EPA says Volkswagen cheated on emissions with 482,000 diesel cars

colm_mcm

I think he's in the U.S?

BoatMad

robbie99 wrote: »

That's not true. The two VWs were tested on a dyno and they both passed the US NOx tests.

There is a discrepancy between the CARB letter to VW and the piece on the ICCT website. Personally I would accept the contents of the letter from CARB . Note also that the ICCT website refers to passing the FTP. Driving test , but full testing requires multiple test suites. The car never passed them all

CARB states it began testing the vehicles as a result of the ICCT report. It letter states

" CARB commenced confirmatory testing on May 6, 2015 to determine the efficacy of the recall on both Gen 1 and Gen 2 vehicles. CARB confirmatory testing was completed on a 2012 model-year Gen 2 VW, test group CVWX02.0U4S, to be followed with Gen 1 testing. CARB staff tested this vehicle on required certification cycles ( FTP , US06 and HWFET) and over-the-road using a Portable Emissions Measurement Systems ( PEMS) on some certification cycles, the recall calibration resulted in the vehicle failing the NOx standard . Over-the-road testing showed the recall calibration did reduce the emissions to some degree, but NOX emissions were higher then expected ( my underlining )

So you can see that after VW seemingly adjusted the engine , specifically the urea additive amounts , some improvements were noted but again , as I have said CARB never stated the engine passed the tests

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

There is a discrepancy between the CARB letter to VW and the piece on the ICCT website. Personally I would accept the contents of the letter from CARB

CARB states it began testing the vehicles as a result of the ICCT report. It letter states

" CARB commenced confirmatory testing on May 6, 2015 to determine the efficacy of the recall on both Gen 1 and Gen 2 vehicles. CARB confirmatory testing was completed on a 2012 model-year Gen 2 VW, test group CVWX02.0U4S, to be followed with Gen 1 testing. CARB staff tested this vehicle on required certification cycles ( FTP , US06 and HWFET) and over-the-road using a Portable Emissions Measurement Systems ( PEMS) on some certification cycles, the recall calibration resulted in the vehicle failing the NOx standard . Over-the-road testing showed the recall calibration did reduce the emissions to some degree, but NOX emissions were higher then expected ( my underlining )

So you can see that after VW seemingly adjusted the engine , specifically the urea additive amounts , some improvements were noted but again , as I have said CARB never stated the engine passed the tests

The confusion lies in the fact that people don't realise that the EPA. Does NOT carry out conformance testing. It accepts the manufacturers assurances that , they performed the EPA test schedule themselves and the data shows the engine was compliant

Since nobody has been able to demonstrate subsequent compliance . The bigger scandal here is that VW seemingly falsified the EPA conformance tests when they introduced the engine into the US market. That's the elephant in the room.

In that regard , there is no evidence that the defeat software actually worked

BoatMad

Here's a well written piece that actually gets to the issues in Europe

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/manufacturing/vw-scandal-why-the-eu-emission-tests-aren-t-fit-for-purpose-1.2366430

vectra

James Delaney wrote: »

@BoatHead.

U must own a VW with all your attempts to justify & clear VW s stance on this issue.

Get over it - VW lied & cheated their customers.
This is perhaps the greatest corporate mess up & customer deceit ever performed.
Their cars (perhaps urs) ave now depreciated.
If you still believe or justify VWs stance, why dont u buy some of their shares.

What a shower a greedy, shower of crocket FRAUDSTERS

How do you know this?
How much was your VW worth before this and how much is it worth now?

The Sidewards Man

vectra wrote: »

How do you know this?

No one expects a Spanish inquisition.

How much was your VW worth before this and how much is it worth now?

Alot alot less along with every one else that owns one.

BoatMad

James Delaney wrote: »

@BoatHead.

U must own a VW with all your attempts to justify & clear VW s stance on this issue.

Get over it - VW lied & cheated their customers.
This is perhaps the greatest corporate mess up & customer deceit ever performed.
Their cars (perhaps urs) ave now depreciated.
If you still believe or justify VWs stance, why dont u buy some of their shares.

What a shower a greedy, shower of crocket FRAUDSTERS

I drive a 2.5l nissan navara pickup truck lol, never owned a German car in my life.

You obviously have no interest in actually discovering what happened , and just regurgitate irish Mirror headlines

You've taken no time to actually read the source documents or even my summary of them.

Nor have I apologised for VW , I've repeatedly sad I believe the defeat software is a smoke screen , a sacrificial lamb , covering up the fact that VW lied on the original compliance test, it had an engine that couldn't pass EPA limits and it knew it.

In Europe , however , the limits and the NEDC tests are much much less stringent, we have yet to see NEDC data suggesting the cars pass or fail

Why would you think the cars are depreciated , anyone's VW is the same today as it was a month ago. 2nd hand sales, no one gives a sh1t about emissions and the the tax bracket will not change for existing cars.

