EPA says Volkswagen cheated on emissions with 482,000 diesel cars

CJhaughey

robnet77 wrote: »

they should just give away a bunch of electric cars to compensate for the added pollution...
... and as a customer of a "polluting" car, I would still want some refund considering the lower value of the vehicle I bought, being unaware of the scandal that would burst out.

Electric cars still pollute just not as much at the car end, drive past the midlands moonscapes where peat is industrially extracted and you can see what electricity costs. I don't know the pollution figures from the Power stations that produce the electricity but they are not inconsequential.
Batteries also have an environmental cost as well..

challengemaster

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/manufacturing/governments-demand-tax-refund-over-vw-scandal-1.2373009

Estimated 80,000 Irish owners affected. Irish government essentially waiting to see if CO2 levels change once the updates are applied. If so it seems they're going to issue new licence documents with the correct CO2 figures and demand outstanding VRT and tax owed based on the new rate. From who is the question though.

Atlantic Dawn

challengemaster wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/manufacturing/governments-demand-tax-refund-over-vw-scandal-1.2373009

Estimated 80,000 Irish owners affected. Irish government essentially waiting to see if CO2 levels change once the updates are applied. If so it seems they're going to issue new licence documents with the correct CO2 figures and demand outstanding VRT and tax owed based on the new rate. From who is the question though.

Can't see them implementing this from the car owners, it would be electoral suicide coming up to an election. What they should do is have VW make up the difference each year in what the tax should be from what was paid in one lump sum where a cars life is given as say 12 years or so.

Tea 1000

challengemaster wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/manufacturing/governments-demand-tax-refund-over-vw-scandal-1.2373009

Estimated 80,000 Irish owners affected. Irish government essentially waiting to see if CO2 levels change once the updates are applied. If so it seems they're going to issue new licence documents with the correct CO2 figures and demand outstanding VRT and tax owed based on the new rate. From who is the question though.

Won't be from owners! One thing for sure in Ireland is that a person won't pay any more tax then they are due to pay!!
But personally, I'd recommend VW owners to bin the recall letter.

Dial Hard

Tea 1000 wrote: »

But personally, I'd recommend VW owners to bin the recall letter.

Why?

Imagine trying to sell on a car with one of the affected engines without having gone through the recall process.

It's a no-brainer.

ThisRegard

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

It's rather shocking that VW Ireland still have not given a figure of the cars that have the issue in this country, do they not know what cars they are selling?

Breakdown of VW, Seat, Audi and Skoda is here -
Volkswagen to recall 80,000 cars in Ireland http://jrnl.ie/2362651

pippip

Dial Hard wrote: »

Why?

Imagine trying to sell on a car with one of the affected engines without having gone through the recall process.

It's a no-brainer.

Or you could just say to the buyer "here's one of the original spec cars with the good mpg and bhp with which you are free to avail of the recall should you wish yourself."

dr.fuzzenstein

pippip wrote: »

Or you could just say to the buyer "here's one of the original spec cars with the good mpg and bhp with which you are free to avail of the recall should you wish yourself."

Works for me!
Or maybe do the recall and then do a remap.
But thinking out loud: If it is possible to transfer software onto a computer, it should be also possible to make a backup of said computer beforehand and if the new software proves to be sh*te, restore to previous condition. But maybe not even this level of bother is required. Go to "legitimate" websites and download the pre 2015 OEM standard software.
If it can be done with a phone, it can be done with a car.
I'd say either way, the tuning shops will do good business after this.

Dardania

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Works for me!
Or maybe do the recall and then do a remap.
But thinking out loud: If it is possible to transfer software onto a computer, it should be also possible to make a backup of said computer beforehand and if the new software proves to be sh*te, restore to previous condition. But maybe not even this level of bother is required. Go to "legitimate" websites and download the pre 2015 OEM standard software.
If it can be done with a phone, it can be done with a car.
I'd say either way, the tuning shops will do good business after this.

what happens when the revised NCT catches you?

dr.fuzzenstein

Dardania wrote: »

what happens when the revised NCT catches you?

