Abortion Discussion, Part Trois

Sean.3516

uptherebels wrote: »

That abortion causes cancer etc.

I’m not defending them saying psusedoscientific crap like that.
I’m defending the right for them to do moral counseling with women seeking abortion.

Their only argument should be that it is wrong.

King Mob

Sean.3516 wrote: »

I’m not defending them saying psusedoscientific crap like that.
I’m defending the right for them to do moral counseling with women seeking abortion.

Their only argument should be that it is wrong.

And you think that after lying about themselves being an impartial service, they'll be perfectly honest and unbiased about the information they provide in deference to the behavior of pretty much every single pro life group?

Are you honestly that naive? Or do your expect us to be that naive?

SusieBlue

Sean.3516 wrote: »

I’m not defending them saying psusedoscientific crap like that.
I’m defending the right for them to do moral counseling with women seeking abortion.

Their only argument should be that it is wrong.

But whether it is wrong or not is a matter of opinion, and the woman should know which side of the fence the counselors fall on before taking any advice.

I too defend their right to do moral counseling, but only on women who CONSENT to be counseled from a pro-life point of view.

You are putting the counseling services right to spread their message above the woman’s right to know what she’s signing herself up to hear.
That’s disgusting.

There is no reasonable excuse for them not to disclose, absolutely none.

King Mob

SusieBlue wrote: »

There is no reasonable excuse for them not to disclose, absolutely none.

His argument seems to be:
"If they did, then they would get less people to come to them."

He doesn't see the problem with that.

Sean.3516

King Mob wrote: »

And you think that after lying about themselves being an impartial service, they'll be perfectly honest and unbiased about the information they provide in deference to the behavior of pretty much every single pro life group?

Are you honestly that naive? Or do your expect us to be that naive?

Jayzus, ye lads are hard to get through to.

So if I see a sign that reads “Unplanned Pregnancy Counselling Service”

The only thing I can infer from this sign is that this is a service that counsels people in unplanned pregnancies.

There is no way for me to tell anything about the ethos of the centre, it’s biases, whether it’s impartial or not, what services it endorses, nothing. I would have to go in and talk to people to get this info and they could get this info if they came in and asked presumably

At this point, the purpose of not advertising the centers bias has been fulfilled. The point is to at least start the conversation. The ppl inside would try to convince her abortion is wrong and she thinks it’s full of crap she can f right off and get one.

Do you understand this? It’s not dishonesty. When I did my ty minicompany I had a little stand down at the Christmas market where I sold calendars. I didn’t put price tags on anything I was selling. The purpose of this is that people interested in buying would ask me how much they were and then I’d have the opportunity to start a conversation with them and work my sale pitch suave on them. If I put a price tag on them saying calendars €15 most ppl would have just moved on and not bothered with them. By starting a conversation I told them all about how they were made and how they are perpetual and can be used for any year and why they are worth €15.

It’s not dishonesty. It’s witholding information initially so the information can be released on your own terms to maximize the chance you can sell someone.

King Mob

Sean.3516 wrote: »

Jayzus, ye lads are hard to get through to.

So if I see a sign that reads “Unplanned Pregnancy Counselling Service”

But that's not what's happening. It's not just a sign.
You are not being disingenuous to excuse disgusting behavior and your ridiculous attempts to defend it.

Sean.3516 wrote: »

It’s not dishonesty. It’s witholding information initially so the information can be released on your own terms to maximize the chance you can sell someone.

No, that is dishonesty. It's deception.

The honest thing to do would be to be up front.
If you get less people because you are being up front, maybe there's a reason for that.

Your TY company's policies in selling calendars doesn't really apply to a pro life group trying to trick pregnant women into their counseling.
If you don't see why that is, then we're wasting time with you.

Sean.3516

SusieBlue wrote: »

But whether it is wrong or not is a matter of opinion, and the woman should know which side of the fence the counselors fall on before taking any advice.

