EPA says Volkswagen cheated on emissions with 482,000 diesel cars

jimgoose

BoatMad wrote: »

no guv, garages dont have NOX testing because there is NO applicable NOX limit for on-road ( i.e. not on the NEDC test ) tests

so what would a garage do with a NOX reading

err guv, " me NOX-o-meter, is saying your jetty is polluting like it was in China " , "oh right then is that bad ", says you , " err - dunno guv"

no on road limits no point in testing for it

Yes, that's sort of what I said.

BoatMad

jimgoose wrote: »

Yes, that's sort of what I said.

sure you did - sunshine sure :pac:

jimgoose

BoatMad wrote: »

sure you did - sunshine sure :pac:

Er, quite.

robtri

does anyone know if the certificate of conformity that the manufacturer provides contains NOX information?
if it does and its wrong will customers have the option of consumer law that the vehicle wasnt fit for purpose and demand a refund?

BoatMad

robtri wrote: »

does anyone know if the certificate of conformity that the manufacturer provides contains NOX information?
if it does and its wrong will customers have the option of consumer law that the vehicle wasnt fit for purpose and demand a refund?

NOX limits have been in place since 2009, and are included in the NEDC test that a testing house performs in certifying the conformance of the vehicle

In the EU its the member state where the tests are carried out that is responsible for ensuring the test is not gamed or defeat devices are used. the Germans will no doubt persecute its own industry !!!!.

to date no testing house has confirmed or denied that VW has gamed the NEDC tests. ( nor has it been proven that VW gamed the US tests either, its merely alleged that it did )

IF ( and its a big if ) VW was guilty of using defeat devices to game the NEDC test, then it would be required to make the vehicle pass the test correctly , this has in reality NO effect on what the vehicle does on the road.

Hence I cannot see how you would claim the vehicle was fit for purpose, when there is no law that says it has to be. VW has claimed the cars are compliant with Euro 5 NEDC, until disproved that the situation

robtri

BoatMad wrote: »

NOX limits have been in place since 2009, and are included in the NEDC test that a testing house performs in certifying the conformance of the vehicle

In the EU its the member state where the tests are carried out that is responsible for ensuring the test is not gamed or defeat devices are used. the Germans will no doubt persecute its own industry !!!!.

to date no testing house has confirmed or denied that VW has gamed the NEDC tests. ( nor has it been proven that VW gamed the US tests either, its merely alleged that it did )

IF ( and its a big if ) VW was guilty of using defeat devices to game the NEDC test, then it would be required to make the vehicle pass the test correctly , this has in reality NO effect on what the vehicle does on the road.

Hence I cannot see how you would claim the vehicle was fit for purpose, when there is no law that says it has to be. VW has claimed the cars are compliant with Euro 5 NEDC, until disproved that the situation

If it is proven that VW have "tweaked " the results on purpose here in Europe, then the certificate of Conformity under which the car was sold would be invalid and the vehicle could be classed as mis sold. Therfore surely under Irish Law they would have the right to claim

from http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/consumer_affairs/consumer_protection/consumer_rights/consumers_and_the_law_in_ireland.html

[quote=
Goods must be fit for their purpose – they must do what they are reasonably expected to do
Goods must be as described - the buyer must not be mislead into buying something by the description of goods or services given orally by a salesperson or an advertisement. /quote]

BoatMad

robtri wrote: »

If it is proven that VW have "tweaked " the results on purpose here in Europe, then the certificate of Conformity under which the car was sold would be invalid and the vehicle could be classed as mis sold. Therfore surely under Irish Law they would have the right to claim

from http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/consumer_affairs/consumer_protection/consumer_rights/consumers_and_the_law_in_ireland.html

[quote=
Goods must be fit for their purpose – they must do what they are reasonably expected to do
Goods must be as described - the buyer must not be mislead into buying something by the description of goods or services given orally by a salesperson or an advertisement. /quote]

true , but could you afford to take the court case

the decision would come down to whether the item was " materially " different , the argument being that in reality the on-road emissions were always the same


very hard case to prove and certainly Joe Car-Owner isn't going to be taking it

robtri

BoatMad wrote: »

robtri wrote: »

If it is proven that VW have "tweaked " the results on purpose here in Europe, then the certificate of Conformity under which the car was sold would be invalid and the vehicle could be classed as mis sold. Therfore surely under Irish Law they would have the right to claim

from http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/consumer_affairs/consumer_protection/consumer_rights/consumers_and_the_law_in_ireland.html



true , but could you afford to take the court case

the decision would come down to whether the item was " materially " different , the argument being that in reality the on-road emissions were always the same


very hard case to prove and certainly Joe Car-Owner isn't going to be taking it

ohh i am alright I have never owned a diesel.... so wont have to worry about that case....

