-life-campaigners-713814.html

Hotblack Desiato

aloyisious wrote: »

I'd like this to mean the Pro-Life campaigners won't attend at the Citizens Convention but won't hold my breath.... http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/citizens-convention-only-for-show-says-pro-life-campaigners-713814.html

They will be infiltrating as many 'experts' as possible, Dublin Declaration style.

aloyisious

Hmmm, look's like "liberalism" is the new buzzword of choice by the "Pro-life" campaign. It got a mention by the Archbishop yesterday to describe people who are pro-choice, asking "pro-lifers" to ask politicians about their position on abortion-right of choice for women in view of the upcoming election.

Just seen this link on F/Book from the Rabble-page... http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/04/ireland-first-legal-abortion?CMP=share_btn_tw

edit... Seem's that Rabble may have picked up on an erroneous re-post on The Guardian.com webpage and I reposted that error here. Apologies and thank's to those who spotted the error. I think I copied the original as a Rabble item and it then converted into a The Guardian item when I posted it here.

Hotblack Desiato

Quoth the server, 404.

robdonn

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Quoth the server, 404.

http://www.theguardian.com/news/2016/jan/04/corrections-and-clarifications

Technical problems during the deletion of an incorrect 2013 article about abortion in Ireland led to it being relaunched on our website and automatically tweeted as though it was a new story. The article has now been removed from our databases and the tweets deleted.

MrPudding

I think this one is correct:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/05/northern-ireland-medics-fear-prison-abortion-advice

Hopefully the recent case in the high court will sort this out.

MrP

Nodin

"A process to deal with examining the Eighth Amendment should be completed in the next government, Tánaiste Joan Burton has said.
Ms Burton and Taoiseach Enda Kenny were speaking at the annual review of the Programme for Government.
The Tánaiste also said the process to deal with the issue should be completed in a year to a year-and-a-half in the next government, before a referendum would take place on repealing the amendment.
Mr Kenny has said he was loath to put a date on it, and did not want to be presumptuous, but said a referendum would take place during the course of the next government on the issue.
He said he believed that the referendum would take place within a few years."
http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0111/759251-next-govt-eighth-amendment/

You can almost hear the creaks as its dragged out of him.

robdonn

What a shower of...

Hotblack Desiato

It's finally happened.


http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/irish-woman-accused-of-using-poison-to-procure-abortion-1.2492666

A Co Down woman has appeared in court accused of using a poison to procure her own abortion.

The 21-year-old, who cannot be named for legal reasons, faces two charges over allegedly supplying and administering harmful substances. She was returned for trial after a judge confirmed she has a case to answer.

The accused entered the dock at Belfast Magistrates’ Court on Monday for a preliminary enquiry into alleged offences committed during June and July 2014.

One charge involves unlawfully administering to herself noxious substances, namely the drugs Mifepristone and Misoprostol, with intent to procure a miscarriage for herself. She is further accused of supplying or procuring a poison, knowing that it was to be used for the intentions of a miscarriage.

Both charges are contrary to the Offences Against the Person Act 1861.

She's out on bail.

Isn't the penalty life in prison? It's 14 years here under PLDP Act.

eviltwin

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

It's finally happened.


http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/irish-woman-accused-of-using-poison-to-procure-abortion-1.2492666



She's out on bail.

Isn't the penalty life in prison? It's 14 years here under PLDP Act.

A complete and utter waste of the courts time and taxpayers money but I'm sure Bernadette Smyth is doing novenas that she's convicted.

Nodin

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

It's finally happened.


http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/irish-woman-accused-of-using-poison-to-procure-abortion-1.2492666



She's out on bail.

Isn't the penalty life in prison? It's 14 years here under PLDP Act.

Life
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/02/northern-ireland-draconian-abortion-laws/

MrPudding

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

It's finally happened.


http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/irish-woman-accused-of-using-poison-to-procure-abortion-1.2492666



She's out on bail.

Isn't the penalty life in prison? It's 14 years here under PLDP Act.