I too defend their right to do moral counseling, but only on women who CONSENT to be counseled from a pro-life point of view.

You are putting the counseling services right to spread their message above the woman’s right to know what she’s signing herself up to hear.
That’s disgusting.

There is no reasonable excuse for them not to disclose, absolutely none.

Surely she’d know what side the counselors on when she hears the advice?

And she’s free to leave the place at that point.

And she’s free to completely ignore the advice.

Exactly what right does she have that’s being violated.

I think your point that she has the right to know what type of advice she he’s going to hear before she’s heard it at which point she knows what she’s going to hear and is in fact hearing it is a bunch of hooey and something you just came up with to move the goal posts.

I mean, how can you have a right to know what your signing up to hear before you’ve heard it. It’s a silly right. In order to guarantee it, you have to violate it. We both know your fibbing.

King Mob

Sean.3516 wrote: »

Surely she’d know what side the counselors on when she hears the advice?

And she’s free to leave the place at that point.

And she’s free to completely ignore the advice.

Exactly what right does she have that’s being violated.

I think your point that she has the right to know what type of advice she he’s going to hear before she’s heard it at which point she knows what she’s going to hear and is in fact hearing it is a bunch of hooey and something you just came up with to move the goal posts.

I mean, how can you have a right to know what your signing up to hear before you’ve heard it. It’s a silly right. In order to guarantee it, you have to violate it. We both know your fibbing.

Again, why would them being up front about their bias and goals result in less people coming to them?

Hotblack Desiato

Sean.3516 wrote: »

For there to be a case, they would have had to deliberately misinformed her that she couldn’t have an abortion or that there would be some fictitious health complication if she did.

Exactly that is just one of the things they do.

Sean.3516

King Mob wrote: »

But that's not what's happening. It's not just a sign.
You are not being disingenuous to excuse disgusting behavior and your ridiculous attempts to defend it.


No, that is dishonesty. It's deception.

The honest thing to do would be to be up front.
If you get less people because you are being up front, maybe there's a reason for that.

Your TY company's policies in selling calendars doesn't really apply to a pro life group trying to trick pregnant women into their counseling.
If you don't see why that is, then we're wasting time with you.

I agree with you that it is deception. But it isn’t dishonesty.

Dishonesty is deliberately telling a falsehood. Nowhere would this happen in the model I described to you.

But yes. It is deceptive. Sure I agree. It’s decpetive. Haleluia we have an agreement. It is DECEPTIVE.

And it’s the most harmless type of deceptive imaginable. Because the deception does not commit anyone to taking any course of action they would not want to take had they been aware of the deception. All this deception does is expose them to a viewpoint they may not have considered.

And your ridiculous assertion that they have the right to be insulated against anything that may not tell them what they want to hear, refuse to confirm their biases or doesn’t give them all the information they want is stupid. Nobody has that right. It’s a fictitious right up made up.

I’ll literally own the deception at this point because A. It does no harm
B. It justifies itself

Sean.3516

King Mob wrote: »

Again, why would them being up front about their bias and goals result in less people coming to them?

Because the majority of women are inclined to think abortion is ok, and would be inclined to steer away from a pro life clinic. Why do you think?

Hotblack Desiato

Sean.3516 wrote: »

When I did my ty minicompany I had a little stand down at the Christmas market where I sold calendars. I didn’t put price tags on anything I was selling.

That's breaking the law, too.

Sean.3516

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Exactly that is just one of the things they do.

And if they did they’d be wrong to do that and I’d have no problem condemning them for it.

King Mob

Sean.3516 wrote: »

I agree with you that it is deception. But it isn’t dishonesty.

Deception is dishonesty.

FFS. The gymnastics you guys tie yourselves up in...

It can do harm.
It is not justifiable and it makes your side look even more like vultures.

Sean.3516

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

That's breaking the law, too.

Some laws are made to be broken pal

Sean.3516

King Mob wrote: »

Deception is dishonesty.

FFS. The gymnastics you guys tie yourselves up in...

