Abortion Discussion, Part Trois

Cabaal

http://www.thejournal.ie/enda-kenny-eighth-amendment-abortion-referenda-claim-dail-factcheck-thejournal-ie-2803279-Jun2016/

FactCheck: Did Enda Kenny mislead the Dáil over the Eighth Amendment?

Under one interpretation (that voters decided to keep the provisions of the Eighth amendment), Kenny’s claim was entirely FALSE.

Voters have never been asked whether or not they wanted to keep, replace or remove Article 40.3.iii of the constitution, which is what the Eighth Amendment created.

Under a broader interpretation (that voters decided to keep the spirit of the Eighth Amendment, the guaranteed right to life of the unborn), the Taoiseach is probably right about only one out of the four constitutional amendments in question.

And he is only right if the guarantee in the constitution is strictly interpreted as an absolute guarantee.

For that reason, the claim is also FALSE under this interpretation.

We asked the Taoiseach’s office whether he accepted that his claims were false, and if he would be retracting or modifying them, but we did not receive a response.

You can read the full transcript of Wednesday’s debate here, or watch the video here: Part 1 (starts 46 mins), Part 2.

Absolam

A politician talking rubbish? Front page stuff

aloyisious

Will we ever solve the riddle of article 40.3.3.... The State acknowledges the right to life of the unborn and, with due regard to the equal right to life of the mother, guarantees in its laws to respect, and, as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate that right. - like; which right is being defended and vindicated, seeing as 40.3.3 makes reference to the rights of both the mother and the unborn.....

There's also the clever use of the word "mother" instead of "pregnant woman" in the amendment wording, implying there has been an actual birth involved when there hasn't.....

Absolam

aloyisious wrote: »

Will we ever solve the riddle of article 40.3.3.... The State acknowledges the right to life of the unborn and, with due regard to the equal right to life of the mother, guarantees in its laws to respect, and, as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate that right. - like; which right is being defended and vindicated, seeing as 40.3.3 makes reference to the rights of both the mother and the unborn.....

Is it really that difficult to break down?
"The State acknowledges the right to life of the unborn and, with due regard to the equal right to life of the mother, guarantees in its laws to respect, and, as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate that right".
You have a specific statement which is qualified by parenthetical elements. As per normal grammar rules, it is possible to eliminate all parenthetical elements and leave the essential meaning of the sentence unchanged, so:
"The State acknowledges the right to life of the unborn and guarantees in its laws to respect, and by its laws to defend and vindicate that right".
Each parenthetical element qualifies a portion of the sentence, so working outwards from each element 'as far as practicable' qualifies the statement 'by its laws to defend and vindicate that right', and 'with due regard to the equal right to life of the mother' qualifies the statement 'guarantees in its laws to respect, and, as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate that right'. The demonstrative adjective 'that' in 'that right' can only refer to the right of the unborn, because that is the only right expressed in that element of the sentence; the equal right of the mother is placed in a subordinate element.

If it helps though, the definitive text is in the first language
"Admhaíonn an Stát ceart na mbeo gan breith chun a mbeatha agus, ag féachaint go cuí do chomhcheart na máthar chun a beatha, ráthaíonn sé gan cur isteach lena dhlíthe ar an gceart sin agus ráthaíonn fós an ceart sin a chosaint is a shuíomh lena dhlíthe sa mhéid gur féidir é." makes a distinction; ceart and chomhceart, which renders it immediately obvious that 'an ceart sin' matches to 'ceart' rather than 'chomceart'.

aloyisious wrote: »

There's also the clever use of the word "mother" instead of "pregnant woman" in the amendment wording, implying there has been an actual birth involved when there hasn't.....

Why is it a 'clever' use of the word; what purpose would such an implication serve? It's hardly uncommon that the term mother is used not just for a woman who has carried a child, but one who is carrying a child, both sides of the debate have used the word on this thread to describe a pregnant woman seeking an abortion, or a pregnant woman whose life is at risk.
You yourself have used it on more than one occasion without any apparent difficulty with comprehension.

Neither riddle you propose seems to have exercised the Courts to any degree since 40.3.3. was passed, and if there were any doubt as to construal you'd imagine it would have been tested by now. I think you can safely assume they're only riddles to a very select few...

Absolam

Absolam wrote: »

The problem that the average politician thinks their average chance of being re-elected by their average constituents will go down if they act to introduce more readily available abortion? Could be.

Yup. This exactly.

Averaging Averages does not get us a good estimate of the Population Average.

http://math.stackexchange.com/questions/95909/why-is-an-average-of-an-average-usually-incorrect

Absolam

Deleted User wrote: »

Yup. This exactly. Averaging Averages does not get us a good estimate of the Population Average.

I don't think Proportional Representation was ever designed to provide a Dail that is a mathematical representation of public opinions though... and if it was, like every other democratic system, it hasn't ended up doing so.

Absolam

Absolam wrote: »

I don't think Proportional Representation was ever designed to provide a Dail that is a mathematical representation of public opinions though... and if it was, like every other democratic system, it hasn't ended up doing so.

I never argued that it was.

Absolam

Deleted User wrote: »

I never argued that it was.

So there's no reason to think that politicians not crawling over each other to bring that vote about, thereby ensuring their own re-election is an average of averages problem rearing it's head

Absolam

Absolam wrote: »

So there's no reason to think that politicians not crawling over each other to bring that vote about, thereby ensuring their own re-election is an average of averages problem rearing it's head

Absolam wrote: »

Everyone except the ones who don't? Which would at least appear to include the politicians not crawling over each other to bring that vote about, thereby ensuring their own re-election....

