Abortion Discussion, Part Trois

Odhinn

Presumably if he does jump ship there'll be a miraclous transformation of evil shinner to hearty FF'er to rival the holy sacrament itself.

aloyisious

Given how Fianna Fail allowed it's TD's and Senators a free vote while POLDPA was going through the Oireachtas, one wonders if a free vote will be enough to mollify Peadar or will he try insist on a single party position for the repeal or keep the 8th referendum. I can see the FF whips watching him like hawks in case he becomes a dissident independent.

FF has had a history of miraculous changes from day 1. Dev jumped ship in 1926 & founded FF, cos SF had an abstentionist policy towards taking it's Dail seats.

Loafing Oaf

Anyone hazard an informed guess as to what will happen to this whole issue if there's a general election? Would the committee have to reconvened and start work all over again under the new government? I'm sure FF, if they are the main government party, would rather have root canal work than deal with abortion but I can't see how they could just drop the whole issue...

PopePalpatine

It's simple, they'll just re-run the 2002 referendum. :rolleyes:

Hotblack Desiato

If the Dail is dissolved then the Dail committees, as well as any pending bills, evaporate into nothing.

This would be the stupidest reason to have an election ever, and I'm old enough to remember the two elections in 1982 :rolleyes:

Loafing Oaf

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

If the Dail is dissolved then the Dail committees, as well as any pending bills, evaporate into nothing.

This would be the stupidest reason to have an election ever, and I'm old enough to remember the two elections in 1982 :rolleyes:

But they aren’t going to start the committees work from scratch again, invite the same experts back to present the same evidence. Are they?

Loafing Oaf

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

But they aren’t going to start the committees work from scratch again, invite the same experts back to present the same evidence. Are they?

Okay well that fate has been avoided, although it remains to be seen if the current government will be in office when the referendum rolls around, if it ever does. I wonder if there's a FF government by that stage, will they see themselves as bound by whatever 8th amendment-replacing legislation is recommended by the committee...

Another issue I've been pondering is whether SF's (sort-of) conversion to the pro-choice will have any implications for the law in NI. My understanding is that the DUP would still effectively have a veto over any proposed change (assuming Stormont is resurrected)

aloyisious

It's possible that at some time in the future the DUP might change its stance on abortion. There was a post on F/B two days ago about a news story on a new DUP elected member making a Pro same-sex marriage statement, seems he saw no problem with it. Unfortunately I can't find the story or link.

Loafing Oaf

aloyisious wrote: »

It's possible that at some time in the future the DUP might change its stance on abortion. There was a post on F/B two days ago about a news story on a new DUP elected member making a Pro same-sex marriage statement, seems he saw no problem with it. Unfortunately I can't find the story or link.

I think I saw that too. I suspect we may be waiting for the era of jetpacks and hoverboards for a change in the party position though. I think serious liberalisation of the law in NI may require a period of direct rule under a Labour government led by Corbyn or one of his acolytes.

rainbow kirby

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

I think serious liberalisation of the law in NI may require a period of direct rule under a Labour government led by Corbyn or one of his acolytes.

Bring it on, getting the Tories out sounds like an absolute dream right now.

aloyisious

The debate continues on various fronts regardless of the quiet. Friday's Irish Examiner reported that the Oireachtas Abortion Committee will complete a "draft" report on it's findings by Dec 15 before releasing the final document to the Dail on 20 Dec.

The CIE outdoor advertising dept has decided it will not take any advertising requests from either side of the debate due to threats made against it's staff by people who didn't like the ad from the Fathers4Life Group "A Father's Not For A Day" and an advertisement about the last Pro-Choice rally. The ad's ban covers CIE buses, property and outdoor and indoor ad signboards.

