Abortion Discussion, Part Trois

Loafing Oaf

wench wrote: »

No prizes for guessing which bishop still thinks church trumps state when it comes to the law...

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/bishop-urges-professionals-to-resist-abortion-laws-37609932.html

toss of a coin...

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Bishop says anti-abortion doctors will be 'railroaded out of practice'
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/bishop-says-anti-abortion-doctors-will-be-railroaded-out-of-practice-1.3657140

Whenever I see a headline like this I ask myself: Fonzie or Kev?:P

Odhinn

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

toss of a coin...

It seems Martin has weighed in as well
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/catholics-need-not-obey-laws-contrary-to-faith-archbishop-says-1.3726400?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fsocial-affairs%2Freligion-and-beliefs%2Fcatholics-need-not-obey-laws-contrary-to-faith-archbishop-says-1.3726400


Can't see his statement though, as its behind a paywall.

aloyisious

Odhinn wrote: »

It seems Martin has weighed in as well
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/catholics-need-not-obey-laws-contrary-to-faith-archbishop-says-1.3726400?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fsocial-affairs%2Freligion-and-beliefs%2Fcatholics-need-not-obey-laws-contrary-to-faith-archbishop-says-1.3726400


Can't see his statement though, as its behind a paywall.

Interesting he's using the words NEED NOT instead of OBLIGATORY for the sake of their immortal souls, keeping himself outside the bounds of a claim of incitement to civil disobedience. Is it the Dublin Martin or the Armagh Martin being quoted?

Loafing Oaf

aloyisious wrote: »

Odhinn wrote: »

It seems Martin has weighed in as well
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/catholics-need-not-obey-laws-contrary-to-faith-archbishop-says-1.3726400?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fsocial-affairs%2Freligion-and-beliefs%2Fcatholics-need-not-obey-laws-contrary-to-faith-archbishop-says-1.3726400


Can't see his statement though, as its behind a paywall.

Interesting he's using the words NEED NOT instead of OBLIGATORY for the sake of their immortal souls, keeping himself outside the bounds of a claim of incitement to civil disobedience. Is it the Dublin Martin or the Armagh Martin being quoted?

Dublin’s dermo. Suspect he may have been goaded into saying something by Doran’s intervention

aloyisious

The master of the Coombe Hospital [one of the three Dublin maternity hospitals] was on RTE news just now and replied "yes" when asked if the minister should delay implementation of the Jan start-up date to Feb as the guidelines are not ready and [in her opinion] wont be ready in 20 days time.

Bredabe

aloyisious wrote: »

The master of the Coombe Hospital [one of the three Dublin maternity hospitals] was on RTE news just now and replied "yes" when asked if the minister should delay implementation of the Jan start-up date to Feb as the guidelines are not ready and [in her opinion] wont be ready in 20 days time.

I dont think the 1st of Jan was every really going to happen tbh, I just hope that there is the necessary care for pp's in trouble somewhere close by for the duration.

aloyisious

Bredabe wrote: »

I dont think the 1st of Jan was every really going to happen tbh, I just hope that there is the necessary care for pp's in trouble somewhere close by for the duration.

Ditto, just the date the new legislation [if/when signed by Michael D into law - quote of health minister not counting his chickens quite yet] should be effective from. The delay in the Gynae College people in getting their guidelines set up for it's members in hospitals should not have any effect on GP's ability to issue instruction and any ancillary service to patients on the use of the abortifacient pills after the legislation is in effect.

Bredabe

aloyisious wrote: »

Ditto, just the date the new legislation [if/when signed by Michael D into law - quote of health minister not counting his chickens quite yet] should be effective from. The delay in the Gynae College people in getting their guidelines set up for it's members in hospitals should not have any effect on GP's ability to issue instruction and any ancillary service to patients on the use of the abortifacient pills after the legislation is in effect.

My big concern is that pp who have to be admitted with potentially fatal(for them) conditions would be able to access a termination there.

aloyisious

Bredabe wrote: »

My big concern is that pp who have to be admitted with potentially fatal(for them) conditions would be able to access a termination there.

Get that. Fortunately I don't think there's a doctor or a nurse likely to put a pregnant woman to such a risk now after what happened to Savita. Equally so for any Oireachtas member as they know it would be like them asking for a public stoning on Kildare St.

The only people likely to object are so far within their own world that they don't give a damn as to whom they sacrifice for their personal ethical beliefs.

Hotblack Desiato

Bredabe wrote: »

My big concern is that pp who have to be admitted with potentially fatal(for them) conditions would be able to access a termination there.

POLDPA supposedly solved that problem five years ago.

PopePalpatine

B-b-b-but I thought abortion was never needed to save a woman's life? That's what I was told back then!

aloyisious

PopePalpatine wrote: »

B-b-b-but I thought abortion was never needed to save a woman's life? That's what I was told back then!

Only back then?

aloyisious

Nice one from Ronan, in the ongoing Seanad debate, continuing with the line that the public did not vote for the introduction of abortion but voted for the removal of the 8th. Slanging to and from is strong.

Speculation is that the bill may be on the way from the Oireachtas in an hour or two, hopefully for signature into law.

The Cush

Bill has passed all stages in the Seanad, off to the President now for signature into law.

Igotadose

The Cush wrote: »

Bill has passed all stages in the Seanad, off to the President now for signature into law.

A great day for Ireland. Many doubted it would ever happen, but it has!