- pointless -

Absolam

Deleted User wrote: »

- pointless -

Probably... but you decided to say it anyway.

aloyisious

Absolam wrote: »

Is it really that difficult to break down?
"The State acknowledges the right to life of the unborn and, with due regard to the equal right to life of the mother, guarantees in its laws to respect, and, as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate that right".
You have a specific statement which is qualified by parenthetical elements. As per normal grammar rules, it is possible to eliminate all parenthetical elements and leave the essential meaning of the sentence unchanged, so:
"The State acknowledges the right to life of the unborn and guarantees in its laws to respect, and by its laws to defend and vindicate that right".
Each parenthetical element qualifies a portion of the sentence, so working outwards from each element 'as far as practicable' qualifies the statement 'by its laws to defend and vindicate that right', and 'with due regard to the equal right to life of the mother' qualifies the statement 'guarantees in its laws to respect, and, as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate that right'. The demonstrative adjective 'that' in 'that right' can only refer to the right of the unborn, because that is the only right expressed in that element of the sentence; the equal right of the mother is placed in a subordinate element.

If it helps though, the definitive text is in the first language
"Admhaíonn an Stát ceart na mbeo gan breith chun a mbeatha agus, ag féachaint go cuí do chomhcheart na máthar chun a beatha, ráthaíonn sé gan cur isteach lena dhlíthe ar an gceart sin agus ráthaíonn fós an ceart sin a chosaint is a shuíomh lena dhlíthe sa mhéid gur féidir é." makes a distinction; ceart and chomhceart, which renders it immediately obvious that 'an ceart sin' matches to 'ceart' rather than 'chomceart'.

Why is it a 'clever' use of the word; what purpose would such an implication serve? It's hardly uncommon that the term mother is used not just for a woman who has carried a child, but one who is carrying a child, both sides of the debate have used the word on this thread to describe a pregnant woman seeking an abortion, or a pregnant woman whose life is at risk.
You yourself have used it on more than one occasion without any apparent difficulty with comprehension.

Neither riddle you propose seems to have exercised the Courts to any degree since 40.3.3. was passed, and if there were any doubt as to construal you'd imagine it would have been tested by now. I think you can safely assume they're only riddles to a very select few...

Ta for pointing out an important part of 40.3.3, that the pregnant woman is subordinate, not equal, to the feotus as far as rights go, the very point I made by referring to the right mentioned at the end of 40.3.3, asking who's right was it?

Re the word Mother, as distinct from those of Pregnant Woman, as you've pointed out, it can mean both pre-birth female person and after-birth female person. The meaning of the word mother is fluid, not definite.

re your last above, maybe the reason the courts haven't been exercised by it is because one side or the other, Pro-life or Pro-choice, would lose if they referred it to the courts and the courts had to make a singular choice on the construal issue of who's right was referred-to there. Both sides might prefer the Status Quo simply to avoid wasting court time resulting in the issue being bounced back to Leinster House, said position probably why there is such a strong fight going on from one side (Pro-life) to avoid a referendum on the 8th (a belief the baby would be thrown out with the 8th) and by the other (Pro-choice) to get a referendum so there would be a definite decision by and of the people, no more legal loose construction of words.

Edit: I used the word baby in the 2nd bracketed piece of my last sentence above as I believe that that is what the Pro-life side believe is in the womb of the pregnant woman.

Absolam

aloyisious wrote: »

Ta for pointing out an important part of 40.3.3, that the pregnant woman is subordinate, not equal, to the feotus as far as rights go, the very point I made by referring to the right mentioned at the end of 40.3.3, asking who's right was it?

Actually, I pointed out that the clause in the sentence was subordinate... if you're desperate to grasp at straws I think you'll need to find another.

aloyisious wrote: »

Re the word Mother, as distinct from those of Pregnant Woman, as you've pointed out, it can mean both pre-birth female person and after-birth female person. The meaning of the word mother is fluid, not definite.

So not 'clever' and without implication? Well done I suppose.

aloyisious wrote: »

re your last above, maybe the reason the courts haven't been exercised by it is because one side or the other, Pro-life or Pro-choice, would lose if they referred it to the courts and the courts had to make a singular choice on the construal issue of who's right was referred-to there. Both sides might prefer the Status Quo simply to avoid wasting court time resulting in the issue being bounced back to Leinster House, said position probably why there is such a strong fight going on from one side (Pro-life) to avoid a referendum on the 8th (in case the baby was thrown out with the bathwater) and by the other (Pro-choice) to get a referendum so there would be a definite decision by and of the people, no more legal loose construction of words.

That's about as big a stretch as the clever implication bit in fairness. I doubt anyone thinks both sides might prefer the Status Quo simply to avoid wasting court time, nor yet that a Supreme Court decision bounces anything back to Leinster House. The sentence can only be construed as it's written; if the language still mystifies you despite my explanation I can only suggest that you ask someone you trust who has a working knowledge of either English or Irish to explain it instead. It's not exactly Ulysses, and I'm almost afraid to speculate as to what you imagine your reconstruction of the sentence would actually achieve; that the right to life of the unborn is equal to that of the mother remains explicit regardless of what you imagine 'that right' refers to (in defiance of grammar).

aloyisious

So when you used use the word subordinate in respect of the pregnant woman, you did not mean in respect of her right?

Edit: I read robdonn's post below and now see your reference was to 40.3.3's grammatical layout, and not it's arguable legal meaning where it refers to two separate rights, both apparently to be seen as equal. Vindicating the right to life of the unborn is also given a legal limitation in 40.3.3, when it also includes the wording "as far as practicable" to defend and vindicate that right.

That may have been a great foresight reference to any future changes in statute law, such as POLDPA, possibly brought in after the amendment was passed, giving legal authority to a medical doctor attending the pregnant woman to decide it was no longer medically practicable to save the feotus in her womb.

I freely admit to having being dancing on the head of a legal pin when arguing the point that 40.3.3 gives both the pregnant woman and the feotus rights to life seemingly equal.

robdonn

aloyisious wrote: »

So when you used use the word subordinate in respect of the pregnant woman, you did not mean in respect of her right?

Absolam was talking about the grammar and structure of the sentence, not about the pregnant woman, when using the word subordinate.

