EPA says Volkswagen cheated on emissions with 482,000 diesel cars

BoatMad

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

You should have been here in the 90's.
Car maintenance has improved immeasurably since then, back then "service" was simply an oil change every other year and otherwise just fix whatever fell off the car.

Sounds like my wife's car today

dr.fuzzenstein

BoatMad wrote: »

The on road tests showed VW to be no more cheating or lying then anyone else , read the ICCT report , Mercedes for example was the worst I believe

To use the Lance Armstrong example again. Everyone was howling, jumping up and down and tearing their hair out whilst pointing at him. Everyone knows everyone else was at it. No matter, as Al Pacino once said "You need people like me so you can point your fcukin' fingers and say, 'That's the bad guy.'"
Typical hysterical hypocritical attitude. We found the bad guy, so now we have an excuse to have us a good ole fashioned lynchin' all whilst not giving the slightest bit of a sh*t about the fact that we know damn well that everyone else is at it.
VW just got unlucky.

BoatMad

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

To use the Lance Armstrong example again. Everyone was howling, jumping up and down and tearing their hair out whilst pointing at him. Everyone knows everyone else was at it. No matter, as Al Pacino once said "You need people like me so you can point your fcukin' fingers and say, 'That's the bad guy.'"
Typical hysterical hypocritical attitude. We found the bad guy, so now we have an excuse to have us a good ole fashioned lynchin' all whilst not giving the slightest bit of a sh*t about the fact that we know damn well that everyone else is at it.
VW just got unlucky.

Well VW got caught in the US , in my opinion, placing an engine they knew would not pass , unto the US market , a much bigger scandal , then this nonsense over they" defeat software " , in that regard there was only one cookie jar with one hand in it when mom ( EPA) switched on the light

In Europe everyone has their hand in the cookie jar, but the EU actually knows all the cookies are being stolen and doesn't want to turn on the light , instead it's shouting " anyone there, I'm about to turn on the light , and then In a few minutes I'm coming in "

robbie99

BoatMad wrote: »

The on road tests showed VW to be no more cheating or lying then anyone else , read the ICCT report , Mercedes for example was the worst I believe

I've read a few reports including the one where they showed that a BMW X5 over the full course of the on the road test complied with the strict US NOx emissions standards (although no doubt you'll point out that over an uphill stage of the test it didn't maintain those standards). So there's no need for BMW to be lying or cheating about NOx in the US.

About Mercedes, I'm sure your talking about CO2 and how their cars are emitting about 50% more CO2 on the road than during the NEDC test.

VW are in trouble for emitting up to 4000% times more NOx than allowed to by law in the US. VW have already admitted to cheating to gain certification for their cars in the US by using a software 'defeat device'. This is a violation of US law.

All manufacturers have higher on the road CO2 emissions than the NEDC test and everyone agrees that this is an issue with the NEDC test itself rather falsification of results or cheating. Earlier in this thread you called the tuning that goes on to maximise the NEDC results 'gaming' rather than cheating.

The cheating that VW did was showing utter contempt and disregard for US emission regulations and there's no suggestion that other manufacturers cheated to anywhere near the same extent as VW have already admitted to, in the US. As for NOx emissions in Europe, I guess that all manufacturers will get an opportunity over the coming months to justify discrepancies between on the road and Euro 5/6 certification. The NEDC CO2 emissions is a separate and an issue with the test itself.

rocky

VW withdraws EPA application for 2016 models with 2-liter diesels

http://www.autonews.com/article/20151007/OEM11/151009850?template=mobile&X-IgnoreUserAgent=1

Long Time Lurker

If you listen closely you can just about hear the death knell of diesel sales in North America. They didn't really want them in the first place and this just finishes the job.

Special Circumstances

rocky wrote: »

VW withdraws EPA application for 2016 models with 2-liter diesels

http://www.autonews.com/article/20151007/OEM11/151009850?template=mobile&X-IgnoreUserAgent=1

Euro6 compliant diesels can't be made compliant with air quality standards the yanks have been applying to similar sized cars for years???? Dear oh dear!

I assume these are the latest and greatest VW 2.0 tdi (possibly with scr ) so they should be much cleaner than the previous 2.0s implicated in the emissions fakery.

Special Circumstances

If they can't wave a magic software wand over the latest generation engines already fitted with AdBlue/scr/whatever. .. how are they going to get older engines designed for less stringent regulations in line even with retrofit hardware.

Going on the current vague info it looks like they will be scrapping a lot of cars in the states or shipping them back to Europe where they can smut around all day and none of the environmentalists care.

BoatMad

Special Circumstances wrote: »

If they can't wave a magic software wand over the latest generation engines already fitted with AdBlue/scr/whatever. .. how are they going to get older engines designed for less stringent regulations in line even with retrofit hardware.

