Administrative Officer 2015 open competition

TCO

Emmal14 wrote: »

Thanks a mill! Is that for new civil servants? I would be coming in from the private sector.

Yeah that's the rate for new civil servants. You'll get an increment every year subject to satisfactory performance.

Hopefully there'll be plenty of positions available - I'm in the 80s on the panel. I've heard there are about 100 positions to be filled.

ashball

I'm just hoping that by the time they make the offers enough people have wandered off that they get to my (lowish) number!

Gawd it's like the CAO for adults..

roe_cat

Are you sure about those salary scales? Impact is still showing a lower starting point...
http://www.impact.ie/your-sector/public-sector/civil-service/civil-service-salary-scales/civil-service-salary-scales-2016/civil-service-general-service-grades-2016/

roe_cat

For the interview - I'm not actually so sure how much the feedback matters... it's so subjective.

Did the same interviews last year (still in same job since then so no new experience to show...) Last year I fell down on leadership and they didn't think a whole lot of my interpersonal skills - this year my best marks were on interpersonal skills. Definitely felt that it helped a lot that the interview board this time were from departments more likely to be interested in my background.

I didn't think that I had done well on specific competencies - conversation flowed well but I really didn't come up with many examples to tick the boxes... Didn't seem to matter in the end.

As for the presentation - didn't feel I had done great last time and they gave me 80. This time I was confident going in, sat in front of the same two people and gave a far better presentation. Mark this time - 60...

TCO

That scale on the impact site is for civil servants hired pre April 95 that aren't making a pension contribution.

The PPC scale I posted earlier is the applicable one for people that join the service post April 95.

:Keith:

Emmal14 wrote: »

I got one sentence of feedback for interview how long was yours? ?

Sorry, I should clarify! I only got one a sentence as well, but was enlightening in the sense I really wasn't sure how the interview went.

I got in the 30s so feeling somewhat hopeful.

Emmal14

TCO wrote: »

Yeah that's the rate for new civil servants. You'll get an increment every year subject to satisfactory performance.

Hopefully there'll be plenty of positions available - I'm in the 80s on the panel. I've heard there are about 100 positions to be filled.

That would be fantastic as I am 103! Fingers crossed! It's the not knowing that is killing me

TCO

Emmal14 wrote: »

That would be fantastic as I am 103! Fingers crossed! It's the not knowing that is killing me

Same here. The 100 figure seems reasonable in the light of the announcement that there will be 200 grad jobs in total. Again, the 100 figure is only what I heard,nothing can be taken for granted with recruitment in the public sector, so we'll have wait and see what PAS say!

Emmal14

TCO wrote: »

Same here. The 100 figure seems reasonable in the light of the announcement that there will be 200 grad jobs in total. Again, the 100 figure is only what I heard,nothing can be taken for granted with recruitment in the public sector, so we'll have wait and see what PAS say!

I'd say I have already wrecked PAS staff heads with emails asking questions. They could avoid so much if there was more information available. Now I know they probably don't know themselves but it's so frustrating particular for those of us outside the civil service

Emmal14

TCO wrote: »

That scale on the impact site is for civil servants hired pre April 95 that aren't making a pension contribution.

The PPC scale I posted earlier is the applicable one for people that join the service post April 95.

As per TCO http://www.per.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/DPER-Circular-17.2015.pdf

eleah

apologies if this seems like a stupid question but what do the various figures mean - ie: first is 32+K, second 33+K etc. what is this sliding scale based on?
and i got number 130 which from the posts on this thread suggests I wont get a look in - so I should keep looking for something else?

TCO

eleah wrote: »

apologies if this seems like a stupid question but what do the various figures mean - ie: first is 32+K, second 33+K etc. what is this sliding scale based on?
and i got number 130 which from the posts on this thread suggests I wont get a look in - so I should keep looking for something else?

