Abortion Discussion, Part Trois

Loafing Oaf

Odhinn wrote: »

It's more reflective of changing attitudes in the party membership. Motions calling for "on demand" have previously been voted down at ardfheiseanna over the years.

But does the imprimatur of the Ard Comhairle not mean this motion is virtually guaranteed to pass? Genuinely asking, not that familiar with SF's internal workings...

aloyisious

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

But does the imprimatur of the Ard Comhairle not mean this motion is virtually guaranteed to pass? Genuinely asking, not that familiar with SF's internal workings...

I am not familiar with the party practice either. If those on the floor follow the accepted practice of following the party whip, regardless of those in minority positions, any motion meeting the existing or apparent party line should pass. R$e the below, Peadar's position will either be set in stone or maybe altered by then

I got this from the Houses of the Oireachras schedule for this week:

What's on this week
Week Commencing Monday 13th of November

The Joint Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution will meet in public session on Wednesday 15th November at 1.30 p.m. in Committee Room 3, LH2000.
Session A will consider Socioeconomic Reasons with Dr. Caitriona Henchion, Medical Director of the Irish Family Planning Association.
Session B will consider Health Issues in relation to Crisis Pregnancy Management with Ms. Janice Donlon, HSE, Sexual Health and Crisis Pregnancy Programme.
The transcripts for Meetings already held by the Committee are available here and the Opening Statements made by the witnesses appearing before the Committee are available here.
Note Committee meetings held in Public Session can be watched live online and are often televised live on the Oireachtas TV channel, which is available on Virgin Media 207 and Sky 574. Meetings can also be viewed on the Houses of the Oireachtas Smartphone App which is available to download free of charge in iTunes and Google Play.

..........................................................................

Link: http://www.oireachtas.ie/

After opening the link, go to Parliamentary Committees: then This Weeks Committee Schedule, then Wednesdays meeting list, the 8th amendment committee is No 9 on it..

Odhinn

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

But does the imprimatur of the Ard Comhairle not mean this motion is virtually guaranteed to pass? Genuinely asking, not that familiar with SF's internal workings...

It gives it a certain weight to pass but it's not guaranteed, no, afaik. It should though, as theres been regular moves to adopt a more liberal position over the last decade.

Odhinn

aloyisious wrote: »

I am not familiar with the party practice either. If those on the floor follow the accepted practice of following the party whip, regardless of those in minority positions, any motion meeting the existing or apparent party line should pass. R$e the below, Peadar's position will either be set in stone or maybe altered by then

..

He seems to have been unaware of the party position on the issue, for some reason, when he threw the head a while back.

Loafing Oaf

Odhinn wrote: »

He seems to have been unaware of the party position on the issue, for some reason, when he threw the head a while back.

Growing speculation that the bould Peadar will be jumping ship to FF:

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/three-exsf-councillors-to-target-seat-of-local-party-td-36317708.html

I suspect he may be aware his bid to secure a free vote on abortion is unlikely to succeed is using it to position himself for the mooted jump...

Tbh, if he is going to quit, he'd probably be better to do it after the Ard Fheis rather than spend months ruling it out and then doing it a la Stephen Donnelly

Odhinn

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Growing speculation that the bould Peadar will be jumping ship to FF:

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/three-exsf-councillors-to-target-seat-of-local-party-td-36317708.html

I suspect he may be aware his bid to secure a free vote on abortion is unlikely to succeed is using it to position himself for the mooted jump...

Tbh, if he is going to quit, he'd probably be better to do it after the Ard Fheis rather than spend months ruling it out and then doing it a la Stephen Donnelly

His position was never in alignment with the party afaik. Not saying that he isn't entitled to hold his principles, but if it was that important to him he really should have read up on it when he joined.

The comedy was good after yer man stephen donnelly went, it has to be said.

Loafing Oaf

Odhinn wrote: »

His position was never in alignment with the party afaik. Not saying that he isn't entitled to hold his principles, but if it was that important to him he really should have read up on it when he joined.

The comedy was good after yer man stephen donnelly went, it has to be said.

The two of them were on TWIP at the weekend; an interviewer with a bit of divilment like Sean O'Rourke would've asked Peadar if he would be following in Stephen's footsteps anytime soon.:P Yeah they dug up some choice barbs Donnelly had aimed at FF in his Sindo column when he joined up but he brazened it out.

aloyisious

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Growing speculation that the bould Peadar will be jumping ship to FF:

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/three-exsf-councillors-to-target-seat-of-local-party-td-36317708.html

I suspect he may be aware his bid to secure a free vote on abortion is unlikely to succeed is using it to position himself for the mooted jump...