Catch me how? Emissions or checking the ECU?
I don't think it is illegal do get your car tuned.

edit:
And if the NCT didn't catch VW up to this point (and never would have in a million years), then I don't think that there's maybe more than 2-3 people in this country who could actually tell if a vehicle has the software fiddled with. If that.

Lissavane

challengemaster wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/manufacturing/governments-demand-tax-refund-over-vw-scandal-1.2373009

Estimated 80,000 Irish owners affected. Irish government essentially waiting to see if CO2 levels change once the updates are applied. If so it seems they're going to issue new licence documents with the correct CO2 figures and demand outstanding VRT and tax owed based on the new rate. From who is the question though.

The VW scam is not about CO2, which is not innately poisonous, although excessive amounts contribute to climate change.

It's about Nitrogen oxides or NOx which are poisonous and kill people in the short to medium term.

Dardania

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Catch me how? Emissions or checking the ECU?
I don't think it is illegal do get your car tuned.

edit:
And if the NCT didn't catch VW up to this point (and never would have in a million years), then I don't think that there's maybe more than 2-3 people in this country who could actually tell if a vehicle has the software fiddled with. If that.

emissions. With the increased focus on it, maybe they'll start monitoring more thoroughly now

dr.fuzzenstein

Dardania wrote: »

emissions. With the increased focus on it, maybe they'll start monitoring more thoroughly now

Haven't heard of such plans, any links?

Dardania

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Haven't heard of such plans, any links?

none - pure conjecture. I suspect all of the car testing services globally will be coming under greater scrutiny now, to ensure cars are adequately tested

See these: http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/sep/29/calls-to-toughen-up-australias-vehicle-emissions-guidelines

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/sep/24/vw-scandal-uk-to-rerun-emissions-tests

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/sep/24/uk-france-and-germany-lobbied-for-flawed-car-emissions-tests-documents-reveal

gctest50

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Catch me how? Emissions or checking the ECU?
I don't think it is illegal do get your car tuned.

edit:
And if the NCT didn't catch VW up to this point (and never would have in a million years), then I don't think that there's maybe more than 2-3 people in this country who could actually tell if a vehicle has the software fiddled with. If that.

arra shure all that electrickery is too complicated entirely

B00MSTICK

dr.fuzzenstein wrote:

Works for me!
Or maybe do the recall and then do a remap.
But thinking out loud: If it is possible to transfer software onto a computer, it should be also possible to make a backup of said computer beforehand and if the new software proves to be sh*te, restore to previous condition. But maybe not even this level of bother is required. Go to "legitimate" websites and download the pre 2015 OEM standard software.
If it can be done with a phone, it can be done with a car.
I'd say either way, the tuning shops will do good business after this.

I could be wrong but my understanding is the ECU was programmed with code that detected when the car was being tested and altered the emissions accordingly.

Just guessing but for the recall they may take the ECU reflash/remap it to remove this piece of code - what impact will this have to your car? Your car won't pass the NOx test in California...
Do you expect them to limit the emissions/bhp/mpg with a remap?
Bit late at this stage and then they'll have people complaining they bought a car with X BHP with Y MPG and create another issue entirely.

Headshot

I wonder could you get out of the PCP hire with this **** up by Volkswagon lol

dr.fuzzenstein

Dardania wrote: »

none - pure conjecture. I suspect all of the car testing services globally will be coming under greater scrutiny now, to ensure cars are adequately tested

See these: http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/sep/29/calls-to-toughen-up-australias-vehicle-emissions-guidelines

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/sep/24/vw-scandal-uk-to-rerun-emissions-tests

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/sep/24/uk-france-and-germany-lobbied-for-flawed-car-emissions-tests-documents-reveal

I think this is more about government testing of the model itself, but not so much about the NCT. So that is more official testing to establish what emissions class the car is in.
All three links from the Guardian!

Lissavane

The ultimate result of VW's deception will be a re-evaluation at EU level of the environmental and health effects of diesel use in cars. The EU area seems to be unique in it's love of diesel for private transport.

Expect a major shift in policy towards encouraging petrol hybrid and electric cars.

