EPA says Volkswagen cheated on emissions with 482,000 diesel cars

mickdw

Special Circumstances wrote: »

There was some mention of fuel pumps for the smaller engines. Seems strange, I also thought removing the technicality of illegal software would be sufficient for Europe (ie the engines must be shocking altogether if they can't pass EU nox emissions )

Could it be that there is an issue re what was declared on cert of conformity for Europe?
Would vw perhaps have declared similar nox levels for Europe as they did for usa to avoid people questioning a drastic difference.
If that were to be the case, I could see major issues here for them.

Special Circumstances

mickdw wrote: »

If that were to be the case, I could see major issues here for them.

Ouch.

My current theories on why they have been so quiet in europe are:

A) VW can't just say "don't worry yer little pixie heads, EU regulations are so backward on nox we just need to delete some lines of code on a technicality", as it will draw attention to the disparities between EU emissions regulations and other jurisdictions.

They are stalling for time while panicking big time because an expensive fix is needed or there is no fix.

C) They just don't care, they know it will all be conviently tidied up - in Europe at least.

dr.fuzzenstein

thierry14 wrote: »

That's why my boss drives a diesel Porsche 😀
I thought it was the mpg he was watching

Take a look at that tax disc, is it commercial perchance?

Tea 1000

BigEejit wrote: »

I am pretty sure that there are some people in the market to buy a car right now would not touch a VW with a bargepole ... How many potential VW purchasers will be in that camp when it comes time for you to sell your car? more? less?

I suspect that this has damaged the image of VW and diesel cars in general and will reduce the number of buyers which will reduce the selling price.

I'll guarantee you one thing... there are not many. The VW sales will not be dented much when we look at the figures by June next year.
That been said, the papers will all cite lower volume sales for VW from when the news broke to the end of the year, but that is normal. So first 6 months of next year will tell the real tale.
Besides, it's going to affect all of them.
And the environmental lady in that last post is right, but the reality is that the people that run the economy in Europe don't want drastic changes, neither do the customers.

BoatMad

fret_wimp2 wrote: »

So two outcomes from my perspective:

1. They come good for the customer. Car is fixed/new car provided or refund/compensation provided.

2. Customer is shafted. Cars are taxed higher at best or at worst put off the road(unlikely)


I know what scenario my money is on (if i had money and wasnt saving it for impending higher tax!)

I suspect the engine was never compliant and won't be

Best case , customer gets full compensation or equivalent ea 288 engined car

BoatMad

Special Circumstances wrote: »

Ouch.

My current theories on why they have been so quiet in europe are:

A) VW can't just say "don't worry yer little pixie heads, EU regulations are so backward on nox we just need to delete some lines of code on a technicality", as it will draw attention to the disparities between EU emissions regulations and other jurisdictions.

They are stalling for time while panicking big time because an expensive fix is needed or there is no fix.

C) They just don't care, they know it will all be conviently tidied up - in Europe at least.

Agreed

Pont 1 = Europe . Point 2= USA

BoatMad

Special Circumstances wrote: »

There was some mention of fuel pumps for the smaller engines. Seems strange, I also thought removing the technicality of illegal software would be sufficient for Europe (ie the engines must be shocking altogether if they can't pass EU nox emissions )

You need to separate what's VW are saying in the US and Europe. To my understanding no clear details of what they are doing in Europe have cone to light

Personally it's all smoke and mirrors , all they will do in Europe, is remove the software, however tbis requires a full ECU swap

Special Circumstances

BoatMad wrote: »

You need to separate what's VW are saying in the US and Europe. To my understanding no clear details of what they are doing in Europe have cone to light

Personally it's all smoke and mirrors , all they will do in Europe, is remove the software, however tbis requires a full ECU swap

Yes, the EU / US differences are part of the confusion. And I would have expected a firmware flash would have been sufficient in Europe, not even an ECU swap, until....

According to the Wall Street Journal (linked to by someone else, not my find)
"In some cases hardware changes will also be necessary. In vehicles with 1.2-liter and 1.6-liter engines, which aren’t sold in the U.S., a hardware change will likely be necessary because a fuel injection pump has to be replaced to ensure a smooth ride, Mr. Buhlmann said. In Europe, vehicles with 2-liter engines will only need a software update, but it isn’t clear whether that would suffice in the U.S. due to different standards."

I'm intrigued by the need for the fuel pump change I must say.

BoatMad

Special Circumstances wrote: »

Yes, the EU / US differences are part of the confusion. And I would have expected a firmware flash would have been sufficient in Europe, not even an ECU swap, until....

According to the Wall Street Journal (linked to by someone else, not my find)
"In some cases hardware changes will also be necessary. In vehicles with 1.2-liter and 1.6-liter engines, which aren’t sold in the U.S., a hardware change will likely be necessary because a fuel injection pump has to be replaced to ensure a smooth ride, Mr. Buhlmann said. In Europe, vehicles with 2-liter engines will only need a software update, but it isn’t clear whether that would suffice in the U.S. due to different standards."

