EPA says Volkswagen cheated on emissions with 482,000 diesel cars

Dr_Bill

Could VW customers conceivably claim that they were mis-sold if their car is one of those effected?

Hypothetically if you bought a VW car based on its engine emissions and tax band and then discover its a fudge would it be possible to claim compensation from VW??

Could get a whole lot more interesting I reckon!

Lellostag

Headshot wrote: »

No im referring to the latest developments in Europe here. I have a 142 Seat 1.6 which is supposed to be one of the affected engines so im just curious to know if my car was affected, what would VW do.

I suppose all you can do is to wait for a recall notice, and they'll then do whatever they have to do. It'll no doubt take a couple of years for anything to happen anyway, as an approved fix will need to be devised first, which takes time.

Lellostag

Dr_Bill wrote: »

Could VW customers conceivably claim that they were mis-sold if their car is one of those effected?

Hypothetically if you bought a VW car based on its engine emissions and tax band and then discover its a fudge would it be possible to claim compensation from VW??

Could get a whole lot more interesting I reckon!

No doubt many lawyer is thinking about the same thing!!! :rolleyes:

challengemaster

Dr_Bill wrote: »

Could VW customers conceivably claim that they were mis-sold if their car is one of those effected?

Hypothetically if you bought a VW car based on its engine emissions and tax band and then discover its a fudge would it be possible to claim compensation from VW??

Could get a whole lot more interesting I reckon!

In the US anyway - they love class action lawsuits.

creedp

galwaytt wrote: »

...jeebus, nearly spat out my lunchtime Riesling over my foie gras when I read that: you're telling me you bought a car based on examination of it's NOx values ??

Sorry, not buying it (sic).........

For most people what was/is important is high mpg / L/100km and low Car Tax/Emissions. I don't think in reality too many people if given to option of buying a more expensive car with higher CO2 emissions (and therefore higher VRT/Tax) but lower NOX emissions or a cheaper car with lower CO2 emissions but consequent higher NOX emissions would have opted for the former from an ethical perspective. However, I don't think that viewpoint would stop them joining a class action against VW now .. I mean its terrible that I was hoodwinked into buying a cheaper and more efficient car ..

Tea 1000

vintagevrs wrote: »

The car is still the same car but this may very well have an impact on VW residuals if the brand takes a knock like this. People will be wary of buying VW because of a fear of the unknown reaction of the market. I too bought a Golf recently, and this is not going to help it's resale. Hopefully it will have zero impact.

It will have zero impact. Although the dealer might tell you different at trade in in order to get a few more bob off you!!
People will always want Golfs, even if they start eating baby seals!!

Headshot wrote: »

No im referring to the latest developments in Europe here. I have a 142 Seat 1.6 which is supposed to be one of the affected engines so im just curious to know if my car was affected, what would VW do.

They'll do nothing. You won't have to do anything either. Relax. The world will get over this in a week. Europe will manage, the US will go to town because it suits them to, VW will pay, and others likely also, but ultimately international trade agreements and Dow Jones et al will need to be kept steady, because that's what the big wigs want, and that's what'll happen.

Dr_Bill wrote: »

Could VW customers conceivably claim that they were mis-sold if their car is one of those effected?

Hypothetically if you bought a VW car based on its engine emissions and tax band and then discover its a fudge would it be possible to claim compensation from VW??

Could get a whole lot more interesting I reckon!

No, because the Irish Government won't retest your car to see the new CO2 levels and re-categorise it. And if they don't do that, then you won't be out of pocket. And if you are not out of pocket, then VW owe you nothing.

challengemaster

Stallingrad

What if Coke had underplayed the sugar contents in it's product by 40%, or fat in milk by the same amount, or lead in our water, people would be up in arms and rightly so. The principle is the same, it is blatant deception, corporate greed and arrogance at the highest level. We already have to tolerate hopelessly optimistic mpg figure from car companies, now they have been caught. Payback time, let the hammer of justice fall!

Tea 1000

Stallingrad wrote: »

What if Coke had underplayed the sugar contents in it's product by 40%, or fat in milk by the same amount, or lead in our water, people would be up in arms and rightly so. The principle is the same, it is blatant deception, corporate greed and arrogance at the highest level. We already have to tolerate hopelessly optimistic mpg figure from car companies, now they have been caught. Payback time, let the hammer of justice fall!