And remember that the EU is not a democracy. Germany rules.

Lissavane

B00MSTICK wrote: »

I could be wrong but my understanding is the ECU was programmed with code that detected when the car was being tested and altered the emissions accordingly.

Just guessing but for the recall they may take the ECU reflash/remap it to remove this piece of code - what impact will this have to your car? Your car won't pass the NOx test in California...
Do you expect them to limit the emissions/bhp/mpg with a remap?
Bit late at this stage and then they'll have people complaining they bought a car with X BHP with Y MPG and create another issue entirely.

Looks like the recall will involve removing the cheat software, which is only active in test conditions, and fitting a unit which will treat the exhaust gases using urea. It's not clear yet if these modifications will affect the performance or fuel consumption of the car adversely.

It certainly won't help resale value, which is why owners worldwide are queing up to take legal action about it.

Long Time Lurker

VW group pre registered some 250 odd cars on the last day of the month to shore up market share results. Seems the emissions scandal is having an affect already.

mickdw

It wouldnt be the first time they would have pre registered cars though.

5W30

Relevant: https://www.facebook.com/HellaflushRC/videos/842386932544314/

gerardk55

Lissavane wrote: »

It's about Nitrogen oxides or NOx which are poisonous and kill people in the short to medium term.

So how much more NOx are these VAG units producing above and beyond any other diesel engine on the market?

What are the acceptable safety levels for the population etc?

I find it hard to believe that VAG created a diesel engine which uses the same general technology as the rest of the industry yet creates infinitely more NOx than other diesel engines. Obviously it's creating higher levels, otherwise they wouldn't have created the software to hide it, but is it so high that we are all in danger of losing a day off our lives every time a VW Passat passes us?

I'd like to see some comparative values of say the VAG unit and maybe a PSA unit which is quite common.

darragh o meara

Long Time Lurker wrote: »

VW group pre registered some 250 odd cars on the last day of the month to shore up market share results. Seems the emissions scandal is having an affect already.

Ha, yeah I got offered a pre-regged passat today for 4 grand less than new.. 105 kms on the clock

challengemaster

Lissavane wrote: »

The VW scam is not about CO2, which is not innately poisonous, although excessive amounts contribute to climate change.

It's about Nitrogen oxides or NOx which are poisonous and kill people in the short to medium term.

I'd suggest you actually read the link, or even this thread. The emissions as a whole will likely change once the ECU is updated to achieve acceptable NOx levels, lowering MPG and increasing CO2 output.

So yes, while it's not about fooling CO2 tests - as soon as those cars get recalled the CO2 levels which their VRT and tax was/is based on is wrong.

Also you may want to do a bit more reading. Any document I have seen has stated that in extreme cases death is a possibility, but mostly it's that mortality effects are EQUIVALENT to X amounts of deaths. Nobody, as far as I'm aware, has actually died as a direct result of NOx. It's easier to demonstrate this using a report from the Committee on the Medical Effects of Air Pollutants.

The current (2008) burden of anthropogenic particulate matter air pollution is, with some simplifying assumptions, an effect on mortality in 2008 equivalent to nearly 29,000 deaths in the UK at typical ages and an associated loss of total population life of 340,000 life-years. The burden can also be represented as a loss of life expectancy from birth of approximately six months.

Nobody has actually died. It's just a decrease in life expectancy. Of six months. So instead of a life expectancy of 81.5 years, you'd assume it's now 81 years. Apart from it's not - the life expectancy is already calculated using real-world figures - not assumptions. So it has no net result on your life, only you "lose" half a year you never would have lived anyway. Woop-de-fookin-doo.

A policy which aimed to reduce the annual average concentration of PM2.5 by
1 µg/m3 would result in a saving of approximately 4 million life years or an
increase in life expectancy of 20 days in people born in 2008.

Wow. Who doesn't need an extra 20 days (on average) tacked on at the end of their 81.5 year life. That made such a difference.

Furthermore that's an approximation using coefficients that they made up for the relationship between mortality and NOx. Because they actually haven't a clue as to how much an effect it does have.