I owuld disagree, it comes down to what the consumer was sold... it was sold based on the conformity cert, so if that is proven to be false then the car was mis sold...

FortySeven

BoatMad wrote: »

robtri wrote: »

If it is proven that VW have "tweaked " the results on purpose here in Europe, then the certificate of Conformity under which the car was sold would be invalid and the vehicle could be classed as mis sold. Therfore surely under Irish Law they would have the right to claim

from http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/consumer_affairs/consumer_protection/consumer_rights/consumers_and_the_law_in_ireland.html



true , but could you afford to take the court case

the decision would come down to whether the item was " materially " different , the argument being that in reality the on-road emissions were always the same


very hard case to prove and certainly Joe Car-Owner isn't going to be taking it

If you got 10% of owners together I'm fairly sure a case could be brought. 13000 people buy a lot of lawyer. They would settle anyway. Anyone can see that they just want this to go away, they are sitting ducks for a quick buck.

The fact they admit to 'cheating' at all would bring the case in favour of the claimants from the get go. Resale values and environmental premium would be the other angles. I'd say a few grand each to shut them up.

robtri

FortySeven wrote: »

BoatMad wrote: »

If you got 10% of owners together I'm fairly sure a case could be brought. 13000 people buy a lot of lawyer. They would settle anyway. Anyone can see that they just want this to go away, they are sitting ducks for a quick buck.

The fact they admit to 'cheating' at all would bring the case in favour of the claimants from the get go. Resale values and environmental premium would be the other angles. I'd say a few grand each to shut them up.

I wonder if it worth buying a "non compliant" vw for cheap now and hope to get a cash settlement ...... just a thought

BoatMad

FortySeven wrote: »

BoatMad wrote: »

If you got 10% of owners together I'm fairly sure a case could be brought. 13000 people buy a lot of lawyer. They would settle anyway. Anyone can see that they just want this to go away, they are sitting ducks for a quick buck.

The fact they admit to 'cheating' at all would bring the case in favour of the claimants from the get go. Resale values and environmental premium would be the other angles. I'd say a few grand each to shut them up.

the bigger issue , is either the car is compliant or its not. so either VW wave their magic wand and say it is and the EU aggress

if it doesnt or cant make them complaint, they will be forced to buy them back , a doomsday scenario

mickdw

robtri wrote: »

I wonder if it worth buying a "non compliant" vw for cheap now and hope to get a cash settlement ...... just a thought

You won't buy one for cheap. Having one here, we do not view it as having lost value. We certainly wouldn't be trying to offload it cheap.
The bigger the f*ck up by vw now, the better for current owners imo.

BoatMad

FortySeven wrote: »

BoatMad wrote: »

If you got 10% of owners together I'm fairly sure a case could be brought. 13000 people buy a lot of lawyer. They would settle anyway. Anyone can see that they just want this to go away, they are sitting ducks for a quick buck.

The fact they admit to 'cheating' at all would bring the case in favour of the claimants from the get go. Resale values and environmental premium would be the other angles. I'd say a few grand each to shut them up.

no given the ramifications in other jurisdictions , Id say VW will fight any court case viciously. An admission in court. that the car was knowing illegally gaming the tests and was in fact non compliant , would break VW

note that in the US , VW admitted to a defeat device, they have not admitted that the cars are non compliant , merely stating that certain " on-road" conditions have led to significant emissions and they will " fix " that

The problem is they already tried for 2 years to " fix " it and failed defeat software or no defeat software ( which is why I think the defeat software is a red herring sacrificial lamb !!!:p) . because the nox limits there are twice as tight as europes and the CARB is retesting every change VW makes, I suspect they will have to recall and compensate every 2009-2015 vw owner in the US , ooh the millions

BoatMad

mickdw wrote: »

You won't buy one for cheap. Having one here, we do not view it as having lost value. We certainly wouldn't be trying to offload it cheap.
The bigger the f*ck up by vw now, the better for current owners imo.

i wont dream of selling a 2009 - 2015 Vw until this blows over, it could be worth a fortune if VW have to buy it back from you

though unlikely if you live in Europe, in the US however .....:o

BoatMad

you guys might this interesting

Auto Express asked Volkswagen for full details of the fix that will be offered to VW, Audi, Skoda and SEAT customers with cars fitted with the affected EA189 engine and whether it would be a software or hardware fix.