You really need to read something other then a few red -tops spouting ill informed nonsense.

BoatMad

The Sidewards Man wrote: »

Alto alot less along with every one else that owns one.

Where is the evidence to suggest that. No doubt if you walk into a VW garage today, they'll do the same deal they did a month ago

I can't see what's the logic in suggesting " worth a lot less " is coming from , do people like sh1ting on themselves

BoatMad

I've mentioned this before , unlike the US , the situation in Europe remains very confused , and will do so , until the NEDC tests are re -run

Oct 8 Volkswagen said it is still examining whether and to what extent its cheating software installed in about 8 million cars in Europe functions illegally.

VW said on Thursday it is still unclear whether the emissions-control software was illegal under European rules but added the software is capable of recognising whether cars are undergoing laboratory dynamometer testing.

Germany's Sueddeutsche Zeitung reported earlier on Thursday that the software used to rig emissions tests in the United States was also switched on in diesel cars in Europe, citing a company spokesman.

"We are working intensely on technical solutions," a VW spokesman said in response to the report. "For that reason, questions posed at this point of time are speculative." (Reporting by Andreas Cremer; editing by David Stamp)

vectra

The Sidewards Man wrote: »

No one expects a Spanish inquisition.



Alot alot less along with every one else that owns one.

Show me the evidence of this.
Or are you another one "Hunting with the hounds"

Special Circumstances

BoatMad wrote: »

I've mentioned this before , unlike the US , the situation in Europe remains very confused , and will do so , until the NEDC tests are re -run

Oct 8 Volkswagen said it is still examining whether and to what extent its cheating software installed in about 8 million cars in Europe functions illegally.

VW said on Thursday it is still unclear whether the emissions-control software was illegal under European rules but added the software is capable of recognising whether cars are undergoing laboratory dynamometer testing.

Germany's Sueddeutsche Zeitung reported earlier on Thursday that the software used to rig emissions tests in the United States was also switched on in diesel cars in Europe, citing a company spokesman.

"We are working intensely on technical solutions," a VW spokesman said in response to the report. "For that reason, questions posed at this point of time are speculative." (Reporting by Andreas Cremer; editing by David Stamp)

Agree 100% that there is massive confusion and it has dragged on way too long imo. I wonder why.




There must be a lot of people wishing this would just drop out of the news. It's shining a light on a lot of things Europe would prefer stayed in the shadows - the potential of euro6 being giving a fudge factor to make it less strict than euro5 is major lolz. (And kinda pulls the rug from under anyone claiming diesels are a clean, environmental , responsible choice for all types of use)

BoatMad

Special Circumstances wrote: »

Agree 100% that there is massive confusion and it has dragged on way too long imo. I wonder why.




There must be a lot of people wishing this would just drop out of the news. It's shining a light on a lot of things Europe would prefer stayed in the shadows - the potential of euro6 being giving a fudge factor to make it less strict than euro5 is major lolz. (And kinda pulls the rug from under anyone claiming diesels are a clean, environmental , responsible choice for all types of use)

I agree. In the the EPA can be seen to be whiter then white ( especially since they didn't cop the issues themselves ) and be seen to crucify VW USA , as diesels are 0.02 % of passanger cars. I wouldn't be surprised in VW gave all gen 1 owners a new VW in the end.

In Europe , it's a proverbial mess, regulators knew and know, that ALL on road small diesels are polluting to a higher degree then the tests and the consequences of clamping down on diesels would be ecomonically catastrophic, hence the current VW " let's do something to be been to be doing something " engineering fix.

Ie

1. Is the EA189 Euro 5 compliant , and if so where is the proof

2. Has this test being rerun , with the software removed to see what the test difference is

3. Did in fact the defeat software do anything !

4. What exactly is the purpose of the fixes being proposed in Europe.


Reading now, I personally think two situations are at play

A. Radically, I beleive the defeat software was never included specifically for the USA , it was included to fool the EU NEDC . ( which is performed by third parties )

B. The defeat software never made the car compliant in the US. VW simply cheated and effectively forged compliance ( remember this is done in house by the manufacturers ) ,

c. The software ended up in the USA cars by default as USA variants are a tiny percentage of total VW production

Fiskar

Question: How quickly will the NCT or could the NCT change to test for Nox and to check for DPFs?


http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/motoring/motoring-news/diesel-cars-illegally-pump-out-dangerous-pollutants-after-garages-remove-filters-designed-to-cut-a6689191.html

robbiew

Special Circumstances

robbiew wrote: »

I wouldn't take that video as proof of anything but that they didn't know what they were at.

I'd like to see a 4 wheel run versus a proper "defeat mode" run.

