Abortion Discussion, Part Trois

splinter65

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

And i would be happy to see them in jail. Some time in mountjoy might diminish their desire for protest.

You don’t think at all that peaceful protestors languishing in jail at the behest of Amnesty International would reflect badly on Ireland? It doesn’t happen anywhere else in the world. 46 years pro life are peacefully protesting abortion clinics in the US.
You won the referendum. It was an unqualified success. You got what you wanted. Why are you still so angry?

Timberrrrrrrr

end of the road wrote: »

my view would be that those who see a pregnancy out of rape as a second rape ultimately need to revaluate their view and i'd think legally, and certainly factually, they are incorrect. rape is rape, a disgusting act and crime which should see those who carry it out receive the full force of the law, however a pregnancy is not rape.



i'm sure. i presume though it's only protesters you disagree with that you would be happy to see in jail.



i'd doubt it somehow.

And it's only protestors you disagree with (men, women, children) that you would be
happy to see baton charged by riot police as you once called for on these forums?

King Mob

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Don't even know why we bother with that poster anymore, given free reign by mods to soapbox, lie, and make any claim they want without any consequence. Best way to stop it now is just ignore it.

Best thing to do is to continue to point out their dishonest and cowardly tactics.

splinter65

King Mob wrote: »

More just ones who go out of their way to harass and intimidate women, some of whom are vulnerable.

We also asked you to explain why you and your buddies needed to protest outside these places in particular if your tactics weren't to harass and intimidate.

You provided no answer and ran away.

People standing silently holding placards is harassing and intimidating? It’s acceptable everywhere else in the civilized world.
But Ok. What do you consider peaceful protest? What kind of peaceful protest is acceptable to you.

King Mob

splinter65 wrote: »

Why are you still so angry?

Because we have people saying things like:
"Being against abortion is actually pro women."
Or
"Women don't have a right to be not restrained."

Timberrrrrrrr

King Mob wrote: »

Best thing to do is to continue to point out their dishonest and cowardly tactics.

That one poster has been doing this for years though and for some strange reason is allowed to continue to do so and indeed has even been defended/protected by mods.

I honestly hate to see the name pop up in threads because you know that the discussion will fly downhill as soon as he/she starts the soapboxing.

King Mob

splinter65 wrote: »

People standing silently holding placards is harassing and intimidating? It’s acceptable everywhere else in the civilized world.
But Ok. What do you consider peaceful protest? What kind of peaceful protest is acceptable to you.

So why do they need to do that in front of abortion clinics or Gps?

Why not at government offices or other high visibility areas?

Is it because they want to deter people from going to those places to seek abortions?
If so, how do they achieve this if not via harassment and intimidation?
If not, what is their goal for protesting in those places?

These questions were all asked before and were left unanswered.

And this is assuming that the anti-abortion crowd would be "silently holding placards" and wouldn't do anything untoward.
This would be incredibly naive to assume in real life.

end of the road

King Mob wrote: »

More just ones who go out of their way to harass and intimidate women, some of whom are vulnerable.

We also asked you to explain why you and your buddies needed to protest outside these places in particular if your tactics weren't to harass and intimidate.

You provided no answer and ran away.

intimidation and harassment can already be dealt with by the gardai. if it's happening, report it and the gardai will investigate. if they are not investigating then it's because such crimes are not taking place at the protests. i'm not involved in the protests myself actually. those who are involved in the protests, are protesting because they disagree with AOD.
so, i maintain my view that it is out of simple disagreement with, and a wish to try and silence those protesters and their views, that you want them jailed. sadly for those of that viewpoint, no amount of jailing or all else will silence pro-life.

Odhinn

splinter65 wrote: »

You (/.................) angry?

[QUOTE/=splinter65;109122846].........putting even more pressure on young adults to compromise their self esteem and self respect by making sure that they’re “intercourse ready” with baskets of condoms positioned carefully all over the place."[/QUOTE]
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=109005433&postcount=8701

Would you care to explain the above?

King Mob

end of the road wrote: »

intimidation and harassment can already be dealt with by the gardai.

And again you dodge my questions.

We also asked you to explain why you and your buddies needed to protest outside these places in particular if your tactics weren't to harass and intimidate.