What is the hammer of justice though? Big fines for some American who'll happily take them?
What actually should happen is that for the next x years, all VW cars must have to meet 20% lower emissions than the standard. At least that would off-set the over emitting cars from the past.
A fine will do nothing for the environment.

dr.fuzzenstein

Stallingrad wrote: »

What if Coke had underplayed the sugar contents in it's product by 40%, or fat in milk by the same amount, or lead in our water, people would be up in arms and rightly so. The principle is the same, it is blatant deception, corporate greed and arrogance at the highest level. We already have to tolerate hopelessly optimistic mpg figure from car companies, now they have been caught. Payback time, let the hammer of justice fall!

There is lead in the water and after a bit of "it's terrible, that's what it is indeed, terrible, couldn't have said it better myself" it went back to Meh.
Same with radon, the A&E crisis, being sold down the crapper by the banks, FF ruining the country, all those things are quite a lot worse.
There will be a bit of "Rabble Rabble!", maybe some inquires so politicians can piss a few more millions away and finally: Meh.

Joe 90

galwaytt wrote: »

Sorry for the hijack - why not just build a house that doesn't need a boiler in the first place - it's not that difficult........

Which is exactly what I would do if building from scratch.:)

Poulgorm

Out of curiosity, I tried to go into the VW USA site, to see what they had up there.

The first thing you must do is enter a valid Zip code. But it won't allow you enter one! So, you can't access the site.

Interesting.

NIMAN

So let me get this straight, when VW had a car that was able to get as low as 99g /km, that figure was only achieved in the test through cheating?

If so, then other car manufacturers also have those sorts of figures (and less) for their lowest emitting cars.

Either they have found a way to produce a cleaner engine than an incredibly powerful, experienced and smart car company or else they are all cheating too.

I know which option my money is on.

Oafley Jones

Poulgorm wrote: »

Out of curiosity, I tried to go into the VW USA site, to see what they had up there.

The first thing you must do is enter a valid Zip code. But it won't allow you enter one! So, you can't access the site.

Interesting.

Worked for me. Beverly Hills 90210 deserves credit for teaching the whole world a no look up solution for these type of sites.

mickdw

NIMAN wrote: »

So let me get this straight, when VW had a car that was able to get as low as 99g /km, that figure was only achieved in the test through cheating?

If so, then other car manufacturers also have those sorts of figures (and less) for their lowest emitting cars.

Either they have found a way to produce a cleaner engine than an incredibly powerful, experienced and smart car company or else they are all cheating too.

I know which option my money is on.

Its not as clear cut as that but I would say this type of cheating had a bearing on how much emissions equipment needs to be fitted. This has a knock on effect on cost of production, running costs and reliability.
I guess this fiasco goes some way to explaining why some manufacturers need ad blue treatment and others don't.
Surely the test program undertaken is also at fault here.
Design a test that actually measures emission under proper driving condition and there is no issue.

dashcamdanny

Dr_Bill wrote: »

Could VW customers conceivably claim that they were mis-sold if their car is one of those effected?

Hypothetically if you bought a VW car based on its engine emissions and tax band and then discover its a fudge would it be possible to claim compensation from VW??

Could get a whole lot more interesting I reckon!

I was thinking the same.

The dealer said I would get 70 MPG on my TSI no problem with a C02 similar to that of a hybrid.

I get 49MPG and with all the **** now hitting the fan, its only a matter of time before they start testing the real emissions of the whole range.

zwind

It's interesting how VW can fix this.

class lawsuite seems unavoidable even after they fix it.


VW's fix Option 1 -> same hp, fuel consumption increase -> more CO2 -> VRT cheating ,false advertising about the mgp -> class lawsuite


VW's fix Option 2 -> same fuel consumption, lesser hp -> false advertising -> class lawsuite

Joe 90

NIMAN wrote: »

So let me get this straight, when VW had a car that was able to get as low as 99g /km, that figure was only achieved in the test through cheating?

If so, then other car manufacturers also have those sorts of figures (and less) for their lowest emitting cars.

Either they have found a way to produce a cleaner engine than an incredibly powerful, experienced and smart car company or else they are all cheating too.

I know which option my money is on.

I don't think any bookie would take your money.

Stallingrad

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

There is lead in the water and after a bit of "it's terrible, that's what it is indeed, terrible, couldn't have said it better myself" it went back to Meh.
Same with radon, the A&E crisis, being sold down the crapper by the banks, FF ruining the country, all those things are quite a lot worse.
There will be a bit of "Rabble Rabble!", maybe some inquires so politicians can piss a few more millions away and finally: Meh.

