EPA says Volkswagen cheated on emissions with 482,000 diesel cars

BoatMad

why do people feel concerned, it not even a mandatory recall, you can ignore if you wish

Im stunned by the concern, like concern for what.


hey folks, VW have just confirmed that there is software in your car that detects aliens, they are recalling your car to remove that software

droves of people are concerned that their VW is now devalued as a result


sheeesh.....

Special Circumstances

BoatMad wrote: »

why do people feel concerned, it not even a mandatory recall, you can ignore if you wish

Im stunned by the concern, like concern for what.


hey folks, VW have just confirmed that there is software in your car that detects aliens, they are recalling your car to remove that software

droves of people are concerned that their VW is now devalued as a result


sheeesh.....

Are you calling VAG owners uniformed and a bit naive?

mickdw

Not concerned at all. Parents have car involved and we are quite happy to be honest.
Will be interesting to see how it plays out.

TheBigGreen

My RS Octavia is affected.

reklamos

BoatMad wrote: »

why do people feel concerned, it not even a mandatory recall, you can ignore if you wish

Im stunned by the concern, like concern for what.


hey folks, VW have just confirmed that there is software in your car that detects aliens, they are recalling your car to remove that software

droves of people are concerned that their VW is now devalued as a result


sheeesh.....

Maybe because I've paid for something that I did not get?
Or maybe because I'm environment conscious?

I know it is not mandatory but to get software update I will need to get the car to the garage and use my own time for that and time=money.
Also we do not know how the update will impact the car(fuel consumption, acceleration etc) cause I do not think 'update' will make it better. So that would mean again that the car that I test drive before buying it, is not the same.

It is more or less the same reasons that people got concerned about the horse meat scandal. You can eat horse meat, nobody died from it.

BoatMad

Special Circumstances wrote: »

Are you calling VAG owners uniformed and a bit naive?

..... maybe , ,,,,,, oh ok yes

BoatMad

reklamos wrote: »

Maybe because I've paid for something that I did not get?
Or maybe because I'm environment conscious?

I know it is not mandatory but to get software update I will need to get the car to the garage and use my own time for that and time=money.
Also we do not know how the update will impact the car(fuel consumption, acceleration etc) cause I do not think 'update' will make it better. So that would mean again that the car that I test drive before buying it, is not the same.

It is more or less the same reasons that people got concerned about the horse meat scandal. You can eat horse meat, nobody died from it.

this is whats bugs me

the car is exactly as you bought it , no more or less, it complies with Euro 5 tests , irrespective of what it and every other diesel is actually emitting when you drive in down the road . There is NO requirement in Europe that the car actually conform to the tests on the road , Thats a proposal for 2017 ( if it ever sees the light of day )

The car in europe has passed its Euro 5 tests, no-one has claimed officially that it did not. all VW are doing is removing a piece of software that is doing nothing , in response to a " hue and cry". They are not attempting to fix any " on-road" emissions issues in Europe, nor are they being required to.

SO why would your " consumption or performance be affected "

if you dont to change anything ( i.e. the car is as it was when you bought it) dont do the recall.

mickdw

Id say vw worldwide are getting more than a few rejection letters seeking full refund.
Cars producing up to 40 times reported level of cancer causing substance. It would not need a very good lawyer to build a case around that considering that vw knowingly produced these with the express intention of misleading customers for the sole purpose of profit.

techie

My car is affected by this and I have one question that maybe one of the mechanics here might answer?

We all know at this stage that VW made an algorithm that when the car knows its being tested changed the output so that it had a lower NOX level.

My question is: Is it also likely that this algorithm also lowers the Co2 output too? Hence our cars could go up a Tax Bracket or two :mad:

Oafley Jones

BoatMad wrote: »

this is whats bugs me

the car is exactly as you bought it , no more or less, it complies with Euro 5 tests , irrespective of what it and every other diesel is actually emitting when you drive in down the road . There is NO requirement in Europe that the car actually conform to the tests on the road , Thats a proposal for 2017 ( if it ever sees the light of day )

The car in europe has passed its Euro 5 tests, no-one has claimed officially that it did not. all VW are doing is removing a piece of software that is doing nothing , in response to a " hue and cry". They are not attempting to fix any " on-road" emissions issues in Europe, nor are they being required to.

SO why would your " consumption or performance be affected "

if you dont to change anything ( i.e. the car is as it was when you bought it) dont do the recall.

While I agree with nearly everything you say, you discount that an irrational or misinformed perception of the brand/car does have a real impact when it comes to the cars value. We've a (affected) Superb that we were getting rid off anyway and already seeing reticence from previously interested parties.