Since 1980 the amount of NOx pollution has at least halved (EPA figures are 57% decrease). Thats already contributed greatly to an increased life expectancy. Reducing it to zero is only estimated to add another 6 months life expectancy. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, or suggesting we don't continue to improve - I'm just suggesting you critique what you read before regurgitating it as fact. "Killing people in the short to medium term" NOx are not.

This is more propoganda than it is science.

robnet77

CJhaughey wrote: »

Electric cars still pollute just not as much at the car end, drive past the midlands moonscapes where peat is industrially extracted and you can see what electricity costs. I don't know the pollution figures from the Power stations that produce the electricity but they are not inconsequential.
Batteries also have an environmental cost as well..

...in most countries other than China and a few others, EV cars are more eco friendly than petrol/diesel cars, if you factor both manufacturing and car usage over the years.


In Europe EV cars are about 25% greener in average, for example.

BoatMad

There is an incredible amount of misleading commentary around this whole issue, especially about European cars. I heard an interview this morning on rte that was utterly misleading

As I understand it, there are two different issues for VAG. in the US, because of the nature of the way the certification tests are done. VW software falsified the NOX results. This is because the US test is NOT a tail pipe test.

In Europe VAG have admitted that " defeat " software is present in so e models sold here (OMG ) .

BUT , to my understanding , no one has officially said, that VW has failed the certification tests , or that the software was used to do so. VW are guilty of min/maxing the car to pass tests , but then ALL car companies do that.

What the car emits on the road , is an entirely different situation , VW cars for example pass the NCT every day and the ICCT report shows clearly that ALL cars on road emissions are upto 40 % in excess of levels seen in the certification tests , this included for example L/100 km figures etc.

My understanding is in Europe . VW have agreed to recall the affected models to remove the software. Such removal has no effect on the cars performance or emissions.

I know there are investigations to determine if the min/maxing of the European tests could be regarded as cheating , but , the fact is , the testing agencies in Europe know exactly what the car companies are doing and in fact the car companies lobbied to have the tests set up in a certain way.

None of this will affect VW cars on the road in Europe, the fact is they certified according to the tests in Europe ( which are tail pipe tests )

The problem for VAG in the US , is that in places like California , NOX permitted emissions are much stricter then Europe, it's easier to set in the US because of the preponderance of petrol cars there. vAG engines can't easily be made compliant there without either Adding AdBlue systems.

The same is not the case in Europe

BoatMad

robnet77 wrote: »

they should just give away a bunch of electric cars to compensate for the added pollution...
... and as a customer of a "polluting" car, I would still want some refund considering the lower value of the vehicle I bought, being unaware of the scandal that would burst out.

Sorry, this aspect , puzzles me, why should you be compensated in Europe. Why is the vehicle " lower value ". Your car is the same today as it was when you bought it. It passed the European certification tests , tests that don't rely on the OBD Information by the way.

You can argue that's europes tests are weak or ineffectual , but that's nothing specifically to do with VW. That's a whole car industry issue.

alias no.9

gerardk55 wrote: »

So how much more NOx are these VAG units producing above and beyond any other diesel engine on the market?

What are the acceptable safety levels for the population etc?

I find it hard to believe that VAG created a diesel engine which uses the same general technology as the rest of the industry yet creates infinitely more NOx than other diesel engines. Obviously it's creating higher levels, otherwise they wouldn't have created the software to hide it, but is it so high that we are all in danger of losing a day off our lives every time a VW Passat passes us?

I'd like to see some comparative values of say the VAG unit and maybe a PSA unit which is quite common.

VAG persisted with their proprietary Pumpe Duse technology for many years after most makers adopted Common Rail.

They backed the wrong horse and after bringing Pumpe Duse as far as it could go they eventually adopted Common Rail nearly 10 years after most of the rest of the market, they were way behind the curve with the technology and they had reliability issues on their early Common Rail engines.

They were desperately trying to keep pace with the market. All the while VW had been working to get Pumpe Duse to meet the tightening emissions before eventually giving up, the other manufacturers had been working to get their Common Rail engines to meet the same targets.