EPA says Volkswagen cheated on emissions with 482,000 diesel cars

John T Carroll

tippman1 wrote: »

Switzerland Bans VW Car Sales Over Emissions.

http://news.sky.com/story/1559195/switzerland-bans-vw-car-sales-over-emissions

Euro 6 VW Diesels are not banned there?.

Wibbs

everlast75 wrote: »

True - but there are cover ups involving a few other manufacturers that are known of and probably plenty more besides. And this cover up isn't life threatening.

In my view, if it doesn't hit people in their pockets and it didn't put their lives at stake, then again I'd say that it blown all out of proportion.

+1. You can be sure VW aren't the only ones fibbing. It reminds me of the security issue around BMW's a couple of years ago, where the scumbags could clone a key more quickly than a BMW dealer could and drive away with your expensive Beemer. BMW took ages to admit this was an issue, even with all the evidence going around, but when they did they also noted that the security issue was a problem not just for BMW. Anyhoo, these days who even considers that "scandal" when buying a new Beemer?

As for diesel itself? As Dr F points out the vans, trucks and buses etc ain't gonna go petrol any time soon, even if diesel car sales take a hit from this and like him I suspect the hit diesel cars take will be a small and temporary one.

dr.fuzzenstein

jimgoose wrote: »

As something of a petrol fanboy myself, I would nevertheless love an old automatic Mercedes 300D estate.

I think I found one for you:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilj7jqJuZgQ

Not estate, but me likey!

OK, here's an estate. It's kinda wrong to see an old Merc do this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24afjVqm2Uw

Even if the sale of diesel cars was completely banned worldwide, the scene would go on and they will build faster and dirtier cars than ever before.

Marcusm

Wibbs wrote: »

+1. You can be sure VW aren't the only ones fibbing. It reminds me of the security issue around BMW's a couple of years ago, where the scumbags could clone a key more quickly than a BMW dealer could and drive away with your expensive Beemer. BMW took ages to admit this was an issue, even with all the evidence going around, but when they did they also noted that the security issue was a problem not just for BMW. Anyhoo, these days who even considers that "scandal" when buying a new Beemer?

As for diesel itself? As Dr F points out the vans, trucks and buses etc ain't gonna go petrol any time soon, even if diesel car sales take a hit from this and like him I suspect the hit diesel cars take will be a small and temporary one.

To be fair, there's a world of difference between fitting a car access component likely to be sourced from a common manufacturer and deliberately inserting some lines of code whose sole function is to ensure that a false result is given when compared to normal engine management. In reality, it's little different from fitting a dummy DPF and suggesting that the car has a real one. There is a level of misfeasance which is hard to credit.

As regards diesel trucks and buses, these have, for years, incorporated urea technologies (such as Adblue) to scrub NOx particulates as have now been incorporated in CERTAIN Euro 6 diesels to meet quality control standards. Others rely on engine management to limit NOx which is predominantly a local impact. Over time I would expect to see non Euro 6 diesels being excluded from built up area as.

Wibbs

Oh they were taking the piss M, no doubt about that, but I was agreeing with Dr F and doubting it will have that much of an impact on diesel car sales.

dr.fuzzenstein

Marcusm wrote: »

To be fair, there's a world of difference between fitting a car access component likely to be sourced from a common manufacturer and deliberately inserting some lines of code whose sole function is to ensure that a false result is given when compared to normal engine management. In reality, it's little different from fitting a dummy DPF and suggesting that the car has a real one. There is a level of misfeasance which is hard to credit.

As regards diesel trucks and buses, these have, for years, incorporated urea technologies (such as Adblue) to scrub NOx particulates as have now been incorporated in CERTAIN Euro 6 diesels to meet quality control standards. Others rely on engine management to limit NOx which is predominantly a local impact. Over time I would expect to see non Euro 6 diesels being excluded from built up area as.

Not just diesels. In Germany older petrols and diesel are already excluded from "Umweltzonen", environmental zones, mostly city centers.
So for the 485th time, it's not just diesels. petrols are not white than the driven snow, if regulations for diesel will get stricter, the ones for petrol will too.
If you think you can take your 20 year old Dreckschleuder into town because it's petrol, you will be surprised. In future only hybrid, electric or public transport will be allowed.
I guess deliveries to shops will be made by magic fairy...

To say diesel's days are numbered and to say petrol will be grand forever, your current age is 1 day, no?

vectra

Seems like my one escaped this

Dr. Herbert Diess, CEO of the Volkswagen Passenger Cars brand, explains: "We are working at full speed on a solution."


In the press release dated September 22, 2015, the Volkswagen Group announced that Volkswagen Group vehicles worldwide are affected by the current issues regarding emissions.

The internal evaluation revealed that approximately five million Volkswagen Passenger Cars brand vehicles are affected worldwide. Certain models and model years of these vehicles (such as the sixth generation Volkswagen Golf, the seventh generation Volkswagen Passat and the first generation Volkswagen Tiguan) are equipped exclusively with type EA 189 diesel engines.