Hotblack Desiato

aloyisious wrote: »

Nice one from Ronan, in the ongoing Seanad debate, continuing with the line that the public did not vote for the introduction of abortion but voted for the removal of the 8th.

Whereas no doubt during the campaign he would have said that voting to remove the 8th was voting for abortion on demand, therefore vote No...

gctest50

just one last time

Hotblack Desiato

NUI graduates, it's up to you to Make Ronan History

end of the road

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

NUI graduates, it's up to you to Make Ronan History

by the looks of things he seems to be representing those who voted him in very well. so i wouldn't be holding out any hope for him to be gone. everyone knows his views on various subjects and he continues to be elected so he must be doing something right.
while he continues to represent the graduates, he will likely remain for a long time to come.

Bredabe

Thinking tonight of my colleague's two unborn who were lost because of the 8th, of her poor husband who had to consent to a full hysterectomy to save her life and how now she is plunged into a peri menopausal life in her 30's.

Ronan spoke of what a great amendment it was and how many lives it saved. I hope grads know the difference between his fantasy's and the realities of women's lives.

robindch

'The Irish Catholic' opines that the Religious Sisters of Charity may not be permitted under Canon Law to provide land for the National Maternity Hospital since abortions would be offered there:

https://www.irishcatholic.com/church-property-the-mystery-of-the-nuns-and-the-maternity-hospital/

Hotblack Desiato

end of the road wrote: »

by the looks of things he seems to be representing those who voted him in very well.

Yeah, priests.

Hotblack Desiato

robindch wrote: »

'The Irish Catholic' opines that the Religious Sisters of Charity may not be permitted under Canon Law to provide land for the National Maternity Hospital since abortions would be offered there:

https://www.irishcatholic.com/church-property-the-mystery-of-the-nuns-and-the-maternity-hospital/

This is (imho) why both sides are desperately trying to fudge the issue. Theresa May has a better chance of pulling off what she's trying to do, than Simon Harris has of making this deal work properly.

Of course the Irish Catholic overlooks the fact that NMH and other maternity hospitals perform abortions now, under POLDPA. "But those abortions don't count." They fought a pitched battle to try to stop POLDPA, and it's now the defensive trench they want to return to after they got routed in the repeal the 8th campaign. I'd commented on this before, they've opposed every change since 1983 but every time another change is proposed they pretend they're totally fine with the status quo and never mention they bitterly opposed that, too.

aloyisious

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

This is (imho) why both sides are desperately trying to fudge the issue. Theresa May has a better chance of pulling off what she's trying to do, than Simon Harris has of making this deal work properly.

Of course the Irish Catholic overlooks the fact that NMH and other maternity hospitals perform abortions now, under POLDPA. "But those abortions don't count." They fought a pitched battle to try to stop POLDPA, and it's now the defensive trench they want to return to after they got routed in the repeal the 8th campaign. I'd commented on this before, they've opposed every change since 1983 but every time another change is proposed they pretend they're totally fine with the status quo and never mention they bitterly opposed that, too.

With the RC Archbishop [or his chosen delegate] in the NMH governance chair. In the light of his obligations under canon law one may assume he wasn't aware of the medical procedures in practice at the NMH.

Hotblack Desiato

In fairness to Martin he hasn't taken up his seat on the NMH board and asked the Minister a few years back to change the legislation to remove him ex-oficio from the position.

robindch

President Higgins has signed the abortion law into the statute book:

https://twitter.com/PresidentIRL/status/1075787158273908737

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/abortion-becomes-legal-in-ireland-for-first-time-after-bill-signed-by-president-1.3738504

Irish Times wrote:

A Bill that will give women access to abortion for the first time in the history of the State has been signed into law by President Michael D Higgins.

A statement released by Áras an Uachtar on Thursday evening said: “Having considered the Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Bill 2018, the President has signed the Bill and it has accordingly become law.” The Bill finished its final stage in the Seanad earlier this month after weeks of sometimes heated debate in both the D and Seanad. It follows a referendum in May on the removal of the Eighth Amendment from the Constitution, which guaranteed the unborn and mother an equal right to life. Some 67 per cent of the electorate voted to repeal the amendment.

Minister for Health Simon Harris will now have to sign a number of statutory instruments to give effect to the Bill now that it is signed into law by the President. The Bill was signed by the President as the Medical Council deleted provisions from its code which will mean that no ethical guidance on performing abortions will be in place for doctors when the legislation comes into force next month. [...]

Bredabe

Now women like me will be offered the best treatments for conditions and not what is best in case of potential pregnancy.

An_Toirpin

Bredabe wrote: »

Now women like me will be offered the best treatments for conditions and not what is best in case of potential pregnancy.

Doctors were never restricted from offering women the best possible care. No doctor was ever charged for doing so in the history in the state. The difference now is that the unborn has now zero constitutional protections.

ohnonotgmail

An_Toirpin wrote: »

Doctors were never restricted from offering women the best possible care.

Not true.

An_Toirpin wrote: »

No doctor was ever charged for doing so in the history in the state.

Irrelevant. all that means is that doctors knew what the restrictions were and obeyed them.

An_Toirpin wrote: »

The difference now is that the unborn has now zero constitutional protections.

that is correct. they still have appropriate legal protection though so all is well in the world.

Timberrrrrrrr

An_Toirpin wrote: »

Doctors were never restricted from offering women the best possible care. No doctor was ever charged for doing so in the history in the state. The difference now is that the unborn has now zero constitutional protections.

That's a lie.