EPA says Volkswagen cheated on emissions with 482,000 diesel cars

BoatMad

Amprodude wrote: »

You spend x amount of money on a brand new vw or second hand vw and then this emerges. It's the buyers who will be slaughtered in the end not the rich executives of VW. I won't be buying another car with that vw logo on it that's for sure.

why, I dont get this, the car is the same today as it was a month ago

JohnBoy26

BoatMad wrote: »

why, I dont get this, the car is the same today as it was a month ago

They car may be but it's image isn't.

Toyotafanboi

BoatMad wrote: »

why, I dont get this, the car is the same today as it was a month ago

But it's name has been tarnished and with VW's (joking aside) the main way they commanded such a premium was through their perception of excellent engineering. This is all thrown into doubt now as far as the general consumer is concerned. The car physically is the same as a month ago but peoples perceptions of it have altered, which will have a knock on effect on their value, maybe not with enthusiasts but certainly with the average punter.

BoatMad

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

They car may be but it's image isn't.

since we have no real feedback as to whether there has been any devaluation in the warped minds of the unknowing public, who are trading in VWs, we surely cannot conclude anything at the moment

vectra

Amprodude wrote: »

You spend x amount of money on a brand new vw or second hand vw and then this emerges. It's the buyers who will be slaughtered in the end not the rich executives of VW. I won't be buying another car with that vw logo on it that's for sure.

BoatMad wrote: »

why, I dont get this, the car is the same today as it was a month ago

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

But it's name has been tarnished and with VW's (joking aside) the main way they commanded such a premium was through their perception of excellent engineering. This is all thrown into doubt now as far as the general consumer is concerned. The car physically is the same as a month ago but peoples perceptions of it have altered, which will have a knock on effect on their value, maybe not with enthusiasts but certainly with the average punter.

Nothing short of speculation.
There is zero evidence that the cars have devalued in any shape of form.

And I sincerely doubt it will have any effect on them. They are still a good car as they were a month ago. Nothing has changed.

368100

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

They car may be but it's image isn't.

In fairness I'm driving a VW which is affected and I haven't had one person comment on it's now "tarnished" image. And when I've brought up the subject they couldn't seem less interested.

Toyotafanboi

vectra wrote: »

Nothing short of speculation.
There is zero evidence that the cars have devalued in any shape of form.

And I sincerely doubt it will have any effect on them. They are still a good car as they were a month ago. Nothing has changed.

But as we just said, in terms of perception, everything has changed and it'd brand perception that matters the most.

It's basic consumerism. What do you think happens when consumers lose confidence in a product?

Yes, there isn't much specific precedent for situations like this in the auto industry but it doesn't take a sceintist. I mean it's no coincidence that VW's share prices dropped by a third overnight.

I know you may be in denial because you've just invested in one, but the value of a product doesn't rise when it turns out to be of a lower quality than described, whether it be a can of beans or a VW Golf.

BoatMad

It's basic consumerism. What do you think happens when consumers lose confidence in a product?

too soon to see any evidence of that

I mean it's no coincidence that VW's share prices dropped by a third overnight.

and recovered somewhat , but share price and confidence of consumers in the cars is very different

I know you may be in denial because you've just invested in one, but the value of a product doesn't rise when it turns out to be of a lower quality than described, whether it be a can of beans or a VW Golf.

LOL, i own a Nissan Navara pickup truck ! , and Im buying a Nissan Leaf in 2016 !. Never owned a german car in my lifetime

vectra

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

But as we just said, in terms of perception, everything has changed and it'd brand perception that matters the most.

It's basic consumerism. What do you think happens when consumers lose confidence in a product?

Yes, there isn't much specific precedent for situations like this in the auto industry but it doesn't take a sceintist. I mean it's no coincidence that VW's share prices dropped by a third overnight.

I know you may be in denial because you've just invested in one, but the value of a product doesn't rise when it turns out to be of a lower quality than described, whether it be a can of beans or a VW Golf.

Nothing at all to the fact I have bought another VW car, and as it happens mine falls outside this issue,

No disrespect to the fact that drive a Toyota but in fairness I would feel a lot safer in a car the is not true to Nox emissions than drive something that could kill me when the steering lock up while driving.Can you tell us with all the Toyotas SAFETY recalls that they have had over the years, How much has it devalued their cars and how far down the sales scale are they because of this?

Has it affected consumer confidence as you put it?

mickdw

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

It would be insanely stupid to inspect every single vehicle if the same procedure is carried out on them. Some solicitor looking for free publicity by making idiotic statements.