BoatMad

mickdw wrote: »

Id say vw worldwide are getting more than a few rejection letters seeking full refund.
Cars producing up to 40 times reported level of cancer causing substance. It would not need a very good lawyer to build a case around that considering that vw knowingly produced these with the express intention of misleading customers for the sole purpose of profit.

Sheesh , then every small diesel will be withdrawn from the road.

today it is not illegal in Europe for the car to emit whatever NOX levels it does, as ling as it passed the Euro 5 tests without any " unofficial " cheating ( theres lots of " official cheating ") .

To my knowledge No-one has declared that VW failed the NEDC ( New European Driving Cycle ) tests. It has clearly been the case that these lab tests can be " gamed " in various ways and in Europe thats not illegal per se.

what they produce on the road is quite irrelevant, since the tests do not stipulate that in any case

BoatMad

Oafley Jones wrote: »

While I agree with nearly everything you say, you discount that an irrational or misinformed perception of the brand/car does have a real impact when it comes to the cars value. We've a (affected) Superb that we were getting rid off anyway and already seeing reticence from previously interested parties.

I have a particle beam, flux capacitor based " defeat software " removal service. I can issue star fleet approved removal certificates with an added bonus that the alien detection software will also be neutralised

as a bonus for this month, I also remove the " detect infra red radio station software " that VW has cunningly hidden in your radio

The only thing affected is your wallet €300 for my 10 minute rapid service ,

Irish_rat

I'd say the SP has a long way to go yet.

5W30

techie wrote: »

My car is affected by this and I have one question that maybe one of the mechanics here might answer?

We all know at this stage that VW made an algorithm that when the car knows its being tested changed the output so that it had a lower NOX level.

My question is: Is it also likely that this algorithm also lowers the Co2 output too? Hence our cars could go up a Tax Bracket or two :mad:

We won't know until the cars are tested before and after the software patch :P

dr.fuzzenstein

BoatMad wrote: »

I have a particle beam, flux capacitor based " defeat software " removal service. I can issue star fleet approved removal certificates with an added bonus that the alien detection software will also be neutralised

as a bonus for this month, I also remove the " detect infra red radio station software " that VW has cunningly hidden in your radio

https://www.donedeal.ie/cars-for-sale/bmw-5-series-2-5-litre-petrol/10430311 only thing affected is your wallet €300 for my 10 minute rapid service ,

I can understand how Mary buying one of the affected cars will want to know it was "fixed", i. e. it went down to VW, they waved a wand and said "emissionus cheaticus disappearicus!". So now the car is "fixed" vs one that isn't, which is therefore broken, useless and worthless.
You can give Mary all the explanations in the world, its no use.
If you are a software engineer and you personally rewrote the entire code from scratch it won't be good enough for Mary. The only thing that will sell you VW in the future is if it has been brought to VW and "fixed".
We all know what you mean, you've explained it very well, but I'm afraid its all of no use to Mary.

mickdw

BoatMad wrote: »

Sheesh , then every small diesel will be withdrawn from the road.

today it is not illegal in Europe for the car to emit whatever NOX levels it does, as ling as it passed the Euro 5 tests without any " unofficial " cheating ( theres lots of " official cheating ") .

To my knowledge No-one has declared that VW failed the NEDC ( New European Driving Cycle ) tests. It has clearly been the case that these lab tests can be " gamed " in various ways and in Europe thats not illegal per se.

what they produce on the road is quite irrelevant, since the tests do not stipulate that in any case

You are taking a very narrow view of this.
Surely considering the race to lower co2 here in Europe, and considering the fact that the cheat stayed in the cars for Europe, it is pretty clear to me that a detuning device could very easily be set up to reduce co2 on the test cycle for all the obvious reasons.

jimgoose

mickdw wrote: »

You are taking a very narrow view of this.
Surely considering the race to lower co2 here in Europe, and considering the fact that the cheat stayed in the cars for Europe, it is pretty clear to me that a detuning device could very easily be set up to reduce co2 on the test cycle for all the obvious reasons.

I had assumed, quietly, that they were doing that as well. I mean you would, wouldn't you? A quick "public static void FinagleInjectorMap (&testJurisdiction)" and bish-bash-Bosch!

John T Carroll

mickdw wrote: »

You are taking a very narrow view of this.
Surely considering the race to lower co2 here in Europe, and considering the fact that the cheat stayed in the cars for Europe, it is pretty clear to me that a detuning device could very easily be set up to reduce co2 on the test cycle for all the obvious reasons.

Extract from the Irish website "With immediate effect, all customers in Ireland of Volkswagen, Audi, Skoda, Seat and Volkswagen Commercial Vehicles can check on this website for themselves whether the emissions characteristics of their vehicles need to be corrected. This website also features additional information and questions and answers concerning the topic. " you can read what you like from that.