Tbh, if he is going to quit, he'd probably be better to do it after the Ard Fheis rather than spend months ruling it out and then doing it a la Stephen Donnelly

So if he's ex-Sinn Fein it's OK for the FF party to align itself with him, but not if he's a serving member of SF. Giving that Dev was in Sinn Fein til 1926 before he started FF as a party, he's following in great footsteps.

Edit: today's Indo reported that several SF Cumann in Meath West are supporting Peadar's position on the 8th.

Odhinn

aloyisious wrote: »

.............
Edit: today's Indo reported that several SF Cumann in Meath West are supporting Peadar's position on the 8th.

Possible, but the Indo is the paper that stated Gerry would come in fourth in Louth so I'd take it with some salt.

aloyisious

Today's committee hearing seemed to run as in the recent days, adversarial comments between both committee members and witnesses and comment-responses between committee members with one giving her own personal experiences in the matter to Ronan.

Comment was also made by committee members about the absence of Pro-choice witnesses. The footage did not show any Pro-choice members of the committee to be present at that time in the hearing room.

I saw the footage on RTE 1 TV news so it was probably shortened to fit into the programme time limits on news items.

Loafing Oaf

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Further to this:
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/sinn-f%C3%A9in-to-amend-its-stance-on-abortion-1.3287524

Is this de facto 'abortion on demand'?

Re GA's declaration of his 'pro-choice' hand, I'm wondering is he doing this at the behest of the emerging Dublin leadership. Might be an easier sell to 'traditional republicans' if it was perceived to be coming from the boss man himself rather than Mary Lou et al...

According to this, the motion advocates abortion where a woman’s health is ‘at serious risk’, so perhaps not as sweeping in practice as I thought. Room for interpretation there...
https://sluggerotoole.com/2017/11/15/sinn-fein-policy-decision-has-implications-for-abortion-referendum-process/

aloyisious

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

According to this, the motion advocates abortion where a woman’s health is ‘at serious risk’, so perhaps not as sweeping in practice as I thought. Room for interpretation there...
https://sluggerotoole.com/2017/11/15/sinn-fein-policy-decision-has-implications-for-abortion-referendum-process/

Ditto on interpretation of these two parts as well: However a number of delegates wish to see the party go further. Other motions up for debate propose basing party policy on the recommendations of the Citizens Assembly which advocated allowing abortions for the first 12 weeks of a pregnancy....... The Ard Fheis motions and the party’s position on abortion takes on a fresh importance as the Eighth Amendment Committee are due to conclude their work within the next few weeks.

I'm assuming the final recommendations for both houses will only be set in print-stone and come near the end of the committee's work.

F/G, it seem's from early-today RTE, has at least one young member of fixed opinions, being quite willing to express them openly. It was mentioned as well that he is of Pro-life opinion, though it wasn't said that that swayed his stated opinions on other [female] F/G members.

Frank Bullitt

aloyisious wrote: »

MSN news online.....

Part of Katie Ascough's replies to interview by Marian Finucane earlier today..... When asked for her thoughts on abortion in cases of rape, she told RTE Radio 1: “(Rape) is one of the most abhorrent crimes towards women and I completely condemn it. In fact I think we need to look at having more serious sentences for rapists in Ireland. “But at the same time, I do not think that abortion is the answer to this. “The child should not have to bear the brunt of their father’s crime. The child should not be essentially sentenced to death for what their father has done.”

Ms Ascough, whose father is on the board at the Iona Institute, said Irish women need more support during a crisis pregnancy but argued that legalising abortion would be importing “England’s problem”.

She said her view on abortion is due to her mother having a misscarriage and she was able to hold her dead brother in her arms, looking at his physical appearance, it gave her the reason for her position on abortion.

.........................................................................................................................................................

One of the reasons given by her in respect of her decision to change the wording in the handbook, on legal asvice, was that it put her at risk of a conviction and a conviction meant she would not be able to travel abroud. It's probable that by that she meant travel to the US as her mother is US by birth and she has family in Texas.

Her statement about importing England's problem must be a reference to UK law and how she sees the law as a problem best left abroad, seeing as how abortion is not available here. The fact that such a position leaves irish women [twelve a day by her account in the interview] having to travel abroad for the abortions they want and actually need for medical reasons.

BYW, Miss Ascough's surname is pronounced with the GH silent.

She is really detached from reality with this garbage. The person isn't a "father" in the sense of a family, they are a filthy scumbag rapist. She is off on another planet!