Nodin wrote: »

Life
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/02/northern-ireland-draconian-abortion-laws/

I might be wrong, but I don't believe it is a mandatory life sentence. This is under the 1861 legislation, yes, that's right, 1861. There was no mandatory sentencing at that time.

MrP

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

The Black Oil

Seemed to be some sort of pro-life placards, etc, as I was on the bus going past the Dail this morning.

Dave was apparently complaining via Twitter about the new master of the Rotunda getting a relatively easy time on last week's Late Late Show.

Also, craic below.

https://twitter.com/FintanOToolbox/status/687054048789426176

lazygal

The Black Oil wrote: »

Seemed to be some sort of pro-life placards, etc, as I was on the bus going past the Dail this morning.

The big huge yokes? They're a regular feature outside the Dáil.

Curious to see what a Gay Man, a man who adopted two children and another man I can't be bothered looking up have to say about compulsory gestation.

Canadel

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

When I became an adult I recognised that there is no such thing as a hero. All humans have feet of clay. This shouldn't stop us from being able to recognise their achievements though, along with their flaws, but we all have flaws.

There are heroes, just all too often we incorrectly identify them. True heroism is minutes, hours, weeks, year upon year of the quiet, precise, judicious exercise of probity and care—with no one there to see or cheer. This is the world.

Hero worship is for kids.

Second Toughest in_the Freshers

A Co Down woman has appeared in court accused of using a poison to procure her own abortion.

0.o

Cabaal

The Independent (UK) reports:

An anti-abortion campaign group in Ireland have been derided online for holding an event on women’s healthcare – with only male speakers.

Family and Life, a Dublin-based organisation, is holding an event tomorrow evening in the capital city. Titled ‘How to Protect the 8th amendment’ in reference to the constitutional clause which bans abortion, the event is described as “pro-life”.

The discussion will feature three men; David Quinn, Patrick Carr and Paddy Manning.

…One of the speakers, David Quinn, has defended the event, telling The Independent: “I don’t regard abortion as a woman’s healthcare issue only but as a right-to-life issue as well.

“The right to life of the unborn is obviously at stake in this debate and that is a human rights issue, not a woman’s issue or a man’s issue per se.”

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/irish-pro-life-group-criticised-for-all-male-panel-on-abortion-a6809631.html

Oh look they are on friendface - https://www.facebook.com/FamilyVitae

Cabaal

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jan/13/pro-choice-activists-plan-belfast-protest-abortion-trial-northern-ireland

Pro-choice campaigners in Northern Ireland will stage demonstrations this weekend to protest against the first prosecution of a woman in 40 years for procuring an abortion for herself.

The 21-year-old from County Down appeared in a Belfast court this week charged under a 19th-century law for taking abortion pills to induce a termination. Under the 1861 Offences Against the Person Act the woman could face a sentence of up to life imprisonment.

Northern Ireland is the only region in the UK where the 1967 Abortion Act does not apply.

recedite

Odd that its the first case of its kind in 40 years.
I can think of two possible explanations for this, but there are probably more.

1. The "poisons" have become available over the internet, by mail order, and the authorities want to be seen to clamp down before self-medication becomes more widespread.
2. The authorities prosecuting the case are hoping to provoke a change in the legislation.

MrPudding

recedite wrote: »

Odd that its the first case of its kind in 40 years.
I can think of two possible explanations for this, but there are probably more.

1. The "poisons" have become available over the internet, by mail order, and the authorities want to be seen to clamp down before self-medication becomes more widespread.
2. The authorities prosecuting the case are hoping to provoke a change in the legislation.

I believe some women are actually rocking up to police stations and "confessing"... Not sure what the background if here though.

[EDIT] According to the Guardian article she is not one of the women that confesses.

MrP

Nodin

lazygal wrote: »

The big huge yokes? They're a regular feature outside the Dáil.

Curious to see what a Gay Man, a man who adopted two children and another man I can't be bothered looking up have to say about compulsory gestation.