BoatMad

mickdw wrote: »

You are taking a very narrow view of this.
Surely considering the race to lower co2 here in Europe, and considering the fact that the cheat stayed in the cars for Europe, it is pretty clear to me that a detuning device could very easily be set up to reduce co2 on the test cycle for all the obvious reasons.

People consistently have failed to understand how C02 and NOX levels are " regulated"

IN Europe, there is NO requirement that the car meets any standards while driven in a real world situation , i.e. you driving down the road. None.

standards for litres/100km c02 , NOX and particulate matter are test in conjunction with a laboratory test using a dynometer and a simulated drying cycle ( called the New European Driving C - NEDC)

A testing house in Europe , runs the test cycle and measure the relevant emissions and fuel economy and issues in effect a certificate. Thats whats appears on your glossy brochures etc

Funnily , people always say " ah sure you never get that litre/100km in real life" , what they forgot to add was " ah sure you'll never get that NOX figure in real life either "


IN the USA its even more stupid , despite a much together NOX levels, the EPA allows the manufacture to self certify . " Oh yes Mr EPA, we ran your tests in lab, and our car passed, oh good says the EPA, heres your cert"

IN diesels , NOX is a function of the burn timing, lean burn engines offering good fuel economy , generate more NOX ( diesel generates much more then petrol engines ) .

To fix this most engines now post treat with these Selective Catalytic Reduction ( adblue) , which converts the Various Nitrous oxides into N2 and H20 etc

1. There is no evidence ( yet( from any European testing house that VW " gamed " the NEDC tests ( any more then any diesel car). VW have stated that the EA189 engine is compliant with Euro 5 standards

2. There is no specific statement has to what VW are doing with the recall ( its a voluntary recall as its not safety related)

There is no mechanism where the C02 emissions of existing cars ob the road can be " reclassified " as there is no law that says the onroad C02 has to be anything specific

BoatMad

John T Carroll wrote: »

Extract from the Irish website "With immediate effect, all customers in Ireland of Volkswagen, Audi, Skoda, Seat and Volkswagen Commercial Vehicles can check on this website for themselves whether the emissions characteristics of their vehicles need to be corrected. This website also features additional information and questions and answers concerning the topic. " you can read what you like from that.

note it goes on to say

"We are working intensively to find a solution and will inform every customer affected about any actions planned as soon as possible"

code = we havent a clue what to do

BoatMad

mickdw wrote: »

You are taking a very narrow view of this.
Surely considering the race to lower co2 here in Europe, and considering the fact that the cheat stayed in the cars for Europe, it is pretty clear to me that a detuning device could very easily be set up to reduce co2 on the test cycle for all the obvious reasons.

so what, once it passed the test it passed the test

NOTE : in the CARB test in the USA, the cars modified on not NEVER actually passed the test. They got better under the tests and the ODB output lied as well, but they never according to the CARB EVER passed those tests

This means that its not the software thats at issue, its that VW lied when it did the original conformance tests. Thats much bigger then any defeat software issue

mickdw

BoatMad wrote: »

People consistently have failed to understand how C02 and NOX levels are " regulated"

IN Europe, there is NO requirement that the car meets any standards while driven in a real world situation , i.e. you driving down the road. None.

standards for litres/100km c02 , NOX and particulate matter are test in conjunction with a laboratory test using a dynometer and a simulated drying cycle ( called the New European Driving C - NEDC)

A testing house in Europe , runs the test cycle and measure the relevant emissions and fuel economy and issues in effect a certificate. Thats whats appears on your glossy brochures etc

Funnily , people always say " ah sure you never get that litre/100km in real life" , what they forgot to add was " ah sure you'll never get that NOX figure in real life either "


IN the USA its even more stupid , despite a much together NOX levels, the EPA allows the manufacture to self certify . " Oh yes Mr EPA, we ran your tests in lab, and our car passed, oh good says the EPA, heres your cert"

IN diesels , NOX is a function of the burn timing, lean burn engines offering good fuel economy , generate more NOX ( diesel generates much more then petrol engines ) .

To fix this most engines now post treat with these Selective Catalytic Reduction ( adblue) , which converts the Various Nitrous oxides into N2 and H20 etc

1. There is no evidence ( yet( from any European testing house that VW " gamed " the NEDC tests ( any more then any diesel car). VW have stated that the EA189 engine is compliant with Euro 5 standards

2. There is no specific statement has to what VW are doing with the recall ( its a voluntary recall as its not safety related)

There is no mechanism where the C02 emissions of existing cars ob the road can be " reclassified " as there is no law that says the onroad C02 has to be anything specific

That is all well and good but it only goes to further prove the they have every incentive to run the cars through the tests with modes that in no way resemble real world driving.
From your post, there would appear to be no law against this - fair enough but if some independent body was to run a thorough set of tests and again found that co2 levels are clearly and purposely stepped down under test conditions, perhaps more than other manufacturers are doing, then it would be too much for the company to withstand in quick succession to the USA fiasco.
Is it therefore reasonable to think that maybe vw would have to backtrack on some trickery and perhaps make an alteration that would indeed alter co2 test results.

