EPA says Volkswagen cheated on emissions with 482,000 diesel cars

FortySeven

dashcamdanny wrote: »

This would be a good time to buy shares in VW as a long term investment I reckon. Bargain share prices ..

http://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=VOW.DE+Interactive#{"range":"5d","allowChartStacking":true}

Waiting to see what other manufacturers are implicated first. If VAG stand alone there couild be more downside to come, down 10% the last two days still and the market in general looking hellish shaky. Catching this knife is going to be tricky. If other manufacturers join court then VW will come through this, if not, all bets are off on this stock.

dr.fuzzenstein

FortySeven wrote: »

Waiting to see what other manufacturers are implicated first. If VAG stand alone there couild be more downside to come, down 10% the last two days still and the market in general looking hellish shaky. Catching this knife is going to be tricky. If other manufacturers join court then VW will come through this, if not, all bets are off on this stock.

I would not be surprised if other manufacturers are frantically wiping computers, re-writing internal reports, greasing palms and otherwise are covering their own cheatware as we speak. (or write)

micks_address

Sorry if already asked but for Irish cars would the co2 have been understated so would have resulted in cheaper car tax? What would the correct readings put the tax rate to?

Going Forward

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

I would not be surprised if other manufacturers are frantically wiping computers, re-writing internal reports, greasing palms and otherwise are covering their own cheatware as we speak. (or write)

Their lack of opportunistic advertising anywhere over VW's travails would make one very suspicious;).

dr.fuzzenstein

Going Forward wrote: »

Their lack of opportunistic advertising anywhere over VW's travails would make one very suspicious;).

very definite huddling of turkeys in the corner of the cage there...

Special Circumstances

Going Forward wrote: »

Their lack of opportunistic advertising anywhere over VW's travails would make one very suspicious;).

I did see a clever ad from nissan for the leaf.

"Zero emissions, zero OMISSIONS"

dr.fuzzenstein

Special Circumstances wrote: »

I did see a clever ad from nissan for the leaf.

"Zero emissions, zero OMISSIONS"

Until we hear about the batteries and the orphan's hearts and livers...:pac:

BoatMad

micks_address wrote: »

Sorry if already asked but for Irish cars would the co2 have been understated so would have resulted in cheaper car tax? What would the correct readings put the tax rate to?

The issue is about NOX emissions not CO2. NOX standards in California are higher then Europe.

knifey_spoonie

This is very much worth a read

Just one small paragraph from the above linked

On average, two-thirds of the gains claimed to have been made since 2008 when car regulations were introduced have been delivered through manipulating tests with only 13.3 g/km of real progress on the roads set against 22.2 g/km of ‘hot air’. Without exploiting test flexibilities only Toyota would have met its 2015 target whereas on paper all the major carmakers have comfortably achieved their limits

colm_mcm

Re that passage, was that because Toyota are selling more hybrids?

Markcheese

dashcamdanny wrote: »

This would be a good time to buy shares in VW as a long term investment I reckon. Bargain share prices ..

http://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=VOW.DE+Interactive#{"range":"5d","allowChartStacking":true}

As long as they don't go into recievership and refinance after -

Markcheese

BoatMad wrote: »

The issue is about NOX emissions not CO2. NOX standards in California are higher then Europe.

But what about the cheat software in Europe - what did it do ?
Also when they "fix" the software to sort out NOX emmisions (and what ever else) what will that leave the co2 emmisions at - will all those TDI s have to be reclassified for road tax ?

BoatMad

Markcheese wrote: »

But what about the cheat software in Europe - what did it do ?
Also when they "fix" the software to sort out NOX emmisions (and what ever else) what will that leave the co2 emmisions at - will all those TDI s have to be reclassified for road tax ?

There are two different questions tied up in this . It's widely known within the industry , that car companies min max car tests to establish emissions levels. That is they optimise the car to suit the tests. That's not illegal , it's no more illegal then cramming for your leaving cert the night before then forgetting everything the day after.

In Europe the cars pass the emissions evaluation in that way.

This is different from NCT tailpipe type tests , that typically set minimums and often ignores certain pollutants ( it doesn't check NOX for diesels as I understand it )

In the USA. NOX standards are higher, because compliance is easier with petrol engines. However the certification tests are not tailpipe tests, the EPA plugs into the OBD connector. What happens in that case is the software detects the test and in effect outputs " made up data ".

The only way to cause a re- categorisation of cars in Europe would be to change the test parameters. Europe is unlikely to do that as to do so would severely affect it's large car industry.

Right now the cars comply with the European tests as they are currently stated

The fact that on the road , something different happens is entirely another question.

Stallingrad

VW used values of effected cars have fallen 3% in the UK since this broke, will anyone ever trust VW again? The whole ethos of the brand has been blown out of the water.

josip

Only 3%? I would have thought it would be more, especially during the knee jerk phase.
Maybe it will fall further.

BoatMad

Stallingrad wrote: »

VW used values of effected cars have fallen 3% in the UK since this broke, will anyone ever trust VW again? The whole ethos of the brand has been blown out of the water.

a blip, easily forgotten in 6 months

Special Circumstances

They seem to be taking a very long time to come up with the details of what fixes are needed for different markets. Just hoping it will drop off the news radar or just no practical fix?

