EPA says Volkswagen cheated on emissions with 482,000 diesel cars

mickdw

BoatMad wrote: »

Sorry , lets stay in Europe and analyse your post




indeed, though marketing would suggest a car is a lifestyle purchase primarily , but lets not quibble



err it is clearly still a well built functional car, thats has a bit of tweaked software in it

IN Europe no-one has said the car hasn't passed the Euro 5/6 NEDC tests



The car you bought in europe is exactly as described, nothing has changed . where exactly is this " can of worms "



Indeed in the USA, this may be the case ( as we havent yet seen what VW are going to do with the cars to make them compliant or not )

But in Europe Euro 5 and Euro 6 tests DO TEST for NOx and the engines comply
( even if you argue that NEDC tests are far too lenient, a different situation entirely ) . SO you have a fully compliant car in Europe for which you paid your money

Thats great news. No works to be undertaken in eu so.
Someone in vw is going to be sacked so for implementing an eu campaign where they have apologised to all owner of cars with these engine, stated they have broken trust and are working at full speed to put it right at full cost to vw.
Must have been some office junior on a solo run.
Panic over.

two wheels good

BoatMad wrote: »

.... <snip>...

IN Europe no-one has said the car hasn't passed the Euro 5/6 NEDC tests

But in Europe Euro 5 and Euro 6 tests DO TEST for NOx and the engines comply
( even if you argue that NEDC tests are far too lenient, a different situation entirely ) . SO you have a fully compliant car in Europe for which you paid your money

I don't see how this can be the case. I'm a bit puzzled why it hasn't been a media topic.

The EU certainly has type approval regulation for NOx. See here
These standards are approx 4 times more lenient those in the US.
But the VWs are emitting 10 - 30 times the US permitted NOx levels.
So the EU VWs must be non-compliant too.

Happy to know any flaw in that argument.

mickdw

two wheels good wrote: »

I don't see how this can be the case. I'm a bit puzzled why it hasn't been a media topic.

The EU certainly has type approval regulation for NOx. See here
These standards are approx 4 times more lenient those in the US.
But the VWs are emitting 10 - 30 times the US permitted NOx levels.
So the EU VWs must be non-compliant too.

Happy to know any flaw in that argument.

Under driving conditions, I would have to assume you are correct.
The actual tests are the weak point and I guess that is where the argument arises.

Special Circumstances

Fanboys look away now if you want to keep pretending this is a non-story and it has gone away!!!

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/irish-volkswagen-boss-confirms-some-of-107000-vehicles-here-will-be-recalled-in-2016-as-he-apologises-for-admissions-scandal-34128463.html

"Mr Himmer said they were trying to come up with a solution for the diesel engines involved: 1.2, 1.6 and 2.0 litre diesels.

He said there was different software for each engine. “It is complicated,” he added, revealing that some engines will need a change of injectors as well as software."

Bit weird isn't it.... a piece of software they claim had no effect/benefit/implications/use in europe somehow requires an injector change when it is removed.




Edit, "He said putting things right with the cars will have no impact on CO2".
So, assuming no difference in the volume of diesel burned for specific work done - - the new injectors are changing the spray pattern? Assuming "no impact on CO2" isn't another great big lie, then is spray pattern the only variable they could change that won't affect the volume of diesel injected?

Has there been some quantum leap in injector design in the last 5 years that these new magic injectors will cure what couldn't be cured back then?

Hmmmmm.

vectra

Special Circumstances wrote: »

Fanboys look away now if you want to keep pretending this is a non-story and it has gone away!!!

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/irish-volkswagen-boss-confirms-some-of-107000-vehicles-here-will-be-recalled-in-2016-as-he-apologises-for-admissions-scandal-34128463.html

"Mr Himmer said they were trying to come up with a solution for the diesel engines involved: 1.2, 1.6 and 2.0 litre diesels.

He said there was different software for each engine. “It is complicated,” he added, revealing that some engines will need a change of injectors as well as software."

Bit weird isn't it.... a piece of software they claim had no effect/benefit/implications/use in europe somehow requires an injector change when it is removed.

Who cares.
Free injector upgrade for some fellow with 100k on his engine can't be a bad thing. :P

mickdw

vectra wrote: »

Who cares.
Free injector upgrade for some fellow with 100k on his engine can't be a bad thing. :P

On the other hand, if it's an injector downgrade!