On day 1 you'll start off on €30,221. After one year you'll move to the next point on the scale, which is €32,575 - provided your performance has been satisfactory. And so on for every subsequent year until the max point on the scale is reached. Note that the last 2 points on the scale are long service increments so you'll get yearly increments up to €54,329 and then you'll have to serve a further 3 years to get to each of the last 2 points on the scale. I hope that makes sense!

We have no idea how many people will be taken over the life of this panel. Even if there are 100 posts to be filled that might mean that 120-140 (making up figures off the top of my head here) offers are made to fill those posts, as the majority of the jobs will be based in Dublin.

eleah

thanks for clearing that up!

Emmal14

I wonder how long this panel will last and how fast they will be calling people?

TCO

Emmal14 wrote: »

I wonder how long this panel will last and how fast they will be calling people?

The panel will last 12 months.

I had a peek at last years thread there - seems they got to around no. 70 on the panel after about 3 months... however only 115 were initially called forward to the final round last year.

How fast they call people is dependent on the number of requests received from Departments for staff. Its also probable that there will be an increased number of retirements before June 2016 due to retirement terms becoming less favorable after that date - that might result in an increased demand for AOs. Again that is only me making an educated guess.

Emmal14

TCO wrote: »

The panel will last 12 months.

I had a peek at last years thread there - seems they got to around no. 70 on the panel after about 3 months... however only 115 were initially called forward to the final round last year.

How fast they call people is dependent on the number of requests received from Departments for staff. Its also probable that there will be an increased number of retirements before June 2016 due to retirement terms becoming less favorable after that date - that might result in an increased demand for AOs. Again that is only me making an educated guess.

Hmm interesting! I remember they had said initially that they would like to get everyone in the first quarter of 2016

RWC15champions

TCO wrote: »

The panel will last 12 months.

I had a peek at last years thread there - seems they got to around no. 70 on the panel after about 3 months... however only 115 were initially called forward to the final round last year.

How fast they call people is dependent on the number of requests received from Departments for staff. Its also probable that there will be an increased number of retirements before June 2016 due to retirement terms becoming less favorable after that date - that might result in an increased demand for AOs. Again that is only me making an educated guess.

The less favourable retirement conditions that you are referring to will not come into effect until 2019 now.

TCO

Emmal14 wrote: »

Hmm interesting! I remember they had said initially that they would like to get everyone in the first quarter of 2016

Here's hoping everyone includes ourselves!

The_Conductor

Emmal14 wrote: »

Hmm interesting! I remember they had said initially that they would like to get everyone in the first quarter of 2016

At AO (and increasingly EO) they tend to recruit in groups- so home Departments can organise induction training for groups- rather than piecemeal in ones and twos. That said- ones and twos- are far from unusual........

The imperative at the moment is to backfill at the lower grades- and stated policy is enhanced external recruitment at the higher grades- so I would expect promotional prospects to be poor for serving civil servants going forwards.......

Calina

The_Conductor wrote: »

The imperative at the moment is to backfill at the lower grades- and stated policy is enhanced external recruitment at the higher grades- so I would expect promotional prospects to be poor for serving civil servants going forwards.......

I think there is an argument in favour of external recruitment at higher grades because there's a high risk of very insular thinking otherwise. However, it is a major error to completely disengage your staff by not offering them opportunity for advancement. Balance matters in other words.

The_Conductor

Calina wrote: »

I think there is an argument in favour of external recruitment at higher grades because there's a high risk of very insular thinking otherwise. However, it is a major error to completely disengage your staff by not offering them opportunity for advancement. Balance matters in other words.

I agree with you.
The issue now is there is a perception that there is no promotional pathway for existing staff- who feel the recruitment process (computerised exams etc)- favours far younger staff- esp. those recently out of college- and has no cognisance or value attributed to people's experience and skills- its all a computerised exam that you either get on the day- or not.....

If there is a performance measurement process (PMDS) surely it should be more than simply a gateway to establish a right to do an exam- its an additional hoop that doesn't exist for other candidates........

There were no promotions and no recruitment for most of the last 15 years- now the pre-existing staff are being made felt like they're commodities and of little value other than in positions akin to their current posts.......