I doubt the large automakers are indulging in your apparent sense of apathy. It's once again about accountability. €20 billion off the share price with more to come, €18 billion in fines looming, who knows what other class action and private litigation. The defeat device was motivated by greed and profit, so the costs coming down the line will hurt them where they feel it hardest, and possibly dissuade other large multinationals from thinking they too are above the law. This will go down as one of the stupidest acts in corporate is history, and the damage to VW both financially and as a brand is almost immeasurable. Meh?

Going Forward

two wheels good wrote: »

As I understand it the ECU detects the test conditions - rear wheels stationary, two contstant RPM ranges for a certain period, airbags turned off. So no need to change ECU. Just an extra software programme in every ECU.

Some reports mentions urea (as in a mini Bluetec systems ) being injected into exhaust. But this would be visible so I'm a bit puzzled/sceptical of this point

I've read speculation that as part of the "fix" a large urea tank will have to be fitted to cope with the quantities required to achieve required emissions for normal driving as opposed to the few minutes of the test!!

NIMAN

dashcamdanny wrote: »

I was thinking the same.

The dealer said I would get 70 MPG on my TSI no problem with a C02 similar to that of a hybrid.

I get 49MPG and with all the **** now hitting the fan, its only a matter of time before they start testing the real emissions of the whole range.

To be honest, you're doing well to get 49 in a petrol car.

I don't think you can blame vw because you believed a lie from your dealer. I don't think I've ever seen a petrol cars mpg listed as high as 70. That's diesel territory.

And most people take promised mpg with a large pinch of salt. These figures are achieved by the manufacturer, but in a car with all excess weight taken out, and in a control environment at a constant speed. Your day to day driving will never achieve these figures, never.

Several questions come to mind

1) will this just be confined to The VAG family ? ie will we see other manufacturers have fudged figures and tests.

2) why do people think they are eligible for a refund/compensation, whatever about wildly over exaggerated MPG figures, this is in relation to emissions something the owner is NOT paying for.

yes it'll devastate VW and will most likely put them on their knee financially hopefully as a result car makers will become more honest and the regulators will insist that ACTUAL figures for co2, nox and MPG are only allowed to be used for marketing not figures from LA LA land.

Manic Moran

Damien360 wrote: »

I am here is California for training for a few weeks and as you would expect it is big news.

The US take on this from US colleagues, news daily :

The VW with that engine is now technically illegal to drive anywhere in the state of california and the locals, even the very smart ones, are worried they could get pulled by the cops for this, however unlikely we laugh at that notion.

What? No. This is not true. Well, it may be true that they are worried, but their argument is not substantiated. (Both I and my assistant drive brand new VW diesels, so we're paying close attention). CA may refuse to renew registration until the car is fixed. That policy takes effect six months after the recall order is issued by VW. Until then, the car is perfectly legal to drive.

BigEejit

Dont know if this was posted already, but this is exactly how VW were caught ....

https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/214730-how-independent-researchers-tracked-down-vws-diesel-software-hacks

Thats some serious testing kit in the boot of the VW.

Special Circumstances

Going Forward wrote: »

I've read speculation that as part of the "fix" a large urea tank will have to be fitted to cope with the quantities required to achieve required emissions for normal driving as opposed to the few minutes of the test!!

Hahaha a big tank of piss in your clean diesel. I can't see them lapping that up stateside.

Sitec

http://www.theicct.org/sites/default/files/publications/WVU_LDDV_in-use_ICCT_Report_Final_may2014.pdf

^^ The actual report that has Volkswagen in this predicament.

pippip

^Some light bedtime reading.....pop quiz in the morning folks!

Sitec

pippip wrote: »

^Some light bedtime reading.....pop quiz in the morning folks!

^:pac:

If you just read the conclusion @ the end it's not too bad. The apparatus used for collecting/testing the emissions looks fairly rough!

Markcheese

Does the add blue stuff get added to the exhaust fumes - or squirted into the fuel ?
If it just gets squirted into the fuel could Vw just give affected drivers a free supply of little fuel additive bottles - to add when they fuel up ?
Or is that a bit too simple -

everlast75

the only way a law suit can succeed is if the proposed Plaintiff can prove a loss.

I can only see that in two ways

1) MPG is not true - everyone knows that the manufacturer's claims re MPG are more optimistic than fact. However, anyone can test this figure and if anyone had an issue they would have taken it up with VW by now. Its a bit late going back to them after months of driving and complaining about something which you didn't have an issue with and could have checked yourself

2) Tax ramifications regarding the emissions. If they car has to go up a tax bracket (can't see it going up more than one) then the purchaser has a right to claim that money back from VW, as they expected to pay X amount for their road tax. Will that have huge financial ramifications - I doubt it.