Special Circumstances

mickdw wrote: »

On the other hand, if it's an injector downgrade!

I'm sure the only way to improve the NOX situation is more power. I mean obviously VW are just such a responsible company that the reason they didn't do this in the past is because they were afraid people would get a little too excited. Injector downgrade, that's unpossible! :pac:

Gazzmonkey

I wonder if motorists are now trying to avoid driving behind VAG diesels since we now know they emit much more NOx :pac:

jimgoose

Gazzmonkey wrote: »

I wonder if motorists are now trying to avoid driving behind VAG diesels since we now know they emit much more NOx :pac:

I've always done that - they smell bloody vile! :pac:

BoatMad

two wheels good wrote: »

Not true.
Based on the interview I heard with one of the two US boffins instrumental in the testing, VW staff prevaricated and evaded during a series of meeting before eventually coming clean.

Also, curious how emissions controls software wasn't declared in the 2016 models either - as is required by the type approval regulations. I'm not claiming this software was necessarily test cheating software. Just that "honest and open" is not VW's way. I hope that will change.

so the 400,000 unit recall in 2014 in the US was " prevarication "

Gazzmonkey

jimgoose wrote: »

I've always done that - they smell bloody vile! :pac:

lol, so if you see a VW, Audi, Seat or Skoda TDI you overtake?

I do that myself but only if I can see the soot blasting out, especially old diesel vans.

Toyotafanboi

Gazzmonkey wrote: »

lol, so if you see a VW, Audi, Seat or Skoda TDI you overtake?

I do that myself but only if I can see the soot blasting out, especially old diesel vans.

Generally it's the TDi overtaking me. I don't think i've ever seen a TDi under the speed limit except for when they are sitting on my rear bumper.

BoatMad

Edit, "He said putting things right with the cars will have no impact on CO2".
So, assuming no difference in the volume of diesel burned for specific work done - - the new injectors are changing the spray pattern? Assuming "no impact on CO2" isn't another great big lie, then is spray pattern the only variable they could change that won't affect the volume of diesel injected?

Has there been some quantum leap in injector design in the last 5 years that these new magic injectors will cure what couldn't be cured back then?

Hmmmmm.

I dont believe the injector comment, it was first aired at the house of commons select committee investigation by VAG UK, and is being parroted here by his Irish counter part

VW have not announced officially any details of they nature of the recall and what they are actually fixing.

BoatMad

for those of you actually interested in the reality in Europe

I recommend you read through this ICCT summary document http://www.theicct.org/sites/default/files/publications/ICCT_NOx-control-tech_revised%2009152015.pdf

These tests were heavily populated with BMWs as they have the largest overall sector of the EU diesels market, ONE VW was tested ( 2013 with SCR , i.e. Urea , The report covers CO , CO2 and NOx on 32 euro 6 compliant cars

The cars were tested on NEDC and the proposed WLTC testing scheme

I'll copy some salient points , note these relate to tests comparing to NEDC or WLTC) The WLTC tests were used to try and more correctly model real world driving . The tests were performed on a dyno, and sponsored by Germany biggest car club Allgemeiner Deutscher Automobil-Club

CO

all vehicles managed to stay safely below the regulated limit of 500 mg of CO per km (CF=1; marked with a red line in Figure 7) over both cycles.

CO2
the Co2 ratios were consistently around 1.25—i.e., Co2 emissions were, on average, 25% higher than the corresponding type-approval values. sCr-equipped vehicles seem to pay a small penalty (an average Co2 ratio of 1.32) during the NEDC tests that is not apparent from WLtC measurements, and which may be related to the NEDC cold start.

some on road CO was within limits for ALL ( yes including VW) for C0, and all were slightly higher on average ¼ times higher on road for C02

NOX

The results by NOX control technology indicate that most SCR- and EGR-equipped vehicles performed relatively well over the WLTC, but their average CF (1.6 for SCR and 1.9 for EGR) is still higher than the average CF over the NEDC (0.6 for SCR and 0.8 for EGR). LNT-equipped vehicles have the best performance over the NEDC (0.4) but the worst over the WLTC (2.9). Also, three vehicles equipped with LNTs (Vehicles 18, 6, and 24) had extreme NOX emission levels (1167 mg/km, 708 mg/km and 553 mg/km of NOX, respectively). This is a clear indication that, in some cases, LNT technology is tuned to deliver good performance on the certification test, but not necessarily under the more transient, real-world conditions represented by the WLTC.