Questions were also asked about the effect the modifications would have on existing fuel economy and emissions of the vehicles and whether Volkswagen's rogue ‘defeat device’ was active during European emissions testing.

Finally, Auto Express asked if any compensation would be offered for the inconvenience suffered by customers, for any differences in economy and emissions after the remedial work had been completed or for the loss of value of vehicles due to the emissions scandal.

Volkswagen is still unable to answer any of these questions. A spokesman told us, “Some can’t be answered for legal reasons, others can’t be answered for technical reasons. We think it’s going to be weeks rather than months before people find out what the technical fix is.”

and in a further twist

with the VW Group emissions scandal in full swing, car makers ask EU regulators to lower NOx emissions targets for new cars

The car industry has admitted that makers can’t meet 2020 diesel pollution targets and want to almost double Euro 6 limits under new tests, Auto Express understands.

Its been revealed by an EU insider that the European Automobile Manufacturers Association (ACEA) is asking for a “conformity factor” of 1.7, whereby cars would be given Euro 6 status for emitting 0.136g/km of nitrogen oxides (NOx) from 2020.

Policymakers are planning a zero-tolerance approach on the 0.080g/km Euro 6 limit from 2020, but have agreed a two-phase implementation with softer regulations in place for 2017 to 2020.


However, the insider said the ACEA wants to push this further and is asking for compliance for cars emitting 2.75 times the Euro 6 limits during the first three-year period. That’s equal to 0.220g/km – a figure that wouldn’t even meet Euro 5 legislation.

Our source also revealed the ACEA feels the battles currently facing VW are a US conspiracy against European diesels. Its demands came at a behind-closed-doors meeting on 1 October ahead of the Real-World Driving Emissions (RDE) tests, which will be officially introduced on 1 January 2016 – although only for monitoring purposes in year one. From 2017, RDE will be used for Euro 6 compliance tests on new type approval vehicles and in 2018, all new cars sold in the EU must pass RDE tests.

FortySeven

mickdw wrote: »

You won't buy one for cheap. Having one here, we do not view it as having lost value. We certainly wouldn't be trying to offload it cheap.
The bigger the f*ck up by vw now, the better for current owners imo.

Unfortunately it is the buyer who dictates market value, not the seller.

Oafley Jones

BoatMad wrote: »

you guys might this interesting

Auto Express asked Volkswagen for full details of the fix that will be offered to VW, Audi, Skoda and SEAT customers with cars fitted with the affected EA189 engine and whether it would be a software or hardware fix.

Questions were also asked about the effect the modifications would have on existing fuel economy and emissions of the vehicles and whether Volkswagen's rogue ‘defeat device’ was active during European emissions testing.

Finally, Auto Express asked if any compensation would be offered for the inconvenience suffered by customers, for any differences in economy and emissions after the remedial work had been completed or for the loss of value of vehicles due to the emissions scandal.

Volkswagen is still unable to answer any of these questions. A spokesman told us, “Some can’t be answered for legal reasons, others can’t be answered for technical reasons. We think it’s going to be weeks rather than months before people find out what the technical fix is.”

and in a further twist

with the VW Group emissions scandal in full swing, car makers ask EU regulators to lower NOx emissions targets for new cars

The car industry has admitted that makers can’t meet 2020 diesel pollution targets and want to almost double Euro 6 limits under new tests, Auto Express understands.

Its been revealed by an EU insider that the European Automobile Manufacturers Association (ACEA) is asking for a “conformity factor” of 1.7, whereby cars would be given Euro 6 status for emitting 0.136g/km of nitrogen oxides (NOx) from 2020.

Policymakers are planning a zero-tolerance approach on the 0.080g/km Euro 6 limit from 2020, but have agreed a two-phase implementation with softer regulations in place for 2017 to 2020.


However, the insider said the ACEA wants to push this further and is asking for compliance for cars emitting 2.75 times the Euro 6 limits during the first three-year period. That’s equal to 0.220g/km – a figure that wouldn’t even meet Euro 5 legislation.

Our source also revealed the ACEA feels the battles currently facing VW are a US conspiracy against European diesels. Its demands came at a behind-closed-doors meeting on 1 October ahead of the Real-World Driving Emissions (RDE) tests, which will be officially introduced on 1 January 2016 – although only for monitoring purposes in year one. From 2017, RDE will be used for Euro 6 compliance tests on new type approval vehicles and in 2018, all new cars sold in the EU must pass RDE tests.