Try again, this time addressing the content of my post and then also going back and addressing the many other points you ran away from.
Or, you can just say that you don't intend on addressing them and explain why.

Or alternatively, don't quote my posts if you don't want it pointed out that you are dodging and ignoring what you can't address.

Odhinn

end of the road wrote: »

my view would be that those who see a pregnancy out of rape as a second rape ultimately need to revaluate their view and i'd think legally, and certainly factually, they are incorrect. rape is rape, a disgusting act and crime which should see those who carry it out receive the full force of the law, however a pregnancy is not rape.

So the woman lying there pregnant out of no choice of her own and unable to terminate the pregnancy through no choice of her own feels no sense of violation?

robindch

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Don't even know why we bother with that poster anymore, given free reign by mods to soapbox, lie, and make any claim they want without any consequence. Best way to stop it now is just ignore it.

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

I honestly hate to see the name pop up in threads because you know that the discussion will fly downhill as soon as he/she starts the soapboxing.

a) whether or not a poster is soapboxing is a decision made by the forum moderator - see the second-last paragraph here. See also the comments about lying. b) if you do not wish to read another poster's posts, then you can use boards' 'ignore' feature - just left-click on the user's name in the regular forum view, then select 'Add xxx to your ignore list' and the selected posters posts will be not be shown to you any more.

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

That one poster has been doing this for years though and for some strange reason is allowed to continue to do so and indeed has even been defended/protected by mods.

So long as posters post within the general terms of the forum charter, they can post as they wish, regardless of whether or not they support any particular political or other point of view. Recent charter changes were introduced to help reduce the number of unsubstantiated claims and we've had two instances of these rules being applied. No doubt further claims will be made and so long as the number of adjudication requests is kept at a reasonable level, any evidence, or lack thereof, will be adjudicated upon by your friendly mod team.

end of the road

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

And it's only protestors you disagree with (men, women, children) that you would be
happy to see baton charged by riot police as you once called for on these forums?

once called for. no longer call for. therefore this point is even more irrelevant then it already is given it has nothing to do with the discussion.

King Mob wrote: »

So why do they need to do that in front of abortion clinics or Gps?

Why not at government offices or other high visibility areas?

Is it because they want to deter people from going to those places to seek abortions?
If so, how do they achieve this if not via harassment and intimidation?
If not, what is their goal for protesting in those places?

These questions were all asked before and were left unanswered.

And this is assuming that the anti-abortion crowd would be "silently holding placards" and wouldn't do anything untoward.
This would be incredibly naive to assume in real life.

it's no different to animal rights activists protesting outside a meat processing plant. people who disagree with an act and who wish to protest it will often protest outside the building that is involved in a particular thing they disagree with as well as protesting outside government buildings. that's the nature of the game. of course they wish to show people that there are other ways then abortion and wish to convince them not to have an abortion. nothing wrong with that. if there is any intimidation then it's the abortion industry they wish to intimidate,. such an industry i have no sympathy for what soever as i believe they are way to powerful.

end of the road

Odhinn wrote: »

So the woman lying there pregnant out of no choice of her own and unable to terminate the pregnancy through no choice of her own feels no sense of violation?

well yes of course she may do. however that doesn't change the fact that pregnancy in itself is not rape. the rape that caused the pregnancy is rape and as i said the person responsible should face the full force of the law.

splinter65

Odhinn wrote: »

[QUOTE/=splinter65;109122846].........putting even more pressure on young adults to compromise their self esteem and self respect by making sure that they’re “intercourse ready” with baskets of condoms positioned carefully all over the place."

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=109005433&postcount=8701

Would you care to explain the above?[/quote]

I didn’t think it was allowed on the Ts and Cs to drag one thread into another but I will if you’ll take full responsibilty . It’s not rocket science really. If you wind up back at some party and your getting hot and heavy with a guy/girl and your not too sure if you want to have full intercourse.... well, you should really because everyone knows that everyone is doing it all the time, aren’t the condoms free and everyone takes them and he/she has them in her/his handbag jacket so he/she was expecting to have sex and I don’t want to be a tease and get a name for being frigid so I might as well I hope he/she doesn’t spread it all around.....