Note the worst performers was not the VW , it was cars with lean Nox traps technology , the VW having adblue


Figure 9 (bottom) shows the results by vehicle manufacturer. The 13 vehicles from BMW performed especially well over the NEDC (NOX CF of 0.2) and, despite a fivefold increase in emissions, were still somewhat better than average over the WLTC. The single Volkswagen vehicle that was tested by ADAC also had a low CF over both the NEDC and WLTC. Mercedes-Benz vehicles also had a relatively good average performance. Three single vehicles from Volvo, Renault, and Hyundai had very high noX emissions over the WLtC (CFs of 14.6, 8.8, and 6.9, respectively). interestingly, these vehicles were just on the edge of compliance under NEDC testing (CFs of 0.9, 1.0, and 0.9). These vehicles would very likely be unfit to pass the RDE test, and would thus be left out of the eu market (unless they had their noX control systems recalibrated) if RDE type-approval criteria applied today.

Read this last paragraph carefully , note Volvo, Renault, and Hyunda ( RDE , Real Drivng Emissions )

the results of Figure 9 point to a serious compliance problem for NOX emissions from current Euro 6 diesel passenger cars. it should be noted that noX emissions from diesel cars are a unique case in this sense, and that no other pollutant from either gasoline or diesel passenger cars (with the possible exception of particle number emissions from GDi vehicles) presents a comparable challenge regarding its control.

and in a summary paragraph

in this paper, we focused mostly on NOX because the emissions of this pollutant do not seem to be properly controlled outside of the artificial conditions of neDC testing. the experimental results analyzed in this paper add to the overwhelming amount of empirical evidence that NOX emissions from diesel passenger cars are not properly controlled under the current, NEDC-based testing framework.

but hey VW( two legs ) = bad , all the rest ( four legs ) = good as far the media is concerned

Special Circumstances

So the BMWs and VWs are pretty OK in Europe you say. But on the ship to the US some magical process happens that puts huge differences in how the BMWs and VWs perform there.

My my, this really is a conundrum. Who is altering the VWs to make them less compliant on the way to the states? Curiouser and curiouser!
And why two legs, not 3 6 or 8? What is this all about?

BoatMad

Special Circumstances wrote: »

So the BMWs and VWs are pretty OK in Europe you say. But on the ship to the US some magical process happens that puts huge differences in how the BMWs and VWs perform there.

My my, this really is a conundrum. Who is altering the VWs to make them less compliant on the way to the states? Curiouser and curiouser!
And why two legs, not 3 6 or 8? What is this all about?

the last first ( you have not read animal farm then , by G Orwell, remember him !)


as for "`VWs are pretty OK in Europe you say", not me, the ICCT, the people that discovered the US scandal, they say

The states is different as the percentage of SCR fitted cars is much higher , almost opposite to Europe and the limits are much tighter

VW aren't " less" compliant in the US, no Euro6 compliant diesel would be also compliant in the USA


The issue in the USA is simple

Where VW US market diesels , ever compliant with Tier 2 Bin 5 EPA regulations? The evidence especially in the Gen 1 , lean nox trap , vehicles was they were NEVER compliant

VW didn't use defeat software ( because in no situation have the cars been shown to pass the full suite of EPA tests ) , it may have existed or it may not , it hasn't been proven to actually make the cars Tier 2 compliant as far as i can see . VW have to date only admitted that its exists, not that it actually got used to pass compliance

VW in fact just lied on the original conformance , thats the scandal

howver the nonsense they ( VW) are being subjected to in Europe , which has the ridiculous ( i.e. low standards) NEDC test, is just that, nonsense. Th emedia ire should be directed at the EU and its testing regime not VW

5W30

IT DOES NOT MATTER IF NOx IS NOT MEASURED IN EUROPE!

Just because we don't measure it doesn't mean we should ignore it! Not everything the leaders in Europe are doing is gospel, perhaps they SHOULD measure it. Maybe they don't measure it because corrupt thieving scum manufacturers didn't exist before or at least we didn't know about them?

Sure the NCT don't check tyre compound hardness. Doesn't mean it's safe to drive with plastic-hard tyres!!!

