Abortion Discussion, Part Trois

ProfessorPlum

infogiver wrote: »

9 of the 21 were sanctioned.

You might have to give us a bit more detail there. It was reported that 'up to nine' staff 'involved in her care' were subject to mild sanction by the hospital. None by the nursing board as far as I am aware and certainly none by the medical council. Surely that would be highly unusual if the nursing and medical staff had failed in 'even the basics of best practice'. I wonder which staff were sanctioned?

Absolam

recedite wrote: »

All very well in theory. And then we remember what happened to Savita Halappanavar.

Indeed; had she been in a hospital like the one they're about to built with the commitment to clinical excellence that Master Mahony has described, she might well have survived.

aloyisious

Umm, I see from the Boards. separate thread on the plan for the move of the National Maternity Hospital to St Vincents might be in doubt due to the public and media interest, Mention was made on the thread about St Vincents Hospital Board considering a change of mind about the plan.....

https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjqs_Ds2rbTAhUoCcAKHXhbD8UQFgg1MAM&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thesun.ie%2Fnews%2F896108%2Ffuture-of-national-maternity-hospital-plans-in-question-after-st-vincents-group-announce-review%2F&usg=AFQjCNECAZY30-G-iTU2WfoMPHOcMlViig.

Absolam

And apparently Labour are saying the Govt should hand the Sisters a pile of cash for the land if the Board of SVHG decides to pull out of the deal... even bring forward legislation to ensure they can!

“If the Group does intend to pull out of the project, the Minister for Health needs to step up to the plate and consider bringing in legislation, if necessary, to initiate a compulsory purchase order for the site, to ensure this vital hospital is built- and remains in state ownership.”


Only in Ireland....

volchitsa

Now there's a constitutional amendment that we really need to see through, instead of the Seanad and whatnot. The government needs to be able to confiscate land from any religious orders with outstanding debts for previous misconduct. At the very least.

In fact. They probably need to be able to confiscate from all institutions not actually based in Ireland - the Sisters of Charity are a multinational conglomerate with many hospitals in America and probably elsewhere - so why are people being taken in by the notion that they're half a dozen aged Catholic Florence Nightingales?

Pherekydes

Citizens' assembly votes against keeping the 8th (87%):

http://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0422/869450-citizens-assembly/

Absolam

Mmmm... to be more accurate, the 2nd ballot indicates not that they voted for repeal, but that they voted for replacing or amending.

I think it was always a foregone conclusion that public opinion would be heavily in favour of making room for circumstances like FFA, though there are yet more votes to come which will clarify just what way the Assembly are leaning.

aloyisious

https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj_k7z10rjTAhWnKMAKHad8AVwQFggqMAI&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fsocial-affairs%2Fthe-eighth-amendment-repeal-it-retain-it-replace-it-1.3055314&usg=AFQjCNEwGvGXsCZGt5nymzhRX_xskI-GnA

Para 3.... This will be the citizens’ fifth and last weekend debating article 40.3.3, the Eighth Amendment to the Irish Constitution, which is a de-facto prohibition on abortion in the country.

Reading after the words: 'utmost importance' from the judge, it seems her words of advice were spoken some time before today (Saturday) as the advice is to consult Brian Murray SC's paper night, noon and morn. Today was their vote on the options of repeal or reform.

'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

There is mention, presumably an error, of 14 hours ago in the online I/Times entry with the link above. It can't have been that time since the entry of the assembly vote was made..... OK, just seen the update was made 2 hours ago.

MrPudding

aloyisious wrote: »

https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj_k7z10rjTAhWnKMAKHad8AVwQFggqMAI&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fsocial-affairs%2Fthe-eighth-amendment-repeal-it-retain-it-replace-it-1.3055314&usg=AFQjCNEwGvGXsCZGt5nymzhRX_xskI-GnA

Para 3.... This will be the citizens’ fifth and last weekend debating article 40.3.3, the Eighth Amendment to the Irish Constitution, which is a de-facto prohibition on abortion in the country.

Reading after the words: 'utmost importance' from the judge, it seems her words of advice were spoken some time before today (Saturday) as the advice is to consult Brian Murray SC's paper night, noon and morn. Today was their vote on the options of repeal or reform.

'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

There is mention, presumably an error, of 14 hours ago in the online I/Times entry with the link above. It can't have been that time since the entry of the assembly vote was made..... OK, just seen the update was made 2 hours ago.

And the results are in...