The 8th amendment (supposedly) grants a right to life to the unborn that is equal to the existing right to life of the woman. As the woman already has a right to life, the amendment is specifically talking about the right to life of the unborn when it says "that right".

Absolam

Absolam wrote: »

Probably... but you decided to say it anyway.

Well. No.

I was pointing out that your attempt to win a point was through the use of a terrible metric.

As the averages of averages does not offer the average.

What I said was not at all pointless. I as always look forward to you now telling me that my interpretation of your post was incorrect, and that I am to blame for the reading of the ellipses.

Absolam

Deleted User wrote: »

Well. No. I was pointing out that your attempt to win a point was through the use of a terrible metric. As the averages of averages does not offer the average.

I don't recall saying that an average of averages does offer an average though, nor yet that it was an attempt to win any point? Politicians aren't crawling over each other to bring a vote on the 8th before the electorate, so demonstrably everyone (particularly politicians) doesn't know that Ireland would vote to introduce abortion.

Deleted User wrote: »

What I said was not at all pointless. I as always look forward to you now telling me that my interpretation of your post was incorrect, and that I am to blame for the reading of the ellipses.

Well, if you knew I was going to tell you your reading of my point was incorrect, you also knew what you said was pointless....

Absolam

aloyisious wrote: »

So when you used use the word subordinate in respect of the pregnant woman, you did not mean in respect of her right?

I didn't use the word subordinate in respect of a pregnant woman, but the fact you misread ny use of the word (twice) may explain your issues with reading 40.3.3...

aloyisious wrote: »

Edit: I read robdonn's post below and now see your reference was to 40.3.3's grammatical layout, and not it's arguable legal meaning where it refers to two separate rights, both apparently to be seen as equal. Vindicating the right to life of the unborn is also given a legal limitation in 40.3.3, when it also includes the wording "as far as practicable" to defend and vindicate that right.

Both 'apparently' to be seen as equal? It literally says 'equal right'... that's not apparent, it's explicit.

aloyisious wrote: »

That may have been a great foresight reference to any future changes in statute law, such as POLDPA, possibly brought in after the amendment was passed, giving legal authority to a medical doctor attending the pregnant woman to decide it was no longer medically practicable to save the feotus in her womb.

Well, no. As far as practicable qualifies the State's obligation to defend and vindicate the right to life of the unborn by it's laws. If you read the grammatical explanation I gave you that should be obvious, even if it obviously wasn't apparent to you when you read it yourself. There's no mention of giving legal authority to a medical doctor in there at all.

aloyisious wrote: »

I freely admit to having being dancing on the head of a legal pin when arguing the point that 40.3.3 gives both the pregnant woman and the feotus rights to life seemingly equal.

Actually, you were arguing as to what 'that right' refers to; not that 40.3.3 gives both the pregnant woman and the feotus rights to life seemingly equal. It would be quite a silly argument to make, given that 40.3.3. explicitly states "the equal right to life of the mother", something you must have noticed when you were pontificating on why you imagined the word mother is used to imply there has been an actual birth involved when there hasn't.

aloyisious

Subordinate means what it say's: lower in rank or position. You claim to have meant it in reference to one sentence in 40.3.3 as against other sentences in it. I suggest the use of that word was poorly chosen by you when used in the context of 40.3.3 which list's equality.

Absolam

aloyisious wrote: »

Subordinate means what it say's: lower in rank or position. You claim to have meant it in reference to one sentence in 40.3.3 as against other sentences in it. I suggest the use of that word was poorly chosen by you when used in the context of 40.3.3 which list's equality.

No, I didn't claim any such thing. What I said was
"The demonstrative adjective 'that' in 'that right' can only refer to the right of the unborn, because that is the only right expressed in that element of the sentence; the equal right of the mother is placed in a subordinate element." There's only one sentence being referred to, and the word 'subordinate' was used to refer to an element of that sentence; a paranthetical element.

You can't just see the word and decide for yourself what it refers to, that's not how English works.
In this case, the word 'subordinate' is placed before the word 'element'. That means it refers to the word 'element', and not the words 'equal right of the mother', which come before the word 'subordinate' and are separated from it by 'is placed in a'.

You may suggest that the word was chosen poorly, but the fact is you simply failed to read what was written, just as when you looked at 40.3.3.

robdonn

We asked every TD if they want to repeal the Eighth Amendment - here's what they said

Over the past three weeks, TheJournal.ie asked every TD the following two questions:

1. Are you personally in favour of repealing the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution?
2. Do you want a referendum on the Eighth Amendment to be held in the lifetime of this government?

Each TD was contacted a number of times – via email and telephone. Just under half (47%) of TDs replied – 74 out of 158.