John T Carroll

BoatMad wrote: »

note it goes on to say

"We are working intensively to find a solution and will inform every customer affected about any actions planned as soon as possible"

code = we havent a clue what to do

Exactly, and even though the car(s) have passed the test it doesnt exclude "whether the emissions characteristics of their vehicles need to be corrected", so IF the emission characteristics are changed by the "fix" then surely that could have implications, if I intended to keep a diesel VW I'd go right to the bottom of the queue, if at all, to see how other owners got on.

BoatMad

John T Carroll wrote: »

Exactly, and even though the car(s) have passed the test it doesnt exclude "whether the emissions characteristics of their vehicles need to be corrected", so IF the emission characteristics are changed by the "fix" then surely that could have implications, if I intended to keep a diesel VW I'd go right to the bottom of the queue, if at all, to see how other owners got on.

the recall is voluntary, only safety recalls are mandatory in Eu law.

release this , VW , with all the hue and cry , cant just come out and say " oh sorry the software didn't di anything in europe lets ignore it " nor could they even say " oh OK bring your car in and well remove the software "

both of these would seem like VW was doing nothing ....!

so instead they may adjust the emissions of your car ..... alkabam, emissionus removus !!!

I mean whose going got say anything is changed, the garages cant test for NOX, whats the point of the recall

simply - PR, to be seen to respond, to " do" something

5W30

BoatMad wrote: »

the recall is voluntary, only safety recalls are mandatory in Eu law.

release this , VW , with all the hue and cry , cant just come out and say " oh sorry the software didn't di anything in europe lets ignore it " nor could they even say " oh OK bring your car in and well remove the software "

both of these would seem like VW was doing nothing ....!

so instead they may adjust the emissions of your car ..... alkabam, emissionus removus !!!

I mean whose going got say anything is changed, the garages cant test for NOX, whats the point of the recall

simply - PR, to be seen to respond, to " do" something

They could throw in a free valet / service so

BoatMad

mickdw wrote: »

That is all well and good but it only goes to further prove the they have every incentive to run the cars through the tests with modes that in no way resemble real world driving.
From your post, there would appear to be no law against this - fair enough but if some independent body was to run a thorough set of tests and again found that co2 levels are clearly and purposely stepped down under test conditions, perhaps more than other manufacturers are doing, then it would be too much for the company to withstand in quick succession to the USA fiasco.
Is it therefore reasonable to think that maybe vw would have to backtrack on some trickery and perhaps make an alteration that would indeed alter co2 test results.

It is claimed that some test houses in Europe are re-running the NEDC test. I suspect that will achieve nothing

We already know that on-road levels of co2 , NOX are significantly greater then tested . SO what will a further test show. The issue boils down to the nonsense that is NEDC. the industry and the regulators know all this of course

DO you really think that VW doesnt know within a millisecond, how its engines perform everywhere, Ive been in VW research in Wolfsburgh , These guys know everything , absolutely everything about how the car performs


as I said to me the "defeat software " is a device to allow VW to doge the real bullet, conveniently whipped out in the US to side step the real issue. ( on road emissions )

Noone has even determined if the software is there in the first place, just that VW " said" it was there

jimgoose

BoatMad wrote: »

...the garages cant test for NOX...

Not quite so, chief. Garages don't want/have no motivation to test for NOx. Sykes-Pickavant do a full diesel gas analyser for the price of a decent diagnostics rig.

BoatMad

5W30 wrote: »

They could throw in a free valet / service so

absolutely and a cheap coffee to boot

dr.fuzzenstein

jimgoose wrote: »

I had assumed, quietly, that they were doing that as well. I mean you would, wouldn't you? A quick "public static void FinagleInjectorMap (&testJurisdiction)" and bish-bash-Bosch!

it's not just the Bosh that's at it, I'm sure!

BoatMad

jimgoose wrote: »

Not quite so, chief. Garages don't want/have no motivation to test for NOx. Sykes-Pickavant do a full diesel gas analyser for the price of a decent diagnostics rig.

no guv, garages dont have NOX testing because there is NO applicable NOX limit for on-road ( i.e. not on the NEDC test ) tests

so what would a garage do with a NOX reading

err guv, " me NOX-o-meter, is saying your jetty is polluting like it was in China " , "oh right then is that bad ", says you , " err - dunno guv"

no on road limits no point in testing for it