I agree it would be stupid to attempt to inspect reach vehicle specially as I'm not sure anyone would know what they were actually inspecting. Still I believe that owners availing of independent professional advice is a reasonable request.
If for example vw send out a letter stating that they are going to do x, y and z to your car, it is reasonable that the owner could get independent advice to clarify whether there is likely to be an effect on overall performance, efficiency or indeed reliability.
Going away from the idea of each owner getting a solicitor etc and hiring an engineer, if one owner was to follow through with this, get a professional opinion that perhaps reliability might be reduced due to additional working of the emissions control systems etc after the recall, well I think a settlement would be the order of the day.

JohnBoy26

368100 wrote: »

In fairness I'm driving a VW which is affected and I haven't had one person comment on it's now "tarnished" image. And when I've brought up the subject they couldn't seem less interested.

Did you try to trade it in?

gctest50

BoatMad wrote: »

sheesh

firstly the recall isn't mandatory in Ireland or the UK,

secondly the car isn't devalued, what has changed today from a month ago. ?

If you " feel " the software is devaluing it, one of the key issues in the recall is that VW will remove it.

I love the complete bullSh!ttery, thats suggest an " engineer" can determine changes to the ECU . Given that Bosch and VW are NEVER going to release the source code, of the ECU.................

BoatMad wrote: »

sheesh

firstly the recall isn't mandatory in Ireland or the UK,.......

a few lines added to a car insurance application sorts that :

Has your car had the latest shiny software update by an Official Dealer ?

Yes [ ]
No [ ]

Do you agree not to install any spurious software, or devices to alter fuelling/timing/ etc etc ?

Yes [ ]
No [ ]

( or whatever the proper legalese for all that kinda thing would be )

BoatMad wrote: »

I love the complete bullSh!ttery, thats suggest an " engineer" can determine changes to the ECU ....

easy :

stick the yoke on a dyno w/logging

log injector duration, rail pressure, revs, load etc - do runs until you have gathered enough data

pull the injectors n suss their rate

apply update and do it all again

loads more ways to do it


petrol stuff but anyway :

Truckermal

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

Did you try to trade it in?

We have a 151 A4 and its affected but I couldn't give two hoots about especially as I don't have to drive it but we will be buying another new one in 2017 but probably not diesel.

368100

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

Did you try to trade it in?

No. i guess your point is that a dealer will offer me a lot less for it now?

Of course some dealers are going to try and take unfair advantage of the situation to increase their margins, does it mean it's warranted? Not at all.

As another poster has rightly pointed out, did toyotas drop in value due to numerous serious safety concerns, no, but I'm sure some dealers tried to use it to their advantage.

JohnBoy26

vectra wrote: »

Nothing at all to the fact I have bought another VW car, and as it happens mine falls outside this issue,

No disrespect to the fact that drive a Toyota but in fairness I would feel a lot safer in a car the is not true to Nox emissions than drive something that could kill me when the steering lock up while driving.Can you tell us with all the Toyotas SAFETY recalls that they have had over the years, How much has it devalued their cars and how far down the sales scale are they because of this?

Has it affected consumer confidence as you put it?

What 2015 toyota is affected by a steering lock issue? I see none. One model in america was recalled years ago for a potential safety issue that could arise with the lock but that was on 00-04 models. Did this issue actually occur on any car? I see non reported.

You're comparing apples and oranges tbh. You're trying to compare the image of a company who never intended to put a defective lock in a car(these things happen no one is perfect) and then came back years later when they realised there was a problem and honestly admitted their error and corrected it. (No harm done to their rep in this instance),

To the image of a company who with intent went out to decieve the authorities and more importantly their customers with products that were suppose to be something they are not. A company who has criminal charges being brought against it and it's offices raided on what is now becoming a daily basis.

Toyotafanboi

368100 wrote: »

No. i guess your point is that a dealer will offer me a lot less for it now?

Of course some dealers are going to try and take unfair advantage of the situation to increase their margins, does it mean it's warranted? Not at all.

You said it yourself, it's going to happen. We aren't discussing whether it's warranted or not, just whether or not it will happen.

JohnBoy26

368100 wrote: »

No. i guess your point is that a dealer will offer me a lot less for it now?

Of course some dealers are going to try and take unfair advantage of the situation to increase their margins, does it mean it's warranted? Not at all.

As another poster has rightly pointed out, did toyotas drop in value due to numerous serious safety concerns, no, but I'm sure some dealers tried to use it to their advantage.

The poster above made a ridiculous comparison to suit their argument. Toyota's recalls were based on rectifying unintentional potential safety issues. These types of recalls aren't confined to toyota. They happen throughout the industry.