TD/Minister | Party | Constituency | Response to Q1 | Response to Q2
Mick Barry | AAA-PBP | Cork North-Central | YES | YES
Gino Kenny | AAA-PBP | Dublin Mid-West | YES | YES
Bríd Smith | AAA-PBP | Dublin South-Central | YES | YES
Paul Murphy | AAA-PBP | Dublin South-West | YES | YES
Ruth Coppinger | AAA-PBP | Dublin West | YES | YES
Richard Boyd Barrett | AAA-PBP | Dún Laoghaire | YES | YES
Brendan Smith | Fianna Fáil | Cavan-Monaghan | NO | NO
Niamh Smyth | Fianna Fáil | Cavan-Monaghan | DNR | DNR
Timmy Dooley | Fianna Fáil | Clare | DNR | DNR
Kevin O'Keeffe | Fianna Fáil | Cork East | NO | NO
Michael Moynihan | Fianna Fáil | Cork North-West | DNR | DNR
Micheál Martin | Fianna Fáil | Cork South-Central | OTHER | OTHER
Michael McGrath | Fianna Fáil | Cork South-Central | DNR | DNR
Margaret Murphy-O’Mahony | Fianna Fáil | Cork South-West | DNR | DNR
Seán Haughey | Fianna Fáil | Dublin Bay North | DNR | DNR
Jim O'Callaghan* | Fianna Fáil | Dublin Bay South | NO | NO
John Curran | Fianna Fáil | Dublin Mid-West | DNR | DNR
John Lahart | Fianna Fáil | Dublin South-West | DON'T KNOW | DON'T KNOW
Jack Chambers | Fianna Fáil | Dublin West | DNR | DNR
Anne Rabbitte | Fianna Fáil | Galway East | NO | NO
Éamon Ó Cuív | Fianna Fáil | Galway West | NO | NO
John Brassil | Fianna Fáil | Kerry | DNR | DNR
Seán O'Fearghaíl | Fianna Fáil | Kildare South | DNR | DNR
Fiona O'Loughlin | Fianna Fáil | Kildare South | DNR | DNR
Willie O'Dea | Fianna Fáil | Limerick City | NO | NO
Robert Troy | Fianna Fáil | Longford-Westmeath | DNR | DNR
Barry Cowen | Fianna Fáil | Fianna Fáil | NO | NO
Pat 'The Cope' Gallagher | Fianna Fáíl | Donegal | NO | NO
Charlie McConalogue | Fianna Fáíl | Donegal | DNR | DNR
Bobby Aylward | Fianna Fáil | Carlow-Kilkenny | NO | OTHER
John McGuinness | Fianna Fáil | Carlow-Kilkenny | DNR | DNR
Billy Kelleher | Fianna Fáil | Cork North-Central | DNR | DNR
Darragh O'Brien | Fianna Fáil | Dublin Fingal | DNR | DNR
James Lawless | Fianna Fáil | Kildare North | NO | NO
Frank O'Rourke | Fianna Fáil | Kildare North | DNR | DNR
Seán Fleming | Fianna Fáil | Laois | DNR | DNR
Niall Collins | Fianna Fáil | Limerick County | DNR | DNR
Declan Breathnach | Fianna Fáil | Louth | NO | YES
Dara Calleary | Fianna Fáil | Mayo | DNR | DNR
Lisa Chambers | Fianna Fáil | Mayo | DNR | DNR
Thomas Byrne | Fianna Fáil | Meath East | NO | OTHER
Shane Cassells | Fianna Fáil | Meath West | NO | NO
Eugene Murphy | Fianna Fáil | Roscommon-Galway | DNR | DNR
Marc MacSharry | Fianna Fáil | Sligo-Leitrim | NO | OTHER
Eamon Scanlon | Fianna Fáil | Sligo-Leitrim | NO | NO
Jackie Cahill | Fianna Fáil | Tipperary | NO | OTHER
Mary Butler | Fianna Fáil | Waterford | DNR | DNR
James Browne | Fianna Fáil | Wexford | DNR | DNR
Pat Casey* | Fianna Fáil | Wicklow | YES | YES
Aindrias Moynihan | Fiannna Fáil | Cork North-West | DNR | DNR
Heather Humphreys | Fine Gael | Cavan-Monaghan | DNR | DNR
David Stanton | Fine Gael | Cork East | DNR | DNR
Dara Murphy | Fine Gael | Cork North-Central | DNR | DNR
Michael Creed | Fine Gael | Cork North-West | DNR | DNR
Jim Daly | Fine Gael | Cork South-West | DNR | DNR
Joe McHugh | Fine Gael | Donegal | DNR | DNR
Richard Bruton | Fine Gael | Dublin Bay North | DNR | DNR
Eoghan Murphy | Fine Gael | Dublin Bay South | DNR | DNR
Kate O'Connell | Fine Gael | Dublin Bay South | YES | YES
Alan Farrell | Fine Gael | Dublin Fingal | DON'T KNOW | DON'T KNOW
Frances Fitzgerald | Fine Gael | Dublin Mid-West | OTHER | OTHER
Noel Rock | Fine Gael | Dublin North-West | DNR | DNR
Josepha Madigan | Fine Gael | Dublin Rathdown | YES | YES
Catherine Byrne | Fine Gael | Dublin South-Central | DNR | DNR
Colm Brophy | Fine Gael | Dublin South-West | DNR | DNR
Leo Varadkar | Fine Gael | Dublin West | YES | YES
Seán Barrett | Fine Gael | Dún Laoghaire | DNR | DNR
Maria Bailey | Fine Gael | Dún Laoghaire | YES | YES
Mary Mitchell O'Connor | Fine Gael | Dún Laoghaire | DNR | DNR
Ciarán Cannon | Fine Gael | Galway East | DNR | DNR
Seán Kyne | Fine Gael | Galway West | DNR | DNR
Hildegarde Naughton | Fine Gael | Galway West | DNR | DNR
Brendan Griffin | Fine Gael | Kerry | DNR | DNR
Bernard Durkan | Fine Gael | Kildare North | OTHER | OTHER
Martin Heydon | Fine Gael | Kildare South | DNR | DNR
Charlie Flanagan | Fine Gael | Laois | DNR | DNR
Michael Noonan | Fine Gael | Limerick City | DNR | DNR
Tom Neville | Fine Gael | Limerick County | DNR | DNR
Patrick O'Donovan | Fine Gael | Limerick County | DNR | DNR
Peter Burke | Fine Gael | Longford-Westmeath | NO | NO
Peter Fitzpatrick | Fine Gael | Louth | DNR | DNR
Fergus O'Dowd* | Fine Gael | Louth | YES | YES
Regina Doherty | Fine Gael | Meath East | DNR | DNR
Helen McEntee | Fine Gael | Meath East | DNR | DNR
Damien English | Fine Gael | Meath West | DNR | DNR
Marcella O'Corcoran-Kennedy | Fine Gael | Fine Gael | DNR | DNR
Tony McLoughlin | Fine Gael | Sligo-Leitrim | DON'T KNOW | YES
Michael D'Arcy | Fine Gael | Wexford | DNR | DNR
Paul Kehoe | Fine Gael | Wexford | DNR | DNR
Andrew Doyle | Fine Gael | Wicklow | NO | OTHER
Simon Harris | Fine Gael | Wicklow | DNR | DNR
Pat Deering | Fine Gael | Carlow-Kilkenny | DNR | DNR
John Paul Phelan | Fine Gael | Carlow-Kilkenny | DNR | DNR
Pat Breen | Fine Gael | Clare | DNR | DNR
Joe Carey | Fine Gael | Clare | DNR | DNR
Simon Coveney | Fine Gael | Cork South-Central | DNR | DNR
Paschal Donohoe | Fine Gael | Dublin Central | DNR | DNR
Enda Kenny | Fine Gael | Mayo | OTHER | OTHER
Michael Ring | Fine Gael | Mayo | DNR | DNR
John Deasy | Fine Gael | Waterford | DNR | DNR
Eamon Ryan | Green Party | Dublin Bay South | YES | YES
Catherine Martin | Green Party | Dublin Rathdown | YES | YES
Denis Naughten | Independent | Roscommon-Galway | DNR | DNR
Michael Harty | Independent | Clare | DNR | DNR
Michael Collins | Independent | Cork South-West | NO | NO
Thomas Pringle | Independent | Donegal | YES | YES
Tommy Broughan | Independent | Dublin Bay North | YES | YES
Maureen O'Sullivan | Independent | Dublin Central | YES | YES
Katherine Zappone | Independent | Dublin South-West | YES | YES
Catherine Connolly | Independent | Galway West | YES | YES
Noel Grealish | Independent | Galway West | DNR | DNR
Michael Healy-Rae | Independent | Kerry | DNR | DNR
Danny Healy-Rae | Independent | Kerry | NO | NO
Michael Lowry | Independent | Tipperary | DNR | DNR
Mattie McGrath | Independent | Tipperary | NO | NO
Finian McGrath | Independent Alliance | Dublin Bay North | YES | YES
Shane Ross | Independent Alliance | Dublin Rathdown | DNR | DNR
Seán Canney | Independent Alliance | Galway East | NO | NO
Michael Fitzmaurice | Independent Alliance | Roscommon-Galway | DNR | DNR
Kevin 'Boxer' Moran | Independent Alliance | Longford-Westmeath | DNR | DNR
John Halligan | Independent Alliance | Waterford | DNR | DNR
Clare Daly | Independents4Change | Dublin Fingal | DNR | DNR
Joan Collins | Independents4Change | Dublin South-Central | YES | YES
Mick Wallace | Independents4Change | Wexford | DNR | DNR
Seán Sherlock | Labour | Cork East | YES | YES
Joan Burton | Labour | Dublin West | YES | YES
Jan O'Sullivan | Labour | Limerick City | YES | YES
Willie Penrose | Labour | Longford-Westmeath | DNR | DNR
Alan Kelly | Labour | Tipperary | YES | YES
Brendan Howlin | Labour | Wexford | YES | YES
Brendan Ryan | Labour | Dublin Fingal | DNR | DNR
Kathleen Funchion | Sinn Féin | Carlow-Kilkenny | DNR | DNR
Caoimghín Ó Caoláin | Sinn Féin | Cavan-Monaghan | YES | YES
Pat Buckley | Sinn Féin | Cork East | YES | YES
Jonathan O'Brien | Sinn Féin | Cork North-Central | YES | YES
Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire | Sinn Féin | Cork South-Central | YES | YES
Pearse Doherty | Sinn Féin | Donegal | DNR | DNR
Mary Lou McDonald | Sinn Féin | Dublin Central | YES | YES
Louise O'Reilly | Sinn Féin | Dublin Fingal | YES | YES
Eoin Ó Broin | Sinn Féin | Dublin Mid-West | YES | YES
Dessie Ellis | Sinn Féin | Dublin North-West | YES | YES
Aengus Ó Snodaigh | Sinn Féin | Dublin South-Central | DNR | DNR
Seán Crowe | Sinn Féin | Dublin South-West | YES | YES
Martin Ferris | Sinn Féin | Kerry | YES | YES
Brian Stanley | Sinn Féin | Laois | DNR | DNR
Maurice Quinlivan | Sinn Féin | Limerick City | YES | YES
Gerry Adams | Sinn Féin | Louth | YES | YES
Imelda Munster | Sinn Féin | Louth | DNR | DNR
Peadar Tóibín | Sinn Féin | Meath West | DNR | DNR
Carol Nolan | Sinn Féin | Offaly | DNR | DNR
Martin Kenny | Sinn Féin | Sligo-Leitrim | DNR | DNR
David Cullinane | Sinn Féin | Waterford | YES | YES
John Brady | Sinn Féin | Wicklow | YES | YES
Denise Mitchell | Sinn Féin | Dublin Bay North | YES | YES
Catherine Murphy | Social Democrat | Kildare North | YES | YES
Stephen Donnelly | Social Democrat | Wicklow | YES | YES
Róisín Shortall | Social Democrats | Dublin North-West | YES | YES
Séamus Healy | WUAG | Tipperary | YES | YES