Meantime the Pro-Life campaign had their national conference in the RDS on Sunday... https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/anti-abortion-advocates-at-rds-never-right-to-take-human-life-1.3314387

Odhinn

aloyisious wrote: »

The debate continues on various fronts regardless of the quiet. Friday's Irish Examiner reported that the Oireachtas Abortion Committee will complete a "draft" report on it's findings by Dec 15 before releasing the final document to the Dail on 20 Dec.

The CIE outdoor advertising dept has decided it will not take any advertising requests from either side of the debate due to threats made against it's staff by people who didn't like the ad from the Fathers4Life Group "A Father's Not For A Day" and an advertisement about the last Pro-Choice rally. The ad's ban covers CIE buses, property and outdoor and indoor ad signboards.

Meantime the Pro-Life campaign had their national conference in the RDS on Sunday... https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/anti-abortion-advocates-at-rds-never-right-to-take-human-life-1.3314387

Twas a bit of a festival of "halp, I'm being oppressed", going on the news.

Hotblack Desiato

aloyisious wrote: »

The CIE outdoor advertising dept has decided it will not take any advertising requests from either side of the debate due to threats made against it's staff by people who didn't like the ad from the Fathers4Life Group "A Father's Not For A Day" and an advertisement about the last Pro-Choice rally. The ad's ban covers CIE buses, property and outdoor and indoor ad signboards.

Presumably there'll still be godbothering ads in Irish Rail stations though

aloyisious

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Presumably there'll still be godbothering ads in Irish Rail stations though

Good question. I can't recall the extent of the ban in the I/Indo report but think it does include the railway part of CIE, incl its property and Ad stands. The report did mention all 8th amendment debate outdoor and indoor Advertisements on CIE property as banned. Can't find the item online, but there's always the national library on Kildare St with it's copies of each days newspapers.

aloyisious

What's printed below is online in The Times.CO.UK. I copied it from a F/B page covering the abortion issue as I don't have full access to it's page, not being a paid-up subscriber to the Times.

I have read the following sentence and understand the senator to mean "pro-women as Pro-choice of women". However it might be that I and the Times misunderstood the Senator words. @ Admin, pls pardon my extended reposting of the long newspaper article contrary to site rules.

a FF Senator, Ned O'Sullivan, has said he has changed his mind on abortion and is prepared to vote for a new “pro-women” law.
Ned O’Sullivan said the “honour” of being a member of the Oireachtas committee considering the Eighth Amendment gave him access to information he did not have before. Mr O’Sullivan told The Times that he would support a law that puts a woman and her health first.
It has emerged that most of the committee will support decriminalising abortion, removing a possible 14-year prison sentence for women and doctors who perform illegal terminations.
The 21 senators and TDs on the committee will next week vote on whether the Eighth Amendment should be repealed and what kind of legislation would replace it. The committee will hold its penultimate meeting today.
Mr O’Sullivan, who has previously described himself as “pro-life”, said that he had studied the evidence presented to the committee over the past three months very closely.
“Thanks to the honour of being a member of the committee, I have had access to information that I did not have before,” Mr O’Sullivan said. “I am now coming at it from the perspective of being pro-women. I have had a gradual realisation that abortion is a matter for a woman’s health and wellbeing.”
Mr O’Sullivan, who has been a senator since 2007, said he would decide what abortion law he would support at next week’s meeting, but that it was likely to be “centrist, if a little bit liberal”.
The committee will publish a report on December 20 recommending to the Oireachtas what changes to Ireland’s anti-abortion laws, if any, should be made. Mr O’Sullivan said it was incumbent on members of the Dáil to read over the committee’s evidence and inform themselves on the issue.
He said he took “grave exception” to claims that the committee was biased. “I have gone through a process of change . . . and while some people might have very strong views one way or the other, some of us have changed our minds,” Mr O’Sullivan said.
The senator said he had consulted with friends and family on his position before next week’s vote.