As previously announced, all new Volkswagen Passenger Car brand vehicles that fulfill the EU6 norm valid throughout Europe are not affected. This therefore also includes the current Golf, Passat and Touran models.

Dr. Herbert Diess, CEO of the Volkswagen Passenger Cars brand stressed: "We are working at full speed on a technical solution that we will present to partners, to our customers and to the public as swiftly as possible. Our aim is to inform our customers as quickly as possible, so that their vehicles comply fully with regulations. I assure you that Volkswagen will do everything humanly possible to win back the trust of our customers, the dealerships and the public."

The Volkswagen Passenger Cars brand will inform all markets worldwide how many of vehicles are affected locally. We are working intensively on remedial measures in close coordination with the certification authorities. The vehicles are and remain technically safe and roadworthy.

alias no.9

Wibbs wrote: »

Oh they were taking the piss M, no doubt about that, but I was agreeing with Dr F and doubting it will have that much of an impact on diesel car sales.

If they can't stay within the NOx emissions limit without reducing the power output and increasing consumption / CO2 output (higher VRT, motor tax and running costs), there may not be any demand for them.

jimgoose

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

...OK, here's an estate. It's kinda wrong to see an old Merc do this:...

That is... strangely beautiful. <SNIFF>

dr.fuzzenstein

jimgoose wrote: »

That is... strangely beautiful. <SNIFF>

Somehow it looks like a granny doing parcours in drag.

jimgoose

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

...In future only hybrid, electric or public transport will be allowed...

Good. City-centres are a load of Lederhosen.

dr.fuzzenstein

jimgoose wrote: »

Good. City-centres are a load of Lederhosen.

In Bavaria being referred to as Krachlederne. That's when they've gone shiny from age and usage.

jimgoose

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

In Bavaria being referred to as Krachlederne. That's when they've gone shiny from age and usage.

I hear that. Tell me about it!

mikeecho

Was anyone really surprised to hear about sw being used to manipulate the nox readings.

I thought it was one of the industries badly kept secrets, much like the mpg tests, where they strip the car of ann alternator, wing mirrors, tape up the gaps etc.

dr.fuzzenstein

mikeecho wrote: »

Was anyone really surprised to hear about sw being used to manipulate the nox readings.

I thought it was one of the industries badly kept secrets, much like the mpg tests, where they strip the car of ann alternator, wing mirrors, tape up the gaps etc.

It's mock surprise and carefully studied outrage. This piece of news is along the lines of "Dog bites man". It's just the usual diesel haters jumping up and down at any excuse.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjbPi00k_ME

This scene from Casablance describes perfectly what is currently going on.

Marcusm

Wibbs wrote: »

Oh they were taking the piss M, no doubt about that, but I was agreeing with Dr F and doubting it will have that much of an impact on diesel car sales.

I disagree; the move to diesel over the past 10 years was driven by stupidity especially for urban dwellers. I can't see many of the TDi Polo driving grannies using AdBlue etc. I think there will be a gradual realisation that diesel has a strong place in the car mix in Ireland and across Europe but not at the 70-80% level it has reached in recent years. It is simply not the appropriate fuel for that portion of the car owning public. Add up the extra purchase and servicing coats of many together with issues like blocked dpfs and I think that sales should normalise.
There is a particular residual value problem for the cars affected by this. There certainly will not be a VW premium attached to them. Whether they can sustain it for new sales of Euro 6, it will be interesting to see. If this had occurred before the requirement for Euro 6 or if those cars are/were effected, I would expect their lawyers would already have stopped them from delivering any further cars as they would be much more exposed to criminal sanctions (for fraud). They're lucky it didn't come out last year.

Seth Brundle

Not sure if people have seen this...

How Smog Cops Busted Volkswagen and Brought Down Its CEO

dr.fuzzenstein

Marcusm wrote: »

I disagree; the move to diesel over the past 10 years was driven by stupidity especially for urban dwellers. I can't see many of the TDi Polo driving grannies using AdBlue etc. I think there will be a gradual realisation that diesel has a strong place in the car mix in Ireland and across Europe but not at the 70-80% level it has reached in recent years. It is simply not the appropriate fuel for that portion of the car owning public. Add up the extra purchase and servicing coats of many together with issues like blocked dpfs and I think that sales should normalise.
There is a particular residual value problem for the cars affected by this. There certainly will not be a VW premium attached to them. Whether they can sustain it for new sales of Euro 6, it will be interesting to see. If this had occurred before the requirement for Euro 6 or if those cars are/were effected, I would expect their lawyers would already have stopped them from delivering any further cars as they would be much more exposed to criminal sanctions (for fraud). They're lucky it didn't come out last year.