robdonn

robdonn wrote: »

We asked every TD if they want to repeal the Eighth Amendment - here's what they said

Shout out to Declan Breathnach (FF), the only TD who said that he is against removing the 8th amendment but still in favour of holding a referendum on it.

TD/Minister | Party | Constituency | Response to Q1 | Response to Q2
Declan Breathnach | Fianna Fáil | Louth | NO | YES

robdonn

A mystery of our time: How do you get a TD to answer a question?

Another TD was overheard in Leinster House telling a colleague “The f***ing Journal is asking us about abortion again.” He was unsure of what to say and did not reply.

Absolam

Some good politicking from Declan... morally upstanding for those as like it but keen on democracy for those who may think different. Not a fan of keeping the Church out of the debate though; may win him some votes but lose him some others?

robdonn

People are divided on the Eighth Amendment, but half want it repealed

ABOUT HALF OF Irish people are in favour of the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution being repealed.

Some 49% of people surveyed in a recent opinion poll want the amendment – which gives the life of the unborn equal status to the life of a mother – to be removed.

A further 19% of people said they are not in favour of it being repealed, while 32% aren’t sure.

Absolam

Just not enough of them to convince 53% of politicians to have an opinion on the matter...

aloyisious

Absolam wrote: »

No, I didn't claim any such thing. What I said was
"The demonstrative adjective 'that' in 'that right' can only refer to the right of the unborn, because that is the only right expressed in that element of the sentence; the equal right of the mother is placed in a subordinate element." There's only one sentence being referred to, and the word 'subordinate' was used to refer to an element of that sentence; a paranthetical element.

You can't just see the word and decide for yourself what it refers to, that's not how English works.
In this case, the word 'subordinate' is placed before the word 'element'. That means it refers to the word 'element', and not the words 'equal right of the mother', which come before the word 'subordinate' and are separated from it by 'is placed in a'.

You may suggest that the word was chosen poorly, but the fact is you simply failed to read what was written, just as when you looked at 40.3.3.

So you now claim that your use of the word subordinate was in reference to the word element, and not the sentence as you previously wrote, not even any particular part of that one sentence.

You can divide the whole of 40.3.3 into as many grammatical sections as you please for whatever grammatical reasons you want, but the essential part of 40.3.3 is that it must be read in it's legal entirety. It's very essence is that it is a legal instrument, not merely a set of English or Irish words to be debated on as mere grammar.

I suggest to you that is a fact that you keep changing the goalposts every time it is pointed that there is a hole in what you wrote. You then write something else stating that the O/P doesn't understand what you wrote.

I noted your offer several posts back to introduce our Language into use in the debate here and can't help wondering what effect that would have on others here not literate in Irish in understanding what was being debated here, let alone it being debated in grammatical-English fashion by your good self.

aloyisious

Absolam wrote: »

Some good politicking from Declan... morally upstanding for those as like it but keen on democracy for those who may think different. Not a fan of keeping the Church out of the debate though; may win him some votes but lose him some others?

Do you think he is a TD with a definite fixed position on A: the issue of abortion as written in 40.3.3, and B: the separate issue of giving the electorate a vote on the issue of changing the wording of 40.3.3 in a new referendum?

aloyisious

robdonn wrote: »

We asked every TD if they want to repeal the Eighth Amendment - here's what they said







