EPA says Volkswagen cheated on emissions with 482,000 diesel cars

BoatMad

Still doesn't change the fact that, despite protestations to the contrary, it is having an affect and a big one at that.

I think everyone excepts that , shortterm it will have some effect on both new prices and therefore used values . Dealers will know that they will have to discount to shift new stock and as a corollary , lower used prices

Over time as the issue rights itself , this should play out and normal service will resume

Long Time Lurker

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

So you found a dishonest, unscrupulous dealer that is using underhanded scare tactics to try and screw you for as much as they can possibly get out of a potentially clueless and worried consumer. Bravo that man. Would be nice if you named this scamster so the rest of us can avoid him.

Ah come on .....

Tell me did they paint you green when you were coming down in the last shower or were you always that colour.

Get a grip

dr.fuzzenstein

Long Time Lurker wrote: »

Ah come on .....

Tell me did they paint you green when you were coming down in the last shower or were you always that colour.

Get a grip

I understand your sentiment but I can't place the green reference.
Would that be envious, environmentally concerned or Hulk? I don't think either applies.

mickdw

I would have laughed in that dealers face tbh.

robbie99

Green can mean innocense, naive, novice...

gctest50

BoatMad wrote: »

...............

Over time as the issue rights itself , this should play out and normal service will resume

didn't last long

Regulators Investigating 2nd VW Computer Program on Emissions

WASHINGTON — Federal and California regulators have begun an investigation into a second computer program in Volkswagen’s diesel cars that also affects the operation of the cars’ emission controls.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/09/business/international/vw-diesel-emissions-scandal-congressional-hearing.html?_r=0

FortySeven

“This was not a corporate decision,” Mr. Horn said. “This was something individuals did.” His comments echoed recent statements by Volkswagen’s new chief executive, Matthias Müller, who said that only a few employees at the company had been aware of the cheating.

Who are they kidding? They didn't get to be one of the largest car makers in the world running a business without oversight. What a load of cobblers.

BoatMad

gctest50 wrote: »

didn't last long

old news, VW have a AECD on the 2016 models and they have specifically disclosed this to prevent any issue with 2016 certification

"Volkswagen and regulators declined to say whether this software was intended to defeat emissions control tests, like the software that the automaker already admitted last month that it had installed in 11 million diesel cars since the 2009 model year."
...
“What we don’t know yet is if the 2016 A.E.C.D. is also a defeat device, or is a device that meets the guidance previously given by E.P.A.,” said John German, a senior fellow specializing in emissions and efficiency technology at the International Council on Clean Transportation, the nonprofit group that first noticed that the real-world emissions of Volkswagen diesels in the United States were far above regulatory limits.

BoatMad

FortySeven wrote: »

Who are they kidding? They didn't get to be one of the largest car makers in the world running a business without oversight. What a load of cobblers.

absolutly, Horn statement to the congressional hearing was a disgrace

to paraphase

" its was all them guys in Wolfsburg"

" three lads in engineering caused 20 million vehicles to have this software "

" i know nothing "

" Im not technical"

" Its all them guys in Wolfbergs fault'

" Im so sorry, I cant sleep at night worrying about dealers margin " ( WTF)

Special Circumstances

Either this guy views coding as some sort of black magic, or he hopes joe average does, but this idea that a few rogue software engineers did this without making anyone else on the project suspicious????

I don't believe anyone competent would implement that workaround unless there was pretty much a gun to peoples heads after months of trying to get these engines to match competitors.

"Ah sure software like, you wouldn't know what they'd be at, you can't check it like"... Lolz

BoatMad

Special Circumstances wrote: »

Either this guy views coding as some sort of black magic, or he hopes joe average does, but this idea that a few rogue software engineers did this without making anyone else on the project suspicious????

I don't believe anyone competent would implement that workaround unless there was pretty much a gun to peoples heads after months of trying to get these engines to match competitors.

"Ah sure software like, you wouldn't know what they'd be at, you can't check it like"... Lolz

It's very clear from the ICCT European report that VW gen1 ( lean NOX trap) is very poor at real world NOX reduction. It's not surprising when faced with the USA teir 2 bin5 emissions limits on NOX , they were never going to get compliance ( or rather claim compliance ) without cheating.

With gen2 they had some chance, but to be effective power is given away.

As I said before , the defeat software is a red herring , a sacrificial lamb, the major malfeasance , is that VW obviously knew the gen1 model in particular would not pass the EPA compliance and just cheated and said it did. That wasn't a decision by three guys in a corner.

It will be a nightmare to make gen 1 compliant , it will require replacing the LNT , with SCR , adding a urea tank, Reprogramming ECUs and changes to power and co2 rates. That's of its works at all.