At least 11 members of the committee have said that they are prepared to vote in favour of decriminalising abortion.
Several TDs and senators have cited medical evidence from the National Maternity Hospital, the Rotunda, the Institute of Obstetrics and Gynaecology and the World Health Organisation as their reason for supporting removing harsh criminal sanctions for those caught accessing an illegal abortion in Ireland.
The move, if supported by the Oireachtas, would mean that access to abortion is likely to still be restricted under time limits and circumstances but it would be regulated as a health issue rather than a criminal justice one.
It would remove the threat of prosecution for any women who are caught taking illegal abortion pills bought online.
Jonathan O’Brien, the Sinn Féin TD, said that all three members of his party sitting on the committee would support decriminalisation. Mr O’Brien, who had said he was “pro-life”, said he also changed his mind over the course of the committee’s work.
Several TDs expressed concern that the committee’s recommendations for reform might not pass the Dáil as Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael have given their TDs a free vote.
“It keeps me awake at night,” one TD said. “I think that a lot of members of the committee support free access to abortion up to 12 weeks. They won’t recommend that because everyone’s conscious that this report has to make it through the Dáil, or else there’s no referendum.”
There are similar fears within Fianna Fáil, Sinn Féin and Fine Gael, because no party wants to be seen as the reason a referendum does not go ahead.

Loafing Oaf

aloyisious wrote: »

What's printed below is online in The Times.CO.UK. I copied it from a F/B page covering the abortion issue as I don't have full access to it's page, not being a paid-up subscriber to the Times.

I have read the following sentence and understand the senator to mean "pro-women as Pro-choice of women". However it might be that I and the Times misunderstood the Senator words. @ Admin, pls pardon my extended reposting of the long newspaper article contrary to site rules.

a FF Senator, Ned O'Sullivan, has said he has changed his mind on abortion and is prepared to vote for a new “pro-women” law.
Ned O’Sullivan said the “honour” of being a member of the Oireachtas committee considering the Eighth Amendment gave him access to information he did not have before. Mr O’Sullivan told The Times that he would support a law that puts a woman and her health first.
It has emerged that most of the committee will support decriminalising abortion, removing a possible 14-year prison sentence for women and doctors who perform illegal terminations.
The 21 senators and TDs on the committee will next week vote on whether the Eighth Amendment should be repealed and what kind of legislation would replace it. The committee will hold its penultimate meeting today.
Mr O’Sullivan, who has previously described himself as “pro-life”, said that he had studied the evidence presented to the committee over the past three months very closely.
“Thanks to the honour of being a member of the committee, I have had access to information that I did not have before,” Mr O’Sullivan said. “I am now coming at it from the perspective of being pro-women. I have had a gradual realisation that abortion is a matter for a woman’s health and wellbeing.”
Mr O’Sullivan, who has been a senator since 2007, said he would decide what abortion law he would support at next week’s meeting, but that it was likely to be “centrist, if a little bit liberal”.
The committee will publish a report on December 20 recommending to the Oireachtas what changes to Ireland’s anti-abortion laws, if any, should be made. Mr O’Sullivan said it was incumbent on members of the Dáil to read over the committee’s evidence and inform themselves on the issue.
He said he took “grave exception” to claims that the committee was biased. “I have gone through a process of change . . . and while some people might have very strong views one way or the other, some of us have changed our minds,” Mr O’Sullivan said.
The senator said he had consulted with friends and family on his position before next week’s vote.


At least 11 members of the committee have said that they are prepared to vote in favour of decriminalising abortion.
Several TDs and senators have cited medical evidence from the National Maternity Hospital, the Rotunda, the Institute of Obstetrics and Gynaecology and the World Health Organisation as their reason for supporting removing harsh criminal sanctions for those caught accessing an illegal abortion in Ireland.
The move, if supported by the Oireachtas, would mean that access to abortion is likely to still be restricted under time limits and circumstances but it would be regulated as a health issue rather than a criminal justice one.
It would remove the threat of prosecution for any women who are caught taking illegal abortion pills bought online.
Jonathan O’Brien, the Sinn Féin TD, said that all three members of his party sitting on the committee would support decriminalisation. Mr O’Brien, who had said he was “pro-life”, said he also changed his mind over the course of the committee’s work.
Several TDs expressed concern that the committee’s recommendations for reform might not pass the Dáil as Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael have given their TDs a free vote.
“It keeps me awake at night,” one TD said. “I think that a lot of members of the committee support free access to abortion up to 12 weeks. They won’t recommend that because everyone’s conscious that this report has to make it through the Dáil, or else there’s no referendum.”
There are similar fears within Fianna Fáil, Sinn Féin and Fine Gael, because no party wants to be seen as the reason a referendum does not go ahead.