King Mob

end of the road wrote: »

it's no different to animal rights activists protesting outside a meat processing plant. people who disagree with an act and who wish to protest it will often protest outside the building that is involved in a particular thing they disagree with as well as protesting outside government buildings. that's the nature of the game.

Why do they wish to do so?
You haven't answered the question at all.

end of the road wrote: »

of course they wish to show people that there are other ways then abortion and wish to convince them not to have an abortion. nothing wrong with that.

Yea, there is. You know there is. You know it's shady and disgusting to try and influence people in vunerable moments. Especially people you don't know and have no business with.

end of the road wrote: »

if there is any intimidation then it's the abortion industry they wish to intimidate,. such an industry i have no sympathy for what soever as i believe they are way to powerful.

But there is intimidation. Even if we exclude the very obvious intimidation that does happen at abortion clinics.

If a person comes to a place like that and sees a large group of people protesting and staring at them, do you think that might be a little bit intimidating?
This is the real goal of these ghouls and you know it.

Now, please go back and address the many other points you've been dodging and running away from.
It's very very underhanded and dishonest of you to cut my requests out of the posts when you quote them.

robindch

end of the road wrote: »

it's no different to animal rights activists protesting outside a meat processing plant.

Your comparison is both inappropriate and wildly inaccurate.

Animals do comprehend what protesters hanging around a clinic or hospital might shouting or placarding and - I can't believe this has to be pointed out - a clinic is not a "meat processing plant" unless you happen to believe that "healthcare" is "processing" and humans are "meat".

Odhinn

splinter65 wrote: »

I didn’t think it was allowed on the Ts and Cs to drag one thread into another but I will if you’ll take full responsibilty .

We're on the same thread.

splinter65 wrote: »

It’s not rocket (................) it all around.....

You explicitly stated that to engage in sex causes persons to "compromise their self esteem and self respect". Why?

Odhinn

end of the road wrote: »

well yes of course she may do. however that doesn't change the fact that pregnancy in itself is not rape. the rape that caused the pregnancy is rape and as i said the person responsible should face the full force of the law.

Forced pregnancy is a violation however, like rape in that the pregnant woman has her bodily autonomy taken away against her will.

ohnonotgmail

end of the road wrote: »

i'm sure. i presume though it's only protesters you disagree with that you would be happy to see in jail.



i'd doubt it somehow.

Anybody who attempts to intimidate somebody going for a legal medical procedure should be subject to legal censure. Whether sending them to prison will make them stop i cant say but it is a chance i am willing to take.

splinter65

King Mob wrote: »

So why do they need to do that in front of abortion clinics or Gps?

Why not at government offices or other high visibility areas?

Is it because they want to deter people from going to those places to seek abortions?
If so, how do they achieve this if not via harassment and intimidation?
If not, what is their goal for protesting in those places?

These questions were all asked before and were left unanswered.

And this is assuming that the anti-abortion crowd would be "silently holding placards" and wouldn't do anything untoward.
This would be incredibly naive to assume in real life.

Abortionists don’t work in government offices though . All over the world pro life people protest at abortion facilities and the objective is to bring about a change in heart through offering an alternative to the choice the women have made. I’d be interested in which slogans on the placards in the pictures you see you find threatening intimidating and harassing and what else you imagine they’re going to do.

ohnonotgmail

splinter65 wrote: »

Abortionists don’t work in government offices though . All over the world pro life people protest at abortion facilities and the objective is to bring about a change in heart through offering an alternative to the choice the women have made. I’d be interested in which slogans on the placards in the pictures you see you find threatening intimidating and harassing.

The objective is to shame or intimidate women going for a legal medical procedure.

Ash.J.Williams

robindch wrote: »

Your comparison is both inappropriate and wildly inaccurate.

Animals do comprehend what protesters hanging around a clinic or hospital might shouting or placarding and - I can't believe this has to be pointed out - a clinic is not a "meat processing plant" unless you happen to believe that "healthcare" is "processing" and humans are "meat".

Humans are meat

nozzferrahhtoo

An_Toirpin wrote: »

Abortion strips some of rights.

Who's exactly? Because if you mean the group I think you mean, you and your cohort on this thread have failed even when asked explicitly and directly to come up with a single argument as to why they should have rights in the first place.