TD/Minister | Party | Constituency | Response to Q1 | Response to Q2
Mick Barry | AAA-PBP | Cork North-Central | YES | YES
Gino Kenny | AAA-PBP | Dublin Mid-West | YES | YES
Bríd Smith | AAA-PBP | Dublin South-Central | YES | YES
Paul Murphy | AAA-PBP | Dublin South-West | YES | YES
Ruth Coppinger | AAA-PBP | Dublin West | YES | YES
Richard Boyd Barrett | AAA-PBP | Dún Laoghaire | YES | YES
Brendan Smith | Fianna Fáil | Cavan-Monaghan | NO | NO
Niamh Smyth | Fianna Fáil | Cavan-Monaghan | DNR | DNR
Timmy Dooley | Fianna Fáil | Clare | DNR | DNR
Kevin O'Keeffe | Fianna Fáil | Cork East | NO | NO
Michael Moynihan | Fianna Fáil | Cork North-West | DNR | DNR
Micheál Martin | Fianna Fáil | Cork South-Central | OTHER | OTHER
Michael McGrath | Fianna Fáil | Cork South-Central | DNR | DNR
Margaret Murphy-O’Mahony | Fianna Fáil | Cork South-West | DNR | DNR
Seán Haughey | Fianna Fáil | Dublin Bay North | DNR | DNR
Jim O'Callaghan* | Fianna Fáil | Dublin Bay South | NO | NO
John Curran | Fianna Fáil | Dublin Mid-West | DNR | DNR
John Lahart | Fianna Fáil | Dublin South-West | DON'T KNOW | DON'T KNOW
Jack Chambers | Fianna Fáil | Dublin West | DNR | DNR
Anne Rabbitte | Fianna Fáil | Galway East | NO | NO
Éamon Ó Cuív | Fianna Fáil | Galway West | NO | NO
John Brassil | Fianna Fáil | Kerry | DNR | DNR
Seán O'Fearghaíl | Fianna Fáil | Kildare South | DNR | DNR
Fiona O'Loughlin | Fianna Fáil | Kildare South | DNR | DNR
Willie O'Dea | Fianna Fáil | Limerick City | NO | NO
Robert Troy | Fianna Fáil | Longford-Westmeath | DNR | DNR
Barry Cowen | Fianna Fáil | Fianna Fáil | NO | NO
Pat 'The Cope' Gallagher | Fianna Fáíl | Donegal | NO | NO
Charlie McConalogue | Fianna Fáíl | Donegal | DNR | DNR
Bobby Aylward | Fianna Fáil | Carlow-Kilkenny | NO | OTHER
John McGuinness | Fianna Fáil | Carlow-Kilkenny | DNR | DNR
Billy Kelleher | Fianna Fáil | Cork North-Central | DNR | DNR
Darragh O'Brien | Fianna Fáil | Dublin Fingal | DNR | DNR
James Lawless | Fianna Fáil | Kildare North | NO | NO
Frank O'Rourke | Fianna Fáil | Kildare North | DNR | DNR
Seán Fleming | Fianna Fáil | Laois | DNR | DNR
Niall Collins | Fianna Fáil | Limerick County | DNR | DNR
Declan Breathnach | Fianna Fáil | Louth | NO | YES
Dara Calleary | Fianna Fáil | Mayo | DNR | DNR
Lisa Chambers | Fianna Fáil | Mayo | DNR | DNR
Thomas Byrne | Fianna Fáil | Meath East | NO | OTHER
Shane Cassells | Fianna Fáil | Meath West | NO | NO
Eugene Murphy | Fianna Fáil | Roscommon-Galway | DNR | DNR
Marc MacSharry | Fianna Fáil | Sligo-Leitrim | NO | OTHER
Eamon Scanlon | Fianna Fáil | Sligo-Leitrim | NO | NO
Jackie Cahill | Fianna Fáil | Tipperary | NO | OTHER
Mary Butler | Fianna Fáil | Waterford | DNR | DNR
James Browne | Fianna Fáil | Wexford | DNR | DNR
Pat Casey* | Fianna Fáil | Wicklow | YES | YES
Aindrias Moynihan | Fiannna Fáil | Cork North-West | DNR | DNR
Heather Humphreys | Fine Gael | Cavan-Monaghan | DNR | DNR
David Stanton | Fine Gael | Cork East | DNR | DNR
Dara Murphy | Fine Gael | Cork North-Central | DNR | DNR
Michael Creed | Fine Gael | Cork North-West | DNR | DNR
Jim Daly | Fine Gael | Cork South-West | DNR | DNR
Joe McHugh | Fine Gael | Donegal | DNR | DNR
Richard Bruton | Fine Gael | Dublin Bay North | DNR | DNR
Eoghan Murphy | Fine Gael | Dublin Bay South | DNR | DNR
Kate O'Connell | Fine Gael | Dublin Bay South | YES | YES
Alan Farrell | Fine Gael | Dublin Fingal | DON'T KNOW | DON'T KNOW
Frances Fitzgerald | Fine Gael | Dublin Mid-West | OTHER | OTHER
Noel Rock | Fine Gael | Dublin North-West | DNR | DNR
Josepha Madigan | Fine Gael | Dublin Rathdown | YES | YES
Catherine Byrne | Fine Gael | Dublin South-Central | DNR | DNR
Colm Brophy | Fine Gael | Dublin South-West | DNR | DNR
Leo Varadkar | Fine Gael | Dublin West | YES | YES
Seán Barrett | Fine Gael | Dún Laoghaire | DNR | DNR
Maria Bailey | Fine Gael | Dún Laoghaire | YES | YES
Mary Mitchell O'Connor | Fine Gael | Dún Laoghaire | DNR | DNR
Ciarán Cannon | Fine Gael | Galway East | DNR | DNR
Seán Kyne | Fine Gael | Galway West | DNR | DNR
Hildegarde Naughton | Fine Gael | Galway West | DNR | DNR
Brendan Griffin | Fine Gael | Kerry | DNR | DNR
Bernard Durkan | Fine Gael | Kildare North | OTHER | OTHER
Martin Heydon | Fine Gael | Kildare South | DNR | DNR
Charlie Flanagan | Fine Gael | Laois | DNR | DNR
Michael Noonan | Fine Gael | Limerick City | DNR | DNR
Tom Neville | Fine Gael | Limerick County | DNR | DNR