Special Circumstances

Seriously, would you ever put other guy back onto manning this account? The concise guy, please.

BoatMad wrote: »

VW aren't " less" compliant in the US, no Euro6 compliant diesel would be also compliant in the USA

The figures that started this whole thing put the VWs an order of magnitude away from the other vehicles in the tests. I don't see how some of the other vehicles not being compliant makes the VWs more compliant... but hey

http://www.dieselforum.org/diesel-drivers/clean-diesel-vehicles-available-in-the-u-s

Shows BMW and Merc diesels for sale in the US. Obviously all the VWs are not. So you're saying one of two things here:
1)None of these BMW Merc engines are Euro6 compliant. Yet they are available for sale in the US - suggesting that they are cleaner than Euro6 regulations.
2)They are just as bad as the VWs, but nobody has copped it yet?

BoatMad

5W30 wrote: »

IT DOES NOT MATTER IF NOx IS NOT MEASURED IN EUROPE!

Just because we don't measure it doesn't mean we should ignore it! Not everything the leaders in Europe are doing is gospel, perhaps they SHOULD measure it. Maybe they don't measure it because corrupt thieving scum manufacturers didn't exist before or at least we didn't know about them?

Sure the NCT don't check tyre compound hardness. Doesn't mean it's safe to drive with plastic-hard tyres!!!

it does matter to people making cars that have to pass compliance tests. WHAt cars "should" emit is a moral argument not a legal one

5W30

BoatMad wrote: »

it does matter to people making cars that have to pass compliance tests. WHAt cars "should" emit is a moral argument not a legal one

And that's why Volkswagen are recalling cars and apologising in Europe even though the cars are perfectly legal here I guess right? You're logic is non-existent.

BoatMad

Special Circumstances wrote: »

The figures that started this whole thing put the VWs an order of magnitude away from the other vehicles in the tests. I don't see how some of the other vehicles not being compliant makes the VWs more compliant... but hey

no they didn't , ICCT on road tests tested 3 cars two VWs and a BMW. what they found was that VW NOX on road tests in the USA were similar to on road European tests. ( the differ EPA versus EU standards make that output twice as bad in the USA, but similar actual levels of NOx)

The summary document I referenced, merely shows that as far as the tests go ( because in law you have to IGNORE on road testing) , VW isn't the worse

http://www.dieselforum.org/diesel-drivers/clean-diesel-vehicles-available-in-the-u-s

Shows BMW and Merc diesels for sale in the US. Obviously all the VWs are not. So you're saying one of two things here:
1)None of these BMW Merc engines are Euro6 compliant. Yet they are available for sale in the US - suggesting that they are cleaner than Euro6 regulations.
2)They are just as bad as the VWs, but nobody has copped it yet?

(1 ) All cars in Europe that are meant to be Euro 6 compliant are so . No-one has shown they are not , The issue is that VW which has the lions share of the US passenger car market , did not have US compliant cars at any stage ( my contention )

Seriously, would you ever put other guy back onto manning this account? The concise guy, please.

Since you dont want to read the underlying source documents let me recap my views ( in short sentences )


(1 ) The issue is VW US Diesel cars, not ones in Europe.

(2 ) It looks like the VW cars in the US were never compliant , software or not, thats the scandal

(3 ) The " hype " in Europe is forcing VW to perform recalls on cars that pass the NEDC test . I suspect all they will do is a ECU reflash at the end of the day .

(4 ) making LNT Gen1 ( <2014) US cars compliant may be impossible, resulting in a buyback, SCR, Gen2 (2014+) , could be made compliant with a software fix, with a impact on performance and fuel economy

Special Circumstances

5W30 wrote: »

And that's why Volkswagen are recalling cars and apologising in Europe even though the cars are perfectly legal here I guess right? You're logic is non-existent.

I don't think there is any logic at work there, only a concerted effort to muddy the waters. Say one thing one day, then contradict that the next day.

It really doesn't look to me as if the one person has been posting from that account throughout the thread.
One day "no one has even alleged that VW are not compliant in Europe", the next "My theory is that the defeat software in the US is a red herring and the real skeleton in the closet is fiddled EU testing".

BoatMad

5W30 wrote: »

And that's why Volkswagen are recalling cars and apologising in Europe even though the cars are perfectly legal here I guess right? You're logic is non-existent.

so can you point to the official statements saving VW cars failed NEDC compliance testing .......

