Abortion Discussion, Part Trois

robdonn

100cent wrote: »

Where is that in the Statute Books?

It's in the constitution.

You have a right not to have your body or person interfered with. This means that the State may not do anything to harm your life or health.

Citizens Information

Yet this right apparently disappears when a woman becomes pregnant. The state interferes with a woman's right to protect her health by ending a pregnancy.

Imagine this - A person is dying and the only thing that can possibly save them is a kidney transplant. Through the mad fate of the universe, you and you alone are the only possible compatible donor.

I have no doubt that you would do what is necessary to save the person's life, but what if you decided not to? Do you have that choice? Yes you do.

Could you be forced to give up the organ? Could they tie you down and forcibly use your body for another's benefit? No.

That is because you are protected by your right to bodily autonomy, nobody can interfere with your body, even to save the life of another person.

aloyisious

100cent wrote: »

I have no idea.

I am very content with our legislation as it currently stands.

That look's remarkably like "the Irish answer to an Irish problem".

100cent

robdonn wrote: »

It's in the constitution.



Yet this right apparently disappears when a woman becomes pregnant. The state interferes with a woman's right to protect her health by ending a pregnancy.

Imagine this - A person is dying and the only thing that can possibly save them is a kidney transplant. Through the mad fate of the universe, you and you alone are the only possible compatible donor.

I have no doubt that you would do what is necessary to save the person's life, but what if you decided not to? Do you have that choice? Yes you do.

Could you be forced to give up the organ? Could they tie you down and forcibly use your body for another's benefit? No.

That is because you are protected by your right to bodily autonomy, nobody can interfere with your body, even to save the life of another person.

With pregnancy there is a second human life involved and no intentional harm should be done to either mother or baby.

100cent

aloyisious wrote: »

That look's remarkably like "the Irish answer to an Irish problem".

It does alright.

robdonn

100cent wrote: »

With pregnancy there is a second human life involved and no intentional harm should be done to either mother or baby.

But the foetus does not have the right to not be harmed, the woman does though.

100cent

robdonn wrote: »

But the foetus does not have the right to not be harmed, the woman does though.

Maybe you should go back to our Constitution you just quoted. Article 40.3.3.

lazygal

100cent wrote: »

Why do you continue to fish?

If your question is genuine, google it and you ill learn quite a lot.

I did Google it. I looked for "perinatal hospices Ireland" and no reference as to where they are located came up. The main reference was to groups opposed to abortion calling for perinatal hospices to be established in Ireland, not clues as to their location in Ireland.

100cent

lazygal wrote: »

I did Google it. I looked for "perinatal hospices Ireland" and no reference as to where they are located came up. The main reference was to groups opposed to abortion calling for perinatal hospices to be established in Ireland, not clues as to their location in Ireland.

Keep fishing.

All I'll say is I've witnessed wonderfully humane perinatal care in an Irish maternity hospital.

robdonn

100cent wrote: »

Maybe you should go back to our Constitution you just quoted. Article 40.3.3.

The constitution grants one right and only one right to the foetus, the right to life. Not bodily integrity. You can harm a foetus under the full protection of the law.

A pregnant woman can smoke, causing all sorts of harm to the foetus, but she is protected by her right to bodily integrity. Same applies to drinking alcohol. If the foetus was protected from harm by law then she would not be allowed do either of these things.

robdonn

lazygal wrote: »

I did Google it. I looked for "perinatal hospices Ireland" and no reference as to where they are located came up. The main reference was to groups opposed to abortion calling for perinatal hospices to be established in Ireland, not clues as to their location in Ireland.

Holles Street

100cent

robdonn wrote: »

The constitution grants one right and only one right to the foetus, the right to life. Not bodily integrity. You can harm a foetus under the full protection of the law.

A pregnant woman can smoke, causing all sorts of harm to the foetus, but she is protected by her right to bodily integrity. Same applies to drinking alcohol. If the foetus was protected from harm by law then she would not be allowed do either of these things.

Their right to life is equal.

People smoke in their homes in front of their children.

eviltwin

100cent wrote: »

Keep fishing.

All I'll say is I've witnessed wonderfully humane perinatal care in an Irish maternity hospital.

Why are you so cagey about it? It's not personal information we are after.

eviltwin

robdonn wrote: »

Holles Street

That's not a hospice, it's a mental health service

100cent

eviltwin wrote: »

Why are you so cagey about it? It's not personal information we are after.

Thats all you're getting. Now will you continue to troll or will you respect my decision?

eviltwin

100cent wrote: »

Thats all you're getting. Now will you continue to troll or will you respect my decision?