All this is great news for long distance commute diesel hounds such as myself.
I absolutely agree that a great many people bought diesel cars that had no business owning them.It all started with environmentalists saying "Forget all the other crap, CO2 is the one and ONLY thing we care about!". Politicians then stepped in and said "I can be popular AND look like I'm doing something for the environment!" and Joe Public said "If there's an incentive, I would be stupid NOT to take it!".
If diesel becomes less popular due to perceived higher maintenance costs (which I have yet to see materialise with my own car), people who genuinely need a diesel and know how to use and service one, will see a cheap second hand car bonanza.
The current fleet will be very popualr with the right crowd and will be with us for the next 15-20 years.
All in all, this will keep me "rolling coal" for quite some time to come.
Personally delighted.
I'd say the most popular ones will be first half of the 00's, before DPF's. DMF's aren't as bad as everyone thinks (good for 250k km on mine), injectors, pums and turbos are a hell of a lot cheaper to refurbish if you know what you're doing and can swap the bits yourself, so for example a €2k bill for replacing a knackered turbo shrinks to €4-500.
Service costs? What service costs!

Skylinehead

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Service costs? What service costs!

Blood and tears :pac:

Odyssey 2005

Switzerland has banned the sale of some VW diesel engined cars. The crap is about to hit the fan.....:)

Fiskar

Odyssey 2005 wrote: »

Switzerland has banned the sale of some VW diesel engined cars. The crap is about to hit the fan.....:)

As expected, diesel's day is finally done, it will take too much moulah, time and reputational risk to win back the majority of drivers, except those that do the mileage.
Expect to see diesel fuel prices to rise higher than petrol here in the next few months.

Seth Brundle

Claims Cameron delayed emission limits on Merkel request

Irish Times wrote:

Former Liberal Democrat transport minister Norman Baker has claimed David Cameron delayed imposing new emission limits following a personal request from German Chancellor Angela Merkel in order to protect the German motor industry.

Marcusm

Fiskar wrote: »

As expected, diesel's day is finally done, it will take too much moulah, time and reputational risk to win back the majority of drivers, except those that do the mileage.
Expect to see diesel fuel prices to rise higher than petrol here in the next few months.

I'm afraid that you very much misunderstand the economics determining the price of diesel. In Ireland it's cheaper than petrol because of tax policy. In the UK it has become cheaper than petrol this summer because of the opening of new Saudi refineries - Saudi oil is heavier sulphurous crude with a greater weighting towards diesel/kerosene production. Usually diesel prices rise in the Autumn due to more use for home heating oil. Those new Saudi refineries have disrupted the supply/demand balance meaning there is unlikely to be a significant rise.

Likewise, given predetermined levels of production, a fall off in diesel demand due to a change I driver preferences would likely lead to a further fall not rise in price.

In other words, there is nothing backing up your opinion!

And this is from someone with 20 cylinders and 10 litres of diesel free motors!

colm_mcm

kbannon wrote: »

Claims Cameron delayed emission limits on Merkel request

I think I heard on prime time that she rang Enda Kenny too.

Fiskar

Marcusm wrote: »

I'm afraid that you very much misunderstand the economics determining the price of diesel. In Ireland it's cheaper than petrol because of tax policy. In the UK it has become cheaper than petrol this summer because of the opening of new Saudi refineries - Saudi oil is heavier sulphurous crude with a greater weighting towards diesel/kerosene production. Usually diesel prices rise in the Autumn due to more use for home heating oil. Those new Saudi refineries have disrupted the supply/demand balance meaning there is unlikely to be a significant rise.

Likewise, given predetermined levels of production, a fall off in diesel demand due to a change I driver preferences would likely lead to a further fall not rise in price.

In other words, there is nothing backing up your opinion!

And this is from someone with 20 cylinders and 10 litres of diesel free motors!

Logic says it will go higher in price which it did in 2007 - 2008 with no explanation. It will get hammered from this point on, same as cigarettes.

While logic you have provided suggests otherwise I beg to differ, diesels time is done and I don't see VW trying to rescue it. it will go electric hybrid and walk away from diesel. Less diesel cars means ...........

R.O.R

Fiskar wrote: »

Logic says it will go higher in price which it did in 2007 - 2008 with no explanation. It will get hammered from this point on, same as cigarettes.

While logic you have provided suggests otherwise I beg to differ, diesels time is done and I don't see VW trying to rescue it. it will go electric hybrid and walk away from diesel. Less diesel cars means ...........

More unfiltered Petrol cars, giving emissions that are worse to human health than a modern diesel?

Markcheese

Weren't diesel already on the way out anyway ( for cars anyway) -sure I'd heard several European makers weren't developing a next generation diesel-because of emission standards and increasing complexity of the engines-
Not sure what's supposed to fuel light commercials though -

jimgoose

colm_mcm wrote: »

I think I heard on prime time that she rang Enda Kenny too.

This sh1t-business just gets better and better.

jimgoose

R.O.R wrote: »

More unfiltered Petrol cars, giving emissions that are worse to human health than a modern diesel?

Picture it, Winston. The healthy, benzine bouquet of a 1991 Opel Omega V6 stuck on cold-enrichment, burbling down the main street. Forever!

dr.fuzzenstein

Fiskar wrote: »

As expected, diesel's day is finally done, it will take too much moulah, time and reputational risk to win back the majority of drivers, except those that do the mileage.
Expect to see diesel fuel prices to rise higher than petrol here in the next few months.

Bo*****s.