Nightmare stuff, I'd say in the US it will be cheaper to take gen1 back and give the punter a gen 3 car

colm_mcm

Lol


http://cars.donedeal.ie/cars-for-sale/volkswagen-golf-we-take-in-vw-s/10604265?offset=1

Volkswagen Golf WE Take IN Vw s

IF YOU OWN A VW DONT DESPAIR ITS NOT ALL THAT BAD WE TRADE VW'S AND ITS A CHANCE TO OWN THE EXCEPTIONAL QUALITY OF KIA.SOLD SOLD SOLD 13 (2013)

Last updated: 11/10/2015

James Delaney

BoatMad wrote: »

I think everyone excepts that , shortterm it will have some effect on both new prices and therefore used values . Dealers will know that they will have to discount to shift new stock and as a corollary , lower used prices

Over time as the issue rights itself , this should play out and normal service will resume

It may play out over time AFTER THE PROB IS FIXED, But for VWs 2009 - 2015 I wouln't touch 1. Heavy Discounts on the way for VWs even after ders a fix. They will not rebuild trust in jig time -,Its going to cost them & it will take yrs for people / customers to forget their scam.

Stallingrad

James Delaney wrote: »

It may play out over time AFTER THE PROB IS FIXED, But for VWs 2009 - 2015 I wouln't touch 1. Heavy Discounts on the way for VWs even after ders a fix. They will not rebuild trust in jig time -,Its going to cost them & it will take yrs for people / customers to forget their scam.

100%. Who would buy an affected car knowing full well the fix is not yet finalized, the performance, economy, pollutant levels post repair not yet known, and the resale up in the air. In time this will all become clear but for now you'd be off your head to buy one unless it was a killer deal.

BoatMad

Stallingrad wrote: »

100%. Who would buy an affected car knowing full well the fix is not yet finalized, the performance, economy, pollutant levels post repair not yet known, and the resale up in the air. In time this will all become clear but for now you'd be off your head to buy one unless it was a killer deal.

I would and I wouldn't go near the recall , NOx levels me Ar$e

Ron Burgundy II

BoatMad wrote: »

I would and I wouldn't go near the recall , NOx levels me Ar$e

I'm thinking along the same lines as you BoatMad, NOx levels don't determine the tax branding and thus I don't think I'll get the recall carried out. Also not sure if this has come up here on this thread but the BBC carried out a test on a Euro 5 vw Passat and a euro 6 Ford Focus. Passat according to the test was 4 times over the allowed limit in terms of NOx, while the Focus which must comply with a more tighter standard was five times above the permitted NOx emissions.

The Ford has to comply with a reduced NOx value but doesn't. VW got caught but other car companies certainly are not complying with the test in terms of real life driving.

On a side note, the Passat came close to its advertised MPG for urban driving, from memory it should be 47 MPG while on the test it achieved 44 MPG. While the Ford claimed to do 60+ MPG and actually turned out to be 44MPG. Which to most Irish motorist is a more important factor than that of the NOX levels that a car emits.

I'll find the link and post if this hasn't been noted before.

Note: Figures on MPG are from memory but what I do know is that that the ford quoted figures didn't come near to the actual test carried out by the BBC.

Marcusm

BoatMad wrote: »

I would and I wouldn't go near the recall , NOx levels me Ar$e

Have you heard that the 1.6 TDI needs an injector fix and not just software?

BoatMad

Marcusm wrote: »

Have you heard that the 1.6 TDI needs an injector fix and not just software?

I wouldn't beleive anything being talked about fixes at the moment. The whole issues is confused with the fixes for USA.

Anyway don't bring your car to the recall. It's not mandatory. Hey presto no injector fix

vectra

Who cares what needs to be done?
it will all be free, I can see people getting offered new injectors and other work costing quite a lots of money normally but Totally free on a car that probably has 100k on it, refusing the work LOL
All this discussion is getting boring to be honest.
They are going to be fixed,
I have no idea where people get the notion their car is going to be less bhp or use more fuel. That simply wont happen.
Drive on lads and forget it ever happened.

Marcusm

BoatMad wrote: »

I wouldn't beleive anything being talked about fixes at the moment. The whole issues is confused with the fixes for USA.

Anyway don't bring your car to the recall. It's not mandatory. Hey presto no injector fix

It was stated by VW UK's chief executive when giving evidence to a committee of the House of Commons. On that basis, I would see it as conclusive although, as you say, not mandatory. It's just underscoring the expenses for VW. As the cost of rectification mounts up and is added to the effective funding restrictions and additional costs placed on VW, I think you can pretty much guarantee that it is going to have a serious impact on a lot of their projects such as Bugatti (effectively a black hole "halo" project) and investment in new vehicles - this may simply mean fewer (increasingly confusing) new niche models. If it delays the launch of new core products, they will be in more serious trouble.