Im not aware of a single test house that has declared VW gamed the NEDC,

( why should they, NEDC is easy to pass)

VW are reacting to a " moral " storm , because they admitted in the USA, to the existence of software, ( which no-one has proved actually does anything ) and then confirmed that software was in 11 million cars elsewhere. Que lots of " moral " indignation and recalls, yet VW have not stated what they are fixing

vectra

mickdw wrote: »

On the other hand, if it's an injector downgrade!

It is a very vague word.

Special Circumstances

BoatMad wrote: »

I would discount any newspaper report of details like that.

Dealers can't flash ECUs. So it's a swap. Since the software does nothing when the car is running , I can't see why any performance issue will change. To my knowledge Europe , unlike the US will not require VW to recertify the changes , nor fix the issue with excessive real world emissions ( which VW do not legally have to fix )

BoatMad wrote: »

...
(3 ) The " hype " in Europe is forcing VW to perform recalls on cars that pass the NEDC test . I suspect all they will do is a ECU reflash at the end of the day .
...

Get yer story straight guys, ye are all over the shop.

The responses now are just obviously a wall of text to muddy the waters, with no regard for consistency.

BoatMad

Special Circumstances wrote: »

I don't think there is any logic at work there, only a concerted effort to muddy the waters. Say one thing one day, then contradict that the next day.

It really doesn't look to me as if the one person has been posting from that account throughout the thread.
One day "no one has even alleged that VW are not compliant in Europe", the next "My theory is that the defeat software in the US is a red herring and the real skeleton in the closet is fiddled EU testing".

ah for gods, sake , read the underlying documents and stop looking at newspaper sites for your answers, try and apply engineering to the documents rather then " hang the negro" analysis

Fact ( please disprove) No official NEDC testing house has stated that VW gamed the tests

Fact ( please disprove )
CARB stated that in its tests that neither of the Gen1 or Gen 2 VW models passed the full EPA test suite. They then asked VW why ?


Logical conclusion

Defeat software isn't making the car pass USA compliance tests , hence software is a red herring

BoatMad

Special Circumstances wrote: »

Get yer story straight guys, ye are all over the shop.

The responses now are just obviously a wall of text to muddy the waters, with no regard for consistency.

a software re=flash is what VW will so, whether that results in a dealer ECU swap or not is up to VW and the dealers, my comments are entirely consistent

he responses now are just obviously a wall of text to muddy the waters, with no regard for consistency

I have said the same thing repeatedly throughout the thread, others simply cant be bothered to read the source documents and form an educated opinion, merely believing what journalists are writing

what I have said
a. VW cars in the US couldnt pass the full suite of EPA tests add performed by the CARB, defeat software or not

b. Where these cars ever compliant, logic would suggest they were not, hence VW falsified the original compliance tests

c. No=one has officially stated VW has gamed the Euro 6 tests , why should they ,, they easily comply

d. if so , in Europe, just exactly what is VW fixing explain that to me ?

BoatMad

for the slow learners lets break it down into a simple set of questions


first one

(a ) is there specific evidence that the defeat software actually made the VW diesels compliant in the USA ?

BoatMad

additional information

The body examining the practices of the car industry following the Volkswagen emissions scandal has been accused of a major conflict of interest after it emerged that nearly three quarters of its funding comes from the companies it is investigating.

According to its latest annual report, the Vehicle Certification Agency receives 69.91 per cent of its income from car manufacturers, who pay it to certify that their vehicles are meeting emissions and safety standards.

The transport secretary, Patrick McLoughlin, said last month that the VCA, which also receives government funding, would be responsible for re-running tests on a variety of makes of diesel cars and investigating their real-world emissions.

we have not seen any of these tests as yet

gctest50

.
Fiat Italy are offering 1500 extra in a Volkswagen-clunkers deal

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-10-05/fiat-chrysler-offers-1-700-cash-for-volkswagen-clunkers

Fiat Chrysler Automobiles NV is seeking to lure customers away from Volkswagen AG with rebates of as much as 1,500 euros ($1,700) in Italy amid the German competitor’s woes over cheating on emissions tests.

Fiat Chrysler is offering the discounts on top of other incentives on the trade-in of a car from any of Volkswagen’s brands, according to an internal memo published in Il Giornale daily that was confirmed by dealers.

.