It can do harm.
It is not justifiable and it makes your side look even more like vultures.

Explain to me how it does harm?

Hotblack Desiato

So you openly admit to carrying out dishonest and illegal actions. Why should anyone listen to you on a question of 'morals'?

King Mob

Sean.3516 wrote: »

Because the majority of women are inclined to think abortion is ok, and would be inclined to steer away from a pro life clinic. Why do you think?

Same reason.
Cept with the tweak that the majority of people think abortion is "ok".

Seems to me that people prefer counselling services that put their health before the bias and ulterior motives of the service.
Weird...

King Mob

Sean.3516 wrote: »

Explain to me how it does harm?

Delays people from getting the services they need and want.
Tricks people from their time and possibly money.
Could delay people long enough from an abortion that they need.
Exposes people to further deceptions from an already deceptive group of people.

You are not doing a good job justifying their dishonesty.

Sean.3516

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

So you openly admit to carrying out dishonest and illegal actions. Why should anyone listen to you on a question of 'morals'?

First of All . Just cos somethings legal doesn’t make it moral, unless you think the holocaust was moral.

Second of all. Nobody gives a flying crap about stupid regs about price tags. Jesus.

Sean.3516

King Mob wrote: »

Delays people from getting the services they need and want.
Tricks people from their time and possibly money.
Could delay people long enough from an abortion that they need.
Exposes people to further deceptions from an already deceptive group of people.

You are not doing a good job justifying their dishonesty.

1. It doesn’t delay them through misinformation. Moral counseling focuses on the morality of the procedure, not the terms under which the abortion is available.

2. Tricks them? Tricks them?

3. Whether they need it or not, is besides the point unless there’s a threat to life. It’s an optional procedure.

4. Just a repeat of the first one

5. No that’s not an argument.

King Mob

Sean.3516 wrote: »

1. It doesn’t delay them through misinformation. Moral counseling focuses on the morality of the procedure, not the terms under which the abortion is available.

Again, not sure why people would want moral lecturing from deceptive people.
Not sure why you think you can pretend to have the moral high ground when you are yourself deceptive, dishonest and justifying this crap.

And yea, these scumbags will use misinformation.
Your side always does.

end of the road

uptherebels wrote: »

Not for long

assuming you mean the exclusion zones, that won't stop them. they don't seem to have anywhere else they exist at least.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

I'm a man. I have an opinion. I don't shout it into people's faces, or tell them lies about how they're going to get a horrible disease (and DESERVE to) and what a horrible nasty person they are




Restricting the flow of lies and intimidation is what we're talking about here though.

it's actually not though. what you are talking about is restricting information you believe to be lies because it doesn't back your opinion.

SusieBlue wrote: »

Yet the pro-life gang still objected to POLDPA, the very thing that only very recently gave us the power to save women whose lives were in danger(albeit in very limited, unclear circumstances), pre the successful repeal of the 8th amendment.

Go figure. Mustn’t be all that mainstream.

the campaign groups may have but individuals certainly didn't. POLDPA was absolutely the workable solution for abortion. provide where needed.

volchitsa wrote: »

Not if she didn't know they were prolife and weren't acting in her interests but because they had their own agenda. Let's say you have a foreign woman who doesn't speak perfect English and, importantly, doesn't know that Irish free speech extends to counselling services lying about what their real agenda is.

Naively, this woman imagines that she's being given reliable information. By the time she discovers otherwise, it's past 12 weeks. Why won't she be entitled to sue?

because she would have had plenty of other availible options to research the information. limited english wouldn't be a problem for google as google translate can do a good job of translating from english to her native language.

King Mob

End of the road,
Stop avoiding my question.

You keep insisting and implying that a majority of people don't support abortion.
Back that up.

gctest50

Sean.3516 wrote: »

Jayzus, ye lads are hard to get through to.

So if I see a sign that reads “Unplanned Pregnancy Counselling Service”

The only thing I can infer from this sign is that this is a service that counsels people in unplanned pregnancies.