Going on the current vague info it looks like they will be scrapping a lot of cars in the states or shipping them back to Europe where they can smut around all day and none of the environmentalists care.

Gen 2 VW in the states , ie 2014 has SCR/urea

Special Circumstances

BoatMad wrote: »

Gen 2 VW in the states , ie 2014 has SCR/urea

Ah, wasn't sure when it came in. Is there an earlier version of the engine without scr that is also implicated in this?

Leonard Hofstadter

Special Circumstances wrote: »

If they can't wave a magic software wand over the latest generation engines already fitted with AdBlue/scr/whatever. .. how are they going to get older engines designed for less stringent regulations in line even with retrofit hardware.

Going on the current vague info it looks like they will be scrapping a lot of cars in the states or shipping them back to Europe where they can smut around all day and none of the environmentalists care.

Exactly, VW withdrawing diesels from sale in the US shows that even the latest supposedly "clean" diesels with all these NOx reducing technologies such as SCR (how much does it cost to get the AdBlue topped up during a service?) are still not clean enough for the US standards, meanwhile petrol engines are still passing without problems. Just goes to show how easy Euro 6 still is for diesel by comparison (and of course this is no surprise as the Euro 6 requirement for NOx emissions on diesels is the same as it was for Euro 4 with petrols).

BoatMad

robbie99 wrote: »

I've read a few reports including the one where they showed that a BMW X5 over the full course of the on the road test complied with the strict US NOx emissions standards (although no doubt you'll point out that over an uphill stage of the test it didn't maintain those standards). So there's no need for BMW to be lying or cheating about NOx in the US.

About Mercedes, I'm sure your talking about CO2 and how their cars are emitting about 50% more CO2 on the road than during the NEDC test.

You need to read the ICCT report on NOX emissions from a range of small euro diesels . This is the report that started everything ! Not the subsequent US tests.

VW are in trouble for emitting up to 4000% times more NOx than allowed to by law in the US. VW have already admitted to cheating to gain certification for their cars in the US by using a software 'defeat device'. This is a violation of US law.

Note VW admitted fitting the defeat software , it has not admitted specifically that it lied during its own in-house EPA conformance testing. CARB actually never managed to make the car ( before or after the 2014 upgrade ) conform to the US tests. No evidence has yet been presented that the software actually worked or made the car compliant. The EPA has " alleged " this , but not presented proof. It's illegal to have any form of defeat device fitted, even of it isn't used or doesn't even work.

The 40 times figures were very specific , the average was exceeded in typically the same fashion as the European tests but doubled as NOX levels are half Euro 6 and 2/3 less then Euro 5

All manufacturers have higher on the road CO2 emissions than the NEDC test and everyone agrees that this is an issue with the NEDC test itself rather falsification of results or cheating. Earlier in this thread you called the tuning that goes on to maximise the NEDC results 'gaming' rather than cheating.

The ICCT report in Europe concentrated on NOX. It did mention that both co2 and litres/km figures were way off too.

The cheating that VW did was showing utter contempt and disregard for US emission regulations and there's no suggestion that other manufacturers cheated to anywhere near the same extent as VW have already admitted to, in the US. As for NOx emissions in Europe, I guess that all manufacturers will get an opportunity over the coming months to justify discrepancies between on the road and Euro 5/6 certification. The NEDC CO2 emissions is a separate and an issue with the test itself.

I'm not apologising for VW. But we need to stick to the known facts not media speculation
ICCT only tested two manufacturers in the US. Primarily because no other Europeans have a diesel presence in NA. The BMW X5 is a bigger Diesel engine and was basically ok for NOX. The main problem is the smaller VW engines it seems . CARB subsequently tested 2 specific VW models , a 2012 gen 1 (NOX trap ) and 2014 gen2 SCR/urea based models

As yet no one has proved VW cheated the compliance tests, that's actually not possible , since you cannot go back in time and rerun the in house compliance tests. However it's noteworthy that EPA has not released that test data from the original certification application ( which is strange ) remember EPA tests are self certified by the manufacturer. There is no actual EPA tests that the EPA perform. ( nor CARB unless prodded into doing so )

It's clear that for several years ,EU regulators know that on road diesels especially in the smaller capacities are breaking NOX emissions and they have ignored it.

Follow the most recent industry pushback on 2017 NEDC on road test proposals and see that manufacturers are arguing for a " compliance factory " of 1.7. ( leaving aside the nonsense of compliance factors itself ) a compliance factor of 1.7 would produce on road emissions greater then Euro 5 lab test levels !

Manufacturers of small diesels in Europe clearly know that , they cannot meet on road testing targets and have been gaming the tests for years ( with the agreement of the regulators ) . This is not VW specific , the game is nearly up for small diesels

robtri

BoatMad wrote: »

You need to read the ICCT report on NOX emissions from a range of small euro diesels . This is the report that started everything ! Not the subsequent US tests.