I'm skeptical that any TDs would genuinely have their minds change by evidence at the committee. I suspect FF are looking to move to a more liberal position for political reasons and the CA and committee are giving them cover.

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volchitsa

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Lots of people who get a diagnosis of a major problem like anencephaly during pregnancy only find out at that stage that there's no exemption from the abortion ban, and that they are expected to continue the pregnancy no matter what.

I think the vast majority of the population would have been unaware of that fact until very recently, with the coverage of the Assembly and the Committee. I'm not surprised that someone sitting on the committee would learn things he had never imagined possible.

Prolife propaganda was very very effective in convincing people that there was no downside to the 8th except the inconvenience of a trip to Liverpool. And they'd nearly convinced quite a lot of people that that was just a shopping trip with a quick stop for a "lunchtime abortion" thrown in.

aloyisious

The Examiner report on speech by Katherine Zappone, Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, this evening... Thursday, December 07, 2017 - 06:05 pm.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/childrens-minister-details-her-exact-position-on-repealing-the-8th-amendment-817679.html

The Children's Minister, Katherine Zappone, says abortion without restriction should be available up to the 12th week of a pregnancy.

In a speech to be given this evening, Ms Zappone will say women should not have to justify their decision to anyone.

It has been known that the Minister is in favour of repealing the 8th Amendment, but in a speech due to be given in Dublin City University she goes into more detail.

Ms Zappone says the 8th Amendment should be repealed and not replaced with any other text in the Constitution

She wants to decriminalise abortion and says a termination should be available on request up to the 12th week of a pregnancy

She goes further to say that, while she sees some argument in limiting abortion after the 12th week, it should not just be in extreme cases of risk to life, fatal foetal abnormality or rape.

Ms Zappone argues those terms would help almost none of the women in Ireland who seek abortions.

In her speech, the Minister says it is time to repeal the 8th Amendment and to reclaim women's bodies from the State.

recedite

aloyisious wrote: »

The Children's Minister, Katherine Zappone, says abortion without restriction should be available up to the 12th week of a pregnancy.

It seems very specific, I wonder if this is a kite flying exercise for govt.policy and a possible referendum wording?
The wording would have to be very short, but it could go something along the lines of "no restrictions for abortion up to 12 weeks, but the govt. may legislate for restrictions after that in recognition of right to life of the unborn".
Would probably be winnable as a referendum.

Loafing Oaf

recedite wrote: »

It seems very specific, I wonder if this is a kite flying exercise for govt.policy and a possible referendum wording?
The wording would have to be very short, but it could go something along the lines of "no restrictions for abortion up to 12 weeks, but the govt. may legislate for restrictions after that in recognition of right to life of the unborn".
Would probably be winnable as a referendum.

She's saying no replacement article in the constitution.

Edit: A majority of committee members also favour this.

recedite

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

She's saying no replacement article in the constitution.

Edit: A majority of committee members also favour this.

OK, I missed that bit. Probably less "winnable" so, but still in with a good chance.

aloyisious

Going on the basis that a majority of the committee would be minded to delete the 8th, and knowing the way things are sorted out by the politicians and legal wordsmiths here, I can see the voter being given A, B or C options: Amend, Keep Intact or Delete the 8th.