Loafing Oaf

aloyisious wrote: »

Ditto on interpretation of these two parts as well: However a number of delegates wish to see the party go further. Other motions up for debate propose basing party policy on the recommendations of the Citizens Assembly which advocated allowing abortions for the first 12 weeks of a pregnancy....... The Ard Fheis motions and the party’s position on abortion takes on a fresh importance as the Eighth Amendment Committee are due to conclude their work within the next few weeks.
.

Another factor in this is that there is a good chance there will be a Labour government in Britain in the near future, and that government will be keen to extend British abortion law to NI. A sizeable chunk of SF is likely to be on board with that, but they wouldn't want to be seen to have their policy determined by who is in power in Westminster. But if they had adopted a 32-county pro-choice (sort of) policy a year or two beforehand...

volchitsa

Gintonious wrote: »

She is really detached from reality with this garbage. The person isn't a "father" in the sense of a family, they are a filthy scumbag rapist. She is off on another planet!

Technically she's correct though. And there have been cases of rapists suing for shared parenting or other forms of access to children they have fathered by rape, sometimes on girls who were barely into their teens themselves.

aloyisious

Gintonious wrote: »

She is really detached from reality with this garbage. The person isn't a "father" in the sense of a family, they are a filthy scumbag rapist. She is off on another planet!

She's quite a wordsmith. Child, death sentence: emotive words in a sentence meaning any woman or girl made pregnant by rape deciding to have an abortion is sentencing a child to death..... "The child should not be essentially sentenced to death for what their father has done.”

There is no death sentence on our legal books here so there is an implication in what she stated. Neither, except in her words, is there any inplication that any abortion is carried out in lieu of a - or an extra-judicial form of - punishment for the rapist "the child should not have to bear the brunt of the father's crime".

Loafing Oaf

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Growing speculation that the bould Peadar will be jumping ship to FF:

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/three-exsf-councillors-to-target-seat-of-local-party-td-36317708.html

I suspect he may be aware his bid to secure a free vote on abortion is unlikely to succeed is using it to position himself for the mooted jump...

Word on p.ie that the motion to allow TDs freedom of conscience on abortion has been voted down at the SF Ard Fheis, so I'm guessing Peadar will be filling in his application to join FF, if he hasn't already...

They have passed the aforementioned motion that “The party accepts the need for the availability of abortion where a women’s life, health or mental health is at risk, and in cases of fatal foetal abnormality and in the cases or rape or sexual abuse.” (my highlighting)

aloyisious

Watching the A/F now. Yeah, the Free Vote motion was defeated and the party position on abortion stands.

Loafing Oaf

aloyisious wrote: »

Watching the A/F now. Yeah, the Free Vote motion was defeated and the party position on abortion stands.

My understanding is that the 'health' bit is a departure from their previous position, but how much depends on what it means in practice. Michelle O'Neil says it does not amount to a 'British-style' abortion regime, but the experience of other jurisdictions is that abortion for health reasons (especially mental health) is effectively abortion on demand/request.

Hotblack Desiato

It seems SF are chickening out of adopting an explicit pro-choice stance, but that's to be expected. I don't mind if it means another party is adopting a pro-choice stance by the back door, and it's not as if I'd ever vote for them anyway.

What's funny is watching FF turn into an explicitly catholic reactionary party, even as Micheal Martin flaps his arms and denies that's what they are, it's what they are turning into and I doubt anyone currently under 50 i.e. got burned by the economic crisis, as opposed to the older generation who gained from it, will ever even consider voting FF.

O'Cuiv said that the four pillars of Irish society are the Irish language, the GAA, the catholic church and FF. Everyone under 50 regards most of these as toxic, if not downright abusive and detrimental. I detest all four.

aloyisious

This might be a double-edged sword but it's worthwhile posting as a reminder to check that you're on the register of electors if you want to vote in any election or referendum for which you prefer............... Part of the INFORMATION page on the link is about the Citizens Assembly and it's chair's final report to the Oireachtas on June 29 2017

https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.repealeight.ie%2Fvoter-registration%2F&h=ATOV5Qlui23pHsCvD-O-hksN4TfNVyrEJxJFR2r-w3Iq8xcE6m0wjoohYe8g_ItEtW__7xHIDhkdv5PrqbUUZ8X2xzEbIKEdPjzey0NYZd93s4i8T4IqyqulyGyPwklAYVQLscGu9UIM2eGi9Nh__XODksxNoX76Xu7AEsxCTuZ51QBN6S6BtDgin94rphG9YBf1ee1tG5cVGVPBZ_qAlP31yye33Vd2grCLW4q3KgN5pWj8raoz4RAEiYdn--tlwHdMZuWI_xWKLe-9JgXr1GWSVy5MF_XkUJOWSh7PcPR2kQrocf2ib0HcNwIVdtqQbSv5FmTmh1Jrj_ctEvbbvdMVhtmljJYPxj26wOcPl29yz52PH8wvtYbJxj4r3XrlY66rZ3prolI_cblM1VdSWjaaIttouPZ0IMIl2VcV-daK90R__svBetrKulyJA3IgJI3bFFC7CbS3CZ_5r8f9dQRU_X9smeGEeo2AfQ4Z7Hh7BKxKSsTtRxSg_E7oksMcxHaMpzUc9Uujrs_vRPmPpTygb53UV3AAzeg6

