Abortion Discussion, Part Trois

aloyisious

David Quinn has one of his opinion pieces in today's Irish Independent, which is available online, so I won't bother putting up the link. In it he start's by mentioning our financial crash and how those who pointed it out in advance were treated badly. He opines that that was due to groupthink and goes on to say the marriage referendum was won by groupthink and the 38% who voted against it were treated badly. In his piece, David opines that those who are pro-abortion here are also guilty of groupthink and it's opponents are like the people who warned of the risk of a financial bust before the bust. I'd imagine from it that he sees himself and other opponents as prophets not welcome in their own land, warning people of the risk of lemming-like behaviour in a rush for the cliff-edge.

Before any-one goes reading David's opinion-piece, it's worth saying that there are only a few lines on this thread issue in the rather lengthy piece, so don't be disappointed at the small relevant content in the piece.

PlainP

http://www.rabble.ie/2016/01/31/easter-despising/

They're at it again. "Good" Christians harassing young women/girls/mothers outside the abortion referral clinic.

Have these dick*heads nothing better to be doing with their time.

Cabaal

Abortion rules in Zika-affected countries

Some governments in Latin America have advised women not to get pregnant for a matter of months or years, because of the risk of birth defects from the Zika virus.

It is suspected that there is a link between expectant mothers getting Zika, and their babies being born with microcephaly (an abnormally small head). This can be deadly, and some children who survive face intellectual disability, vision problems and development delays.

A group of Brazilian lawyers, activists and scientists have decided to ask the country's supreme court to allow abortions for women who have contracted the virus.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-35438404

What has the Vatican said?

Latin America is largely Catholic. The Church opposes all forms of abortion. Contraception is also against Church rules, but this is more regularly flouted by believers across the world.

The BBC asked the Vatican press office on Friday whether teaching would be amended on contraception or abortion. A spokesperson said: "For the moment there is no comment about this."

Typical response from the Vatican then eh?

Are women having abortions in countrys where its illegal in South America? Yes. Researchers at the Guttmacher Foundation said there were 32 abortions per 1,000 women in Latin America in 2008.

Let that settle in for a moment.....
32 likely back street abortions for women that feel they have no other choice but to risk their lives!

Liamario

http://youtu.be/r79EPJp9-CM

This just came up as an advert on YouTube... Talk about tacky.

Who is 'Equality Starts Here'. I could hazard a guess, but I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

aloyisious

PlainP wrote: »

http://www.rabble.ie/2016/01/31/easter-despising/

They're at it again. "Good" Christians harassing young women/girls/mothers outside the abortion referral clinic.

Have these dick*heads nothing better to be doing with their time.

Despite what they indicate in "The Rabble" report, the prayer-people aren't always outside the Marie Stopes clinic on Berkeley Rd. Thought they number up to 5 at times, it's usually 2, and of different genders. I pass by it regularly enough. They also don't stop at offering "real compassion" to women outside the clinic. They will occasionally follow women leaving the clinic down the road to other nearby streets, trying to engage them in conversation, while the women clearly try to ignore them.

The reference to the clinic in the document as "this place" and "it's abortion mills" and it's clients "women suffering after abortion" show's a rigid point of view, not one accepting the "here and now" situation the women actually face speak's volumes. The premises next to the clinic bought/rented for religious-group purposes doesn't appear to have been in much use, remaining shuttered, the literature and notices in it's facade referring to abortions have disappeared.

Cabaal

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2016/02/01/the-eighth-debate/

Tonight.

At 7pm in the Davis Theatre at Trinity College Dublin.

Trinity’s student union and its law society will hold a debate about the legal consequences of repealing the 8th amendment.

Speakers will include lecturer in law at the University of Kent Mairead Enright; Professor Fiona de Londras, chair of Global Legal Studies at the University of Birmingham; and Professor William Binchy, former Regius Professor of Laws and a Fellow of Trinity College.

FIGHT!

Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/events/949811808401424/

Hotblack Desiato

Binchy was the architect of the eighth amendment, he confidently assured everyone at the time that all of the things which subsequently came to pass could not happen...