Hard to "strip" away something that is not, and should not, even be there.

King Mob wrote: »

You provided no answer and ran away.

And I am still waiting for him to back up the claim I asked him to back up MULTIPLE times in the past year. Specifically the claim that something not sentient has the right to become sentient.

When I ask him to back up that claim with actual reasoning and argument the pattern every time goes as follows:

1) I remind him I asked for back up for the claim.
2) He claims he already did this.
3) I ask for a link to this as I can not find it.
4) He ignores me entirely, no response, simply runs away.

It is like clock work at this stage.

splinter65 wrote: »

All over the world pro life people protest at abortion facilities

Have any of them come up with a single ethical argument against the termination of a 12 week old fetus yet then? Because sure as hell no one on THIS forum has yet.

King Mob

splinter65 wrote: »

Abortionists don’t work in government offices though .

No, but the ministers who write the legislation do.
The people who voted overwhelmingly against you guys are more likely to see the protest on the high street.

Surely they are the more important ones to change the minds of.

splinter65 wrote: »

All over the world pro life people protest at abortion facilities and the objective is to bring about a change in heart through offering an alternative to the choice the women have made.

So the targets here aren't to raise awareness or protest, but to influence the people going to the place.

I’d be interested in which slogans on the placards in the pictures you see you find threatening intimidating and harassing.

Well, if the protesters continue the tactics usually displayed by the antiabortion crowds in Ireland in particular, I would consider gory pictures of what they claim is abortion aftermath would be intimidating.
However, that's not what I believe is the intimidating or harassing part.

splinter65

Odhinn wrote: »

We're on the same thread.






You explicitly stated that to engage in sex causes persons to "compromise their self esteem and self respect". Why?

Well I’ve just described a scenario which I would hate to find myself in, not really wanting to have intercourse with this guy/girl or anyone really but clearly it’s normal and expected so I don’t want to be different from everyone else, if you can’t see how situations like that can dint your self esteem and self respect then I can’t help you.

King Mob

splinter65 wrote: »

Well I’ve just described a scenario which I would hate to find myself in, not really wanting to have intercourse with this guy/girl or anyone really but clearly it’s normal and expected so I don’t want to be different from everyone else, if you can’t see how situations like that can dint your self esteem and self respect then I can’t help you.

Do you have any evidence to show that legalising abortion results in higher rates of this scenario happening?

gctest50

splinter65 wrote: »

Well I’ve just described a scenario which I would hate to find myself in, not really wanting to have intercourse with this guy/girl or anyone really but clearly it’s normal and expected so I don’t want to be different from everyone else, if you can’t see how situations like that can dint your self esteem and self respect then I can’t help you.

splinter65 wrote: »

.....

but clearly it’s normal and expected so I don’t want to be different from everyone else

Teaching yer kids to deal with any situation like that is normal parent stuff
( and one of the best things you can do - it ties in well with the " have you a few peer-reviews sources for yer claims about the magic oils you are selling" later on )

robindch

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

Humans are meat

I believe you'll find that the bony bits aren't.

end of the road

King Mob wrote: »

Why do they wish to do so?
You haven't answered the question at all.

because they disagree with the act, and protesting out whatever is involved in the commital of that act is the best way to hi-light it. of course you could always go and ask protesters yourself.

King Mob wrote: »

Yea, there is. You know there is. You know it's shady and disgusting to try and influence people in vunerable moments. Especially people you don't know and have no business with.

nothing wrong with telling people that there are other ways and that there are supports availible for them. nothing shady about that, just people who actually care unlike the abortion industry who i would agree fit your sentence.

King Mob wrote: »

But there is intimidation. Even if we exclude the very obvious intimidation that does happen at abortion clinics.

there really isn't. if there was, the police in the relevant area would be all over it. they aren't because it ultimately doesn't happen.

King Mob wrote: »

If a person comes to a place like that and sees a large group of people protesting and staring at them, do you think that might be a little bit intimidating?
This is the real goal of these ghouls and you know it.

ultimately it doesn't matter as we can't base things on people's feelings but actual facts. some people find large groups intimidating. some people find tall people intimidating. we don't go around banning things because an indididual might find them intimidating as it's just not viable to cater to every single individuals beliefs.