Abortion Discussion, Part Trois

mcmoustache

I'm a bit surprised by the exit poll. Then again I was surprised by the result of the marriage referendum.

It's clear that I'm not giving this country enough credit. I think I'm spending too much time watching the car-crashes in the UK and in the US. Fúck them, go Ireland.

Akrasia

Ireland entered the 21st century today. Well done everyone. women's reproductive rights are an essential component of a modern democracy. Now let's make sure that all the other pieces of the puzzle are in place so that there are fewer crisis pregnancies and fewer abortions.

Both sides of this debate need to unite to improve family planning services and guarantee universal access to contraception. Kids need to grow up understanding the consequences of their sexuality and the boundaries between consent and exploration and exploitation.

Bringing a child into this world needs to stop being an accident or a punishment and it needs to become a conscious choice to accept the responsibilities and life changing burdens of raising a child.

Stop loving every embryo, and make sure every baby starts life being loved.

PopePalpatine

So...where's John Waters emigrating to? I'd say El Salvador's total ban on abortion makes it a dark horse in the market.

mcmoustache

Akrasia wrote: »

Ireland entered the 21st century today.

We started that three years ago with the marriage referendum. I was sure we'd pass this but I thought it would be closer. Old catholic Ireland is gone. And about time too.

aloyisious

Akrasia wrote: »

Ireland entered the 21st century today. Well done everyone. women's reproductive rights are an essential component of a modern democracy. Now let's make sure that all the other pieces of the puzzle are in place so that there are fewer crisis pregnancies and fewer abortions.

Both sides of this debate need to unite to improve family planning services and guarantee universal access to contraception. Kids need to grow up understanding the consequences of their sexuality and the boundaries between consent and exploration and exploitation.

Bringing a child into this world needs to stop being an accident or a punishment and it needs to become a conscious choice to accept the responsibilities and life changing burdens of raising a child.

Stop loving every embryo, and make sure every baby starts life being loved.

We're going to have to succeed in taking the schools back from church patronage and it's estranged understanding of life to ensure a proper sex educatio system is put in place so the generations of pre-teens know the facts of life outside the present version of sex education, so that they will be able to handle their bodies with respect for the O/P.

antiskeptic

aloyisious wrote: »

We're going to have to succeed in taking the schools back from church patronage and it's estranged understanding of life to ensure a proper sex educatio system is put in place so the generations of pre-teens know the facts of life outside the present version of sex education, so that they will be able to handle their bodies with respect for the O/P.

Funny. Talking to my wife after d'exit poll, I said the next bit of business en route to a brave new world (even if there isn't actually anything new under the Sun) would be wresting schools away from the Catholic Church (of which I'm no fan)

The need to sex educate being the thin end of the wedge.

Be the hand that rocks the cradle. In the event a child makes it that far.

Mission, bit by bit, being accomplished

mcmoustache

antiskeptic wrote: »

Funny. Talking to my wife after d'exit poll, I said the next bit of business en route to a brave new world (even if there isn't actually anything new under the Sun) would be wresting schools away from the Catholic Church (of which I'm no fan)

The need to sex educate being the thin end of the wedge.

Be the hand that rocks the cradle. In the event a child makes it that far.

Mission, bit by bit, being accomplished

It's terrible. People learning about reproductive health will be the downfall of this country.


Excusing my snarkiness for a second, you're correct that divesting schools will probably be next or maybe hospitals.

aloyisious

mcmoustache wrote: »

I'm a bit surprised by the exit poll. Then again I was surprised by the result of the marriage referendum.

It's clear that I'm not giving this country enough credit. I think I'm spending too much time watching the car-crashes in the UK and in the US. Fúck them, go Ireland.

The videos of people coming through the airports who travelled back home to vote yes are terrific, and the woman who said she came back so no other women nees travel made a very telling point. Until the proposed abortion legislation get's past any roadblocks put in it's path to block it from becoming law, the journeys abroad will have to continue. The fight is lost but the likes of McGrath won't cede to reality.

magicbastarder

so i wonder when ireland *did* actually cross the 50/50 rubicon on this. longer ago than we'd previously suspected, by the looks of it.

robindch

antiskeptic wrote: »

The need to sex educate being the thin end of the wedge.

Couldn't agree more - comprehensive, science-based education which provides people with accurate information about their bodies is known to be one of the best ways to prevent teenage pregnancies and behaviors which lead to risky outcomes.

Higher rates of teen pregnancies are also closely associated with lower economic status, higher religiosity and stricter law regulating abortion.

robindch

recedite wrote: »

Member states of the EU don't get to decide on their relationships with states outside the EU.

To correct you again - broadly speaking, yes, EU countries do decide most aspects of their relations with states outside the EU - that's why the EU only has a "High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy" (currently Federica Mogherini) while each EU member states as its own Minister for Foreign Affairs, or the equivalent thereof. And why each member state maintains their own diplomatic services, networks of embassies and so on.