I'm intrigued by the need for the fuel pump change I must say.

I would discount any newspaper report of details like that.

Dealers can't flash ECUs. So it's a swap. Since the software does nothing when the car is running , I can't see why any performance issue will change. To my knowledge Europe , unlike the US will not require VW to recertify the changes , nor fix the issue with excessive real world emissions ( which VW do not legally have to fix )

Special Circumstances

BoatMad wrote: »

I would discount any newspaper report of details like that.

So in your opinion, Christian Buhlmann, VW spokesman, is either on a solo run here or the WSJ has completely misquoted him?

This whole thing gets curiouser and curiouser!

BoatMad

Special Circumstances wrote: »

So in your opinion, Christian Buhlmann, VW spokesman, is either on a solo run here or the WSJ has completely misquoted him?

This whole thing gets curiouser and curiouser!

Yes I think he did , given that VW have not even explained what is the situation in Europe.

I did certain VW executives are " desperate" to be seeing to do " something " and are making statements ahead of facts. VW is only meeting the relevant EU commissioner next week.


As with Horns statement to the committee , VW response is full of mis truths , half truths and obfuscation. We will see a lot more revelations ( quietly , as the dust settles ) it will be well into 2016 before we know the real truth ( if we ever do )

BoatMad

Special Circumstances wrote: »

So in your opinion, Christian Buhlmann, VW spokesman, is either on a solo run here or the WSJ has completely misquoted him?

This whole thing gets curiouser and curiouser!

Yes I think he did , given that VW have not even explained what is the situation in Europe is, and no one has yet re run the NEDC tests independently of VW to see what the actual issues are

I did certain VW executives are " desperate" to be seeing to do " something " and are making statements ahead of facts. VW is only meeting the relevant EU commissioner next week.


As with Horns statement to the committee , VW response is full of mis truths , half truths and obfuscation. We will see a lot more revelations ( quietly , as the dust settles ) it will be well into 2016 before we know the real truth ( if we ever do )

Special Circumstances

BoatMad wrote: »

I would discount any newspaper report of details like that.

Dealers can't flash ECUs. So it's a swap. Since the software does nothing when the car is running , I can't see why any performance issue will change. To my knowledge Europe , unlike the US will not require VW to recertify the changes , nor fix the issue with excessive real world emissions ( which VW do not legally have to fix )

On the "dealers don't flash" thing....

Say you get car X remapped.

You go do dealer for warranty work or whatever and a firmware/software update is applied. (Not uncommon or so I'm led to believe)

Your remap is gone and must be re-applied by your tuner.

What happened in that case? Did the dealer flash the ecu or not?

Is this defeat mode software kept in a separate one time programmable ROM if it can't be updated the same as the normal day to day stuff?

BoatMad

Special Circumstances wrote: »

On the "dealers don't flash" thing....

Say you get car X remapped.

You go do dealer for warranty work or whatever and a firmware/software update is applied. (Not uncommon or so I'm led to believe)

Your remap is gone and must be re-applied by your tuner.

What happened in that case? Did the dealer flash the ecu or not?

Is this defeat mode software kept in a separate one time programmable ROM if it can't be updated the same as the normal day to day stuff?

It depends. , certain older ECUs had plugabble ROMS. Newer are flash , depends on dealer etc. some can be programmed , some dealers have the kit others don't

mickdw

Tea 1000 wrote: »

I'll guarantee you one thing... there are not many.

There are loads.
My parents are due to change for a new passat from a 3 year old one that is effected by the recall.
They are holding off, not because of any fear of a new vw but just to see how this plays out.
I'm sure there are many many more in the same situation.

BoatMad

mickdw wrote: »

There are loads.
My parents are due to change for a new passat from a 3 year old one that is effected by the recall.
They are holding off, not because of any fear of a new vw but just to see how this plays out.
I'm sure there are many many more in the same situation.

They are prepared to wait anything up to two years then. What are they " holding off " for exactly

mickdw

BoatMad wrote: »

They are prepared to wait anything up to two years then. What are they " holding off " for exactly

They will hold off well into the new year anyway.
As I say no particular reason but will be interesting to see how it goes. If the sh1t did hit the fan in Europe, well it might be alittle easier to bargain with them.

BoatMad

mickdw wrote: »

They will hold off well into the new year anyway.
As I say no particular reason but will be interesting to see how it goes. If the sh1t did hit the fan in Europe, well it might be alittle easier to bargain with them.

You think.

I think not. Your own car might be worthless for example

robbie99

The problem that VW and Audi will have is that if it turns out that they knew that their emissions control systems were under engineered and could never meet the regulations, then there'll have been a serious breach of trust here which will be very difficult to regain. Not everybody may care for the environment but people will wonder what might they be falsely declaring or cutting back on? Are their cars really 5 star NCAP for example?

mickdw

BoatMad wrote: »

You think.