That they, without a thought for themselves or a moment of selfishness, will generously campaign to have women do it.

aloyisious

The Pro-choice protests around the country, not just at the GPO, at 6 PM this Friday may tell how lively the campaign is going to be. https://www.facebook.com/events/1699638853616224/

The Black Oil

Check out the #3wisemen

https://twitter.com/AshlingOBrien2/status/687729828385144833

https://twitter.com/AshlingOBrien2/status/687727859369152512

https://twitter.com/AshlingOBrien2/status/687727358825099265

The Randy Riverbeast

Why would screening matter? Nobody in Ireland gets abortions ( ), making a parent aware of changes in preparation that would need to be made is hardly a bad thing.

lazygal

If I have another pregnancy I'll get screened for everything possible. I want information to make decisions. Even if that means seeking medical treatment abroad.

aloyisious

The troika of David Quinn, Margaret Hickey (speakers) and Paddy Manning (chair) are in The Silver Springs Hotel at 7.30 PM Tuesday 19th, Regency Suite 2 on how to protect the 8th amendment.

PopePalpatine

I wondered who Margaret Hickey is, so here's Twitter to the rescue! She seems like a typical Legatus Lackey with a bit of neo-conservatism (particularly man-made climate change denial) thrown in.

lazygal

aloyisious wrote: »

The troika of David Quinn, Margaret Hickey (speakers) and Paddy Manning (chair) are in The Silver Springs Hotel at 7.30 PM Tuesday 19th, Regency Suite 2 on how to protect the 8th amendment.

Managed to find a woman this time.

Delirium

aloyisious wrote: »

The troika of David Quinn, Margaret Hickey (speakers) and Paddy Manning (chair) are in The Silver Springs Hotel at 7.30 PM Tuesday 19th, Regency Suite 2 on how to protect the 8th amendment.

clearly saw some of the tweeting from the previous event seeing as they now have a woman on the team :pac:

The Randy Riverbeast

First they got a token gay person, now they are getting a token women. At this rate they'll have collected the entire token avengers.

MrPudding

This could be useful, though the downside is it might give NI's politicians and excuse not to act, if a change were to be made.

MRP

Delirium

Some tweets of results of a poll carried out by Red C regarding 8th amendment.
https://twitter.com/NewstalkFM/status/690112135381262338
https://twitter.com/ElectionNT/status/690119206994468864
https://twitter.com/ElectionNT/status/690136301585207296

Cabaal

One of the responses to one of the tweets

Need proper abortion debate describing how baby is killed, the baby's reaction throughout, disposal&selling of body parts

So do need to have a discussion on exactly whats involved in a scoliosis treatment when we discuss other medial issues like availability of treatment of scoliosis? http://www.thejournal.ie/scoliosis-waiting-lists-joan-burton-2560119-Jan2016/

Cabaal

One of the responses to one of the tweets

Need proper abortion debate describing how baby is killed, the baby's reaction throughout, disposal&selling of body parts

So do need to have a discussion on exactly whats involved in a scoliosis treatment when we discuss other medial issues like availability of treatment of scoliosis? http://www.thejournal.ie/scoliosis-waiting-lists-joan-burton-2560119-Jan2016/

seamus

Only 60% in favour of it for non-fatal abnormalities and suicide, the latter being a very disappointing stat.

It's not good enough, it won't win a referendum. Fatal abnormalities and rape are the most important reasons to allow abortion, but the anti-choice crowd will frame the debate to focus on other scenarios and pretend that they're the bigger issue.

Unless very comprehensive legislation is presented with the proposed referendum, or they propose to replace the 8th with something slightly more permissive (which would be a terrible, terrible, idea), a straightforward repeal referendum will fail. Irish people are still easily swayed by the "abortion on demand" bogeyman and would rather vote to keep the status quo if the choice is presented as a binary one.

And that's how the anti-choice crowd will frame the debate - as a binary choice between "abortions where necessary" -v- "abortions on demand", even though the former doesn't even exist at present.

recedite

seamus wrote: »

Only 60% in favour of it for non-fatal abnormalities and suicide, the latter being a very disappointing stat..