You're probably thinking of the right to negotiate trade agreements which is an EU competency, and not unreasonably so, since each country is a member of the Customs Union and the Single Market so each country's customs and tariff arrangements are necessarily part of everybody else's customs and tariff arrangements. That's separate to the observation that trade negotiators have much greater negotiating power at the EU level than they do at the national level. And experience too.

The UK is currently learning this slowly too, since most of the countries with which the Brexit ultras say they wish to do something called "strike trade deals" are working to complete EU trade deals before starting off on anything specific to the UK.

Bannasidhe

magicbastarder wrote: »

so i wonder when ireland *did* actually cross the 50/50 rubicon on this. longer ago than we'd previously suspected, by the looks of it.

Personally, I think the election of Mary Robinson was a turning point in Ireland. It was the first indication that the old Ireland - which reached frenzied 'heights' in the 80s - was dying on it's feet.
I know that, myself included, after Robinson's election many of the left leaning liberal Irish who had run screaming to the UK in the 80s (where we became politically involved and learnt the ropes as it were) began to come back.

Yes, A lot of the impetus for change were 'own goals' like the clerical abuse scandals but the significant thing is that in the 90s these began to be spoken about. Finally, in the 90s the silence was shattered.

I had to give a presentation recently about LGBT history and at the end I remarked that I never thought I would see the day that I would look around the world and say "thank f*ck I live in Ireland" - the old warhorses in the room erupted with a roar of good humoured ironic AMEN TO THAT.

recedite

aloyisious wrote: »

The videos of people coming through the airports who travelled back home to vote yes are terrific..

Most of them are never going to live in Ireland again, and have been out of the country for way longer than the 18 months threshold. So while theres a great "feel good factor" attached to it, those of us who live by our principles can never be enthralled by illegal voting.
But that is the nature of liberalism, it looks not to create nor to preserve but to tear down for short term pleasure, we live in unheroic times when peoples lives are not worth remembering.

robindch wrote: »

To correct you again - broadly speaking, yes, EU countries do decide most aspects of their relations with states outside the EU...

How is it "correcting me" when you concede the point? But thanks anyway for the unpology.

pleas advice

magicbastarder wrote: »

so i wonder when ireland *did* actually cross the 50/50 rubicon on this. longer ago than we'd previously suspected, by the looks of it.

I read in the AH thread, according to exit polls that 73% of yes voters hadn't changed their opinion on it in the last 5 years.
Presuming there was no change of voters from yes to no, that would put it just around 50% 5 years ago.

smacl

recedite wrote: »

But that is the nature of liberalism, it looks not to create nor to preserve but to tear down for short term pleasure, we live in unheroic times when peoples lives are not worth remembering.

Liberalism is forward facing, progressive and embraces change through promoting equality and celebrating diversity. Conservatism on the other hand is backward facing, regressive and seeks to preserve a status quo that favours an elite minority. It seems clear from this referendum, and the marriage equality referendum before it, that the people of Ireland place great value on equality and fair treatment for all, even where that runs contrary to their own conservative religious education. Personally, this makes me very proud to be Irish and what that has come to mean.

recedite

smacl wrote: »

embraces change..

Indeed, a political decision has been made to bring abortion home, and that will only be achieved when abortion laws are "equal" on both sides of the Irish sea.

Hopefully we won't end up with the other results of "liberal" policies that they have been inflicted with over there. I see Tommy Robinson was arrested and secretly jailed yesterday for practicing freedom of speech. He was standing in the street outside a court, livestreaming the comings and goings of suspected muslim gang rapists. You can't say boo about these guys for fear of being called a racist. But you can be locked away for filming them, and the media can be gagged to prevent them complaining when an activist disappears.

aloyisious

magicbastarder wrote: »

so i wonder when ireland *did* actually cross the 50/50 rubicon on this. longer ago than we'd previously suspected, by the looks of it.

And the re-location of Irish people to foreign countries where they could explore how abortion, and the way issue was made of it, was handled outside the home of irish national culture, and probably had a large degree in changing their perspective and understanding of the abortion issue broadening their education on it's human complexity. It may well have been over a long period, with each different wave of Irish emigrants learning that in their own time.

It can explain how in this and the last referendum there were returnees coming back to vote change in the home of Irish national culture, "illegal" or otherwise. The emigrants had realised things needed to be changed "at home" even if they were going to travel away again from Ireland and possibly be unaffected by the changes they helped make.

Liberalism has nothing to do with it when one is not staying around to take advantage of it. In this case it's just an "Ism-word" being used by the losing side to excuse their loss through not being able to keep in touch with their fellow irish citizens and youth.

smacl

recedite wrote: »

I see Tommy Robinson was arrested and secretly jailed yesterday for practicing freedom of speech.