You have some nerve calling me a troll . If you won't back up what you say prepare to be called out on your bs

lazygal

robdonn wrote: »

Holles Street

That's not a perinatal hospice. That's the mental health services available to pregnant women generally. I saw no perinatal hospice information in Holles St when I had various things there.

lazygal

100cent wrote: »

Keep fishing.

All I'll say is I've witnessed wonderfully humane perinatal care in an Irish maternity hospital.

Perinatal is just care before birth. What perinatal hospice care did you receive? And where?

robdonn

100cent wrote: »

Their right to life is equal.

People smoke in their homes in front of their children.

Their right to life is not equal. If a pregnancy is a threat to a woman's life, the life of the foetus is ended.

People can't smoke in cars with children in it. The law changed to protect them. And smoking does much more harm to a foetus, a kid isn't going to suddenly drop dead from a couple of weeks of secondhand smoke.

Kiwi in IE

100cent wrote: »

It is when a crime is being committed and an innocent baby is being harmed.

So you are ok with women travelling to other countries to have an abortion where no crime is being committed?

Cabaal

100cent wrote: »

Their right to life is equal.

People smoke in their homes in front of their children.

Except its not,
If a mothers tries to give a baby drink she'll be done for it and in serious trouble,

If a pregnant women takes drink while pregnant, she can do so. she can drink herself silly doing untold harm to the fetus.

The fetus life is not equal to that of a baby's, ours laws even support this. To claim otherwise is ignoring the reality of life

100cent

eviltwin wrote: »

You have some nerve calling me a troll . If you won't back up what you say prepare to be called out on your bs

A little sensitivity goes a long way sometimes.

100cent

lazygal wrote: »

Perinatal is just care before birth. What perinatal hospice care did you receive? And where?

I'm not repeating myself to trolling.

100cent

robdonn wrote: »

Their right to life is not equal. If a pregnancy is a threat to a woman's life, the life of the foetus is ended.

People can't smoke in cars with children in it. The law changed to protect them. And smoking does much more harm to a foetus, a kid isn't going to suddenly drop dead from a couple of weeks of secondhand smoke.

The right to life is equal.

Where there is a threat to the mother's life a termination is permissable, even if an unintended consequence is the sad death of the baby.

100cent

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

So you are ok with women travelling to other countries to have an abortion where no crime is being committed?

Its tragic, but no crime is being committed.

100cent

Cabaal wrote: »

Except its not,
If a mothers tries to give a baby drink she'll be done for it and in serious trouble,

If a pregnant women takes drink while pregnant, she can do so. she can drink herself silly doing untold harm to the fetus.

The fetus life is not equal to that of a baby's, ours laws even support this. To claim otherwise is ignoring the reality of life

I refer you to Article 40.3.3 of our Constitution.

Kiwi in IE

100cent wrote: »

Its tragic, but no crime is being committed.

So you accept that Irish women should be able to kill the same foetuses in London that they are not allowed to kill in Dublin?

You do realise that Irish abortion laws are totally useless in preventing Irish women having abortions don't you? The only women whom it might stop are those who don't have the resources. The majority of women would be able to find the means of they had to, and therefore abort if they chose.

lazygal

100cent wrote: »

I'm not repeating myself to trolling.

I'm not trolling. I agree that perinatal hospice care should be available, but not only because there are no other options but remaining pregnant. I think you know there's no such service available in Ireland, beyond the regular bereavement and mental health services, along with standard antenatal care, in Ireland, despite your unsubstantiated claims to have firsthand experience of perinatal hospice care in a maternity hospital in Ireland.

lazygal

100cent wrote: »

Its tragic, but no crime is being committed.

Is a crime being committed if a woman imports abortion drugs from a legal source and takes them in Ireland?

100cent

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

So you accept that Irish women should be able to kill the same foetuses in London that they are not allowed to kill in Dublin?

You do realise that Irish abortion laws are totally useless in preventing Irish women having abortions don't you? The only women whom it might stop are those who don't have the resources. The majority of women would be able to find the means of they had to, and therefore abort if they chose.

Anything that saves the life of one baby in the womb is to be welcomed.

I have no authority to change laws in other countries.

We must tend to our own shores and do our best to ensure that babies in the womb and their mothers are safe from the evils of abortion on Irish soil.

100cent

lazygal wrote: »

I'm not trolling. I agree that perinatal hospice care should be available, but not only because there are no other options but remaining pregnant. I think you know there's no such service available in Ireland, beyond the regular bereavement and mental health services, along with standard antenatal care, in Ireland, despite your unsubstantiated claims to have firsthand experience of perinatal hospice care in a maternity hospital in Ireland.

I'm not feeding your trolling, despite your continued attempts.

I've told you what I've experienced at close quarters.