BoatMad

Oh god not the muppets test a VW video again

They just created a abs fault and the car reduced power to the wheels.

Muppet video

You can't switch on and off the software by pressing the abs mode button !!

And they did no NOX tests

Double red neck muppets

BoatMad

Fiskar wrote: »

Question: How quickly will the NCT or could the NCT change to test for Nox and to check for DPFs?


http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/motoring/motoring-news/diesel-cars-illegally-pump-out-dangerous-pollutants-after-garages-remove-filters-designed-to-cut-a6689191.html

NCT is based on European on road testing directives

If they changed the NCT test to actually test to Euro 5 standards , every diesel in Ireland would fail. The test limits are set up for a lab test , specific driving cycle only. They are meaningless on the road or in a NCT test centre , where the tech just revs the engine

Special Circumstances

BoatMad wrote: »

I agree. In the the EPA can be seen to be whiter then white ( especially since they didn't cop the issues themselves ) and be seen to crucify VW USA , as diesels are 0.02 % of passanger cars. I wouldn't be surprised in VW gave all gen 1 owners a new VW in the end.

In Europe , it's a proverbial mess, regulators knew and know, that ALL on road small diesels are polluting to a higher degree then the tests and the consequences of clamping down on diesels would be ecomonically catastrophic, hence the current VW " let's do something to be been to be doing something " engineering fix.

Ie

1. Is the EA189 Euro 5 compliant , and if so where is the proof

2. Has this test being rerun , with the software removed to see what the test difference is

3. Did in fact the defeat software do anything !

4. What exactly is the purpose of the fixes being proposed in Europe.


Reading now, I personally think two situations are at play

A. Radically, I beleive the defeat software was never included specifically for the USA , it was included to fool the EU NEDC . ( which is performed by third parties )

B. The defeat software never made the car compliant in the US. VW simply cheated and effectively forged compliance ( remember this is done in house by the manufacturers ) ,

c. The software ended up in the USA cars by default as USA variants are a tiny percentage of total VW production

If A is true... wow the repurcussions could* be orders of magnitude beyond the current problem of "a few" cars in a country that never embraced diesel anyway.


*should be at least.
But would every European country pass on the evaded taxes, with environmental penalties to VW? Would they recalculate taxes for those cars going forward? Would those cars be excluded from urban areas?
Are VW just too big to fail?

Who else would be implicated if a proper investigation was carried out?? Would the EU just rewrite all the regs and pretend it never happened?

Diesel fanboys, untwist yer knickers - this is speculation based on BoatMads theory. We wouldn't even be throwing these kind of ideas around if a proper plausible response had been made to the current situation. And well, if diesel engines weren't filthy horrible noisy things that wouldn't hurt either I suppose.

dr.fuzzenstein

Fiskar wrote: »

Question: How quickly will the NCT or could the NCT change to test for Nox and to check for DPFs?


http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/motoring/motoring-news/diesel-cars-illegally-pump-out-dangerous-pollutants-after-garages-remove-filters-designed-to-cut-a6689191.html

Wow, shoddy witch hunt red top hysterical journalism of the highest order. Is the UK independent some kind of cheese rag or fish and chip wrapper?
The article dealt with DPF removal, not the NOX emissions scandal, and yet they managed to drop VW into that article three times.
Those are two entirely separate issues, the article reads like the "journalist" writes scripts for EastEnders and this is his hobby.

BoatMad

Special Circumstances wrote: »

If A is true... wow the repurcussions could* be orders of magnitude beyond the current problem of "a few" cars in a country that never embraced diesel anyway.


*should be at least.
But would every European country pass on the evaded taxes, with environmental penalties to VW? Would they recalculate taxes for those cars going forward? Would those cars be excluded from urban areas?
Are VW just too big to fail?

Who else would be implicated if a proper investigation was carried out?? Would the EU just rewrite all the regs and pretend it never happened?

Diesel fanboys, untwist yer knickers - this is speculation based on BoatMads theory. We wouldn't even be throwing these kind of ideas around if a proper plausible response had been made to the current situation. And well, if diesel engines weren't filthy horrible noisy things that wouldn't hurt either I suppose.

This I think is the real scandal. VW cheating NEDC. ( and the Germans know it, VW tests in Germany by the way , for EU tests , in general)

It's corporate malfeasance on a grand scale

BoatMad

But would every European country pass on the evaded taxes, with environmental penalties to VW? Would they recalculate taxes for those cars going forward? Would those cars be excluded from urban areas?
Are VW just too big to fail?

Who else would be implicated if a proper investigation was carried out?? Would the EU just rewrite all the regs and pretend it never happened?

Yup, thems the big questions

BigEejit

In that independent article it mentions 5 cars meet real world emissions limits. What cars were they? all BMW's?