Well, to be fair, "non-fatal abnormalities" is a bit vague. It could mean anything from having ginger hair to Down's syndrome. I'm not surprised people are less enthusiastic about it.
As for "feelings of suicide," is suicidal ideation not already considered to be grounds for a legal abortion? Maybe people have forgotten, or maybe the other 40% polled oppose the existing law (as having gone too far already)?

Hotblack Desiato

seamus wrote: »

Fatal abnormalities and rape are the most important reasons to allow abortion

The thinking that forced pregnancy is OK in some situations is what needs to stop.
There is no hierarchy of 'good abortions' or 'bad abortions'. In each case there is a woman in crisis who is pregnant when she doesn't want to be, we don't have the right to judge her or her reasons. The fact that 41% of those surveyed recognise this is actually massive progress.

We shouldn't accept any stop-gap that will continue to judge women and take control away from them, and subject them to yet more lawyers and judges making decisions about what should be between a woman and her doctor and nobody else.

A straight repeal will pass if argued well. The anti-SSM nonsense did religious conservatives a huge amount of damage in the public eye, between that and their hysteria over PLDP (Lucinda "floodgates" Creighton, et al) can anyone who isn't already a religious conservative take them remotely seriously?

robdonn

Cabaal wrote: »

One of the responses to one of the tweets

https://twitter.com/DR_EIMEAR/status/690139658852921344

I had a (short) chat with that girl, it didn't go well...

https://twitter.com/rwjd/status/690176709409251329

https://twitter.com/DR_EIMEAR/status/690216858021163012

https://twitter.com/rwjd/status/690219877001465856

https://twitter.com/DR_EIMEAR/status/690221664173424640

https://twitter.com/rwjd/status/690224149638287361

She stopped responding after that... :P

Absolam

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

The thinking that forced pregnancy is OK in some situations is what needs to stop.

Or the thinking that not intervening to terminate a pregnancy constitutes 'forced pregnancy' needs to stop?

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

There is no hierarchy of 'good abortions' or 'bad abortions'. In each case there is a woman in crisis who is pregnant when she doesn't want to be, we don't have the right to judge her or her reasons. The fact that 41% of those surveyed recognise this is actually massive progress.

Why exactly don't we have the right? In every other circumstance where someone endangers (never mind ends!) someone else's life we're very inclined to judge them and their reasons. Even when they do things that don't directly impact others (like public nudity, or not having a tv licence) we judge them, and in the interests of justice, we consider their reasons too. I don't see why society should exclude itself from asserting authority over an act so much more significant than not cleaning up after your dog. If something so insignificant is subject to the rule of law, how much more so this?

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

We shouldn't accept any stop-gap that will continue to judge women and take control away from them, and subject them to yet more lawyers and judges making decisions about what should be between a woman and her doctor and nobody else.

We shouldn't accept arguments that attempt to remove society from a discussion that affects all of society; whether or not people should be allowed to take the lives of others.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

A straight repeal will pass if argued well. The anti-SSM nonsense did religious conservatives a huge amount of damage in the public eye, between that and their hysteria over PLDP (Lucinda "floodgates" Creighton, et al) can anyone who isn't already a religious conservative take them remotely seriously?

I very much doubt it. You don't have to be a religious conservative to not favour abortion on demand. And a straight repeal would be pilloried as abortion on demand.

robdonn

Absolam wrote: »

Or the thinking that not intervening to terminate a pregnancy constitutes 'forced pregnancy' needs to stop?

A forced pregnancy is a pregnancy that is not allowed to be terminated if the mother wishes to do so. What else should we call it? A temporary absence of one's bodily integrity? Reduced quality of life in favour of quantity of life?

PopePalpatine

robdonn wrote: »

A forced pregnancy is a pregnancy that is not allowed to be terminated if the mother wishes to do so. What else should we call it? A temporary absence of one's bodily integrity? Reduced quality of life in favour of quantity of life?

Nah, not Jesuitical enough.