Note VW admitted fitting the defeat software , it has not admitted specifically that it lied during its own in-house EPA conformance testing. CARB actually never managed to make the car ( before or after the 2014 upgrade ) conform to the US tests. No evidence has yet been presented that the software actually worked or made the car compliant. The EPA has " alleged " this , but not presented proof. It's illegal to have any form of defeat device fitted, even of it isn't used or doesn't even work.

The 40 times figures were very specific , the average was exceeded in typically the same fashion as the European tests but doubled as NOX levels are half Euro 6 and 2/3 less then Euro 5



The ICCT report in Europe concentrated on NOX. It did mention that both co2 and litres/km figures were way off too.



I'm not apologising for VW. But we need to stick to the known facts not media speculation
ICCT only tested two manufacturers in the US. Primarily because no other Europeans have a diesel presence in NA. The BMW X5 is a bigger Diesel engine and was basically ok for NOX. The main problem is the smaller VW engines it seems . CARB subsequently tested 2 specific VW models , a 2012 gen 1 (NOX trap ) and 2014 gen2 SCR/urea based models

As yet no one has proved VW cheated the compliance tests, that's actually not possible , since you cannot go back in time and rerun the in house compliance tests. However it's noteworthy that EPA has not released that test data from the original certification application ( which is strange ) remember EPA tests are self certified by the manufacturer. There is no actual EPA tests that the EPA perform. ( nor CARB unless prodded into doing so )

It's clear that for several years ,EU regulators know that on road diesels especially in the smaller capacities are breaking NOX emissions and they have ignored it.

Follow the most recent industry pushback on 2017 NEDC on road test proposals and see that manufacturers are arguing for a " compliance factory " of 1.7. ( leaving aside the nonsense of compliance factors itself ) a compliance factor of 1.7 would produce on road emissions greater then Euro 5 lab test levels !

Manufacturers of small diesels in Europe clearly know that , they cannot meet on road testing targets and have been gaming the tests for years ( with the agreement of the regulators ) . This is not VW specific , the game is nearly up for small diesels

You work for VAG group????

robbie99

BoatMad wrote: »

No evidence has yet been presented that the software actually worked or made the car compliant. The EPA has " alleged " this , but not presented proof.

But didn't the University that was contracted to do the on-the-road tests not also do the emission testing on the same 3 cars on a dyno 'in the lab'? This was essential to do, to demonstrate that the cars being tested didn't have some other issue, a damaged catalytic converter for example and that they should be capable of passing on the road. I'm not sure what evidence you're looking for because it's pretty clear from the report they showed that the 3 cars were passing tailpipe emissions testing in a lab, but not on the road. VW have already admitted that the software was putting the cars into a dyno mode and this is how they show compliance on a dyno.

BoatMad wrote: »

As yet no one has proved VW cheated the compliance tests

They've already confessed to it.

BoatMad wrote: »

It's clear that for several years ,EU regulators know that on road diesels especially in the smaller capacities are breaking NOX emissions and they have ignored it.

Follow the most recent industry pushback on 2017 NEDC on road test proposals and see that manufacturers are arguing for a " compliance factory " of 1.7. ( leaving aside the nonsense of compliance factors itself ) a compliance factor of 1.7 would produce on road emissions greater then Euro 5 lab test levels !

Manufacturers of small diesels in Europe clearly know that , they cannot meet on road testing targets and have been gaming the tests for years ( with the agreement of the regulators ) . This is not VW specific , the game is nearly up for small diesels

The above is all very true and is scandalous in its own right but this is an issue with lax European regulation rather than cheating by manufacturers.

It seems to me that you can't accept that VW have been caught and that you're trying to smear all manufacturers in a bid to lessen the damage to VW's reputation. Do you sell VWs by chance?

BoatMad

robtri wrote: »

You work for VAG group????

No why. Just relying info from the source documents , EPA letter to VW , CARB. Letter to VW and the two ICCT reports

vectra

They are all at it

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/oct/09/mercedes-honda-mazda-mitsubishi-diesel-emissions-row

robtri

BoatMad wrote: »

No why. Just relying info from the source documents , EPA letter to VW , CARB. Letter to VW and the two ICCT reports

just curious.. that's all..

dashcamdanny

vectra wrote: »

They are all at it

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/oct/09/mercedes-honda-mazda-mitsubishi-diesel-emissions-row

This reminds me of the horse meat scandal.

Although most of the supermarkets sold it, the biggest got nailed up the highest for it.

vectra

dashcamdanny wrote: »

This reminds me of the horse meat scandal.

Although most of the supermarkets sold it, the biggest got nailed up the highest for it.

And the funny thing about it is, I bet most of the members on here ripping VW don't even drive one. I for one couldnt give a toss about it.