It's worth remembering that autoexpress is going to toe the VAG party line. They'll do whatever their pay masters need. Their coverage of this has been predictably woeful; falling to comment for days when the scandal broke and then bizarrely offering a "statement" as opposed to an editorial comment. They've tried to deflect since and the above is just more of the same. Just today we've had them offering "Why not try a petrol Superb instead". AE is utter ****e.

BoatMad

Oafley Jones wrote: »

It's worth remembering that autoexpress is going to toe the VAG party line. They'll do whatever their pay masters need. Their coverage of this has been predictably woeful; falling to comment for days when the scandal broke and then bizarrely offering a "statement" as opposed to an editorial comment. They've tried to deflect since and the above is just more of the same. Just today we've had them offering "Why not try a petrol Superb instead". AE is utter ****e.

i though the piece was quite hard on VW

BoatMad

FortySeven wrote: »

Unfortunately it is the buyer who dictates market value, not the seller.

I certainly would be in no hurry to have the recall done,

also value might be very good if VW have to buy them all back !!!;) or give you a euro 6 2016 model instead !!:eek:

Oafley Jones

BoatMad wrote: »

i though the piece was quite hard on VW

A couple of softball questions with no follow up? And then the deflection to the rest of the industry! That's as easy as you can get.

mickdw

FortySeven wrote: »

Unfortunately it is the buyer who dictates market value, not the seller.

More supply and demand I would have thought.
Might be difficult enough to get your hands on a good used vw on a private sale if this scandal gets alittle bit juicier.

BoatMad

Oafley Jones wrote: »

A couple of softball questions with no follow up? And then the deflection to the rest of the industry! That's as easy as you can get.

no I think it shows how difficult the industry is finding it to produce compliant vehicles , which is the issue behind VW

dr.fuzzenstein

BoatMad wrote: »

no I think it shows how difficult the industry is finding it to produce compliant vehicles , which is the issue behind VW

Yep, its environmental policy by politicians purely as cosmetic politics, i.e. whatever makes you look good.
"We'll just keep tightening the targets and in the end we'll have a car that has zero emissions, can go forever on no fuel, 0-60 in 5 seconds, top speed of 120 mph and costs a fiver to buy! All by the power of my say-so. Sure I dont know the first thing about designing a car, but how hard can it be to double mpg and half emissions?"

Comhrá

Trouble comin' down the line. . .


http://www.independent.ie/business/world/volkswagen-boss-tells-staff-to-brace-themselves-for-massive-cutbacks-and-job-losses-31587139.html

BoatMad

tippman1 wrote: »

Trouble comin' down the line. . .


http://www.independent.ie/business/world/volkswagen-boss-tells-staff-to-brace-themselves-for-massive-cutbacks-and-job-losses-31587139.html

Id say its more of " never let a crisis go to waste " planning

Stallingrad

Once again Joe six pack gets shafted, while the people who signed off on this are where exactly?

BoatMad

Stallingrad wrote: »

Once again Joe six pack gets shafted, while the people who signed off on this are where exactly?

fired I think

Henry Ford III

This just arrived via Gmail......Looks legit.


Ford. Go Further.
Ford. Go Further


Dear HFIII,
If you follow any sort of media, you’re sure to have heard the stories about emissions testing for diesel engines.
We wanted to take this opportunity to bring you some more positive news and deliver this message from our company Executive Vice President, Jim Farley.
FORD EMISSIONS COMMITMENT
Given the worldwide attention and news coverage related to diesel emissions tests, we at Ford want to make sure our position on these key issues is clear.
First, our vehicles and engines – including our advanced-technology diesel engines – meet all applicable emissions requirements. Importantly, we do not have any so‑called “defeat devices” in our vehicles.
We also fully support efforts to ensure that test procedures more closely match the real‑world conditions that customers experience under normal driving. That is why we have supported the development of a European Real Driving Emissions initiative that is going into law in Europe.
Ford is committed to offering customers high fuel efficiency and low emissions through what we call the “power of choice.” We offer a variety of choices ranging from our EcoBoost-powered petrol vehicles and advanced technology diesels to hybrids, plug-in hybrids and full electric vehicles.
Visit www.ford.ie or your local FordStore or Ford dealer to learn more about Ford’s newest vehicles, technology and our commitment to Go Further.
Jim Farley
Executive Vice President, Europe, Middle East and Africa
Ford Motor Company

corkonion

You can check to see if your car is affected here... http://www.campaigncheck.ie/

fret_wimp2

Horray, my car's affected. Doesnt change anything really for the moment, car still runs well and is as safe as it ever was.

Wondering however that as i purchased it less than 3 months ago, its still under warranty, do i have any recourse?