That way those politicians who want or choose to do so can wash their hands [Pontius-like] and blame the mob, those voters who get a touch of the colly-wobbles on the day can say they made their choice in good faith/kept their word while the voters on the losing side [bound to be such a group] can assert there was diabolical action in the background. There'll also be a degree of confusion due to the choices "oh, I thought it meant".......

Loafing Oaf

aloyisious wrote: »

Going on the basis that a majority of the committee would be minded to delete the 8th, and knowing the way things are sorted out by the politicians and legal wordsmiths here, I can see the voter being given A, B or C options: Amend, Keep Intact or Delete the 8th.

As far as I know, referendums under the Irish constitution can only ask yes/no questions.

Nick Park

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

As far as I know, referendums under the Irish constitution can only ask yes/no questions.

That is correct. I understand that any provision for a Preferendum would itself need to be inserted into the Constitution by a Referendum.

recedite

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

As far as I know, referendums under the Irish constitution can only ask yes/no questions.

I think so, but it might be possible to be creative and have several different amendments/questions.
For example
1. Delete the 8th from the constitution.
2. Replace the 8th with x wording.
If no. 1 loses and no. 2 wins, then the replacement is the result.
If both win, the same result.

If no. 1 wins and no. 2 loses, then repeal with no replacement is the result.

aloyisious

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

As far as I know, referendums under the Irish constitution can only ask yes/no questions.

I'm not sure if this help's or makes it as clear as dishwater [about questions to the people]. This is in the referendum commission handbook:What is a Referendum?
A Referendum is a vote by the People on a proposed amendment to the Constitution. If a simple majority vote Yes the amendment is approved and the appropriate words in the Constitution are removed and/or inserted. If a simple majority vote No the document remains unchanged. A Referendum is governed by Articles 46 and 47 of the Constitution.

Link:.... http://www.refcom.ie/en/Frequently-Asked-Questions/

An amendment to the present wording of the 8th can be made by vote, if the amendment to the constitution was on the voters referendum form for completion and voting on. If the amendment wasn't carried, the 8th would be intact so you are right on that, poorly thought-through idea by me.

There would be no need to vote on keeping the 8th intact. The change in wording option is generally what I have voted on in the past on changes to the constitution.

A 2nd question that could be on a separate voters form: Keep or Delete the 8th in it's entirety from the constitution.

As I now see it, an amendment to the constitution wouldn't merely be by a change in wording to an existing amendment in the constitution, it could be by way of an actual deletion of an actual existing amendment, to with; the 8th itself.

A lot of us have filled in and voted on multiple voting forms at voting stations.

PopePalpatine

62% (+/-2.8%) support repealing/replacing the 8th Amendment, according to the latest Irish Times/Ipsos MRBI poll. 13% are undecided, and there's increased support amongst young voters, urban voters and middle/upper-class voters.

aloyisious

PopePalpatine wrote: »

62% (+/-2.8%) support repealing/replacing the 8th Amendment, according to the latest Irish Times/Ipsos MRBI poll. 13% are undecided, and there's increased support amongst young voters, urban voters and middle/upper-class voters.

Sway the 13% towards safe ground, an agreement to amending the wording of the 8th to allow for abortion up to 12 weeks, is probably the better option to ensure women do get the right to choose for themselves, however restrictive that might turn out. Keep up the pressure for deletion of the 8th, with relaxation of the law on abortion as a second, but keep the important in mind, the prime right of freedom of choice for women must be with women, and not some-one with an imprisoning opinion of abortion. As for the 27% +/-, they can be swayed as well.

I'm waiting for the "deletion of the 8th will mean the POLDP would have no legal standing" lie to be used again.

Loafing Oaf

Committee apparently set to recommend "abortion without restriction in the first 12 weeks of pregnancy." Strangely three FF TDs in favour but SF contingent opposed.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/ireland/no-restriction-on-abortion-in-first-12-weeks-say-tds-vkdrmtlf9

I wonder would there be a strong onus on the government to follow this line...