I'm not sure if you're in the service or not- but the disillusionment in the civil service- particularly in grades such as IT grades- which were dumbed down to general service grades- is palpable- and now that the economy is getting better- people are actively seeing what their options are elsewhere. I recently met 4 EO ICTs at an interview who I know- none of whom were aware that the others were all being interviewed for the same positions (with one of the major outsourced IT firms). This is the future- if management don't cop on and understand that the biggest asset any company- including the civil service, has is its staff.

The civil service cannot sell itself to prospect employees any longer- predominantly on the basis that its the civil service. It is going to have to fight with other prospective employers- and sell itself to both prospective employees and current employees- if it intends to keep them. Anyone who is any good at all- can earn significantly more and have better employment conditions- pretty much anywhere other than the civil service these days.

billyhead

The_Conductor wrote: »

I agree with you.
The issue now is there is a perception that there is no promotional pathway for existing staff- who feel the recruitment process (computerised exams etc)- favours far younger staff- esp. those recently out of college- and has no cognisance or value attributed to people's experience and skills- its all a computerised exam that you either get on the day- or not.....

If there is a performance measurement process (PMDS) surely it should be more than simply a gateway to establish a right to do an exam- its an additional hoop that doesn't exist for other candidates........

There were no promotions and no recruitment for most of the last 15 years- now the pre-existing staff are being made felt like they're commodities and of little value other than in positions akin to their current posts.......

I'm not sure if you're in the service or not- but the disillusionment in the civil service- particularly in grades such as IT grades- which were dumbed down to general service grades- is palpable- and now that the economy is getting better- people are actively seeing what their options are elsewhere. I recently met 4 EO ICTs at an interview who I know- none of whom were aware that the others were all being interviewed for the same positions (with one of the major outsourced IT firms). This is the future- if management don't cop on and understand that the biggest asset any company- including the civil service, has is its staff.

The civil service cannot sell itself to prospect employees any longer- predominantly on the basis that its the civil service. It is going to have to fight with other prospective employers- and sell itself to both prospective employees and current employees- if it intends to keep them. Anyone who is any good at all- can earn significantly more and have better employment conditions- pretty much anywhere other than the civil service these days.

All true the morale in some departments with the lack of promotional opportunities for internal staff is poor especially in the DSP where they took CWOs in and automatically graded them at HEO level thus filling most of these positions without them having to go through a recruitment process.

Calina

The_Conductor wrote: »

I agree with you.
The issue now is there is a perception that there is no promotional pathway for existing staff- who feel the recruitment process (computerised exams etc)- favours far younger staff- esp. those recently out of college- and has no cognisance or value attributed to people's experience and skills- its all a computerised exam that you either get on the day- or not.....

There may be that feeling but anecdotally, the vast majority of people passing through the process that I am aware of lately are not young graduates. So while people may think the recruitment process favours the younger staff, the problem is that it is not a career that is attracting young people in the numbers it used to.

As far as I am aware, the exams have always existed; it is the format which has changed. FWIW, by the way, the current AO recruitment process has required that those tests be taken twice.

The_Conductor wrote: »

If there is a performance measurement process (PMDS) surely it should be more than simply a gateway to establish a right to do an exam- its an additional hoop that doesn't exist for other candidates........

You may say that but then against that, people who came in from the private sector get no credit for time worked whereas civil servants, even those coming through the the open competitions do. This has financial implications for recruiting from the private sector.

The_Conductor wrote: »

There were no promotions and no recruitment for most of the last 15 years- now the pre-existing staff are being made felt like they're commodities and of little value other than in positions akin to their current posts.......

This is not unique to the public sector.

The_Conductor wrote: »

I'm not sure if you're in the service or not- but the disillusionment in the civil service- particularly in grades such as IT grades- which were dumbed down to general service grades- is palpable- and now that the economy is getting better- people are actively seeing what their options are elsewhere. I recently met 4 EO ICTs at an interview who I know- none of whom were aware that the others were all being interviewed for the same positions (with one of the major outsourced IT firms). This is the future- if management don't cop on and understand that the biggest asset any company- including the civil service, has is its staff.