BoatMad

Special Circumstances wrote: »

They seem to be taking a very long time to come up with the details of what fixes are needed for different markets. Just hoping it will drop off the news radar or just no practical fix?

in the states, I suspect on many models it will mean the addition of Ad blue, not something easily done. I suspect if they could pass the tests with a software change alone, they would have done it a long time ago. You could see either a withdrawal of all such models from the market , which would be a nightmare,, or a very expensive retrofitting of a Urea system, this would take probably a year at least to organise

Not sure anything is required for European markets as they pass the test

CJhaughey

The addition of the Urea injection would have added €300 per car manufacturing cost.

Tea 1000

Stallingrad wrote: »

VW used values of effected cars have fallen 3% in the UK since this broke, will anyone ever trust VW again? The whole ethos of the brand has been blown out of the water.

Look at the flux in opinion polls in this country to see how short people's memories are.

CJhaughey wrote: »

The addition of the Urea injection would have added €300 per car manufacturing cost.

But it'll cost a lot more to retrofit now!!

Stallingrad

Tea 1000 wrote: »

Look at the flux in opinion polls in this country to see how short people's memories are.

No comparison really, if you had to choose between a Mondeo and a Passat every four years you too might vacillate. We have far more choice when it comes to cars than political parties, people won't forget the damage to the brand in a hurry and many will be voting with their wallets.

Tea 1000

Stallingrad wrote: »

No comparison really, if you had to choose between a Mondeo and a Passat every four years you too might vacillate. We have far more choice when it comes to cars than political parties, people won't forget the damage to the brand in a hurry and many will be voting with their wallets.

Some will, most like what they like too much.
This will blow over, and no one really cares.

John T Carroll

CJhaughey wrote: »

The addition of the Urea injection would have added €300 per car manufacturing cost.

And of course they will have to find room somewhere to locate the urinal!.

Stallingrad

VW have been taking the piss from the start.

Manic Moran

BoatMad wrote: »

in the states, I suspect on many models it will mean the addition of Ad blue, not something easily done. I suspect if they could pass the tests with a software change alone, they would have done it a long time ago. You could see either a withdrawal of all such models from the market , which would be a nightmare,, or a very expensive retrofitting of a Urea system, this would take probably a year at least to organise

Not sure anything is required for European markets as they pass the test

Hmm. Near as I can tell, the only reason my Passat is in on this recall is that they retained the software even though the vehicle has an Adblue tank. That said, although the latest VWs may well be able to (generally) fix it with just a software change, it does retain the issue of the earlier models not having Adblue.

BigEejit

Just to highlight what goes on in China with car pollution and tax. China produced more cars last year than America and Japan combined, it is also the worlds largest purchaser of new cars. They do have emission standards but they are well behind euro or American standards (currently on China 4, equivalent to about Euro 4, China 5 which is equivalent to euro 5 roughly starts in 2018).
https://www.dieselnet.com/standards/cn/ld.php
http://transportpolicy.net/index.php?title=Global_Comparison:_Light-duty_Emissions

The big thing though is that they keep old bangers on the road much much longer than we would keep them in western Europe and regular maintenance is rare. I know from experience that the pollution in just about any Chinese city is unbelievably bad, after an hour walk outside the inside of your nose would be black (two cities have separate car pollution limits because pollution was so bad).
Its not all down to transport, they bring online 2 Gigawatts of coal powered power stations per week and are currently using more coal than America, Europe and Japan combined.
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=China_and_coal

The point I'm getting at is that we get screwed for what comes out of the exhaust of our cars and even when we combine all of Europe's, Australia's, Americas and Japan's it really is a drop in the oceans of pollution in China and India and just about all of the rest of the world put out.
Going back to China, over 200 milion cars and until 2012 a Chinese car owner paid between 50 (min) and 90 (max) euros tax per year. Since then it is taxed in relation to engine size (between 8 and 760 euros). There is no yearly check, however iirc they can be pulled over by police if there is visible smoke. Normally this results in a bit of bribery and away goes the smoky car.

Tea 1000

Ya, but there's no point in saying "Ah what's the point, China are still polluting..."
Someone has to start somewhere, and the fact is that Europe and America are first world, and we really can afford it compared to the likes of China, so we must step up. If we don't lead, they won't follow.
And while what you say is true, we still need to enforce the rules to send the message that what VW did was wrong, and there will be severe penalties for it.
The whole thing is flawed to the nth degree, but we have to start somewhere in order to improve.

josip

I don't think China can be tarred with the coal brush as much as it used to be.
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-33143176

http://www.economist.com/news/china/21660164-though-wind-generation-growing-fast-much-remains-wrong-industry-need-weatherman

BoatMad

Manic Moran wrote: »

Hmm. Near as I can tell, the only reason my Passat is in on this recall is that they retained the software even though the vehicle has an Adblue tank. That said, although the latest VWs may well be able to (generally) fix it with just a software change, it does retain the issue of the earlier models not having Adblue.

I'm surprised if this will be fixed with a software upgrade only

BigEejit

josip wrote: »

I don't think China can be tarred with the coal brush as much as it used to be.
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-33143176

http://www.economist.com/news/china/21660164-though-wind-generation-growing-fast-much-remains-wrong-industry-need-weatherman

I doubt that they make 20% of their energy from wind, everywhere I look it says between 70% and 80% comes from coal, and 0.2% coming from renewables.
http://www.energybandgap.com/power-generation/where-does-chinas-energy-come-from/
http://www.worldcoal.org/coal/uses-of-coal/coal-electricity/

I was in ChongQing 2 years ago and the smog was a killer. I had a smokers cough after a few hours. Even in Beijing 20 years ago the smog was bad and that was well before China became the worlds tat factory.