MrP

PopePalpatine

I wonder how the Legatus Lackeys will present this. :rolleyes:

aloyisious

According to RTE radio news just now, the assembly voted for general liberalisation of abortion, differing on the point beyond it should NOT be allowed (the age of the feotus) differing between 12 weeks and 22 weeks. I suppose (safely) that more info will be available later.

The high horse brigade

This is a move in the right direction, pretty much forces the government to have to deal with this and hold a referendum

Here is a brief summary of what the Citizens’ Assembly recommended this weekend:

An overwhelming 87% voted to recommend against retaining the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution, as it currently exists.
It recommended to replace or amend the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution – and not to repeal it.
It recommended to provide a provision in the Constitution for the Oireachtas to legislate on abortion, the rights of the unborn and any rights of pregnant women.
It recommended that terminations should be allowed without restriction up to the 12th week of pregnancy.
It recommended that terminations should be allowed due to “socio-economic reasons” up to the 22nd week of pregnancy.
In cases of fatal foetal abnormality where the child is likely to die shortly before, or after, birth it recommended abortion be permitted during any period of the pregnancy.

http://www.thejournal.ie/citizens-assembly-vote-3354416-Apr2017/?utm_source=shortlink

Absolam

This is probably the most comprehensive detailing of the result I've seen so far;

64pc of the Members have recommended that the termination of pregnancy without restriction should be lawful. Of that group of Members:
48pc have recommended that the termination of pregnancy without restriction should be lawful up to 12 weeks gestation age only.
44pc have recommended that the termination of pregnancy without restriction should be lawful up to 22 weeks’ gestation age only.
8pc have recommended that the termination of pregnancy with no restriction to gestational age.


A majority of Assembly Members recommended by ballot the following reasons, for which termination of pregnancy should be lawful in Ireland:

Real and substantial physical risk to the life of the woman (99pc)
Real and substantial risk to the life of the woman by suicide (95pc)
Serious risk to the physical health of the woman (93pc)
Serious risk to the mental health of the woman (90pc)
Serious risk to the health of the woman (91pc)
Risk to the physical health of the woman (79pc)
Risk to the mental health of the woman (78pc)
Risk to the health of the woman (78pc)
Pregnancy as result of rape (89pc)
The unborn child has a foetal abnormality that is likely to result in death before or shortly after birth (89pc)
The unborn child has a significant foetal abnormality that is not likely to result in death before or shortly after birth (80pc)
Socio-economic reasons (72pc)

recedite

Difficult to see how the politicians could give effect to the above variable results.
They could call a multi-question referendum now, with only those "possible reasons for abortion" which get above 50% making it into the final legislation. That would be the smarter move.

The more likely moves are either;
1. Lie low and keep their heads below the parapet until everyone forgets the Constitutional Assembly ever existed.

2. Organise a single question referendum, containing some of the possible reasons, but not others.
A simple question for the public; and the answer would be Yes or No. In that scenario, some would say No because it goes too far, and some would say No because it doesn't go far enough. And if the referendum failed, we would never know who exactly voted it down.

I realise they are all shown above 50% at the assembly, but I'm not sure the figures would be so high among the general public.

looksee

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2017/04/24/the-task-of-the-committee-will-be-to-water-down-these-proposals/

Its not true, it can't be right, that isn't really what people want...

recedite

looksee wrote: »

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2017/04/24/the-task-of-the-committee-will-be-to-water-down-these-proposals/

Its not true, it can't be right, that isn't really what people want...

Because if these, if this package was put to the people, the view in Leinster House, certainly is, that it would surely fail.

That's not an unreasonable view. But it seems to be based on putting the simple Yes/No question to the people, as I described in Likely Option 2. above (proposing all the reasons together)

But, of course, the timing and the timescale is a problem because, with the best will in the world, this committee, if it sits in June and reports in September, if it works through the summer, there?ll be very limited legislative time. And the D?il returns in October, we have the budget, we have the social welfare bill, so, effectively, the first time we could contemplate having any referendum on this is next year, maybe around April next year.? ?And, of course, that?s the time when you could be facing a general election
..... blah blah blah....

And that's the Likely Option 1 as mentioned :pac:

smacl

recedite wrote: »

Difficult to see how the politicians could give effect to the above variable results.

Maybe they could ask the nuns for some advice in return for chucking them 300 million of our tax euros :pac:

Pherekydes

More likely is that the current govt will plead inability to hold a referendum with Brexit, the Papal visit and the Trump visit going on and will wriggle and worm their way to the next election without having it. Kick the can down the road...

infogiver

Pherekydes wrote: »

More likely is that the current govt will plead inability to hold a referendum with Brexit, the Papal visit and the Trump visit going on and will wriggle and worm their way to the next election without having it. Kick the can down the road...