There are two issues here. The key one is that the primary body failing to recognise the value of the civil service staff is the wider population of Ireland. It is not, I think, purely a management issue for the civil service although I have no doubt that locally, it probably has ramifications.

The second issue is that the civil service structure is deeply inflexible in terms of responding to demand for its jobs, or the skills it requires. This is causing a problem in IT I think already and it feeds into the difficulty of hiring from the outside too.

The_Conductor wrote: »

The civil service cannot sell itself to prospect employees any longer- predominantly on the basis that its the civil service. It is going to have to fight with other prospective employers- and sell itself to both prospective employees and current employees- if it intends to keep them. Anyone who is any good at all- can earn significantly more and have better employment conditions- pretty much anywhere other than the civil service these days.

This is somewhat debatable I think. The civil service is increasingly attractive to - for example - women with family concerns as while financially it isn't the greatest, it is still one of the more flexible options available.

In terms of civil service renewal, however, it's going to be hard to get younger staff in with the current value proposition. It is too inflexible in terms of progress.

Omnishambles99

Hi guys - question - if you are a serving civil servant (let's say at EO or HEO) and on a salary of mid €40Ks and you get offered an AO position do you go in your current salary and then "Mark time" for a number of years until your years services reaches the relevant point of the AO scale .?

I'm only asking because if I was to accept an AO post now, I would be waiting seven years on the same salary level "off point" - does anyone know is this correct ?

Any thoughts welcomed on this thorny issue!!

Cakerbaker

I started as an AO last year on a mid point, was EO for 8 years. Was told I'll move up this year. Won't be much of a difference this year though with the way my mid point and the next increment fall!

Omnishambles99

Cakerbaker cheers for that ! That's reassuring , while it's obviously good that you wouldn't lose any money when accepting as AO post as a serving civil servant on a wage well half way up the AO scale, it would still be a tad annoying to have to stay on the same money for 5-6 years !!

Cakerbaker

I probably would have taken it anyway as I wasn't too far off the top of the scale other than the long service increments and opportunities for internal promotion were fairly limited. Depending on your years of service you could qualify for extra leave too.

Emmal14

This is somewhat debatable I think. The civil service is increasingly attractive to - for example - women with family concerns as while financially it isn't the greatest, it is still one of the more flexible options available.

In terms of civil service renewal, however, it's going to be hard to get younger staff in with the current value proposition. It is too inflexible in terms of progress.[/quote]

I agree completely. The private sector while better financially does not have the same lifestyle benefits as the civil service. If i get the ao position while i will have to take a pay cut i will gain 4 days a/l and flexi time which for kids (hopefully down the line) is far better.

fly_agaric

The_Conductor wrote: »

I recently met 4 EO ICTs at an interview who I know- none of whom were aware that the others were all being interviewed for the same positions (with one of the major outsourced IT firms). This is the future- if management don't cop on and understand that the biggest asset any company- including the civil service, has is its staff.

.... Anyone who is any good at all- can earn significantly more and have better employment conditions- pretty much anywhere other than the civil service these days.

I wonder though???
Would private sector employers in Ireland (particularly the Irish ones?) have a tendency to think you are useless if you worked in any public sector for more than a couple of years in the same role (especially at the lower to mid level CO up to AO perhaps)? That might well be the case for most current public sector staff given the hiring and promotion freezes, difficulty of transfer etc.
I work in the public sector and really don't know what "real" opinions are on that.

Going on the media from the last few years the message has certainly been pushed that almost everyone working in the public sector is possibly an idiot, certainly a touch lazy, and likely a stick-in-the-mud into the bargain who would not last in the "real world of work"?
[I'm excluding likes of health workers here who are quite undeniably (even to those who don't wish to admit it) in demand in lots of places if willing to leave Ireland - edit maybe IT which you specifically mentioned should be excluded too once staff have kept their knowledge and skills current].

Emmal14

Anybody hear of any movement on the AO panel?