There is no way for me to tell anything about the ethos of the centre, it’s biases, whether it’s impartial or not, what services it endorses, nothing. I would have to go in and talk to people to get this info and they could get this info if they came in and asked presumably

At this point, the purpose of not advertising the centers bias has been fulfilled. The point is to at least start the conversation. The ppl inside would try to convince her abortion is wrong and she thinks it’s full of crap she can f right off and get one.

Do you understand this? It’s not dishonesty. When I did my ty minicompany I had a little stand down at the Christmas market where I sold calendars. I didn’t put price tags on anything I was selling. The purpose of this is that people interested in buying would ask me how much they were and then I’d have the opportunity to start a conversation with them and work my sale pitch suave on them. If I put a price tag on them saying calendars €15 most ppl would have just moved on and not bothered with them. By starting a conversation I told them all about how they were made and how they are perpetual and can be used for any year and why they are worth €15.

It’s not dishonesty. It’s witholding information initially so the information can be released on your own terms to maximize the chance you can sell someone.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

So you openly admit to carrying out dishonest and illegal actions. Why should anyone listen to you on a question of 'morals'?

Sean.3516 wrote: »

Some laws are made to be broken pal

Sean.3516 wrote: »

........

Second of all. Nobody gives a flying crap about stupid regs about price tags. Jesus.

Sean.3516 wrote: »

........

Second of all. Nobody gives a flying crap about stupid regs about price tags. Jesus.

Lies

A Co Waterford garage owner has been fined €8,250 for failing to display prices.

Thomas Farrell and Sons (Garages) Ltd was convicted on 39 counts of failing to display prices on grocery items at its stores at Tramore and Pickardstown service stations

Competition and Consumer Protection Commission (CCPC) has statutory powers of enforcement and can take action against businesses for breaches of consumer law, including misleading pricing and failure to display pricing. If consumers notice any breaches or examples of unfair or misleading practices by businesses, they can report the issue to the CCPC.

jeonahr

end of the road wrote: »

because she would have had plenty of other availible options to research the information. limited english wouldn't be a problem for google as google translate can do a good job of translating from english to her native language.

I’m guessing you’ve never used google translate before :rolleyes:

end of the road

King Mob wrote: »

Again, not sure why people would want moral lecturing from deceptive people.
Not sure why you think you can pretend to have the moral high ground when you are yourself deceptive, dishonest and justifying this crap.

And yea, these scumbags will use misinformation.
Your side always does.

the odd individual or even group may do so but as a whole, no i don't believe that is true.

jeonahr wrote: »

I’m guessing you’ve never used google translate before

i actually have. there are probably better translators out there but i find it works.

King Mob

end of the road wrote: »

the odd individual or even group may do so but as a whole, no i don't believe that is true.

Sorry, you are addressing a post that was not to you.

You are avoiding another point. Address that first.
I have no intention of letting you deflect so you can continue with your dishonest tactics.

You yourself use misinformation when you pretend and insist that the majority of people don't want abortion to be legal. This is among many other lies you[ve been caught out on, including about your own position.
Don't be a hypocrite, you have no leg to stand on in the honest department.

Timberrrrrrrr

King Mob wrote: »

End of the road,
Stop avoiding my question.

You keep insisting and implying that a majority of people don't support abortion.
Back that up.

Seriously? :pac:

King Mob

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Seriously? :pac:

Yup pretty much.
I'm sure he'll whine about the hairs he's splitting, but I'm done giving these guys any benefit of doubt.

He rejects the reality that most people in ireland support the legalisation of abortion and claims that many (no number given) yes voters were in fact anti choice, but actually voted yes to get rid of the 8th.
He has said "his side didn't lose."

He claims this when ever someone points to the fact his side is a smaller minority than those that voted against divorce and gay marriage. He does this because he can't deal with the likelyhood that he and his ilk are very soon to be as irrelevant, pitied and mocked as those other groups.