I sincerely hope that they do hold a referendum and soon, and that everyone accepts the result whichever way it goes.
Ive found it very disturbing how the Left in the US have reacted to the election of Trump.
Yes he's a grotesque caricature of a President but the people could only pick between the candidates placed in front of them.

Absolam

Most likely each party will make a referendum a plank of their platform for the next general election... with plenty of wriggle room on just what the referendum will be. In the meantime Enda will remind just what a perspicacious leader he is convening this excellent Assembly to tell us what people want and how he can continue his remarkable governance well into the future if we let him.

aloyisious

looksee wrote: »

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2017/04/24/the-task-of-the-committee-will-be-to-water-down-these-proposals/

Its not true, it can't be right, that isn't really what people want...

It's kind'a peculiar, almost like RTE is reporting on the Pro-Life side's fallback wish list after the citizens vote result is made public. I never thought that RTE would say something that the Institute would consider unbiased.

Edit.... I hope I'm getting this "quote" correctly connected to Ruth Coppinger TD I saw on a F/B page. Her name and title is above it... Outrageously biased coverage by RTE. 'The task of the Committee will be to water down the Citizens Assembly proposals !' For over a year now, the so called liberal media has been doing its tone policing. Now a committee of members of the public has shown them public opinion is actually quite advanced and we TDs are told to completely ignore it! Well done to our public service broadcaster.

A Warning about said link to Ruth Coppinger. When I put my cursor over Ruth Coppinger TD above the "quote". I got a security alert about ATTACKERS CURRENTLY ON RUTHCOPPINGER.IE AND MALWARE likely to steal etc items on one's computer.

eviltwin

infogiver wrote: »

I sincerely hope that they do hold a referendum and soon, and that everyone accepts the result whichever way it goes.
Ive found it very disturbing how the Left in the US have reacted to the election of Trump.
Yes he's a grotesque caricature of a President but the people could only pick between the candidates placed in front of them.

Agree. I think whatever side of the argument you lie on the very least this generation needs is a chance to have a say.

The people most affected by this have never had a vote on it.

aloyisious

Tune into Joe now as he's interviewing an Assembly member now, or tune into a podcast later

recedite

Absolam wrote: »

perspicacious

Kudos, and triple bonus points just for making use of this excellent word.

frag420

recedite wrote: »

Kudos, and triple bonus points just for making use of this excellent word.

Was very sagacious of him eh...

aloyisious

Tune into the last segment (podcast or other) of the Sean O'Rourke Show and listen to the issue, along with the new NMH issue, being discussed between Dr Pat Casey Mater Hosp consultant & Iona fiend, some politicians (incl one who has a different opinion to that of his party on the issue). The thoughts and votes of the Citizens Assembly are included.

robindch

aloyisious wrote: »

The thoughts and votes of the Citizens Assembly are included.

Ah, that's nice.

aloyisious

Sat down yesterday, glanced through the papers, missed this doozy by Breda O'Brien.... http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/citizens-assembly-shows-its-callousness-in-abortion-vote-1.3065123

The fight back against the move against the 8th amendment is well and truly on. Over the past few days the Pro-life side said there was not equality of representation for it at the Assembly when it came to giving advice and answering questions from assembly members on the issue of abortion. It might, IMO, be a telling statement on how the assembly members viewed the input and worth of the Pro-Life side to the debate.

I listened to callers to RTE damning the assembly as being unrepresentative of the country as a whole (no reps from Cavan etc) and can't help feeling it was the topic (and the vote result) under assembly debate, and not the assembly constituency, that caused the callers ire.

Senator Mullen was one of the guests on RTE radio yesterday debating the issue. He tried unsuccessfully to divert the debate into "what-ifery land" likening the debate on abortion and the 8th to killing, and asked if there should be a referendum to bring back the death penalty. He referred to a referendum of two years ago into the bargain, without naming the particular item put to the people to decide on. He plainly hasn't got past, or forgiven, the nation for its decision then and fears the likely outcome of one on the 8th and abortion generally.

robindch

Dr Ciara Kelly, a medical doctor, replies to Breda O'Brien, a religious teacher:

http://www.independent.ie/life/health-wellbeing/mental-health/doctors-orders-we-need-to-talk-about-breda-and-abortion-31558739.html

lazygal

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2013/04/21/dr-peter-boylan-and-breda-obrien-the-transcript/
Throwback to when Peter Boylan did the same.