BoatMad

BigEejit wrote: »

In that independent article it mentions 5 cars meet real world emissions limits. What cars were they? all BMW's?

There is several confusing issues

In the ICCT study done previous on CO2 emissions , ICCT names the cars


In the NOX tests in Europe , ICCT did NOT specifically indemnify the cars manufacturers


Here's the CO2 data summary

Long Time Lurker

As a side note to all this: Lovers of the brand in here are acting like some sort of corporate bewitched army, like defenders of the realm, like this really matters to them. A personal onslaught if you will. The lack of clarity and inability to define unbiased personal option versus actual facts (a big company lied through its teeth) is bizzare given that so much of it is predicated on the back of some sort of an emotional personal connection with what is simply a huge company. Get over your Golfs and Passats. They're just cars :-)

BoatMad

Long Time Lurker wrote: »

As a side note to all this: Lovers of the brand in here are acting like some sort of corporate bewitched army, like defenders of the realm, like this really matters to them. A personal onslaught if you will. The lack of clarity and inability to define unbiased personal option versus actual facts (a big company lied through its teeth) is bizzare given that so much of it is predicated on the back of some sort of an emotional personal connection with what is simply a huge company. Get over your Golfs and Passats. They're just cars :-)

who is defending the brand here , Im not certainly . I think most people accept that VW lied , the issue is where there real lie is and what it is , Europe or the US. The other issue is are all the car companies ( and the EU regulator lying ) ( which they are )

bazz26

Long Time Lurker wrote: »

As a side note to all this: Lovers of the brand in here are acting like some sort of corporate bewitched army, like defenders of the realm, like this really matters to them. A personal onslaught if you will. The lack of clarity and inability to define unbiased personal option versus actual facts (a big company lied through its teeth) is bizzare given that so much of it is predicated on the back of some sort of an emotional personal connection with what is simply a huge company. Get over your Golfs and Passats. They're just cars :-)

And they are the same Golfs and Passats that did the same job for their owners 2 weeks ago as they do today but yet we have drama queens with wild hysteria coming out of the woodwork now telling us "think of the children", "what about the environment?" and "they lied to us, the shock".

BoatMad

bazz26 wrote: »

And they are the same Golfs and Passats that did the same job for their owners 2 weeks ago as they do today but yet we have drama queens with wild hysteria coming out of the woodwork now telling us "think of the children", "what about the environment?" and "they lied to us, the shock".

absolutely correct , on-road emission from all diesel vehicles have been increasing as a result of tighter regulations , The hysteria 1s a function of newspapers/media and people trying to cover up whats really going on ( lynch party process etc ) , i.e. regulators and manufactures. The trouble is once you realise the Wizard of Oz ( emissions controls) are intact a little weedly man ( NEDC tests ) , its hard to go back to believing

the truth is the , tests are tighter but the cars are not. ( particularly true for Lean NOx Traps, and less so for SCR/Urea)

The actual worst case is driving a cold diesel around a town , incredible levels of pollution result

James Delaney

BoatMad wrote: »

I drive a 2.5l nissan navara pickup truck lol, never owned a German car in my life.

You obviously have no interest in actually discovering what happened , and just regurgitate irish Mirror headlines

You've taken no time to actually read the source documents or even my summary of them.

Nor have I apologised for VW , I've repeatedly sad I believe the defeat software is a smoke screen , a sacrificial lamb , covering up the fact that VW lied on the original compliance test, it had an engine that couldn't pass EPA limits and it knew it.

In Europe , however , the limits and the NEDC tests are much much less stringent, we have yet to see NEDC data suggesting the cars pass or fail

Why would you think the cars are depreciated , anyone's VW is the same today as it was a month ago. 2nd hand sales, no one gives a sh1t about emissions and the the tax bracket will not change for existing cars.

You really need to read something other then a few red -tops spouting ill informed nonsense.

You will find many Yanks bought their VWs for their Green credentials & yes the VW cars will depreciate faster than b4- no longer will VW be able to charge their fanciful premium prices r brand their cars as the best in class - why do you think their share price is down 40%. ??? Why are VW cutting their costs = Workforce - cas they wont be assembling as many cars as b4. Also I doubt the footfall in VW showrooms in the last 2 wks was anything near before their deceitful ways came to light. Brand Image is everything - VWs is in the mire.

So much for nonsense - Economics says it all & Customer Confidence. Simply, Supply & Demand - Its called equlibrium & VW cars are no longer in great demand, while their stock yards are cramed with them.

gk5000

Was in a few used car dealers yesterday - lots of VW's in stock and I can't see them shifting except at a discount, and/or the smoke clears.

But they'll probably jack up other cars to cover their losses if that happens.
Or maybe VW will replace all cars/engines - who knows?

colm_mcm

Nobody's talking about this story anymore.