Absolam

So, did anyone attend? Looks like it could have been interesting.

aloyisious

Heard about it too late to attend. There's these report-links though.... https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjs8vTZ-djKAhUF2BoKHQ2KBAoQFggiMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.universitytimes.ie%2F2016%2F02%2Fdebate-on-legal-consequences-of-repeal-of-eighth-descends-into-exchange-on-morals%2F&usg=AFQjCNHDIg3rzSHPgDPZcIbMMYSiIaP3_A

https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjs8vTZ-djKAhUF2BoKHQ2KBAoQFgg0MAM&url=http%3A%2F%2Ftrinitynews.ie%2Fprofessors-debate-irelands-8th-amendment-at-lawsoc-event%2F&usg=AFQjCNHK35wimbSDRJXYvchDSO-xza3k_A

Absolam

Interesting, and especially interesting the different ways each reports it. I think I would have enjoyed attending.

Cabaal

Anything good in the The Times today?

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/irishnews/article4681477.ece

A mother of two who was pregnant with a baby suffering from a fatal foetal abnormality claims that she was advised to travel to Britain to undergo the first part of a termination before travelling home and faking a miscarriage.

Sarah, whose name has been changed to protect her identity, said she was told to travel to a British hospital to have an injection that would stop her baby’s heart, before returning to Ireland

Business as usual then, exporting our problems instead of providing proper healthcare and support for women in Ireland.

I feel so sorry for the doctors trying to help women in such a situation in the only proper way they can, there hands are tied but a backwards law that hurts women and couples.

Absolam

Cabaal wrote: »

Anything good in the The Times today?
Business as usual then, exporting our problems instead of providing proper healthcare and support for women in Ireland.
I feel so sorry for the doctors trying to help women in such a situation in the only proper way they can, there hands are tied but a backwards law that hurts women and couples.

I feel sorry for couples in that position too. I'll admit characterising her situation as 'business as usual' seems a rather mercenary segue-way into co-opting her misfortune to serve an agenda that far outreaches her circumstances, but I suspect that possibility wasn't lost on Ms Coyne either, who managed to make four articles of it.

Shrap

Absolam wrote: »

I feel sorry for couples in that position too. I'll admit characterising her situation as 'business as usual' seems a rather mercenary segue-way into co-opting her misfortune to serve an agenda that far outreaches her circumstances, but I suspect that possibility wasn't lost on Ms Coyne either, who managed to make four articles of it.

Loving how you describe this characterisation as mercenary, rather than the position that put her there in the first place - the necessity of avoidance at all cost of having an abortion on Irish soil. Her misfortune could have been much lessened were it not for that.

Absolam

Shrap wrote: »

Loving how you describe this characterisation as mercenary, rather than the position that put her there in the first place - the necessity of avoidance at all cost of having an abortion on Irish soil. Her misfortune could have been much lessened were it not for that.

I'm not sure who benefits from preventing the deaths of the unborn other than the unborn, and I'm dubious that acting to help someone else without gaining any benefit (apart from perhaps the pleasure of their company some time in the future?) can be called mercenary. But I do agree that there's an argument to be made for lessening the misfortune of people in Sarahs circumstance. I think you knew that already though

Shrap

Absolam wrote: »

I'm not sure who benefits from preventing the deaths of the unborn other than the unborn, and I'm dubious that acting to help someone else without gaining any benefit (apart from perhaps the pleasure of their company some time in the future?) can be called mercenary. But I do agree that there's an argument to be made for lessening the misfortune of people in Sarahs circumstance. I think you knew that already though

Certainly haven't picked up on that from you (the smiley face assumes too much).

Nobody has described acting to help someone else without gaining any benefit as mercenary, so that makes no sense whatsoever. And the unborn in this case was not going to be benefited by having its death prevented, was it? In fact, it was possibly a kindness to speed up the process.

Cabaal

I only see Absolam's posts when quoted so hence why I normally won't respond. But the reality is keeping a fetus with a fatal abnormality "alive" is detrimental to the mother's mental well being. She knows its fetal, if she clearly wants to put an end to things early without going to term and giving birth to a fetus that will either be dead when born or dead very very shortly after birth then that is her decision.

To ignore her decision and the reality of the situation ignores the women's mental health and her bodily integrity, in this day and age to simply ignore the mental well being of a person is desperate.

In addition, Absolam claiming you're not sure who benefits from this situation is disingenuous when you know the stresses such a situation puts on a mother. Yet you seem to get some weird kick out of looking to unnecessarily prolonging the mental anguish for a women in this situation and claiming that an abortion benefits nobody. The fetus has a fatal fetal abnormality, it will not benefit from coming to term...unless you think suffering, pain and death after coming to term is a benefit.