Volkswagens problem is based around decieving authorities and customers and now with massive fines, a massive recall, and potential criminal proceedings, uncertainty as well.

I'm not saying you will get a lot less for you're car but I firmly believe that you won't get as much as what you would of previously got for it. Some people on here reckon this is just a storm in a tea cup and that it's no big deal. I definitely think it's a bigger problem than these make it out to be.

Toyotafanboi

vectra wrote: »

Nothing at all to the fact I have bought another VW car, and as it happens mine falls outside this issue,

No disrespect to the fact that drive a Toyota but in fairness I would feel a lot safer in a car the is not true to Nox emissions than drive something that could kill me when the steering lock up while driving.Can you tell us with all the Toyotas SAFETY recalls that they have had over the years, How much has it devalued their cars and how far down the sales scale are they because of this?

Has it affected consumer confidence as you put it?

As was discussed by JohnBoy, Toyota fitted a faulty part unintentionally and upon realising the part was faulty put their hands straight up, developed a new part asap and recalled all the cars.

VW lied. They knew there was an issue and they were more than happy to keep things quiet to line their own pockets.

There is a huge difference. And realistically if your Toyotas accelerator pedal got stuck you just switch the car off. The VW's are promoting short to medium term lung cancer and not just to driver but anyone near the car. Much much worse.

368100

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

You said it yourself, it's going to happen. We aren't discussing whether it's warranted or not, just whether or not it will happen.

About your comment that Toyota issues and this topic is apples and oranges, are you trying to tell me that deceiving customers causes reputation all damage but poor design and workmanship doesn't??

Brand devaluation might happen, it might not. I'm certainly not going to go into a speculative tizzy about it until I know more, because at this stage it's pure speculation.

368100

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

The VW's are promoting short to medium term lung cancer and not just to driver but anyone near the car. Much much worse.

I think Eastenders are looking for a new dramatic director, just letting you know.

bazz26

So what about Toyota and the sticky accelerator cover up?

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/toyota-pay-12b-hiding-deadly-unintended-acceleration/story?id=22972214

JohnBoy26

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

As was discussed by JohnBoy, Toyota fitted a faulty part unintentionally and upon realising the part was faulty put their hands straight up, developed a new part asap and recalled all the cars.

VW lied. They knew there was an issue and they were more than happy to keep things quiet to line their own pockets.

There is a huge difference. And realistically if your Toyotas accelerator pedal got stuck you just switch the car off. The VW's are promoting short to medium term lung cancer and not just to driver but anyone near the car. Much much worse.

Not only did they lie, they lied for years and only admitted their cars had these cheat devices when they their backs were against the wall.

vectra

I am just yawning at some of the silly replies to my post above.
I am not comparing apples to oranges. I am comparing smoke issues to life threatening faults and to what fallout was involved after.

And also
When did I mention 2015??

I can see a lots of VW haters burying their heads in the sand when all this will blow over and they have to run and find another manufacturer to blast.

JohnBoy26

368100 wrote: »

About your comment that Toyota issues and this topic is apples and oranges, are you trying to tell me that deceiving customers causes reputation all damage but poor design and workmanship doesn't??

Brand devaluation might happen, it might not. I'm certainly not going to go into a speculative tizzy about it until I know more, because at this stage it's pure speculation.

If someone does some work for you and they intend to do a good job but for some reason or another they end up doing a bad job and then they holds their hands up and puts thing right, what would you think of them?

On the other hand if someone intentionally does a bad job but then pretends and lies saying it's a good job and won't admit any wrong doing until backed into a corner, what would you think of them?

Who's reputation would be more intact do you think?

Who would you trust more?

Toyotafanboi

Ah you were comparing to very far removed scenarios in fairness. NoX is a killer too, but it's a silent killer so it doesn't matter; by VW logic.

You may love your VW and that's fine and it probably is a nice car, but the actions of the company are indefencable. They have access to billions of dollars and they can't defend it themselves with a world class legal team and they are losing money hand over fist to the cause, so how an enthusiast fan thinks they can paint the situation as ok or not that big a deal is beyond me.

BoatMad

gctest50 wrote: »

a few lines added to a car insurance application sorts that :

Car insurances dont get to that level of detail , so thats not happening -- ever



As for rolling road, unless you are prepared to find a rolling road that has the equipment ( NOx and C02) and knowledge to regenerate an official NEDC test, you cant determine what has been done to the car.

Your average rolling road operator hasn't a ounce of enough ability to even begin to understand this , never mind test it .