Odhinn

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

It seems SF are chickening out of adopting an explicit pro-choice stance, but that's to be expected. I don't mind if it means another party is adopting a pro-choice stance by the back door, and it's not as if I'd ever vote for them anyway.

What's funny is watching FF turn into an explicitly catholic reactionary party, even as Micheal Martin flaps his arms and denies that's what they are, it's what they are turning into and I doubt anyone currently under 50 i.e. got burned by the economic crisis, as opposed to the older generation who gained from it, will ever even consider voting FF.

O'Cuiv said that the four pillars of Irish society are the Irish language, the GAA, the catholic church and FF. Everyone under 50 regards most of these as toxic, if not downright abusive and detrimental. I detest all four.

I'm easy on one and two, harsh on four, and positively psychotic on three.

As regards FF, there was an ard fheis a few years ago, where the stance on abortion seemed to have actually regressed - quite out of step with surveyed public opinion on the matter.

Pherekydes

Interesting development, with the possibility of a new(!) pro-life party being formed, with a focus on the 8th, rural policies and drink driving reforms.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/tds-in-talks-to-form-new-pro-life-party-463071.html

MrPudding

Pherekydes wrote: »

Interesting development, with the possibility of a new(!) pro-life party being formed, with a focus on the 8th, rural policies and drink driving reforms.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/tds-in-talks-to-form-new-pro-life-party-463071.html

Do you know what reforms to drink driving laws they want to prevent?

MrP

Loafing Oaf

The headline says 'rebellion' but IMO the link is closer to the mark with 'dissent' aka 'grumbling'.
http://www.irishnews.com/news/2017/11/20/news/sinn-fe-in-leadership-facing-potential-dissent-over-abortion-vote-1191546/

Francie Molloy said it was unfortunate that some people “keep pushing the boat out further”.

The Mid Ulster MP said motion 144 was akin to “abortion on demand” because a woman only had to say she was depressed to qualify for a termination.

He warned that many of his rural, socially conservative constituents – who are also Ms O’Neill’s constituents – would not welcome the policy shift.

The only thing that would give SF leadership pause on this issue is the threat of a breakaway and I see no sign of that...

aloyisious

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

The headline says 'rebellion' but IMO the link is closer to the mark with 'dissent' aka 'grumbling'.
http://www.irishnews.com/news/2017/11/20/news/sinn-fe-in-leadership-facing-potential-dissent-over-abortion-vote-1191546/



The only thing that would give SF leadership pause on this issue is the threat of a breakaway and I see no sign of that...

Given that SF still have a "Not Sitting In Westminster" policy, there's not much Francie can do to oppose a change in direction.

aloyisious

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

What's funny is watching FF turn into an explicitly catholic reactionary party, even as Micheal Martin flaps his arms and denies that's what they are, it's what they are turning into and I doubt anyone currently under 50 i.e. got burned by the economic crisis, as opposed to the older generation who gained from it, will ever even consider voting FF.

O'Cuiv said that the four pillars of Irish society are the Irish language, the GAA, the catholic church and FF. Everyone under 50 regards most of these as toxic, if not downright abusive and detrimental. I detest all four.

Éamon keeping the party in step with his grand-dad's wishes.

Pherekydes

MrPudding wrote: »

Do you know what reforms to drink driving laws they want to prevent?

MrP

Perhaps they are worried by the idea of rural dwellers being allowed to drive home from the pub with 2 or 3 pints on board?






Well they are pro-life...:rolleyes:

PopePalpatine

I'm curious as to how they'd satisfy the quota for female candidates, but then again, they could call on the Legatus Lackeys to do it.

aloyisious

Looks like FF are tossing Peadar a lifebelt, like the headline. Part of the report below - Fianna Fáil made overtures to Mr Tóibín in 2013 when he was suspended from Sinn Féin for six months after voting against the party position on the Protection of Life during Pregnancy Bill.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/fianna-fail-may-recruit-toibin-over-8th-stance-463135.html