I think not. Your own car might be worthless for example

You seem to argue out of both sides of your mouth just to suit the argument at hand.
One minute you tend to laugh at any Suggestion that vw have any issue whatsoever in Europe, next you are thinking that the cars in Europe may be worthless.

Toyotafanboi

robbie99 wrote: »

Are their cars really 5 star NCAP for example?

NCAP is carried out independently, so in that particular example, it'd be a whole other league of impossible to fake an NCAP result.

BoatMad

mickdw wrote: »

You seem to argue out of both sides of your mouth just to suit the argument at hand.
One minute you tend to laugh at any Suggestion that vw have any issue whatsoever in Europe, next you are thinking that the cars in Europe may be worthless.

No , I'm pointing out the whole stupidity of predicting the effect , up or down, of a VW car , given you or I can't see the future , it most likely will have no effect , but anything either way could happen.

( most likely personally , I think the perceived value of 2nd hand EA189 engined cars will fall, sell it now , would be my view )

If your parents had justification to change now , that still stands , waiting merely in a vain hope you might capitalise on some " future " unforeseen change of value is quite frankly foolish in the extreme.

BoatMad

robbie99 wrote: »

The problem that VW and Audi will have is that if it turns out that they knew that their emissions control systems were under engineered and could never meet the regulations, then there'll have been a serious breach of trust here which will be very difficult to regain. Not everybody may care for the environment but people will wonder what might they be falsely declaring or cutting back on? Are their cars really 5 star NCAP for example?

Actually most owners are benefitting by the scam , they got engines that better performed on mileage and power then the competitors. Most people neither care nor know what actually comes out the tail pipe, nor does the NEDC test that anyway

robbie99

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

NCAP is carried out independently, so in that particular example, it'd be a whole other league of impossible to fake an NCAP result.

I know NCAP is a crazy example and I brought it up because I couldn't think of a better example than safety as something that most people probably care for more than the environment.

But I don't think it would be so impossible to fake. If you think about it, how many cars do the NCAP actually test to destruction? Not many I would have thought, a few dozen? What's to stop a manufacturer sending specially strengthened cars for the test? And what's to stop a manufacturer once a car gets its NCAP rating substituting cheaper lower grade components such as airbags for the ones used during the test.

Toyotafanboi

that's actually very true!

robbie99

BoatMad wrote: »

Actually most owners are benefitting by the scam , they got engines that better performed on mileage and power then the competitors. Most people neither care nor know what actually comes out the tail pipe, nor does the NEDC test that anyway

I agree with you that most owners don't really care about the emissions and sure most haven't even heard of NOx before let alone know the difference between CO that's tested for during the NCT and CO2 emissions.

But for sure every VW owner knows now that VW have been cheating and lying about something and think now that something's wrong with their car. VW are in serious trouble over this and won't regain any trust back easily.

BoatMad

But for sure every VW owner knows now that VW have been cheating and lying about something and think now that something's wrong with their car. VW are in serious trouble over this and won't regain any trust back easily.

The on road tests showed VW to be no more cheating or lying then anyone else , read the ICCT report , Mercedes for example was the worst I believe

jonnie45

I hope the Irish state does not get too "uppity" on this one.

As a new comer to Ireland I am shocked by the number of cars on Irish roads - some newer quality models that continuously
belch great clouds of smoke. Whats going on? Is the NCT test ineffective or is it a national trend to over fill
oil resevoirs? Why is it tolerated? Internet forums full of chat on how to beat the emissions test, I have been offered
the advice verbally without even asking for it.

Responsibility for emissions start with the manufacturer when the new car hits the tarmac but they then become
responsibility of the state in terms of testing and enforcement during the lifetime of the vehicle. Just from what
I have seen on the roads these past months I would say that the Irish state is not enforcing emssions adequately on
existing road stock.

dr.fuzzenstein

You should have been here in the 90's.
Car maintenance has improved immeasurably since then, back then "service" was simply an oil change every other year and otherwise just fix whatever fell off the car.

BoatMad

jonnie45 wrote: »

I hope the Irish state does not get too "uppity" on this one.

As a new comer to Ireland I am shocked by the number of cars on Irish roads - some newer quality models that continuously
belch great clouds of smoke. Whats going on? Is the NCT test ineffective or is it a national trend to over fill
oil resevoirs? Why is it tolerated? Internet forums full of chat on how to beat the emissions test, I have been offered
the advice verbally without even asking for it.

Responsibility for emissions start with the manufacturer when the new car hits the tarmac but they then become
responsibility of the state in terms of testing and enforcement during the lifetime of the vehicle. Just from what
I have seen on the roads these past months I would say that the Irish state is not enforcing emssions adequately on
existing road stock.

Or on road testing , aka the NCT follows the European tests and limits. Nobody in Europe does on road emissions testing , all the cars would fail. Just too reiterate , Europe does not test on road emissions performance

I've not noticed any particular difference in Ireland compared to Europe.