Patrick O'Donovan | Fine Gael | Limerick County | DNR | DNR
Peter Burke | Fine Gael | Longford-Westmeath | NO | NO
Peter Fitzpatrick | Fine Gael | Louth | DNR | DNR
Fergus O'Dowd* | Fine Gael | Louth | YES | YES
Regina Doherty | Fine Gael | Meath East | DNR | DNR
Helen McEntee | Fine Gael | Meath East | DNR | DNR
Damien English | Fine Gael | Meath West | DNR | DNR
Marcella O'Corcoran-Kennedy | Fine Gael | Fine Gael | DNR | DNR
Tony McLoughlin | Fine Gael | Sligo-Leitrim | DON'T KNOW | YES
Michael D'Arcy | Fine Gael | Wexford | DNR | DNR
Paul Kehoe | Fine Gael | Wexford | DNR | DNR
Andrew Doyle | Fine Gael | Wicklow | NO | OTHER
Simon Harris | Fine Gael | Wicklow | DNR | DNR
Pat Deering | Fine Gael | Carlow-Kilkenny | DNR | DNR
John Paul Phelan | Fine Gael | Carlow-Kilkenny | DNR | DNR
Pat Breen | Fine Gael | Clare | DNR | DNR
Joe Carey | Fine Gael | Clare | DNR | DNR
Simon Coveney | Fine Gael | Cork South-Central | DNR | DNR
Paschal Donohoe | Fine Gael | Dublin Central | DNR | DNR
Enda Kenny | Fine Gael | Mayo | OTHER | OTHER
Michael Ring | Fine Gael | Mayo | DNR | DNR
John Deasy | Fine Gael | Waterford | DNR | DNR
Eamon Ryan | Green Party | Dublin Bay South | YES | YES
Catherine Martin | Green Party | Dublin Rathdown | YES | YES
Denis Naughten | Independent | Roscommon-Galway | DNR | DNR
Michael Harty | Independent | Clare | DNR | DNR
Michael Collins | Independent | Cork South-West | NO | NO
Thomas Pringle | Independent | Donegal | YES | YES
Tommy Broughan | Independent | Dublin Bay North | YES | YES
Maureen O'Sullivan | Independent | Dublin Central | YES | YES
Katherine Zappone | Independent | Dublin South-West | YES | YES
Catherine Connolly | Independent | Galway West | YES | YES
Noel Grealish | Independent | Galway West | DNR | DNR
Michael Healy-Rae | Independent | Kerry | DNR | DNR
Danny Healy-Rae | Independent | Kerry | NO | NO
Michael Lowry | Independent | Tipperary | DNR | DNR
Mattie McGrath | Independent | Tipperary | NO | NO
Finian McGrath | Independent Alliance | Dublin Bay North | YES | YES
Shane Ross | Independent Alliance | Dublin Rathdown | DNR | DNR
Seán Canney | Independent Alliance | Galway East | NO | NO
Michael Fitzmaurice | Independent Alliance | Roscommon-Galway | DNR | DNR
Kevin 'Boxer' Moran | Independent Alliance | Longford-Westmeath | DNR | DNR
John Halligan | Independent Alliance | Waterford | DNR | DNR
Clare Daly | Independents4Change | Dublin Fingal | DNR | DNR
Joan Collins | Independents4Change | Dublin South-Central | YES | YES
Mick Wallace | Independents4Change | Wexford | DNR | DNR
Seán Sherlock | Labour | Cork East | YES | YES
Joan Burton | Labour | Dublin West | YES | YES
Jan O'Sullivan | Labour | Limerick City | YES | YES
Willie Penrose | Labour | Longford-Westmeath | DNR | DNR
Alan Kelly | Labour | Tipperary | YES | YES
Brendan Howlin | Labour | Wexford | YES | YES
Brendan Ryan | Labour | Dublin Fingal | DNR | DNR
Kathleen Funchion | Sinn Féin | Carlow-Kilkenny | DNR | DNR
Caoimghín Ó Caoláin | Sinn Féin | Cavan-Monaghan | YES | YES
Pat Buckley | Sinn Féin | Cork East | YES | YES
Jonathan O'Brien | Sinn Féin | Cork North-Central | YES | YES
Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire | Sinn Féin | Cork South-Central | YES | YES
Pearse Doherty | Sinn Féin | Donegal | DNR | DNR
Mary Lou McDonald | Sinn Féin | Dublin Central | YES | YES
Louise O'Reilly | Sinn Féin | Dublin Fingal | YES | YES
Eoin Ó Broin | Sinn Féin | Dublin Mid-West | YES | YES
Dessie Ellis | Sinn Féin | Dublin North-West | YES | YES
Aengus Ó Snodaigh | Sinn Féin | Dublin South-Central | DNR | DNR
Seán Crowe | Sinn Féin | Dublin South-West | YES | YES
Martin Ferris | Sinn Féin | Kerry | YES | YES
Brian Stanley | Sinn Féin | Laois | DNR | DNR
Maurice Quinlivan | Sinn Féin | Limerick City | YES | YES
Gerry Adams | Sinn Féin | Louth | YES | YES
Imelda Munster | Sinn Féin | Louth | DNR | DNR
Peadar Tóibín | Sinn Féin | Meath West | DNR | DNR
Carol Nolan | Sinn Féin | Offaly | DNR | DNR
Martin Kenny | Sinn Féin | Sligo-Leitrim | DNR | DNR
David Cullinane | Sinn Féin | Waterford | YES | YES
John Brady | Sinn Féin | Wicklow | YES | YES
Denise Mitchell | Sinn Féin | Dublin Bay North | YES | YES
Catherine Murphy | Social Democrat | Kildare North | YES | YES
Stephen Donnelly | Social Democrat | Wicklow | YES | YES
Róisín Shortall | Social Democrats | Dublin North-West | YES | YES
Séamus Healy | WUAG | Tipperary | YES | YES