This will all blow away and everyone will forget about it, Not as if cars are suddenly going to break down or do 20mpg less.

Special Circumstances

vectra wrote: »

They are all at it

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/oct/09/mercedes-honda-mazda-mitsubishi-diesel-emissions-row

The test is a farce without a doubt. But it seems all these other manufacturers could pass with "optimisations" for the test. It remains to be seen if the vw "defeat device", which was turned on in Europe, was essential to passing tests that other manufacturers could fudge a little on.

Their response to the whole thing so far wouldn't convince even the most naive fanboy that having the defeat device in Europe was just a coincidence, a copy and paste error.

Special Circumstances

vectra wrote: »

And the funny thing about it is, I bet most of the members on here ripping VW don't even drive one. I for one couldnt give a toss about it.

They may not drive one, but I don't see why that should exclude people who think the whole push for "diesel everywhere for everything" is a con, based on fakey wakey "green" science and politics.

BoatMad

Special Circumstances wrote: »

The test is a farce without a doubt. But it seems all these other manufacturers could pass with "optimisations" for the test. It remains to be seen if the vw "defeat device", which was turned on in Europe, was essential to passing tests that other manufacturers could fudge a little on.

Their response to the whole thing so far wouldn't convince even the most naive fanboy that having the defeat device in Europe was just a coincidence, a copy and paste error.

The code would be embedded into the deeper reaches of the ecu code and reaching across several control sub systems. It's easy to see why it would be in all EA 189 engines, even if it wasn't necessary to use it in Europe.

Just to reiterate. No one has actually shown the ea 189 to be compliant with the epa tests. Defeat software or no defeat software.

The whole thing is a smokes screen

In relation to the " tests " you mention are you referring to EPA tests , NEDC or what. There a big difference

Special Circumstances

BoatMad wrote: »

In relation to the " tests " you mention are you referring to EPA tests , NEDC or what. There a big difference

When referring to farcical tests is it? Mostly the nedc, but if as you say no one has ever demonstrated the vw engines in question passing EPA tests then their procedures are suspect too are they not?

How were they ever for sale if what you say is true? Did vw chairman present a letter from his mammy or something?

robbie99

BoatMad wrote: »

Just to reiterate. No one has actually shown the ea 189 to be compliant with the epa tests. Defeat software or no defeat software.

That's not true. The two VWs were tested on a dyno and they both passed the US NOx tests.

robbie99

http://www.theicct.org/news/epas-notice-violation-clean-air-act-volkswagen-press-statement

The two VW vehicles were tested over the FTP-75 certification cycle at California Air Resources Board’s (CARB) El Monte vehicle certification test facility, and their NOx emissions were below the US-EPA Tier2-Bin5 standard.

and

The VW vehicles met the emission standard on FTP-chassis dynamometer tests, which include cold-start NOx emissions. But the on-road emissions testing was performed with the engine and after-treatment in warmed-up condition (i.e. warm/hot start), and the VW vehicle emissions were 5 to 35 times the standards during on-road testing, which did not include cold-start NOx emissions. This inconsistency was a major factor in ICCT's decision to contact CARB and EPA about our test results.

James Delaney

NIMAN wrote: »

Next they will be telling us these mpg figures aren't real either !!

They arn't. Another con job.

James Delaney

@BoatHead.

U must own a VW with all your attempts to justify & clear VW s stance on this issue.

Get over it - VW lied & cheated their customers.
This is perhaps the greatest corporate mess up & customer deceit ever performed.
Their cars (perhaps urs) ave now depreciated.
If you still believe or justify VWs stance, why dont u buy some of their shares.

What a shower a greedy, shower of crocket FRAUDSTERS

John T Carroll

James Delaney wrote: »

@BoatHead.

U must own a VW with all your attempts to justify & clear VW s stance on this issue.

Get over it - VW lied & cheated their customers.
This is perhaps the greatest corporate mess up & customer deceit ever performed.
Their cars (perhaps urs) ave now depreciated.
If you still believe or justify VWs stance, why dont u buy some of their shares.

What a shower a greedy, shower of crocket FRAUDSTERS

I suppose if one sits back for a minute and reflects that its a pretty tall order (and I always thought so) to get a "clean" diesel in a process that has three separate injection sequences (pre,main&post) all with a liquid fuel, in an engine doing 3 or 4K RPM.

Manic Moran

James Delaney wrote: »

They arn't. Another con job.

I'll take that con. EPA says my diesel gets 45mpg(US) on the highway. I routinely hit 50, and not unusually 55.

pa990

Manic Moran wrote: »

I'll take that con. EPA says my diesel gets 45mpg(US) on the highway. I routinely hit 50, and not unusually 55.

And a US gallon is about 3.8L, where a
UK Gallon is 4.54L