Kev W

Cabaal wrote: »

The fetus has a fatal fetal abnormality, it will not benefit from coming to term...unless you think suffering, pain and death after coming to term is a benefit.

Remember, it's about quantity of life, not quality of life.

Cabaal

More on The Times story

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2016/02/03/i-was-told-to-fake-a-miscarriage/

A mother of two who was pregnant with a baby suffering from a fatal foetal abnormality claims that she was advised to travel to Britain to undergo the first part of a termination before travelling home and faking a miscarriage.

Sarah, whose name has been changed to protect her identity, said she was told to travel to a British hospital to have an injection that would stop her baby’s heart, before returning to Ireland and saying that she believed that she had miscarried.

However, her consultant allegedly declined to confirm that Sarah would be cared for on her return home when contacted by British doctors.

Sarah described her experience as “horrific” and said that she was forced to travel to Britain twice before finally having a termination at almost 24 weeks. She ended up having to smuggle her son’s body home in the back of her car and then became seriously ill with sepsis.

“When I came back to Ireland I was to present myself at [the hospital] with lack of movement. I was not supposed to tell them what I had done. I had to play out this drama; what’s our story? What’s the lie I have to keep up?” Sarah said.

“They were going to scan me, they were going to tell me that they were very sorry, that the baby had passed away. I was not to let on that I had had a feticide injection, and then I was supposed to be induced and deliver.”

“…Three consultant obstetricians have separately confirmed to The Times that they were aware of other Irish hospitals telling women they can go to England for the first half of a termination.”

“One said that consultants who told women about the practice could face legal action if they were seen to be taking part in the second half of an illegal abortion.”

lazygal

Did her consultant tell another medical professional that treatment would be refused to a woman who has availed of a service that is legal in the UK on her return to Ireland? How would such treatment be refused? Am I reading that right, that doctors can refuse to treat a pregnant woman who has availed of termination services elsewhere?

Shrap

lazygal wrote: »

Did her consultant tell another medical professional that treatment would be refused to a woman who has availed of a service that is legal in the UK on her return to Ireland? How would such treatment be refused? Am I reading that right, that doctors can refuse to treat a pregnant woman who has availed of termination services elsewhere?

It doesn't say that as far as I can see. I imagine that she wouldn't be refused treatment, but telling consultants about her trip to England for the purposes of abortion and then carrying out the second part of the abortion at home (delivery of dead fetus) would presumably leave her open to prosecution.

lazygal

Shrap wrote: »

It doesn't say that as far as I can see. I imagine that she wouldn't be refused treatment, but telling consultants about her trip to England for the purposes of abortion and then carrying out the second part of the abortion at home (delivery of dead fetus) would presumably leave her open to prosecution.

her consultant allegedly declined to confirm that Sarah would be cared for on her return home when contacted by British doctors

That line would suggest to me that Sarah could be refused care from doctors after travelling home. There's a chilling effect there-the attitude might come across as being supportive of the right to travel while implying that if you do so, don't expect the right to medical treatment on your return. That could put women off seeking medical help.

Shrap

lazygal wrote: »

her consultant allegedly declined to confirm that Sarah would be cared for on her return home when contacted by British doctors

That line would suggest to me that Sarah could be refused care from doctors after travelling home. There's a chilling effect there-the attitude might come across as being supportive of the right to travel while implying that if you do so, don't expect the right to medical treatment on your return. That could put women off seeking medical help.

For sure. Mind you, the chilling effect includes the fact that her consultant could hardly ask other consultants to verify she'd be cared for after the event.

lazygal

Shrap wrote: »

For sure. Mind you, the chilling effect includes the fact that her consultant could hardly ask other consultants to verify she'd be cared for after the event.

This is a real gap in information. It is legal to travel and have an abortion elsewhere. Why would a doctor imply that treatment after a legal medical service has been availed of cannot be guaranteed here? If you turn up and admit having taken an abortion pill, would women be refused treatment? Is the attitude or advice that knowing in advance that a woman may need treatment after a termination leads doctors to decline to confirm such treatment would be provided if necessary?

Absolam

Shrap wrote: »

Certainly haven't picked up on that from you (the smiley face assumes too much).