I'd like to download and save the vertical TD's response list but can't find it's location on the link. I tried to save it separately from the page here but it'd involve saving the entire page and individuals posts in the debate. Can you give me the list link location on the article please?

Absolam

aloyisious wrote: »

So you now claim that your use of the word subordinate was in reference to the word element, and not the sentence as you previously wrote, not even any particular part of that one sentence.

Nope I'm still saying what I already said; you can tell by the way I repeated it. It's just you trying to confuse yourself further. But here it is again to refresh your memory.
"The demonstrative adjective 'that' in 'that right' can only refer to the right of the unborn, because that is the only right expressed in that element of the sentence; the equal right of the mother is placed in a subordinate element."

aloyisious wrote: »

You can divide the whole of 40.3.3 into as many grammatical sections as you please for whatever grammatical reasons you want, but the essential part of 40.3.3 is that it must be read in it's legal entirety. It's very essence is that it is a legal instrument, not merely a set of English or Irish words to be debated on as mere grammar.

Would you care to venture an opinion on which languages it's written in? Because like it or not, if it's written in a language, it's subject to the grammatical constraints of that language. I have a sneaking suspicion that your notion of a 'legal entirety' departs from grammatically acceptable linguistic usage, but I assure you the Constitution doesn't. You can only divide into as many grammatical sections as it has, and reading it in it's legal (or otherwise) entirety won't make it stop conforming to grammatical rules, or cause words to magically refer to things they don't.

aloyisious wrote: »

I suggest to you that is a fact that you keep changing the goalposts every time it is pointed that there is a hole in what you wrote. You then write something else stating that the O/P doesn't understand what you wrote.

I think you'll find nothing has moved apart from your point of view; the language has remained the same, the grammar has remained the same, the goalposts are the same, you're just focusing on different words in the hope they'll change what's written. They won't though.

aloyisious wrote: »

I noted your offer several posts back to introduce our Language into use in the debate here and can't help wondering what effect that would have on others here not literate in Irish in understanding what was being debated here, let alone it being debated in grammatical-English fashion by your good self.

I didn't made any such offer, but I suppose wondering can't do you much harm? You may be referring to when I told you the definitive text is in the first language; that's still the case. I wouldn't want you to think I was moving any goalposts.

aloyisious wrote: »

Do you think he is a TD with a definite fixed position on A: the issue of abortion as written in 40.3.3, and B: the separate issue of giving the electorate a vote on the issue of changing the wording of 40.3.3 in a new referendum?

I've given it some thought and I can't say I do; I've no idea if he's even inclined to definitive fixed positions. What do you think?

robdonn

aloyisious wrote: »

I'd like to download and save the vertical TD's response list but can't find it's location on the link. I tried to save it separately from the page here but it'd involve saving the entire page and individuals posts in the debate. Can you give me the list link location on the article please?

You can download the list HERE. It's an excel file that also includes comments from many of the TDs, I didn't include them above as it was too much info for a single post.

In the article, the link is in the paragraph after the second chart.

A full list of what TDs said, and who did and didn’t reply, can be read here. Although some TDs may have voiced opinions on the subject in the past, this survey is not based on previous comments.