Not the first time Tommy Robinson's been arrested nor no doubt the last, breach of the peace this time from what I gather. A pretty unpleasant far right thug from so far as I can see. If that's your poster boy for conservatism I'd suggest you've an even lower opinion of what it means to be conservative than I do.

magicbastarder

recedite wrote: »

Most of them are never going to live in Ireland again, and have been out of the country for way longer than the 18 months threshold. So while theres a great "feel good factor" attached to it, those of us who live by our principles can never be enthralled by illegal voting.

interesting exchange on twitter in the last few days between julia hartley brewer and dara o'briain, where she was complaining about people returning home to vote in the referendum, after having left the country in the last 18 months. someone pointed out that in the UK, they facilitate this by post for people who have left within the last fifteen *years*.

magicbastarder

recedite wrote: »

I see Tommy Robinson was arrested and secretly jailed yesterday for practicing freedom of speech. He was standing in the street outside a court, livestreaming the comings and goings of suspected muslim gang rapists.

not much of a bloody secret when it was reported on major news sites.
he was already on a suspended sentence for contempt of court in somewhat similar circumstances.

and yes, often rapist's identities are protected so as to protect the identities of their victims. it's not up to him to decide this cannot be the case.

antiskeptic

mcmoustache wrote: »

It's terrible. People learning about reproductive health will be the downfall of this country.

Not at all against sex ed. That's the trojan horse. Just like hard cases were a trojan horse.


A landslide for yes but a split down the middle on the question of a.o.d

smacl

antiskeptic wrote: »

Not at all against sex ed. That's the trojan horse. Just like hard cases were a trojan horse.


A landslide for yes but a split down the middle on the question of a.o.d

That's on request, not on demand. Pretty much like the Dutch system that I gather you hold in high regard.

pauldla

smacl wrote: »

antiskeptic wrote: »

Not at all against sex ed. That's the trojan horse. Just like hard cases were a trojan horse.


A landslide for yes but a split down the middle on the question of a.o.d

That's on request, not on demand. Pretty much like the Dutch system that I gather you hold in high regard.

I thought he was against the Dutch, as they were an immigrant culture bringing gender-selective abortions into Ireland? Or was it a different group?

ohnonotgmail

antiskeptic wrote: »

Not at all against sex ed. That's the trojan horse. Just like hard cases were a trojan horse.


A landslide for yes but a split down the middle on the question of a.o.d

I didnt realise they asked this specifically on the ballot paper. I must have missed it. Do you have the results you can share?

recedite

magicbastarder wrote: »

not much of a bloody secret

What was the sentence then, and what prison has he been taken to? Strange that RTE and BBC reporters often stand outside a court livestreaming the comings and goings, yet never seem to be arrested.

smacl

recedite wrote: »

What was the sentence then, and what prison has he been taken to? Strange that RTE and BBC reporters often stand outside a court livestreaming the comings and goings, yet never seem to be arrested.

He was already out on a suspended sentence, so doesn't need to be re-tried to go back to prison. From the UK Indo

Robinson is already under a suspended sentence for committing contempt of court over a gang rape case heard in Canterbury last year.
Judge Heather Norton handed him a three months imprisonment in May last year but suspended it for 18 months on the condition he did not commit further offences.

If he was from around here, he's the type that would be described in the media as 'known to the police'. Outside of landing in prison, his extremism has also got him a lifetime ban from mainstream social media. Given that he'd make Margret Thatcher look like a moderate, this is hardly surprising.

smacl

pauldla wrote: »

I thought he was against the Dutch, as they were an immigrant culture bringing gender-selective abortions into Ireland? Or was it a different group?

Nope, the Dutch are apparently far more sophisticated than us muck savages, linky.

magicbastarder

recedite wrote: »

What was the sentence then, and what prison has he been taken to? Strange that RTE and BBC reporters often stand outside a court livestreaming the comings and goings, yet never seem to be arrested.

you missed the point. he was trying to livestream a hearing on child grooming. major issues of confidentiality there. at least with professional journalists, they know what they can and can't record outside or inside a court or legal proceeding.

aloyisious

Interesting comment by Michael Martin [FF] that some of those who voted no may have done so because of the 12 week part of the proposed legislation and nothing else. So, if he's right, is that the SOLE reason why some here are aganst the promised legislation on abortion here and if it was not in the legislation, would they have voted YES?

Re the Donegal vote result, it'd be interesting to figure out if it was a part of the supposed rural/urban divide on the voting or if it was because of it's historical "Ulster" link, given how the "north" aseem's to be the largest part of Ireland with a bias against abortion being made legal.

end of the road

aloyisious wrote: »

Interesting comment by Michael Martin [FF] that some of those who voted no may have done so because of the 12 week part of the proposed legislation and nothing else. So, if he's right, is that the SOLE reason why some here are aganst the promised legislation on abortion here and if it was not in the legislation, would they have voted YES?

absolutely. the 12 weeks unrestricted was why i and many others voted no . no other reason.