Really? Perhaps you were on hiatus at the time. Anyways, you got to know me a little better today.

Shrap wrote: »

Nobody has described acting to help someone else without gaining any benefit as mercenary, so that makes no sense whatsoever. And the unborn in this case was not going to be benefited by having its death prevented, was it? In fact, it was possibly a kindness to speed up the process.

You described the position that put Sarah there in the first place as mercenary; and the position that put her there is the Constititutional position preventing the deliberate destruction of unborn life. I don't see how that position can be described as mercenary; as I said the position only provides a benefit to those who don't die as a result.
Arguably, yes it can be considered a kindness to speed the death of any person with a terminal, possibly painful condition, and the 8th in this case was almost certainly not going to save the life of Sarahs child.

Absolam

Cabaal wrote: »

I only see Absolam's posts when quoted so hence why I normally won't respond. But the reality is keeping a fetus with a fatal abnormality "alive" is detrimental to the mother's mental well being. She knows its fetal, if she clearly wants to put an end to things early without going to term and giving birth to a fetus that will either be dead when born or dead very very shortly after birth then that is her decision. To ignore her decision and the reality of the situation ignores the women's mental health and her bodily integrity, in this day and age to simply ignore the mental well being of a person is desperate.

True; forcing a potential mother to bring a fatally abnormal/ill foetus to term seems entirely senseless.

Cabaal wrote: »

In addition, Absolam claiming you're not sure who benefits from this situation is disingenuous when you know the stresses such a situation puts on a mother. Yet you seem to get some weird kick out of looking to unnecessarily prolonging the mental anguish for a women in this situation and claiming that an abortion benefits nobody. The fetus has a fatal fetal abnormality, it will not benefit from coming to term...unless you think suffering, pain and death after coming to term is a benefit.

I guess that's where trying to reply to a post you haven't seen lets you down; I didn't say anything about not being sure who benefits from this situation. People who want to use this case to advocate for abortion in circumstances other than those described by characterising her situation as 'business as usual' certainly try to benefit from it.

As for the weird kicks you imagine I appear to get.... they're all in your head I'm afraid. How you can deliberately choose to believe without any evidence that someone gets pleasure from mental anguish, suffering, pain and death I don't know, but I'd suggest it's not me engaging in weird kicks....

Absolam

Cabaal wrote: »

More on The Times story
http://www.broadsheet.ie/2016/02/03/i-was-told-to-fake-a-miscarriage/

If it helps they ran four stories, all by the same author. The Broadsheet isn't more on the same, it is the same. By the same author.

oscarBravo

Bloody hell:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/how-abortion-opponents-secretly-bought-a-virginia-abortion-clinic/2016/02/04/08a3b1c4-c4f5-11e5-8965-0607e0e265ce_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_dvorak-1130am%3Ahomepage%2Fstory

eviltwin

oscarBravo wrote: »

Bloody hell:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/how-abortion-opponents-secretly-bought-a-virginia-abortion-clinic/2016/02/04/08a3b1c4-c4f5-11e5-8965-0607e0e265ce_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_dvorak-1130am%3Ahomepage%2Fstory

A bit like Gianna Care setting up shop beside Marie Stopes in Dublin.

The Black Oil

oscarBravo wrote: »

Bloody hell:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/how-abortion-opponents-secretly-bought-a-virginia-abortion-clinic/2016/02/04/08a3b1c4-c4f5-11e5-8965-0607e0e265ce_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_dvorak-1130am%3Ahomepage%2Fstory

“We had an 11-year-old girl come in with her parents. They thought she was pregnant,” Lohman said. “Turns out she wasn’t. But we gave them all the information.”

Did they consider reporting a sexually active 11-year-old to authorities?

“Oh no, we don’t do that. We’re not doctors, so we don’t have to,” Lohman said.

They tell women that condoms can be porous and unreliable.

They tell women they’ll have a hard time getting pregnant again after an abortion.

Nice.

aloyisious

I've found the "legal discussion" page listed in the "society and culture" section, and moved my question there. I've named the new thread as "8th amendment to the constitution".

@Absolom and Volchitsa: if you're interested in the thread, can you transfer your posts below to it please. I don't want to derail this thread any further than I did by posting the Q here. To access Society and Culture, see in TOPICS at the head of this page.