What will happen is that an official house test will certify the revision in the normal way and issue a new compliance cert

Paddy in Ireland with his " engineer" will just look at it and go " doh - OK"

You have no way to establish either baseline measurements, access to official detail results or even a mechanism for some lawyer appointed " paddy engineer" to peer meaningfully under the bonnet and determine anything


Your graphs display an incredible lack ofunderstanding of (a ) what the issue is , (b ) hows its tested and determined and ( c) what VW have to fix

BoatMad

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

Not only did they lie, they lied for years and only admitted their cars had these cheat devices when they their backs were against the wall.

they have admitted the existence of software that they claim detects the FTP cycle of the EPA tests . Thats all


Lets recap for those who have forgotten the salient issues

(a ) At this stage the EPAs claims are " allegations ". No one, other then VW 'admitting" it themselves , has independently established that the software is actually present. what happened is that the ICCT tests showed much higher on-road NOx levels ( which are allowed) , the CARB then ran the EPA test themselves and found neither VW car passed the original EPA tests -> que indigent letters to VW

PS: this issue has been known about in the USA since early 2014 by the way

(b ) Bosch despite inaccurate media reporting have not claimed they supplied the original software

(c ) No one has actually determined if the software actually " works ".. The CARB in the USA , could not even get a software upgraded Gen 2 ( with adBlue) to pass all three EPA tests .

(d ) In Europe, No testing house has come out and said VW games the NEDC test

(e) There is NO emissions limits on Co2 and NOx in real world driving in Europe, the car merely has to pass a very flawed NEDC test ( which was ever designed to establish C02 and Nox levels )

PS: The NCT does not determine C02 and Nox levels


(f ) Allowable NOx are twice that of USA, and Euro 5 is 4 times and there is a compliance factor in place for new cars, allowing significantly greater NOx production then test limits


by all means read the daily mail and engage in hysterical slagging of VW and produce all sorts of wild clams and accusations.

or

perhaps you might read the source documentation and review intelligently what actually has occurred

gctest50

BoatMad wrote: »

....
Paddy in Ireland with his " engineer"will just look at it and go " doh - OK"

You have no way to establish either baseline measurements, access to official detail results or even a mechanism for some lawyer appointed " paddy engineer" to peer meaningfully under the bonnet and determine anything

"peer meaningfully under the bonnet"

paddy engineer

do you think irish engineers ( actual ones ) are inferior in some way ?

.

BoatMad

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

Ah you were comparing to very far removed scenarios in fairness. NoX is a killer too, but it's a silent killer so it doesn't matter; by VW logic.

This is utter bull sh!ittery quite frankly

The ICCT tests of on-road production of NOX emissions , did not identify VW as the greatest producer of NOx, it made the cmains that in general all, cars were producing 7-20 times more NoX then shown in the NEDC test

VW just were the ones that got caught in the USA. ( by a peculiar round about way )


the ICCT were campaigning that the NEDC test was and is clearly unsuited for the purposes of controlling NOx emissions in Europe. This is well known , and why the EU is replacing it with the Worldwide harmonized light vehicles test procedure ( WLTP). which while still a lab test , has a greater correlation with real-road situations

currently european carmakers are arguing for a 1.7 compliance factor for WLTP or EURO 6 Modified tests , so that they can exceed treat limits by nearly a factor of two and still pass. sort of like saying a D in the leaving is actually classed as an A

The fact is ALL diesels are emitting way too much NOx, not just VW

368100

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

If someone does some work for you and they intend to do a good job but for some reason or another they end up doing a bad job and then they holds their hands up and puts thing right, what would you think of them?

On the other hand if someone intentionally does a bad job but then pretends and lies saying it's a good job and won't admit any wrong doing until backed into a corner, what would you think of them?

Who's reputation would be more intact do you think?

Who would you trust more?

You see you're missing my point. Which is, Just to clarify....reputational damage can happen from both dishonesty by a company and/or shoddy design and workmanship.

What I'm trying to get across is that this does not necessarily result in devaluation of a brand. I've already accepted that it may happen but you don't seem be able to accept that it may not, which in my opinion, at this stage is shortsighted and to be honest is coming across as purely scare mongering, the reason behind this, I have no idea.

I for one won't be getting myself worked up thinking I've had a drop, however big or small to the value of my car and I really don't know why two posters who are unlikely to be VW drivers are getting themselves into a tizzy.

It may happen, it may not. Let's see. In the meantime I think I'll sign out of this thread as it has just gone silly.

Edit: some posts have gone silly, other contributors are giving info that's very informative, thanks.