BoatMad

Marcusm wrote: »

It was stated by VW UK's chief executive when giving evidence to a committee of the House of Commons. On that basis, I would see it as conclusive although, as you say, not mandatory. It's just underscoring the expenses for VW. As the cost of rectification mounts up and is added to the effective funding restrictions and additional costs placed on VW, I think you can pretty much guarantee that it is going to have a serious impact on a lot of their projects such as Bugatti (effectively a black hole "halo" project) and investment in new vehicles - this may simply mean fewer (increasingly confusing) new niche models. If it delays the launch of new core products, they will be in more serious trouble.

Given no one has retested anything in Europe, I fail to see how solutions are being thrown about like confetti

Tea 1000

James Delaney wrote: »

U must b joking - Its the biggest corporate f up in history. U must b very innocent or uneducated.

It's not even close to the biggest corporate fk up in history! Not even close. :rolleyes:

Long Time Lurker wrote: »

No, not a thing! How it even made the news I dont know! :-)

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/oct/11/eu-bank-could-demand-loans-back-from-vw?CMP=twt_gu

That's one stupid article. Someone must be taking the píss... How can they tell exactly which of the money spent was from them?!
It's all a big game for Europe to show the world that they're taking this seriously and send out the right noises. Germany will look after Germany, and as a by-product, Europe.
Seriously, I haven't heard one person (VW owner or not) talking about this in the last few days outside this thread. People have begun to forget already.

Special Circumstances

Software engineers are talking about it, it's all part of their plan to take over the world by stealth haha

BoatMad

Special Circumstances wrote: »

Software engineers are talking about it, it's all part of their plan to take over the world by stealth haha

You're right , let me tell you our secret pla&* ** 98-(- _ 909-9 9((((- __ - 99 what the hell my computer wont 939u488239 09-2093

Marcusm

BoatMad wrote: »

Given no one has retested anything in Europe, I fail to see how solutions are being thrown about like confetti

You're astonishingly naive about the corporate world if you think those are being cast around like confetti. I will bet that every word of what the US and UK CEOs have stated to their respective parliaments have been vetted to the hilt and tailored for their audiences. Whether an injector fix is necessary from an engineering perspectivewill be irrelevant. Likewise the US CEO's comments about dealer margin are likewise necessary in a marketplace where dealerships are more powerful and where VW is a niche player wishing to make the mainstream.

They have been in 14 months of discussion with the EPA and Californian authorities which will have allowed them to create alternative strategies to announce depending on what the public reaction has been.

Likewise, the financial effects are immense. Leaving aside the cost per unit of the recall; VW bonds are no longer eligible ECB collateral meaning their funding will be more costly and substantially constrained. Equity funding to rebalance the balance sheet is going to be complex because of the share price falls and the unusual shareholder base. Qatar will want a lot more influence to put up more cash, Porsche/Piech families are unlikely to have the liquid resources and Lower Saxony is constrained by state aid rules. None of these will want to be diluted in a cash call so that means downsizing (hence the worry over costly German jobs) and reducing investment in niche/new products.

All in all that means a very much changed VW group in the future, effectively rules out an Audi F1 team but will probably not mean that much to a mid spec Golf, Octavia or A4 driver. Those will continue to be made, continue to operate as before but VW as a group des not have the freedom of action into the future.

RedorDead

Listen to Paul Willis - head of VW UK talk to parliament about it here:

Main takeaway from this to me is - no change in emissions or performance from software updates has been tasked to engineers.

http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/205c2a9a-37c5-404f-9d32-0ecdc8d31ed6

pippip

Leonardo DiCaprio's production company has acquired the film rights to a book proposal about Volkswagen's clean diesel scandal.

Publishing rights for the as-yet-untitled book sold earlier this month for six figures to the Norton publishing house, New York literary agency Marly Rusoff said.

The book is expected to investigate how a "more, better, faster" ethos fuelled one of the greatest frauds in corporate history.

Brilliant! That's a lot of money being dropped on a "storm in a teacup".

http://news.sky.com/story/1568710/dicaprio-plans-to-make-volkswagen-scandal-film

MuppetCheck

Talk about boring bloody movie.

colm_mcm

Bit like the one about a woman who spilt coffee on herself in McDonald's.

Deedsie

MuppetCheck wrote: »

Talk about boring bloody movie.

I think DiCaprio's film company produced Cowspiracy. I wonder could they incorporate it into that.

Emissions, global warming etc...